Gonzaga prospects (Clarke, Hachimura, Tillie, Norvell)

[doordoor123]

I really don’t like Norvell as a defender. Good screens kill him, he’s just so skinny. I also don’t think he’s a very diverse scorer, he’s mostly a shooter. I like that he can get hot, shoot and I like that he’s athletic, has a good first step. Everything else just seems off to me.

Killian Tillie continues to be massively underrated. He’s going to be a steal in the draft.

[clyde21]

just to reiterate how much of a vertical freak Clarke is...that last angle:

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[clyde21]

as I said in the '19 class thread, I've cooled off on Hach a bit. not that I don't think he can be a first rounder, but he didn't quite develop in some areas like I had hoped. for a 'tweener', he's not a great defender, not a good outside shooter, and doesn't really create offensive from the inside-out like he should.

he has some good qualities to build on though and seems like a hard worker, so i wouldn't bet against him becoming part of a rotation at the next level. but Clarke (defense), Tillie and Norvell Jr. (shooting) have qualities that you know translate to the next level, and might be safe picks if you know exactly the role you want these guys to fill.

[PoundTown]

Looks to me like Clarke’s ceiling is Thad Young with better rim protection.

[Ruzious]

I like all 3 of the forwards about equally - depending on need - though I'm most interested in Clarke. Rui impresses me in that he's a true go-to guy on offense - he's a hard-working pure scorer and will likely develop a good 3 ball in the NBA because players like him figure out ways to score. He's also gotten a lot stronger in college - he's probably the strongest of the 3. His rebounding numbers aren't good for a PF, but he's been on a team that's rebounded well - so I think his stats there might be misleading. I think his floor is Jabari Parker - noting that while defense is going to be an issue for him - he can't be any worse defensively than Parker's been.

[No-Man]

Parker is way way more skilled, that's a bad comp, Jabari is terrible now after two ACLs but he would have been an All star in terms of talent and play, he was awesome on offense his last year before the 2nd knee injury

Putting that as Rui's floor is ridiculous

[Ruzious]

Parker is way way more skilled, that's a bad comp, Jabari is terrible now after two ACLs but he would have been an All star in terms of talent and play, he was awesome on offense his last year before the 2nd knee injury

Putting that as Rui's floor is ridiculous

Parker was always way overrated and a relatively inefficient volume scorer. He was also one of the most clueless defenders I've ever seen. Not to mention that his weight was always an issue - making him too fat to play the 3 effectively. There might be substance to your comments if he had gotten in better shape. But as far as skills - he was a pure scorer at Duke, but he wasn't much of a 3 point shooter (and never really was in the NBA) and averaged about 1 assist a game. His one big offensive season in the NBA before the second ACL was when he finally got himself into shape.

[No-Man]

Parker is way way more skilled, that's a bad comp, Jabari is terrible now after two ACLs but he would have been an All star in terms of talent and play, he was awesome on offense his last year before the 2nd knee injury

Putting that as Rui's floor is ridiculous

Parker was always way overrated and a relatively inefficient volume scorer. He was also one of the most clueless defenders I've ever seen. Not to mention that his weight was always an issue - making him too fat to play the 3 effectively. There might be substance to your comments if he had gotten in better shape. But as far as skills - he was a pure scorer at Duke, but he wasn't much of a 3 point shooter (and never really was in the NBA) and averaged about 1 assist a game. His one big offensive season in the NBA before the second ACL was when he finally got himself into shape.

