2018/19 ROY/Rookie Discussion Thread (Pt 2)

[LukaV]

Shame for Dončić's ejection, but hopefully he'll grow from this and come back stronger.

[Sactowndog]

I still think it's insane that JJJ has a lower TRB% than Doncic.

Look where they are often positioned on defense. With Gasol, JJJ is often on the opposing teams perimeter player creating match-up problems with his length. Doncic meanwhile is most often in help position one step outside the key waiting for rebounds. Doncic should have way more rebounds just by catching the balls that fall at his feet.

He would, but Daj camps by Luka's feet before opposing players release the ball.

DaJ should not be criticized by Doncic fans....

Quotes like this are why I think other players may not want to play with Doncic.

Deandre Jordan has a -7.2 defensive field goal percentage for players within 6 ft. Meaning opponents shoot over 7% less with Jordan guarding them. DeAndre Jordan averages 5.7 defensive boxouts a game. If a player gets by the guards DJ averages 1.0 block a game.

By comparison, Doncic has a plus 5.1% defensive field goal percentage for players within 6 ft. And despite playing the 4, Luka chases rebounds and rarely boxes out his man. Luka averages .7 defensive box outs a game. Luka isn’t much help protecting the rim either averaging .3 blocks a game.

In short, DJ is covering Luka’s ass on defense with little help. If Luka were playing the 3 and defending the perimeter than these numbers wouldn’t matter. But he rarely guards on the perimeter in the games I saw and is a defensive sieve whose sole job is to chase rebounds while others box out.

[Johnny Firpo]

Quotes like this are why I think other players may not want to play with Doncic.

What?

[kazyv]

Deandre Jordan has a -7.2 defensive field goal percentage for players within 6 ft. Meaning opponents shoot over 7% less with Jordan guarding them. DeAndre Jordan averages 5.7 defensive boxouts a game. If a player gets by the guards DJ averages 1.0 block a game.

another day, another attempt to convince the world dj is a good defender. that's a very nice defensive field goal percentage. it would be a shame if somebody brought up the amount of opposing team drives vs mavs(probably fairly high) and the percentage of the drives dj actually contests(probably fairly low).

i would very much hope he boxes out some players, because he pretty much always stays home on his man and doesn't play help defense.

1 block per game is by the way good for 30th in the nba, even dirk had some seasons better than that.

dj is good at one thing at this point, defending the opposing center and getting the defensive rebounds. that's it.

[Archx]

Look where they are often positioned on defense. With Gasol, JJJ is often on the opposing teams perimeter player creating match-up problems with his length. Doncic meanwhile is most often in help position one step outside the key waiting for rebounds. Doncic should have way more rebounds just by catching the balls that fall at his feet.

He would, but Daj camps by Luka's feet before opposing players release the ball.

DaJ should not be criticized by Doncic fans....

Quotes like this are why I think other players may not want to play with Doncic.

Deandre Jordan has a -7.2 defensive field goal percentage for players within 6 ft. Meaning opponents shoot over 7% less with Jordan guarding them. DeAndre Jordan averages 5.7 defensive boxouts a game. If a player gets by the guards DJ averages 1.0 block a game.

By comparison, Doncic has a plus 5.1% defensive field goal percentage for players within 6 ft. And despite playing the 4, Luka chases rebounds and rarely boxes out his man. Luka averages .7 defensive box outs a game. Luka isn’t much help protecting the rim either averaging .3 blocks a game.

In short, DJ is covering Luka’s ass on defense with little help. If Luka were playing the 3 and defending the perimeter than these numbers wouldn’t matter. But he rarely guards on the perimeter in the games I saw and is a defensive sieve whose sole job is to chase rebounds while others box out.

What are you talking about? Luka is a PG not PF. Kleber is the one who is covering ass for DAJ and Luka and everyone else. He's their main rim protector. Advance stats are not only black and white, there is a grey area as well and that's eye test.

Doncic coming in was never suppose to be a great defender, whole universe knew this and they accepted that. Still he is not the reason they are losing more than they should have. Like you said, you only watched some games, so no point even debating about this.

[Sactowndog]

Quotes like this are why I think other players may not want to play with Doncic.

What?

Referring to the quote that Jordon steals rebounds from Doncic. The same guy that boxes out a grand total of .7 times a game.

