Hot Topic - Quite Frankly; All Things Frank

[GONYK]

To trade Frank or not trade Frank is an entirely different point of management than whether or not Frank should be getting guaranteed sizable minutes in a season where wins matter so little that we actually don't want them.

The counterpoint seems to be that management needs Mudiay to play starters minutes to evaluate him properly, yet that logic doesn't carry over to Frank.

The story goes that we need to put Mudiay through his paces to see if he's worth bringing back, even though that would run completely counter to our plans of preserving cap space. Even if we don't use that capspace, Mudiay has not proven to be a winning player (the exact opposite really), yet management might still be interested in bringing him back in a major role.

So the "play Frank in a no pressure environment" counterargument really boils down to that Mudiay needs to play because Pills might be bad at their job, and we just aren't sure yet.

[NoLayupRule]

To trade Frank or not trade Frank is an entirely different point of management than whether or not Frank should be getting guaranteed sizable minutes in a season where wins matter so little that we actually don't want them.

The counterpoint seems to be that management needs Mudiay to play starters minutes to evaluate him properly, yet that logic doesn't carry over to Frank.

The story goes that we need to put Mudiay through his paces to see if he's worth bringing back, even though that would run completely counter to our plans of preserving cap space. Even if we don't use that capspace, Mudiay has not proven to be a winning player (the exact opposite really), yet management might still be interested in bringing him back in a major role.

So the "play Frank in a no pressure environment" counterargument really boils down to that Mudiay needs to play because Pills might be bad at their job, and we just aren't sure yet.

thats a pretty significant leap you just made there

there are many other ways of reading it

for example as a team POV for Fiz. Perhaps Mudiay is the better passer, penetrator, up tempo attacking guard and more effective scorer - all true at this point - which allows Fiz tp play the team more the way he wants. He wants them to push, move the ball, penetrate and score or dish and attack the defense. He wants to keep them in games and give them a fighting chance.

Perhaps these are reasons why Mudiay gets the mins people think frank should.

Quite honestly Frank seems very passive still. He likes to get rid of the ball more often than not, he allows his defenders to sag off easily and double team, he tends to stand around on offense waiting for a catch and shoot instead of crashing boards, cutting or setting screens, etc


I like frank and his age seems to be a major factor in his play out there. But its also possible that just because were the knicks doesn't except us from picking a disappointing player in the early part of the lottery.


and for what its worth Frank this season averages 21 min per game
Mudiay averages 26.8

that 5.5 min difference isnt the reason Frank is struggling IMO

[GONYK]

To trade Frank or not trade Frank is an entirely different point of management than whether or not Frank should be getting guaranteed sizable minutes in a season where wins matter so little that we actually don't want them.

The counterpoint seems to be that management needs Mudiay to play starters minutes to evaluate him properly, yet that logic doesn't carry over to Frank.

The story goes that we need to put Mudiay through his paces to see if he's worth bringing back, even though that would run completely counter to our plans of preserving cap space. Even if we don't use that capspace, Mudiay has not proven to be a winning player (the exact opposite really), yet management might still be interested in bringing him back in a major role.

So the "play Frank in a no pressure environment" counterargument really boils down to that Mudiay needs to play because Pills might be bad at their job, and we just aren't sure yet.

thats a pretty significant leap you just made there

there are many other ways of reading it

for example as a team POV for Fiz. Perhaps Mudiay is the better passer, penetrator, up tempo attacking guard and more effective scorer - all true at this point - which allows Fiz tp play the team more the way he wants. He wants them to push, move the ball, penetrate and score or dish and attack the defense. He wants to keep them in games and give them a fighting chance.

Perhaps these are reasons why Mudiay gets the mins people think frank should.

Quite honestly Frank seems very passive still. He likes to get rid of the ball more often than not, he allows his defenders to sag off easily and double team, he tends to stand around on offense waiting for a catch and shoot instead of crashing boards, cutting or setting screens, etc


I like frank and his age seems to be a major factor in his play out there. But its also possible that just because were the knicks doesn't except us from picking a disappointing player in the early part of the lottery.


and for what its worth Frank this season averages 21 min per game
Mudiay averages 26.8

that 5.5 min difference isnt the reason Frank is struggling IMO

What you laid out are valid concerns for coach to have, which is why I didn't mention Fiz. Coaches will almost always play to the short term.