Sure, but Jabari was way more skilled than Rui, that's just facts, I don't like Parker and I think he was overrated and is a hard guy to build with due to his defensive short-comings but I am not going to negate his talent, he was a better functional athlete than Rui, has absurd handles and explosiveness for his size (even if he was overweight at times) and just had a better feel for scoring the ball than Hachimura, in general

I am not saying that Parker is a great player or anything, but if you eliminate the injuries he would have been a +20ppg scorer for years at a solid efficiency, he was above-avg there in his sole year that he was 100% (56 TS% for his volume and type of shots it's good) before then 2nd injury, and likely would've been an All Star

Saying that that player is Rui's floor makes no sense to me, if you mean that current Parker after 2 ACLs is his floor that's a different convo

[Ruzious]

Parker is way way more skilled, that's a bad comp, Jabari is terrible now after two ACLs but he would have been an All star in terms of talent and play, he was awesome on offense his last year before the 2nd knee injury

Putting that as Rui's floor is ridiculous

Parker was always way overrated and a relatively inefficient volume scorer. He was also one of the most clueless defenders I've ever seen. Not to mention that his weight was always an issue - making him too fat to play the 3 effectively. There might be substance to your comments if he had gotten in better shape. But as far as skills - he was a pure scorer at Duke, but he wasn't much of a 3 point shooter (and never really was in the NBA) and averaged about 1 assist a game. His one big offensive season in the NBA before the second ACL was when he finally got himself into shape.

Sure, but Jabari was way more skilled than Rui, that's just facts, I don't like Parker and I think he was overrated and is a hard guy to build with due to his defensive short-comings but I am not going to negate his talent, he was a better functional athlete than Rui, has absurd handles and explosiveness for his size (even if he was overweight at times) and just had a better feel for scoring the ball than Hachimura, in general

I am not saying that Parker is a great player or anything, but if you eliminate the injuries he would have been a +20ppg scorer for years at a solid efficiency, he was above-avg there in his sole year that he was 100% (56 TS% for his volume and type of shots it's good) before then 2nd injury, and likely would've been an All Star

Saying that that player is Rui's floor makes no sense to me, if you mean that current Parker after 2 ACLs is his floor that's a different convo

Yeah, but that year was the only one he was in shape, and that's part of the package of what he was as a player. If being in shape didn't matter, then Michael Sweetney could have been a star. And Parker wasn't in shape at Duke - so it didn't make sense to assume he'd be in shape in the NBA. I mean... I'm not saying anything different from what I said before my Bucks drafted him. It was similar to when Okafor was ridiculously overrated at Duke because he had "great skills". Parker was nothing but a 1 dimentional volume scorer. He showed no ability to set up teammates at all at Duke, he really was not an athletic player then because he was out of shape, he didn't have much of a 3 piont shot, and he was incapable of defending even a little bit. That's not an all-star.

[No-Man]

Oh, so you are comparing them for what Parker was at Duke as a prospect? not for what Parker career has been or could've been in the pros (with or without injuries)?

I see, I missed the point (although you referring to it as a floor made me think of pro-Jabari not Duke-Jabari) I guess that makes a bit more sense but still doesn't for me, I mean Parker might've been out of shape at Duke but he had legit on-ball ability to create, was limited as a passer (but that team was a mess with no PG and basically Jabari and Hood doing everything) and was much more dynamic in terms of his scoring package and basketball athleticism (even if he was fat or whatever) than Rui has ever been

Rui has started to do more stuff as a go-to guy but he stills has the scoring tools of a big, Jabari has always had legit top handles for a 6-9 guy

Also, big difference in terms of upside, Parker was 19.3 by his draft and Rui is going to be 21.4, over 2 years older

[doordoor123]

The big difference between Parker and Rui are creation off the dribble, athleticism and Parker just has the ability to put the ball in the bucket. Rui will have big games in the NBA, but he’ll be really inconsistent. He’s a matchup kind of player that will play well against certain matchups and bad against others. He doesn’t have the creation ability off the dribble to offset that and doesn’t have a great jumper or athleticism to make defenders worried. One of his greatest attributes is his speed and size, in the NBA he should be trying to to draw fouls in the paint a lot by slashing.

[NBA Fan 1234]

The big difference between Parker and Rui are creation off the dribble, athleticism and Parker just has the ability to put the ball in the bucket. Rui will have big games in the NBA, but he’ll be really inconsistent. He’s a matchup kind of player that will play well against certain matchups and bad against others. He doesn’t have the creation ability off the dribble to offset that and doesn’t have a great jumper or athleticism to make defenders worried. One of his greatest attributes is his speed and size, in the NBA he should be trying to to draw fouls in the paint a lot by slashing.