[Sactowndog]

He would, but Daj camps by Luka's feet before opposing players release the ball.

DaJ should not be criticized by Doncic fans....

Quotes like this are why I think other players may not want to play with Doncic.

Deandre Jordan has a -7.2 defensive field goal percentage for players within 6 ft. Meaning opponents shoot over 7% less with Jordan guarding them. DeAndre Jordan averages 5.7 defensive boxouts a game. If a player gets by the guards DJ averages 1.0 block a game.

By comparison, Doncic has a plus 5.1% defensive field goal percentage for players within 6 ft. And despite playing the 4, Luka chases rebounds and rarely boxes out his man. Luka averages .7 defensive box outs a game. Luka isn’t much help protecting the rim either averaging .3 blocks a game.

In short, DJ is covering Luka’s ass on defense with little help. If Luka were playing the 3 and defending the perimeter than these numbers wouldn’t matter. But he rarely guards on the perimeter in the games I saw and is a defensive sieve whose sole job is to chase rebounds while others box out.

What are you talking about? Luka is a PG not PF. Kleber is the one who is covering ass for DAJ and Luka and everyone else. He's their main rim protector. Advance stats are not only black and white, there is a grey area as well and that's eye test.

Doncic coming in was never suppose to be a great defender, whole universe knew this and they accepted that. Still he is not the reason they are losing more than they should have. Like you said, you only watched some games, so no point even debating about this.

Kleber is doing a good job. He’s a good find. And yes Luka is a ball handler but he does not play point guard. Especially defensively. Defensively he is a 4 that doesn’t protect the rim, box out, or defend the perimeter.

[gh123]

DaJ should not be criticized by Doncic fans....

Quotes like this are why I think other players may not want to play with Doncic.

Deandre Jordan has a -7.2 defensive field goal percentage for players within 6 ft. Meaning opponents shoot over 7% less with Jordan guarding them. DeAndre Jordan averages 5.7 defensive boxouts a game. If a player gets by the guards DJ averages 1.0 block a game.

By comparison, Doncic has a plus 5.1% defensive field goal percentage for players within 6 ft. And despite playing the 4, Luka chases rebounds and rarely boxes out his man. Luka averages .7 defensive box outs a game. Luka isn’t much help protecting the rim either averaging .3 blocks a game.

In short, DJ is covering Luka’s ass on defense with little help. If Luka were playing the 3 and defending the perimeter than these numbers wouldn’t matter. But he rarely guards on the perimeter in the games I saw and is a defensive sieve whose sole job is to chase rebounds while others box out.

What are you talking about? Luka is a PG not PF. Kleber is the one who is covering ass for DAJ and Luka and everyone else. He's their main rim protector. Advance stats are not only black and white, there is a grey area as well and that's eye test.

Doncic coming in was never suppose to be a great defender, whole universe knew this and they accepted that. Still he is not the reason they are losing more than they should have. Like you said, you only watched some games, so no point even debating about this.

Kleber is doing a good job. He’s a good find. And yes Luka is a ball handler but he does not play point guard. Especially defensively. Defensively he is a 4 that doesn’t protect the rim, box out, or defend the perimeter.

He was on Collison last night, wtf what 4? He never guarded 4, stop making things up.

[Dundalis]

DaJ should not be criticized by Doncic fans....

Quotes like this are why I think other players may not want to play with Doncic.

Deandre Jordan has a -7.2 defensive field goal percentage for players within 6 ft. Meaning opponents shoot over 7% less with Jordan guarding them. DeAndre Jordan averages 5.7 defensive boxouts a game. If a player gets by the guards DJ averages 1.0 block a game.

By comparison, Doncic has a plus 5.1% defensive field goal percentage for players within 6 ft. And despite playing the 4, Luka chases rebounds and rarely boxes out his man. Luka averages .7 defensive box outs a game. Luka isn’t much help protecting the rim either averaging .3 blocks a game.

In short, DJ is covering Luka’s ass on defense with little help. If Luka were playing the 3 and defending the perimeter than these numbers wouldn’t matter. But he rarely guards on the perimeter in the games I saw and is a defensive sieve whose sole job is to chase rebounds while others box out.

