Hot Topic - Quite Frankly; All Things Frank

[j4remi]

This article really took everything I've had a problem with, dug into the numbers and laid it all out. Click that ish and read;

https://knicksfilmschool.com/2019/01/23/is-frank-ntilikina-the-answer-to-all-of-david-fizdales-lineup-shuffling/

Stats that I found relevant, and unsurprising

Spoiler:

The team to date now has a -3.5 net rating with Ntilikina as the primary ball handler (that means none of Trey Burke, Allonzo Trier or Mudiay for a total of 289 minutes per Fantasylabs.com).

When Emmanuel Mudiay is the primary ball handler (no Burke, no Frank, no Trier) the team’s net rating is -12.0. per FantasyLabs.com. But those Mudiay lineups have now been used for over 700 minutes. So the Mudiay-led lineup has received about 2.5 times more minutes as the Frank-led lineup while performing almost 3.5 times worse per net rating

A four-player combo of Ntilikina, Dotson, Hardaway, and Vonleh logged 131 minutes with a net rating of -0.3 in the first 15 games, but they’ve only played 8 total minutes over the subsequent 30 games.

Vonleh, Ntilikina, Dotson and Knox have only played 25 minutes together so far this year. Their net rating is +47.4. That number will regress but it’s a signal: there are plenty of combinations that will likely lead to improved play by incorporating more Frank. It’s really remarkable how many lineups he is in that have a slightly positive net rating given how poorly the team has played on the whole

And I agree with anyone saying that those sample sizes are, for the most part, too small to extrapolate. But they should at least be given enough minutes to see if it's for real or just a flash in the pan, not just pushed to the side

I think this sums up my feelings on the situation as well:

Spoiler:

If Mudiay is traded, we may learn the team was just showcasing him for an asset before turning the ship over to Ntilikina.

And of course, if the team plays so badly they wind up drafting Zion Williamson every single measure taken to make that happen will be seen as a stroke of brilliance in hindsight.

But, hypothetically, if the team wanted to win more games or wanted to develop Frank, they’d give him some more burn. The kid has been slowed down and the team has missed his presence, but he hasn’t been stopped. The advanced team stats prove the name Ntilikina just keeps filtering to the top

There's 3 options I can see. Fizdale is either tanking, showcasing Mudiay for a trade, or is just incompetent. My only thing I wanted this year was to see development of the young guys, and it's been a mixed bag so far. However, given Fiz's recent quote about Frank, about his role going forward, I think he understands that Frank can be a valuable piece for us in the future, and is trying to develop him by bringing him along slowly, then when we're trying to win will use him to elevate the play of the rest of the team (like how when you're cooking, salt is essential but never the main ingredient). We'll know for sure in a couple weeks though

nice analogy with the salt. i think we saw glimpses of how salty frank can be with more main ingredients around. had some really impressive games with better players. we'll see. the frank and KP show is fun to me. pacers got all that.

We're in way too much agreement here. I can only dissent on two points here:
- I'm skeptical about Fiz quotes at this point. So I like what he said about Frank but it came right with trade rumors and those kinda contradictions might pop for me because of the Mandela effect but it feels like I keep catching little bits like that where Fiz is selling us on something but his (or the organization's) actions betray the premise.

- Two; I like the salt comparison but...Frank's more like Adobo, makes everything better but people sleep on it.

[cuyankees]

I'm interested in what Frank would need to step up to get to Andre's level on the defensive end.

Andre certainly gets more blocks. So that's one thing, whatever way. ...

Height is hard to guess, hops too. But Andre seems to be ~2inches taller than Frank. Not sure about reach. So .. maybe Frank needs to grow a little, maybe he needs to gamble a little more (would be nice if he could know that wouldn't be punished by being pulled by the coach), maybe he needs to work on power more so his jump has another couple of inches.

After that I'm reaching. Probably from not paying enough attention to Andre's work.

What else should Frank improve, in your view?

To be honest I have not watched much games recently so I am not sure where frank is right now defensively but I would say sometimes he gets too aggressive and ends up in foul trouble. he should probably work on that I guess

lel

I think it is worthwhile looking at Frank's D since there's lots of chat about his O.

I don't accept that he's fallen off since last year in intensity - by eye-test. And actually I don't think, at least at the moment, he's getting into real foul trouble. We could get to the stats, but (i) he's played out of position (on defence) so much and (ii) has such terrible teams on D a lot of the time, so it's really hard to evaluate them.

A couple of places he does get burnt:

(i) JJRedick-style, small, quick-first-step guards rubbing him off (double) screens (but not Russ/DRose/.. ball-dominant PGs) - I talked about this a couple of months ago... Needs work, but also needs to be playing with Mitch/KP/Noah(???) who can step into the gap whilst Frank chases behind.