Agreed. Jabari's first step and footwork were both really good. Rui doesn't have that - he's way more mechanical and strength reliant, IMO.

In terms of impact (poor defense, little passing, negative value impact), I can see Rui being similar (unless he really progresses, which I guess could happen)?

[doordoor123]

The big difference between Parker and Rui are creation off the dribble, athleticism and Parker just has the ability to put the ball in the bucket. Rui will have big games in the NBA, but he’ll be really inconsistent. He’s a matchup kind of player that will play well against certain matchups and bad against others. He doesn’t have the creation ability off the dribble to offset that and doesn’t have a great jumper or athleticism to make defenders worried. One of his greatest attributes is his speed and size, in the NBA he should be trying to to draw fouls in the paint a lot by slashing.

Agreed. Jabari's first step and footwork were both really good. Rui doesn't have that - he's way more mechanical and strength reliant, IMO.

In terms of impact (poor defense, little passing, negative value impact), I can see Rui being similar (unless he really progresses, which I guess could happen)?

The NBA is also different than college in terms of defending and passing. I wouldn’t declare him a lost cause there. Rui will be forced into a smaller role where he’ll have to play within the flow of an offense. College game is really compact in the paint with the shorter 3 point line. With more space and a smaller role he might be an okay passer. Same for defense, but I also think his defense might get better. Gonzaga is making Rui the number 1 scoring option and he has to work hard to get buckets because he isn’t a shooter. It takes a lot of energy to play the way he does on offense and because he’s using that energy on that side of the ball he doesn’t have the energy to play defense. But I guess hes been bad on defense for the past three seasons.

[clyde21]

i really wouldn't be on Rui staying stagnant as a player in the pros. by all accounts he's an extremely hard worker with a good head on his shoulders, and has a good baseline of talent to work with.

I think he's gotten a bit overrated, but I think u can do A LOT worse than a Rui type prospect at the end of the first. Seems like a really good pick for Houston or the Milwaukee.

[CP War Hawks]

Parker was always way overrated and a relatively inefficient volume scorer. He was also one of the most clueless defenders I've ever seen. Not to mention that his weight was always an issue - making him too fat to play the 3 effectively. There might be substance to your comments if he had gotten in better shape. But as far as skills - he was a pure scorer at Duke, but he wasn't much of a 3 point shooter (and never really was in the NBA) and averaged about 1 assist a game. His one big offensive season in the NBA before the second ACL was when he finally got himself into shape.

Sure, but Jabari was way more skilled than Rui, that's just facts, I don't like Parker and I think he was overrated and is a hard guy to build with due to his defensive short-comings but I am not going to negate his talent, he was a better functional athlete than Rui, has absurd handles and explosiveness for his size (even if he was overweight at times) and just had a better feel for scoring the ball than Hachimura, in general

I am not saying that Parker is a great player or anything, but if you eliminate the injuries he would have been a +20ppg scorer for years at a solid efficiency, he was above-avg there in his sole year that he was 100% (56 TS% for his volume and type of shots it's good) before then 2nd injury, and likely would've been an All Star

Saying that that player is Rui's floor makes no sense to me, if you mean that current Parker after 2 ACLs is his floor that's a different convo

Yeah, but that year was the only one he was in shape, and that's part of the package of what he was as a player. If being in shape didn't matter, then Michael Sweetney could have been a star. And Parker wasn't in shape at Duke - so it didn't make sense to assume he'd be in shape in the NBA. I mean... I'm not saying anything different from what I said before my Bucks drafted him. It was similar to when Okafor was ridiculously overrated at Duke because he had "great skills". Parker was nothing but a 1 dimentional volume scorer. He showed no ability to set up teammates at all at Duke, he really was not an athletic player then because he was out of shape, he didn't have much of a 3 piont shot, and he was incapable of defending even a little bit. That's not an all-star.

