2018-2019 OKC Thunder Regular Season Pt 1: A Renewed Hope

[slick_watts]

Russ/shroeder would have a field day playing against adams, itd be a layup line.

Yea I'm sure they wouldn't blow right by him when he pulled the adams switch at the three point line and just put up a hand a prayed. Russ could finish on him at will at the rim, the guy is not much of a factor bothering shots there, since he can barely move or jump. Very slow off his feet compared to other modern day centers. I'd take javale mcgee for him tbh.

keep digging.

[ThunderBolt]

Even berry knows it’s bad...

https://newsok.com/article/5620666/thunder-slump-is-the-worst-in-okc-history

[hardenASG13]

Yea I'm sure they wouldn't blow right by him when he pulled the adams switch at the three point line and just put up a hand a prayed. Russ could finish on him at will at the rim, the guy is not much of a factor bothering shots there, since he can barely move or jump. Very slow off his feet compared to other modern day centers. I'd take javale mcgee for him tbh.

keep digging.

Don't think they need a rim protector with their gambling style defense? McGee can catch lobs and hit a middle hook shot, too. He also makes alot less than 100 million. It's alot to pay for a slow footed center, who can't shoot, on a team without shooters, that gambles all the time on D. That offensive rebounding and screen setting though......

[SecondTake]

Yea I'm sure they wouldn't blow right by him when he pulled the adams switch at the three point line and just put up a hand a prayed. Russ could finish on him at will at the rim, the guy is not much of a factor bothering shots there, since he can barely move or jump. Very slow off his feet compared to other modern day centers. I'd take javale mcgee for him tbh.

keep digging.

Don't think they need a rim protector with their gambling style defense? McGee can catch lobs and hit a middle hook shot, too. He also makes alot less than 100 million. It's alot to pay for a slow footed center, who can't shoot, on a team without shooters, that gambles all the time on D. That offensive rebounding and screen setting though......

Adams isn't the problem, it's Donovans stupid scheme thats the problem. His scheme seems to work with the starters who actually know how to defend, but as soon as the 2nd unit comes on it falls apart. He really should have a separate defensive scheme for the second unit that does not entail the big showing on the P&R, because that second unit cant help rotate to save its life. They're always out of position and constantly being beat, leaving the big on an island.

[slick_watts]

Yea I'm sure they wouldn't blow right by him when he pulled the adams switch at the three point line and just put up a hand a prayed. Russ could finish on him at will at the rim, the guy is not much of a factor bothering shots there, since he can barely move or jump. Very slow off his feet compared to other modern day centers. I'd take javale mcgee for him tbh.

keep digging.

Don't think they need a rim protector with their gambling style defense? McGee can catch lobs and hit a middle hook shot, too. He also makes alot less than 100 million. It's alot to pay for a slow footed center, who can't shoot, on a team without shooters, that gambles all the time on D. That offensive rebounding and screen setting though......

is this serious? are we doing mcgee v. adams? really?

[hardenASG13]

keep digging.

Don't think they need a rim protector with their gambling style defense? McGee can catch lobs and hit a middle hook shot, too. He also makes alot less than 100 million. It's alot to pay for a slow footed center, who can't shoot, on a team without shooters, that gambles all the time on D. That offensive rebounding and screen setting though......

is this serious? are we doing mcgee v. adams? really?

Wasnt really trying to, more of a statement to show what a mistake it was to pay so much to adams. An argument could be made though.

Adams is nice, but at his salary kills your chances. Westbrook creates alot of his offense (as he would with mcgee, who's basically been bounced around for nothing, especially in the lob game). Adams is a borderline top 10 center offensively, and is probably slower than average for a starter defensively and very below average as a shot blocker and rim protector.

You seem to LOVE stats, and defense. Do you think the thunders D would improve with an elite shot blocker/rim protector? I'm talking okc specifically. Having a guy that can make up ground inside, and consistently alter and block shots? It seems pretty important considering how easily some of their guards are beat off the dribble or simple screening action. Does adams even alter many shots at the rim? Let's compare the 2:

Blocks per game: mcgee: 2.28 (4th in the league)
Adams: .77 (55th in the league)

That's just the start. Of course adams, despite averaging just 1/3 of the blocks per game as mcgee, plays alot more minutes. Looking at blocks per 48 minutes, it predictably gets worse.