I am talking about Pills, who should be concerned about all the things that happen beyond this season, and should be taking the cap into account.

Also, that minutes played stat is misleading, since Frank played heavy mins to start the season (including at SF) and Mudiay barely played at all.

Since the end of November, Mudiay has been averaging 31 MPG and Frank has been averaging 18 MPG. So really, we're talking about a whole lot more than 5 MPG difference.

[Galou]

Word is bond son... Keep that Dennis the menace chump away from the Knicks please.

[GONYK]

Read on Twitter

[HEZI]

When talking about cap space you have to factor in Franks 5 mil salary. Hes basically overpaid for his production so moving him for financial relief is another factor. He's not worth 5 mil right now and when you consider that 2nd round pick salaries are worth like less than half of that it gives you more to think about. That's the other issue with him being a lotto pick, hes not as cheap as some make it seem. We got more productive players making less than him

[NoLayupRule]

To trade Frank or not trade Frank is an entirely different point of management than whether or not Frank should be getting guaranteed sizable minutes in a season where wins matter so little that we actually don't want them.

The counterpoint seems to be that management needs Mudiay to play starters minutes to evaluate him properly, yet that logic doesn't carry over to Frank.

The story goes that we need to put Mudiay through his paces to see if he's worth bringing back, even though that would run completely counter to our plans of preserving cap space. Even if we don't use that capspace, Mudiay has not proven to be a winning player (the exact opposite really), yet management might still be interested in bringing him back in a major role.

So the "play Frank in a no pressure environment" counterargument really boils down to that Mudiay needs to play because Pills might be bad at their job, and we just aren't sure yet.

thats a pretty significant leap you just made there

there are many other ways of reading it

for example as a team POV for Fiz. Perhaps Mudiay is the better passer, penetrator, up tempo attacking guard and more effective scorer - all true at this point - which allows Fiz tp play the team more the way he wants. He wants them to push, move the ball, penetrate and score or dish and attack the defense. He wants to keep them in games and give them a fighting chance.

Perhaps these are reasons why Mudiay gets the mins people think frank should.

Quite honestly Frank seems very passive still. He likes to get rid of the ball more often than not, he allows his defenders to sag off easily and double team, he tends to stand around on offense waiting for a catch and shoot instead of crashing boards, cutting or setting screens, etc


I like frank and his age seems to be a major factor in his play out there. But its also possible that just because were the knicks doesn't except us from picking a disappointing player in the early part of the lottery.


and for what its worth Frank this season averages 21 min per game
Mudiay averages 26.8

that 5.5 min difference isnt the reason Frank is struggling IMO

What you laid out are valid concerns for coach to have, which is why I didn't mention Fiz. Coaches will almost always play to the short term.

I am talking about Pills, who should be concerned about all the things that happen beyond this season, and should be taking the cap into account.

Also, that minutes played stat is misleading, since Frank played heavy mins to start the season (including at SF) and Mudiay barely played at all.

Since the end of November, Mudiay has been averaging 31 MPG and Frank has been averaging 18 MPG. So really, we're talking about a whole lot more than 5 MPG difference.

thats an excellent point about mins for sure

yes, I get you on coach vs gm but I do think they are in sync on things
I was suggesting only one alternate pov

from a GM pov I think some of the same issues apply - the style of play and keeping us slightly competitive for example - but largely its about valuing assets

if we have a chance at the deadline to move Mudiay for value then the experiment will have succeeded
if we see a staring level player in mudiay at his 10mil cal hold then we can go into free agency with that super important position penciled in even as we explore other options there and with the cap


that said its pretty clear that this season should be, and largely is, about developing the young core we have under contract

Mudiay, Vonleh and Mario all should be taking a back seat to the contracted players in terms of getting a look

[NoLayupRule]

When talking about cap space you have to factor in Franks 5 mil salary. Hes basically overpaid for his production so moving him for financial relief is another factor. He's not worth 5 mil right now and when you consider that 2nd round pick salaries are worth like less than half of that it gives you more to think about. That's the other issue with him being a lotto pick, hes not as cheap as some make it seem. We got more productive players making less than him

there are no real options at less than 5mil unless you land a diamond in the rough

like a D-league guy who you call up or a 2nd rounder you get lucky on

5mil a season for a guy like frank is probably exactly right

[prophet_of_rage]

To trade Frank or not trade Frank is an entirely different point of management than whether or not Frank should be getting guaranteed sizable minutes in a season where wins matter so little that we actually don't want them.