I've always compared JP to Big Dog. As a Bucks fan, you had a front row seat for the two. Both produced good stats across the board, but they just did not impact winning at all.

I don't understand why people are down on Rui. It's basically the same thing with John Collins. The things Rui does at Gonzaga is the same he will do in the league more or less. They don't really have guards that put him in position for easy scores.

I'd be ecstatic to land him with the Dallas pick. He's one of those guys that will have top 5 overall measurables at the combine and impress a few lotto teams in workouts.

[Ettorefm]

Hachimura is..just mediocre. He's going to be 22 by the time of the draft, and he already looks like a role player playing in the NCAA, let alone the NBA.

Great story, and nobody cared about him two years ago, so that shows he's a hard worker, but calm down. Some websites have him as a top 10 prospect, come on..I know this draft is not that deep, but top 10?

[No-Man]

I don't really understand the Collins-Rui comp other than both posting up a whole lot in college

[Hoopz Afrik]

Hachimura is..just mediocre. He's going to be 22 by the time of the draft, and he already looks like a role player playing in the NCAA, let alone the NBA.

Great story, and nobody cared about him two years ago, so that shows he's a hard worker, but calm down. Some websites have him as a top 10 prospect, come on..I know this draft is not that deep, but top 10?

Role players don't average 20 ppg in college. Him being 22 doesn't mean much. He got a late introduction to the sport and has shown a lot of tangible growth since arriving at Gonzaga. I know most folks are down on him but I'm still on the Hachimura train. I can't think of 10 better prospects in this draft.

[Ettorefm]

Role players don't average 20 ppg in college

Yeah. Yeah, they do. That's exactly what role players do in the NCAA when they stay 2+ years. I can name at least 15 junior/senior players who scored 18-21 ppg and became role players in the NBA. That's entirely what's expected of guys who aren't interesting enough to be drafted high in their first 2 years in college.

The blueprint is - every year they score more and better, and in their 3rd or 4th year in college they end up scoring a lot (close to 20ppg or even more) and yet teams don't draft those guys in the lottery because they know what they're getting - a role player. Scoring 20 means nothing when you're 21 playing against younger guys and needed 3 or 4 years to develop into that.

What do you think NBA role players averaged in college? Specially the ones who already entered the NBA as role players and not freshman prospects?

Nobody scores 8 ppg for 3 years and then ends up being a 7th man in the NBA. Those guys destroyed competition and yet they're nobody in the NBA. Kyle Korver averaged 18ppg on amazing splits as a senior, and besides that year he was an All-star because of Atlanta's success, he's a career-long ELITE role player. Easily scoring in the NCAA, with all his physical limitations.

Kyle Singler scored 17ppg without a sweat. Jodie Meeks scored 23.8 ppg in his junior year. Wayne Ellington scored 16ppg in his 3rd year. Doug McDermott scored 27 ppg in his senior year. Jimmer, 29ppg. Seth Curry 17.5 as a junior, and he's barely in the rotation right now.

Want more? Kaminsky, 19ppg senior year. Wes Johnson, 16ppg junior, Olynyk, 18ppg junior..the list goes on and on. It's not that difficult to score for NBA role players. That's the reason they have a role in the league.

Also, go look at the 30 highest scoring seasons in the NCAA in the last 20 years. 25 of them are from practically nobodies. Only 5 are from famous and elite players.

[clyde21]

what Rui should've done was come out last year. he really didn't have much to gain by coming back to Gonzaga for a 3rd year, tbh. his stock has dropped quite a bit in my eyes considering he still leaves a lot to be desired as a 3pt shooter and just overall creator.

but he's anything but a role player at Gonzaga, come on. He's their go-to scorer. He's avging 27.5ppg and 8rpg per 40 on 7.6 BPM, 28 PER, 64.5 TS% and a +32.5 Net Rating. and it's not like he's this productive just b/c he's a jr, he's been productive his entire career there.

like I said, the people projecting him in the top10 are crazy but he's perfectly legitimate pick in the 20s and I think a lot of teams will really be enamored with him in that range if they're looking for someone to log minutes right away.