Treadmilling Is Better Than Tanking

[dakomish23]

Of course the 76ers are happy but how many times per every 20 years can a team emulate what the 76ers did? I'd estimate 4 times. That means 26 other teams would have to find another way to construct an elite team within 20 years.

How many times per every 20 years has a team tried to emulate what the 76ers did?

Usually, there's only 1 Embiid or Zion available in a draft class. If ten teams are tanking to get 2 of these kinds of players, it'd take like 20 years for every one of these teams to get 2 Embiid level prospects. Then you got to factor in drafts where none of the top 5 prospects become a superstar and teams that get a star but are no longer bad enough to tank.

Still didn’t answer the question

[dakomish23]

Of course the 76ers are happy but how many times per every 20 years can a team emulate what the 76ers did? I'd estimate 4 times. That means 26 other teams would have to find another way to construct an elite team within 20 years.

How many times per every 20 years has a team tried to emulate what the 76ers did?

The last time it was tried before the 76ers was the Thunder, who would've had multiple championships if their owners wanted to pay the luxury tax.

Yep. Play the kids, live with the results (likely L’s).

If you draft well, it works.

[Clyde Frazier]

You think PHI is mad they tanked and got Embid & Simmons?

You think Denver is mad they didn't tank and got Jokic?

...he was the 41st pick in the draft. tanking or not tanking had absolutely nothing to do with the nuggets selecting him.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

You think PHI is mad they tanked and got Embid & Simmons?

You think Denver is mad they didn't tank and got Jokic?

The Nuggets had 4 lottery picks after they drafted Jokic and haven't been in the playoffs in 6 years, they got lucky drafting Jokic late, cause they blew a pick on Mudiay and traded away on Mitchell.

[Buzzard]

Hawks were on the playoff treadmill for 10 years. Age and defections finally caught up with us. We blew it up once Horford left and I am not sure that qualifies as tanking or just being smart. This year we have beaten OKC, Philadelphia, Washington, Denver, Miami, Detroit, and Dallas; yet still have the 5th worse record in the league.

I don't think we are tanking as much as we are just young and not ready for prime time yet. Some though may see the very act of blowing up your team as tanking. Someone else said luck, I think a lot of this has to do with timing and your GM.

Good timing is to lose when there are top heavy drafts. A good GM is required to make sure those picks are not wasted. Putting those two things together can be called luck in itself; seeing how hard it is to recognize elite talent in the first place. There is no sure fire one way to do things.

During the Hawks 10 year playoff run, I was totally confident we were just one trade away from being elite. That trade never happened. Now that we are drafting lottery picks again, I am confident we are one or two picks away from becoming elite. No secret formula. Most NBA teams are always at least one player away from being elite. Whether they are losing or constantly being a 4th through 8th seed. Elite is for those few who are constantly 1st, 2nd, or 3rd seeds every season. The rest of us are on one treadmill or the other.

[MrSparkle]

I’ve long said that tanking is not the answer. I think 1-2 isolated seasons of “elected” tanking due to injury pileups and age declines (basically SAS 98, BOS 13, DAL last 2 years) is much better than a deliberate plan of dumping excellent prime players for trash or prospects, clearing cap and just making a long-term vision of collecting assets.

It takes a stable coach and system to develop anybody, and patience. That’s the main problem with this long cycle of bumbling perennial tank teams; they don’t get that a group of 19-24 year olds no matter how talented, won’t win ****. Very rare that anybody under 24 hits peak efficiency and win impact. It happens but it’s rare, and it doesn’t have that much to do with being a #1 pick. I’m looking at Curry, Giannis, Leonard, Oladipo, George... great players, picked later. Each these guys actually developed on good teams, or alongside a semblance of talent.

If you are in a 3+ year cycle of losing with no established all-star, my impetus as a GM, esp small market, would be to sign some short-term vets and start competing. I don’t know why 1y “overpays” aren’t more fashionable. JJ Redick’s 24m Sixers , Rondo/Lance/McGee/etc being the more logical signings in my recent memory. Not saying to lock a John Henson or Evan Turner into some stupid 4y contract, but just vet rentals.

I am stunned that SAC and MIN have/had such long droughts, and would be very worried as a PHX and CHI fan.