The counterpoint seems to be that management needs Mudiay to play starters minutes to evaluate him properly, yet that logic doesn't carry over to Frank.

The story goes that we need to put Mudiay through his paces to see if he's worth bringing back, even though that would run completely counter to our plans of preserving cap space. Even if we don't use that capspace, Mudiay has not proven to be a winning player (the exact opposite really), yet management might still be interested in bringing him back in a major role.

So the "play Frank in a no pressure environment" counterargument really boils down to that Mudiay needs to play because Pills might be bad at their job, and we just aren't sure yet.

No, it breaks down to the camp believing Frank can improve with more minutes on the floor versus the camp that believes he is playing the minutes necessary and that mkre wont help versus the camp that believes Frank simplu sucks and should be traded versus the camp that believes Frank is God.

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[Sark]

When talking about cap space you have to factor in Franks 5 mil salary. Hes basically overpaid for his production so moving him for financial relief is another factor. He's not worth 5 mil right now and when you consider that 2nd round pick salaries are worth like less than half of that it gives you more to think about. That's the other issue with him being a lotto pick, hes not as cheap as some make it seem. We got more productive players making less than him

This isn't the NFL dude. He's on a rookie contract, and he's a developing player. You don't judge young players on rookie deals that way.

[HEZI]

When talking about cap space you have to factor in Franks 5 mil salary. Hes basically overpaid for his production so moving him for financial relief is another factor. He's not worth 5 mil right now and when you consider that 2nd round pick salaries are worth like less than half of that it gives you more to think about. That's the other issue with him being a lotto pick, hes not as cheap as some make it seem. We got more productive players making less than him

This isn't the NFL dude. He's on a rookie contract, and he's a developing player. You don't judge young players on rookie deals that way.

Mitchell Robinson is a developing player on a rookie deal also, as are other young prospects throughout the league. You absolutely judge him on that. Shyt he's made more money annually being a backup to every PG thats taken his starting job over the last couple years

[Sark]

When talking about cap space you have to factor in Franks 5 mil salary. Hes basically overpaid for his production so moving him for financial relief is another factor. He's not worth 5 mil right now and when you consider that 2nd round pick salaries are worth like less than half of that it gives you more to think about. That's the other issue with him being a lotto pick, hes not as cheap as some make it seem. We got more productive players making less than him

This isn't the NFL dude. He's on a rookie contract, and he's a developing player. You don't judge young players on rookie deals that way.

Mitchell Robinson is a developing player on a rookie deal also, as are other young prospects throughout the league. You absolutely judge him on that. Shyt he's made more money annually being a backup to every PG thats taken his starting job over the last couple years

Using this logic, Embiid had zero value his first 2 years, since he provided zero production, and was making $5m. Good thing the Sixers didn't use your logic and move him since he gave them no production.

[thebuzzardman]

DSJr seems more like the kind of guard Perry and Fiz value. Probably Mills as well.

Get er done Pills!

Trade Dotson too. Not enough wiggle in his game.

There's a tasteless joke in here.

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Damn! You're right!

I'm usually more attuned to tasteless jokes!

[HEZI]

This isn't the NFL dude. He's on a rookie contract, and he's a developing player. You don't judge young players on rookie deals that way.

Mitchell Robinson is a developing player on a rookie deal also, as are other young prospects throughout the league. You absolutely judge him on that. Shyt he's made more money annually being a backup to every PG thats taken his starting job over the last couple years

Using this logic, Embiid had zero value his first 2 years, since he provided zero production, and was making $5m. Good thing the Sixers didn't use your logic and move him since he gave them no production.