Blocks per 48: mcgee 4.87, 2nd in the league
Adams 1.08, tied for 86

predictably, adams plummets, behind players such as David bertans, jalen brown, Tyson chandler, and Marvin gortat. Mcgee moves up a few spots as he is as about as good as it gets in that department.

You might argue adams is the smarter defender, and that mcgee would just foul out, but looking at blocks per foul:
Mcgee: .93 (3rd)
Adams: .29 (t70)

So mcgee actually is more efficient with fouls inside, by alot, as well. He deters alot more drives and changes significantly more shots than adams, and arguing otherwise means you haven't watched mcgee play. For what you lose offensively in adams, for this particular team, and gain defensively with mcgee, I could see arguing either way.

Adams has him on that baseline spin and his flip shot though.

[retrobro90]

Don't think they need a rim protector with their gambling style defense? McGee can catch lobs and hit a middle hook shot, too. He also makes alot less than 100 million. It's alot to pay for a slow footed center, who can't shoot, on a team without shooters, that gambles all the time on D. That offensive rebounding and screen setting though......

is this serious? are we doing mcgee v. adams? really?

Wasnt really trying to, more of a statement to show what a mistake it was to pay so much to adams. An argument could be made though.

Adams is nice, but at his salary kills your chances. Westbrook creates alot of his offense (as he would with mcgee, who's basically been bounced around for nothing, especially in the lob game). Adams is a borderline top 10 center offensively, and is probably slower than average for a starter defensively and very below average as a shot blocker and rim protector.

You seem to LOVE stats, and defense. Do you think the thunders D would improve with an elite shot blocker/rim protector? I'm talking okc specifically. Having a guy that can make up ground inside, and consistently alter and block shots? It seems pretty important considering how easily some of their guards are beat off the dribble or simple screening action. Does adams even alter many shots at the rim? Let's compare the 2:

Blocks per game: mcgee: 2.28 (4th in the league)
Adams: .77 (55th in the league)

That's just the start. Of course adams, despite averaging just 1/3 of the blocks per game as mcgee, plays alot more minutes. Looking at blocks per 48 minutes, it predictably gets worse.

Blocks per 48: mcgee 4.87, 2nd in the league
Adams 1.08, tied for 86

predictably, adams plummets, behind players such as David bertans, jalen brown, Tyson chandler, and Marvin gortat. Mcgee moves up a few spots as he is as about as good as it gets in that department.

You might argue adams is the smarter defender, and that mcgee would just foul out, but looking at blocks per foul:
Mcgee: .93 (3rd)
Adams: .29 (t70)

So mcgee actually is more efficient with fouls inside, by alot, as well. He deters alot more drives and changes significantly more shots than adams, and arguing otherwise means you haven't watched mcgee play. For what you lose offensively in adams, for this particular team, and gain defensively with mcgee, I could see arguing either way.

Adams has him on that baseline spin and his flip shot though.

What about braindead shaqtin moments per 100 possessions?

[Pillendreher]

Even berry knows it’s bad...

https://newsok.com/article/5620666/thunder-slump-is-the-worst-in-okc-history

The really frustrating thin about this is: If we just defend at a league average level (which is still (really) bad for us), we probably go 4-2. The offense has been more than fine.

[spearsy23]

Lol we've moved to rating players by blocked shots now

[Old Man Game]

The Daily Thunder article out last night was pretty depressing. The stuff about Russ specifically. The bench I understood was trash

http://dailythunder.com/whats-going-on/

[hardenASG13]

Lol we've moved to rating players by blocked shots now

What do you think the thunder need defensively from their center? They play a bizarre style of aggressive defense which involves their guards getting beat alot. Do you disagree that a dominant, springy shot blocker that also deters and alters alot of shots would help their style of defense? Or is a slow footed guy who struggles to get off his feet ideal? Admit it or not, but adams is too slow in the pick and roll, just like Perkins before him as well.