(ii) When he switches onto a ~6'9" forward who lurks somewhere near the corner of the opposing side of the key from the ball in the post and Frank wants to either (a) switch back to his man or, more often, (b) wants to play help D on someone posting up, and he's not aware of his switched guy cutting to the hoop. (ii) happens about once every 2/2.5 games .. and Frank looks as sour as can be every time it happens and he hasn't gambled for the steal/tie up. That needs work. Also a longer leash to risk - he has consistently been pulled too swiftly for 2 fouls in a half, particularly now that he knows more about the zebra-habits in the nba, imo, although this may be changing as we watch (given last night's game). Although possibly those two things are contradictory.

Other than that I haven't strong criticisms that I can think of right now. But I, for sure, can be missing some (may be even obvious) things.

I'd be truely interested to hear other views - obviously 3to's, but also anyone else's. It would be good to get more concrete opinions rather than just "Frank is better/worse on D than last year".

Want to know how you can spot a bad armchair analyst? When they say Frank has regressed defensively.

Anyone that knows bball and watches his time on the court knows his PnR def, positioning, length and IQ make him the best defensive player on the team and his impact will never show up in a box score.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Read on Twitter

Some more info

very interesting relationship between his usage and net rating there.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Stats that I found relevant, and unsurprising

Spoiler:

And I agree with anyone saying that those sample sizes are, for the most part, too small to extrapolate. But they should at least be given enough minutes to see if it's for real or just a flash in the pan, not just pushed to the side

I think this sums up my feelings on the situation as well:

Spoiler:

There's 3 options I can see. Fizdale is either tanking, showcasing Mudiay for a trade, or is just incompetent. My only thing I wanted this year was to see development of the young guys, and it's been a mixed bag so far. However, given Fiz's recent quote about Frank, about his role going forward, I think he understands that Frank can be a valuable piece for us in the future, and is trying to develop him by bringing him along slowly, then when we're trying to win will use him to elevate the play of the rest of the team (like how when you're cooking, salt is essential but never the main ingredient). We'll know for sure in a couple weeks though

nice analogy with the salt. i think we saw glimpses of how salty frank can be with more main ingredients around. had some really impressive games with better players. we'll see. the frank and KP show is fun to me. pacers got all that.

We're in way too much agreement here. I can only dissent on two points here:
- I'm skeptical about Fiz quotes at this point. So I like what he said about Frank but it came right with trade rumors and those kinda contradictions might pop for me because of the Mandela effect but it feels like I keep catching little bits like that where Fiz is selling us on something but his (or the organization's) actions betray the premise.

- Two; I like the salt comparison but...Frank's more like Adobo, makes everything better but people sleep on it.

[Jeff Van Gully]

and my man said mandela effect! too deep.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Adobo!

[Jalen Bluntson]

Franks Red Hot!! Fiz should put that shyt on everything!!!

Instead...he's been using Bootytank juice!

[Deeeez Knicks]

This article really took everything I've had a problem with, dug into the numbers and laid it all out. Click that ish and read;

https://knicksfilmschool.com/2019/01/23/is-frank-ntilikina-the-answer-to-all-of-david-fizdales-lineup-shuffling/

Stats that I found relevant, and unsurprising

Spoiler:

The team to date now has a -3.5 net rating with Ntilikina as the primary ball handler (that means none of Trey Burke, Allonzo Trier or Mudiay for a total of 289 minutes per Fantasylabs.com).

When Emmanuel Mudiay is the primary ball handler (no Burke, no Frank, no Trier) the team’s net rating is -12.0. per FantasyLabs.com. But those Mudiay lineups have now been used for over 700 minutes. So the Mudiay-led lineup has received about 2.5 times more minutes as the Frank-led lineup while performing almost 3.5 times worse per net rating

A four-player combo of Ntilikina, Dotson, Hardaway, and Vonleh logged 131 minutes with a net rating of -0.3 in the first 15 games, but they’ve only played 8 total minutes over the subsequent 30 games.

Vonleh, Ntilikina, Dotson and Knox have only played 25 minutes together so far this year. Their net rating is +47.4. That number will regress but it’s a signal: there are plenty of combinations that will likely lead to improved play by incorporating more Frank. It’s really remarkable how many lineups he is in that have a slightly positive net rating given how poorly the team has played on the whole

And I agree with anyone saying that those sample sizes are, for the most part, too small to extrapolate. But they should at least be given enough minutes to see if it's for real or just a flash in the pan, not just pushed to the side

I think this sums up my feelings on the situation as well:

Spoiler:

If Mudiay is traded, we may learn the team was just showcasing him for an asset before turning the ship over to Ntilikina.