[Warriorfan]

There are some years to strategically tank and others not.

One case is in order to keep a 1st round draft pick . Eg that year when a 1st turns into 2nds after so many years of lottery protection. Another case is to keep a high lotto pick in a predicted deep draft class.


Warriors for Harrison Barnes and Kings for Daaron Fox did this.

[nomansland]

How many times per every 20 years has a team tried to emulate what the 76ers did?

The Sonics did it after the sale but the ownership had the luxury of knowing that they could alienate an entire fan base with zero consequences. They also had the luxury of moving to a new market that still had patience to endure a bad team for a couple of years just because they were excited to have a team.

Denver tanked back in the day prior to getting Melo. It was a shorter-term blowing up of the team though.


Regardless, we have to keep in mind that Philly may have landed Embiid and Simmons but they also shanked a bunch of picks over their 6 year tank, and they're still far from a dynasty. They're arguably not even a top 5 team right now, or they're barely there.

They started the process the draft of 2013. They stopped tanking the draft of 2017. So it’s 4 years.

Yes, not everything worked. But they got as many bites at the apple and they got two perennial all stars.

Not a top 5 team right now. You’re speaking as if this their peak. It’s not even close. Their best years are ahead of them.

They started tanking when they traded Iguodala in 2012. So we'll say 5. Still, it took forever and they whiffed on at least a few picks. In theory they should be farther ahead than they currently are.

[nomansland]

You think PHI is mad they tanked and got Embid & Simmons?

You think Denver is mad they didn't tank and got Jokic?

The Nuggets had 4 lottery picks after they drafted Jokic and haven't been in the playoffs in 6 years, they got lucky drafting Jokic late, cause they blew a pick on Mudiay and traded away on Mitchell.

They didn't trade away Mitchell. If they'd have used that pick it'd have been on Anunoby.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

You think Denver is mad they didn't tank and got Jokic?

The Nuggets had 4 lottery picks after they drafted Jokic and haven't been in the playoffs in 6 years, they got lucky drafting Jokic late, cause they blew a pick on Mudiay and traded away on Mitchell.

They didn't trade away Mitchell. If they'd have used that pick it'd have been on Anunoby.

He wore the hat I'm counting it

[Forte IV]

Nuggets, Raptors, Celtics are perfect examples of this but I wouldn't use the word 'tread milling' as it seems it has a negative conotation within our board.

Those teams for example built on the fly and improved every year with thought out intelligent roster moves.

Throw in the Rockets too. They were the definition of a treadmill team constantly getting the 14th pick until they waited and found their star in James Harden

[Sofia]

Is this a troll thread, designed to bathe peole? Or is it just bad?

Sent from my SM-S727VL using RealGM mobile app

Bait

Sent from my SM-S727VL using RealGM mobile app

Did you just respond to yourself?

He’s correcting “bathe” to “bait” but didn’t find the edit button..

[dakomish23]

The Sonics did it after the sale but the ownership had the luxury of knowing that they could alienate an entire fan base with zero consequences. They also had the luxury of moving to a new market that still had patience to endure a bad team for a couple of years just because they were excited to have a team.

Denver tanked back in the day prior to getting Melo. It was a shorter-term blowing up of the team though.


Regardless, we have to keep in mind that Philly may have landed Embiid and Simmons but they also shanked a bunch of picks over their 6 year tank, and they're still far from a dynasty. They're arguably not even a top 5 team right now, or they're barely there.

They started the process the draft of 2013. They stopped tanking the draft of 2017. So it’s 4 years.

Yes, not everything worked. But they got as many bites at the apple and they got two perennial all stars.

Not a top 5 team right now. You’re speaking as if this their peak. It’s not even close. Their best years are ahead of them.

They started tanking when they traded Iguodala in 2012. So we'll say 5. Still, it took forever and they whiffed on at least a few picks. In theory they should be farther ahead than they currently are.

They were swinging for the fences by getting Bynum. Far from a tanking move. It started with the Holiday for Noel move.

Yeah, they could be farther. But going from top 5 in the lottery to a top 10 team at worst is pretty good returns. Sucks b/c Hinkie couldn’t finish what he started.