What are you talking about? Luka is a PG not PF. Kleber is the one who is covering ass for DAJ and Luka and everyone else. He's their main rim protector. Advance stats are not only black and white, there is a grey area as well and that's eye test.

Doncic coming in was never suppose to be a great defender, whole universe knew this and they accepted that. Still he is not the reason they are losing more than they should have. Like you said, you only watched some games, so no point even debating about this.

Kleber is doing a good job. He’s a good find. And yes Luka is a ball handler but he does not play point guard. Especially defensively. Defensively he is a 4 that doesn’t protect the rim, box out, or defend the perimeter.

A 6'7 point guard is meant to be a rim protector now? And how are you going to tell Mavs fans what position Luka plays? He's the point guard right now offensively, that's not really disputable. The fact that he guards the oppositions worst wing (not in anyway relevant to say he's a 4 defensively in todays positionless basketball where switches for favourable matchups happen regularly, and most 4's are out on the perimeter anyway), does mean he's not looking at all NBA defensive teams anytime soon, but it doesn't mean he's a bad defender by any stretch, and there's no stats that point to him being a bad defender either, unless you want to cherry pick stats like you are doing. Not to mention very few rookies come into the NBA as great defenders in their first season.

The fact is that only someone who doesn't watch DAJ and the Mavs play regularly would ever call DAJ a good defender. He's a turnstile defensively, who only plays defense when the ball comes both to a specific location and within a specific range, and if it doesn't meet those criteria, he might as well not even be on the court. He almost never plays help defense. IMO a lot of opposing players still treat DAJ as though he's even close to the defender he was 4 or 5 years ago, which he isn't (and I'm someone who thinks he was overrated defensively even in his prime defensive years). Given how little he actually challenges shots, it's suprising opposition don't attack the rim even more than they do, and I think it's all reputation based right now, because there's no actual evidence of his high level defensive abilities appearing on the court this season.

[LukaV]

Regardless of how impressed I've been with Luka's play this season, I am a bit bothered by his lack of defensive box-outs. I didn't like his chasing defensive rebounds instead of boxing out his man when it was happening last year in Europe, nor do I like it now. As someone who played basketball quite a lot, I view boxing out your man as basketball 101.

But I suppose the Mavs did a cost/benefit analysis and determined that the occasional offensive rebound gained by Luka's main is less important than Luka getting a few more defensive rebounds and immediately starting the counter attack.

[KingDavid]

Quotes like this are why I think other players may not want to play with Doncic.

What?

Just let it go. Man...

[Archx]

Regardless of how impressed I've been with Luka's play this season, I am a bit bothered by his lack of defensive box-outs. I didn't like his chasing defensive rebounds instead of boxing out his man when it was happening last year in Europe, nor do I like it now. As someone who played basketball quite a lot, I view boxing out your man as basketball 101.

But I suppose the Mavs did a cost/benefit analysis and determined that the occasional offensive rebound gained by Luka's main is less important than Luka getting a few more defensive rebounds and immediately starting the counter attack.

Now this is something i do agree with and i also pointed out couple out times during the season. I don't know what kind of agreement they have but he should box out more. But it's funny when i watch other teams, they are also just are looking at the ball and rarely you see anyone box out either. It's like a player trust his athletic ability enough to just go up there and get the ball.

[XTraderXL]

DaJ should not be criticized by Doncic fans....

Quotes like this are why I think other players may not want to play with Doncic.

Deandre Jordan has a -7.2 defensive field goal percentage for players within 6 ft. Meaning opponents shoot over 7% less with Jordan guarding them. DeAndre Jordan averages 5.7 defensive boxouts a game. If a player gets by the guards DJ averages 1.0 block a game.

By comparison, Doncic has a plus 5.1% defensive field goal percentage for players within 6 ft. And despite playing the 4, Luka chases rebounds and rarely boxes out his man. Luka averages .7 defensive box outs a game. Luka isn’t much help protecting the rim either averaging .3 blocks a game.

In short, DJ is covering Luka’s ass on defense with little help. If Luka were playing the 3 and defending the perimeter than these numbers wouldn’t matter. But he rarely guards on the perimeter in the games I saw and is a defensive sieve whose sole job is to chase rebounds while others box out.