And of course, if the team plays so badly they wind up drafting Zion Williamson every single measure taken to make that happen will be seen as a stroke of brilliance in hindsight.

But, hypothetically, if the team wanted to win more games or wanted to develop Frank, they’d give him some more burn. The kid has been slowed down and the team has missed his presence, but he hasn’t been stopped. The advanced team stats prove the name Ntilikina just keeps filtering to the top

There's 3 options I can see. Fizdale is either tanking, showcasing Mudiay for a trade, or is just incompetent. My only thing I wanted this year was to see development of the young guys, and it's been a mixed bag so far. However, given Fiz's recent quote about Frank, about his role going forward, I think he understands that Frank can be a valuable piece for us in the future, and is trying to develop him by bringing him along slowly, then when we're trying to win will use him to elevate the play of the rest of the team (like how when you're cooking, salt is essential but never the main ingredient). We'll know for sure in a couple weeks though

The key imo has always been defense. If there was an identity to build with this roster, it would have been defense beginning with the starting lineup.

We kind of went the opposite way. Some of our “offensive players” are just so bad on defense and at other things it really kills us. Plus they aren’t even that good on offense.

At least the losses help our chances so I am not too upset.

[springcadre]

0-5 in a winnable game, get this bust out of here, ship him back to that b-tier French club for some undersized white guys that can at least hit a jump shot


As you wish....

[thebuzzardman]

0-5 in a winnable game, get this bust out of here, ship him back to that b-tier French club for some undersized white guys that can at least hit a jump shot

Yup. You a Celtics fan.

[Thugger HBC]

0-5 in a winnable game, get this bust out of here, ship him back to that b-tier French club for some undersized white guys that can at least hit a jump shot

As you wish....

[thebuzzardman]

0-5 in a winnable game, get this bust out of here, ship him back to that b-tier French club for some undersized white guys that can at least hit a jump shot

As you wish....

Uh oh, here comes the ban hammer!

[Capn'O]

Just missed 'im...

[NYKAL]

0-5 in a winnable game, get this bust out of here, ship him back to that b-tier French club for some undersized white guys that can at least hit a jump shot

As you wish....

Uh oh, here comes the ban hammer!

yeah, he should have at least added a smiley face to take some of the bitterness out of it. Scoring is just one aspect of the game. His defense right now is far more valuable on this roster and going forward than his offense at the 1 will likely ever be. Hell, if Frank became a big scorer guys would complain that he's looking for his own shot too much.

A guy like Frank.....I don't believe his value can ever really show on a poor team. Surround him with better players and he'd be the ultimate glue guy. Good defense, unselfish and able to make a good pass when the opportunity presents itself. This is coming from a guy that has been critical of him all season.

[thebuzzardman]

As you wish....

Uh oh, here comes the ban hammer!

yeah, he should have at least added a smiley face to take some of the bitterness out of it. Scoring is just one aspect of the game. His defense right now is far more valuable on this roster and going forward than his offense at the 1 will likely ever be. Hell, if Frank became a big scorer guys would complain that he's looking for his own shot too much.

A guy like Frank.....I don't believe his value can ever really show on a poor team. Surround him with better players and he'd be the ultimate glue guy. Good defense, unselfish and able to make a good pass when the opportunity presents itself. This is coming from a guy that has been critical of him all season.

Frank could hurt a good team by being an unreliable shooter to go with a somewhat shaky driving the ball game. If he was starting. I'd agree with you that what he does, even right now, would fit better on a better team - but in a limited role off the bench.
The amount he can have a larger role on a good team starts with reliability of his jumper, which I think unlocks his driving game. He's not by nature that twitchy player who'll just take it in on people. He's going to have to me that slower/smarter kind of player where the very consistent jumper sets up a guy overplaying him, and then he uses some change of pace stuff and height to succeed more 10 feet on in.

Will it happen? Who knows. I'd just prefer the Knicks wait 3 years, at least to find out. Or to the end of his rookie deal.

I've been dogging Mitch, but it's only because it's funny he gets a pass. Knox is a mixed bag in terms of criticism here.

NBA/College is in "one and done" land and trending towards ways for guys to skip college, do a year in the D-League etc.

Lots of picks are going to be 3 and 4 year projects.
NBA acknowledges this by expanding the roster and changing how teams can shuttle between the G-League and the NBA.
Not sure all the fans get it

Maybe at some point it becomes acceptable to players/agents/everyone that even a guy drafted high and signed for millions could spend a year or two in the G-League. You know, how baseball players get drafted, signed for a million dollar bonus, and spend 3 -4 years in the minors. Some variation on that.

Westchester Knicks with:
Frank/Mitch/Zo/Dot/Knox playing 35 mpg. For a year. Things like that.