Looking at their offense (which you apparently ignored), they both are not strong post up options (adams has like 2 moves, and rarely draws a double.......thats why they go away from him). They are reliant on others (westbrook) to create most of what they do. I'd argue mcgee is superior in the lob game, and adams is very good there. Neither spreads the floor. What are you really losing? Adams is the superior offensive rebounder, averaging 4.7 to mcgee 2.3 in about 12 more minutes a game. So in terms of rate, it's fairly close actually.

What we're doing here is looking for solutions rather that just posting various charts and excel graphs about Schroeder drtgs in various lineups, REPEATEDLY. We get it, they aren't good. However, he's going to play, guys, he's the best player on their bench! Do you suggest he doesn't play?

Maybe it's time to point the finger at adams, as he is arguably a top 12-15 center offensively, and slower than average compared to most other starting centers defensively while providing almost no rim protection. I think it's a problem for the team considering their style and personnel on D. What adams gives is fine for 10 mill a year, not 25! Why does he get a free pass when he's paid to be a star? Most guys who make his $$ are star guards/wings and versatile forwards.

You and others were quick to target Paul george
Earlier this season and his 'deadfoot' when he wasn't playing like a superstar. Westbrook is criticised on here all the time. I'm sick of adams getting a pass because he's funny and has a mustache. He's paid to be a star, and isn't. His contract was a mistake, and is a problem considering how slow he is on defense, and how limited he is on offense. He's very good, but a slow footed defender, who is not much of a rim protector, who relies on others to create his offense and can't shoot outside 10 feet is not the ideal piece to this roster at center they need him to be for his salary, when guys like mcgee get bounced around every year for 1/3 of it. I'm just not afraid to acknowledge the problem, is all.

[Pillendreher]

Looking at their offense (which you apparently ignored), they both are not strong post up options (adams has like 2 moves, and rarely draws a double.......thats why they go away from him).

Just stop. I'm embarassed for you from thousands of miles away. Teams routinely collapse on Adams with two, three and sometimes even four guys when he gets the ball near the basket. He's also currently 2nd (!!!) in the league in FG% on post up shot attempts:

[hardenASG13]

Looking at their offense (which you apparently ignored), they both are not strong post up options (adams has like 2 moves, and rarely draws a double.......thats why they go away from him).

Just stop. I'm embarassed for you from thousands of miles away. Teams routinely collapse on Adams with two, three and sometimes even four guys when he gets the ball near the basket. He's also currently 2nd (!!!) in the league in FG% on post up shot attempts:

No need to be embarrassed, it's not like I'm saying Jeremi grant is as bad a fit as it gets for an NBA forward or something. Adams isnt routinely, double, triple, or quadruple teamed, so stop with that. He's swarmed on offensive rebounds, or catches off dishes from A guard, sure. Not on the catch when he posts up. He's 2nd in the league on post up fg%? Great! That's worth 25 mill a year. The guy posts up about 5 times per game, it's not a big part of his or the teams offense, just as it wouldn't be for another center making 1/3 of his salary. Most of his offense is created by others, particularly Westbrook. What is your stat even saying? Do you think adams offense is predicated on dominant post play, or others setting him up and creating for him?

Also, way to ignore the main point, in that Adams is very slow and stuck to the ground defensively. The layup line at the rim is a problem, whether you are willing to admit it or not, especially at Adams price tag.

[ThunderBolt]

The Daily Thunder article out last night was pretty depressing. The stuff about Russ specifically. The bench I understood was trash

http://dailythunder.com/whats-going-on/

That was a good article. Nothing to hot-taken but pretty honest evaluation of everything.

[Pillendreher]

Also, way to ignore the main point, in that Adams is very slow and stuck to the ground defensively. The layup line at the rim is a problem, whether you are willing to admit it or not, especially at Adams price tag.

I'm not wasting my time addressing things that only exist in your imagination.

[SecondTake]

Looking at their offense (which you apparently ignored), they both are not strong post up options (adams has like 2 moves, and rarely draws a double.......thats why they go away from him).