[Sofia]

We talkin justise Winslow

19th in RPM among SFs and started off the year playing out of position.

19th in the league is usually right in the middle of the treadmill.

[tdotrep2]

i dont think it matters as much as people think, its far more important to have a good front office. The raptors could of been considered tread milling but we kept drafting well and developing talent, that combined with winning i think is the best choice not necessarily winning titles but games in general can build confidence in the organization to the public.

[dc]

Throw in the Rockets too. They were the definition of a treadmill team constantly getting the 14th pick until they waited and found their star in James Harden

Big difference between Morey/Rockets and treadmill teams like Charlotte/Orlando/Detroit. None of these teams, Rockets included, ever tanked.

But when Morey inherited the team, he never once tried building around the mediocre pieces he had. He never tried to "win now" with them or develop and build around them. He viewed everything as assets and moved them around with no sense of sentiment. He made moves on top of moves and kept collecting assets until an opportunity arose and he cashed in using those assets.

The other 3 teams mentioned have constantly tried building around foundations that they had for years. Detroit tried building around Monroe/Drummond for. Orlando around Elfrid Payton/Vucevic. Charlotte around Kemba/MKG and others. They all spent non-trivial amounts of time trying to win with those guys.

Morey never tried that. He traded for Kevin Martin, but I doubt he ever viewed him as a guy to build around. He viewed him as piece that he could later on use for a bigger move. And he did just that.

Edit: And a lot of players/teams/agents never really liked what Morey did, viewing everyone as a replaceable/disposable piece that he would have no problem tossing aside when the time came. Similar things were said of the Magic in 2000 when they purposely gave away more talented players and stocked their roster with less talented guys who would expire the next summer. Guys who everyone knew wouldn't be brought back the following year.

[Miasma]

Bucks were tread-milling for an eternity and still haven't won a playoff series since 2001. We did tank however in 13-14 after fans funded a pro-tank billboard. Neither practice was productive, actually. Only reason we are where we are now is because of one swing for the fences pick in the middle of the 1st round in 2013. A lot of it is simply luck.

[SactoKingsFan]

You're referencing teams that were never tanking in the first place. Maybe if the Magic committed to the tank instead of randomly going after a win-now piece in Ibaka, they would be in a better position right now.

They drafted a player who was 2nd overall. Kings had a top 5 big man and tanked for years with him and didn't make the playoffs. Pelicans drafted a player who's arguably a top 5 player in Anthony Davis and will likely have to trade him next season. Tanking fails more than 50% of the time.

Kings weren't even tanking during the Cousins years. They were just terrible at drafting, player development and hiring coaches.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[dc]

Bucks were tread-milling for an eternity and still haven't won a playoff series since 2001. We did tank however in 13-14 after fans funded a pro-tank billboard. Neither practice was productive, actually. Only reason we are where we are now is because of one swing for the fences pick in the middle of the 1st round in 2013. A lot of it is simply luck.

Can't really equate one single year of tanking to the 76ers' process. Warriors tanked 1 year in 2002 only to wind up with Mike Dunleavy. The usually non-tanking Hornbobs actually tanked in 2012 only to end up with MKG.

Philly's idea was that, yeah, the draft is a crapshoot. But if we spend several consecutive years tanking (they did 3 years hard. 4 if you include the Holiday/Noel draft day trade as a year of tank) then chances are, we'll land a player or 2 worth building around. They artificially increased their chances of lotto luck through multiple years of tank. And in that sense, they succeeded.

Certainly, they're in a better situation than teams like Charlotte/Orlando.

[itrsteve]

Nope.

A treadmill is basically like being in Hell/NBA Purgatory.

You’re stuck in mediocrity.

Never bad enough to have a chance at one of the Top Draft Picks for a potential Franchise Player, and nowhere near good enough to be a contender.

I Guarantee if you made a poll “Which is better, Treadmill or Tanking? Tanking would win by a landslide. I don’t even see how this is debatable.

Unless you’re content being mediocre for eternity.

You’re overlooking a major component, ticket sales. Championships are great and all, but an empty arena season after season will sting.

Never forget, these franchises are all businesses with a bottom line to be aware of.