[NYKAL]

Uh oh, here comes the ban hammer!

yeah, he should have at least added a smiley face to take some of the bitterness out of it. Scoring is just one aspect of the game. His defense right now is far more valuable on this roster and going forward than his offense at the 1 will likely ever be. Hell, if Frank became a big scorer guys would complain that he's looking for his own shot too much.

A guy like Frank.....I don't believe his value can ever really show on a poor team. Surround him with better players and he'd be the ultimate glue guy. Good defense, unselfish and able to make a good pass when the opportunity presents itself. This is coming from a guy that has been critical of him all season.

Frank could hurt a good team by being an unreliable shooter to go with a somewhat shaky driving the ball game. If he was starting. I'd agree with you that what he does, even right now, would fit better on a better team - but in a limited role off the bench.
The amount he can have a larger role on a good team starts with reliability of his jumper, which I think unlocks his driving game. He's not by nature that twitchy player who'll just take it in on people. He's going to have to me that slower/smarter kind of player where the very consistent jumper sets up a guy overplaying him, and then he uses some change of pace stuff and height to succeed more 10 feet on in.

Will it happen? Who knows. I'd just prefer the Knicks wait 3 years, at least to find out. Or to the end of his rookie deal.

I've been dogging Mitch, but it's only because it's funny he gets a pass. Knox is a mixed bag in terms of criticism here.

NBA/College is in "one and done" land and trending towards ways for guys to skip college, do a year in the D-League etc.

Lots of picks are going to be 3 and 4 year projects.
NBA acknowledges this by expanding the roster and changing how teams can shuttle between the G-League and the NBA.
Not sure all the fans get it

Maybe at some point it becomes acceptable to players/agents/everyone that even a guy drafted high and signed for millions could spend a year or two in the G-League. You know, how baseball players get drafted, signed for a million dollar bonus, and spend 3 -4 years in the minors. Some variation on that.

Westchester Knicks with:
Frank/Mitch/Zo/Dot/Knox playing 35 mpg. For a year. Things like that.

yeah, totally agree about him potentially hurting a team with extended minutes. I wouldn't peg him into the starting lineup or bench but, use him situationally (is that even a word?) , if not hope it gets my point across

[GONYK]

Read on Twitter

[thebuzzardman]

yeah, he should have at least added a smiley face to take some of the bitterness out of it. Scoring is just one aspect of the game. His defense right now is far more valuable on this roster and going forward than his offense at the 1 will likely ever be. Hell, if Frank became a big scorer guys would complain that he's looking for his own shot too much.

A guy like Frank.....I don't believe his value can ever really show on a poor team. Surround him with better players and he'd be the ultimate glue guy. Good defense, unselfish and able to make a good pass when the opportunity presents itself. This is coming from a guy that has been critical of him all season.

Frank could hurt a good team by being an unreliable shooter to go with a somewhat shaky driving the ball game. If he was starting. I'd agree with you that what he does, even right now, would fit better on a better team - but in a limited role off the bench.
The amount he can have a larger role on a good team starts with reliability of his jumper, which I think unlocks his driving game. He's not by nature that twitchy player who'll just take it in on people. He's going to have to me that slower/smarter kind of player where the very consistent jumper sets up a guy overplaying him, and then he uses some change of pace stuff and height to succeed more 10 feet on in.

Will it happen? Who knows. I'd just prefer the Knicks wait 3 years, at least to find out. Or to the end of his rookie deal.

I've been dogging Mitch, but it's only because it's funny he gets a pass. Knox is a mixed bag in terms of criticism here.

NBA/College is in "one and done" land and trending towards ways for guys to skip college, do a year in the D-League etc.

Lots of picks are going to be 3 and 4 year projects.
NBA acknowledges this by expanding the roster and changing how teams can shuttle between the G-League and the NBA.
Not sure all the fans get it

Maybe at some point it becomes acceptable to players/agents/everyone that even a guy drafted high and signed for millions could spend a year or two in the G-League. You know, how baseball players get drafted, signed for a million dollar bonus, and spend 3 -4 years in the minors. Some variation on that.

Westchester Knicks with:
Frank/Mitch/Zo/Dot/Knox playing 35 mpg. For a year. Things like that.

yeah, totally agree about him potentially hurting a team with extended minutes. I wouldn't peg him into the starting lineup or bench but, use him situationally (is that even a word?) , if not hope it gets my point across

Yup. On a bad team like this one, he should be getting minutes. Basically he is. On a good team, it would be more situational and be a good fit, better than some guys with more flair but less fundamental. And the degree to which he could contribute more is based on what/if offensive strides he makes in the next few years, but especially starting with consistency of hitting open jumper.

[NYKAL]

Read on Twitter

no, it was needed to secure the tank. Good Job Fiz, keep the tank rolling along

[Capn'O]

Read on Twitter