What are you talking about? Luka is a PG not PF. Kleber is the one who is covering ass for DAJ and Luka and everyone else. He's their main rim protector. Advance stats are not only black and white, there is a grey area as well and that's eye test.

Doncic coming in was never suppose to be a great defender, whole universe knew this and they accepted that. Still he is not the reason they are losing more than they should have. Like you said, you only watched some games, so no point even debating about this.

Kleber is doing a good job. He’s a good find. And yes Luka is a ball handler but he does not play point guard. Especially defensively. Defensively he is a 4 that doesn’t protect the rim, box out, or defend the perimeter.

Some of the things you are saying are correct but Luka being a PF is completey wrong. He has been playing PG on offense for about half of the season now and is very rarely guarding PFs. He is mostly guarding SGs and SFs so I dont know what you have been watching.

But you are correct in that he doesnt put much effort in defense. Also his transition defense is trash, he doesnt even try most of the time. About chasing rebounds, DAj is the one doing it. Many times it happens that Luka could go for the rebound but lets DAJ get it even if Luka is closer to the ball. Watch the games mate.

[Dacost]

JJJ body still growing and he doesn't know how to control yet plus he makes dumb mistakes 19 year olds usually do.

With that said he has the highest ceiling of all rookies right now and noone is even close.

[mabundo_nagumbe]

With that said he has the highest ceiling of all rookies right now and noone is even close.

How did you measure that? You sound so convinced you must have very good arguments for that.

[BAMAFREAK]

JJJ body still growing and he doesn't know how to control yet plus he makes dumb mistakes 19 year olds usually do.

With that said he has the highest ceiling of all rookies right now and noone is even close.

Absolutely, although Doncics ceiling as an initiator and clutch shot maker is there as well.
JJJ has the perfect frame, elite length but still athletic and sturdy legs and mid section. Arms will fill out as well. He morphs around guys to get to the rim with his arms and footwork right now but will be able to go through guys in a year or two.
He can already hit 3s and dominate in the post when it comes to scoring. He has also shown the ability to score off the dribble and drive to the rack. Just needs to develop more in those aspects, which he should naturally.
When it comes to rebounding he simply needs to be more aggressive. When he divides he wants to go after one he usually gets it, hence his contested rebound #s are great. He just has to go after more instead of heading to the other end.
I’d like to see him be more aggressive with the ball and on boards ASAP, and I think we will now that Memphis is pretty much out of it

[Archx]

JJJ body still growing and he doesn't know how to control yet plus he makes dumb mistakes 19 year olds usually do.

With that said he has the highest ceiling of all rookies right now and noone is even close.

Are you aware that Ayton is already averaging 16/11 on 60% FG? Trae and Huerter are coming alive in ATL significantly helping their team getting some strong W's. And let's not forget there is another 19yo rookie out there who is probably already an all star.


If you say that in your opinion JJJ has the highest ceiling, i am ok with that. But when you say it's not even close, i am kinda curios how you got to this conclusion?

[mixerball]

let me see if i got this...doncic should get more rebounds because they simply fall at his feet and deandre easily lets them fall past him even though he said he wants to get every single rebound out there. ok.

[sunsbg]

Regardless of how impressed I've been with Luka's play this season, I am a bit bothered by his lack of defensive box-outs. I didn't like his chasing defensive rebounds instead of boxing out his man when it was happening last year in Europe, nor do I like it now. As someone who played basketball quite a lot, I view boxing out your man as basketball 101.

But I suppose the Mavs did a cost/benefit analysis and determined that the occasional offensive rebound gained by Luka's main is less important than Luka getting a few more defensive rebounds and immediately starting the counter attack.

Now this is something i do agree with and i also pointed out couple out times during the season. I don't know what kind of agreement they have but he should box out more. But it's funny when i watch other teams, they are also just are looking at the ball and rarely you see anyone box out either. It's like a player trust his athletic ability enough to just go up there and get the ball.

Welcome to the NBA where amazing stat padding happens. Fundamentals are not that important.

Btw Luka is benefiting big time from it. Just don't see him being allowed to dribble the air out of the ball in Euroleague game, which he's already doing as a rookie in NBA. That being said I'm glad he's doing so well as he offers much more than flashy plays. Many players can learn from him. It's sad that a player like Simmons for example lacks such basic skill like outside shooting.

[King Ken]

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