Just stop. I'm embarassed for you from thousands of miles away. Teams routinely collapse on Adams with two, three and sometimes even four guys when he gets the ball near the basket. He's also currently 2nd (!!!) in the league in FG% on post up shot attempts:

No need to be embarrassed, it's not like I'm saying Jeremi grant is as bad a fit as it gets for an NBA forward or something. Adams isnt routinely, double, triple, or quadruple teamed, so stop with that. He's swarmed on offensive rebounds, or catches off dishes from A guard, sure. Not on the catch when he posts up. He's 2nd in the league on post up fg%? Great! That's worth 25 mill a year. The guy posts up about 5 times per game, it's not a big part of his or the teams offense, just as it wouldn't be for another center making 1/3 of his salary. Most of his offense is created by others, particularly Westbrook. What is your stat even saying? Do you think adams offense is predicated on dominant post play, or others setting him up and creating for him?

Also, way to ignore the main point, in that Adams is very slow and stuck to the ground defensively. The layup line at the rim is a problem, whether you are willing to admit it or not, especially at Adams price tag.

Like I said, the layup line isnt a problem if Adams wasnt pulled out of the post with Donovans scheme. And even with that said, his defensive rating is still very high so despite the obvious open layups it's not whats costing this team. Adams is a good post defender, he's not a mobile big that should be chasing little guards around the parameter.

Problem is that our bench stinks. I don't know why you're blaming Adams for losses caused by our bench. Yeah I hate seeing him get destroyed on the P&R due to Billy's stupid scheme, but it's not why we're losing. We're losing because our bench stinks.

[SecondTake]

Also, way to ignore the main point, in that Adams is very slow and stuck to the ground defensively. The layup line at the rim is a problem, whether you are willing to admit it or not, especially at Adams price tag.

I'm not wasting my time addressing things that only exist in your imagination.

To be fair though, I assume you've seen some of those open layups we're hit with when Adam shows high on the P&R? Not saying it's why we're losing or that it happens every time, but it's been happening several times per game now and it looks really ugly when it does.

[hardenASG13]

Also, way to ignore the main point, in that Adams is very slow and stuck to the ground defensively. The layup line at the rim is a problem, whether you are willing to admit it or not, especially at Adams price tag.

I'm not wasting my time addressing things that only exist in your imagination.

No it's laid out there for you statistically, he's way below average in rim protection, something they badly need based on personnel and style. Also here's a good read for you on the efficiency of the
Post up, despite adams ranking 2nd in fg% there with 5 post ups per game (insignificant).
https://shottracker.com/articles/the-endangered-post-up

For those who won't read it, there's alot in there about what NBA teams need from centers today (speed and shot blocking on D, ability to space the floor at least somewhat, score on cuts and lobs), and how inefficient the post up is, making your point about his post up fg% embarrassing.

[Pillendreher]

Also here's a good read for you on the efficiency of the
Post up, despite adams ranking 2nd in fg% there with 5 post ups per game (insignificant).
https://shottracker.com/articles/the-endangered-post-up

For those who won't read it, there's alot in there about what NBA teams need from centers today (speed and shot blocking on D, ability to space the floor at least somewhat, score on cuts and lobs), and how inefficient the post up is, making your point about his post up fg% embarrassing.

The only one embarassing himself is you. First you try to make the ridiculous claim that Adams isn't guarded and that he is a bad post up player. Now it's that post ups don't matter.

Out of the 27 Centers that play at least 25 minutes a night, Adams ranks 4th in Team DRtG with the Center on the floor. Maybe go look for problems that actually exist instead of wasting everybody's time with nonsense like this.

[Pillendreher]

Also, way to ignore the main point, in that Adams is very slow and stuck to the ground defensively. The layup line at the rim is a problem, whether you are willing to admit it or not, especially at Adams price tag.

I'm not wasting my time addressing things that only exist in your imagination.

To be fair though, I assume you've seen some of those open layups we're hit with when Adam shows high on the P&R? Not saying it's why we're losing or that it happens every time, but it's been happening several times per game now and it looks really ugly when it does.

That's a scheme issue, not an Adams issue. If you show that hard/ICE/whatever you want to call it, the rotations behind you have to be on point. If they are not, you're in trouble.