How are the two even remotely similar? Embiid was injured. His situation is similar to Porzingis not Frank Ntilikina. Franks situation is more similar to Okafor than Embiid

[Phish Tank]

Mitchell Robinson is a developing player on a rookie deal also, as are other young prospects throughout the league. You absolutely judge him on that. Shyt he's made more money annually being a backup to every PG thats taken his starting job over the last couple years

Using this logic, Embiid had zero value his first 2 years, since he provided zero production, and was making $5m. Good thing the Sixers didn't use your logic and move him since he gave them no production.

How are the two even remotely similar? Embiid was injured. His situation is similar to Porzingis not Frank Ntilikina. Franks situation is more similar to Okafor than Embiid

the last team that traded a lottery player for "cap relief" as you mentioned was the Knicks when they tried to clear space for 2010 and struck out.

Stupid deal then and stupid deal now.

But according to your logic, you'd probably agree that a lot of lottery pick rooks in the 2014, 2015, 2016, and even last years draft were well overpaid too.

[Sark]

Look, the Knicks can come out and say they're not interested in developing Frank, and that's a perfectly valid and viable path for them to take.

But to say they should move Frank because he doesn't provide enough production relative to his salary is absurd.

Players are drafted and paid on a rookie scale. They usually aren't drafted for their production, but rather their future potential. Frank was definitely a lotto level prospect, and is paid his salary because of that. He still has value, as many teams have inquired about him, and would easily take him off the Knicks hands.

[HEZI]

Using this logic, Embiid had zero value his first 2 years, since he provided zero production, and was making $5m. Good thing the Sixers didn't use your logic and move him since he gave them no production.

How are the two even remotely similar? Embiid was injured. His situation is similar to Porzingis not Frank Ntilikina. Franks situation is more similar to Okafor than Embiid

the last team that traded a lottery player for "cap relief" as you mentioned was the Knicks when they tried to clear space for 2010 and struck out.

Stupid deal then and stupid deal now.

But according to your logic, you'd probably agree that a lot of lottery pick rooks in the 2014, 2015, 2016, and even last years draft were well overpaid too.

Jordan Hill? Good example

I take cap space over Jordan Hill all day every day. Even a strike out is better than Hill on the roster. Imagine trying to build around that bum? Lol

[Phish Tank]

How are the two even remotely similar? Embiid was injured. His situation is similar to Porzingis not Frank Ntilikina. Franks situation is more similar to Okafor than Embiid

the last team that traded a lottery player for "cap relief" as you mentioned was the Knicks when they tried to clear space for 2010 and struck out.

Stupid deal then and stupid deal now.

But according to your logic, you'd probably agree that a lot of lottery pick rooks in the 2014, 2015, 2016, and even last years draft were well overpaid too.

Jordan Hill? Good example

I take cap space over Jordan Hill all day every day. Even a strike out is better than Hill on the roster. Imagine trying to build around that bum? Lol

Replace Jordan Hill with - say - Jrue Holiday or Jeff Teague and I'd think twice.

Only reason I mention those two is that Walsh was trading the pick anyways for cap relief.

[Sark]

Noah Vonleh wasn't providing enough production relative to his salary his first 3 years, and I would wager that every team that had him would love to go back in time, and redo those transactions.

[HEZI]

the last team that traded a lottery player for "cap relief" as you mentioned was the Knicks when they tried to clear space for 2010 and struck out.

Stupid deal then and stupid deal now.

But according to your logic, you'd probably agree that a lot of lottery pick rooks in the 2014, 2015, 2016, and even last years draft were well overpaid too.

Jordan Hill? Good example

I take cap space over Jordan Hill all day every day. Even a strike out is better than Hill on the roster. Imagine trying to build around that bum? Lol

Replace Jordan Hill with - say - Jrue Holiday or Jeff Teague and I'd think twice.

Only reason I mention those two is that Walsh was trading the pick anyways for cap relief.

While on topic of Jrue Holiday, Philly has done a much better job of rebuilding since getting rid of him. Pelicans are struggling to win with him. I like him as a player but it just goes to show that you can afford to lose yet still come out on top. I mean Philly has wasted a lot of lotto picks over the years yet still found a way to become an elite NBA team.