Game 50: Portland TrailBlazers at Phoenix Suns - Thursday Jan 24th, 7PM MST

[realsunsfan]

Honest question. Why do some people on this board flip flop on their opinions of our players so much? I read posts from games in the past Warren is amazing and now he sucks. In the past Oubre was an amazing addition and now he sucks. Drives me nuts. Vent over. You will now be returned to your regular scheduled programming.

Welcome to this board....LOL.....might as well get used to it....

It is mainly because we are losing. Winning changes everything.

Interesting side note: near the end of the Nash era where many were saying we should lose on purpose to get high picks, and I said that creating a losing culture could put us in a long losing cycle. I am afraid that is where we are at. We had one spike where oddly 48 wins still didnt get us into the playoffs, but other than that, the culture seems to have been created, and I dont see the light at the end of this tunnel.

RDG I don't see that light either. Now this may be because I am so tired of watching this total disaster of a team play day in and day out, but I am beginning to think in light of the recent comments from James Jones and the lack of any attempt to improve this team, I can see us just making no changes and riding out the year, firing the coaching staff and starting all over with James bringing in his people. Our average age of rotation players is what 22?? So unless he brings in established vets to play and teach this young team it will be many more years of the same thing we are watching now, and without said vets, who on our roster is even able to teach these young point guards how to be point guards in todays NBA ?? How do they become winners playing in a losing culture? It's ridiculous for anyone to think we can be a winning team or even an even 500 team playing 3 rooks significant minutes let alone starting. We have been on this "tank" marathon for a few years now, got an upcoming all star caliber player in book, got the #1 overall pick in Ayton, but surrounded them with end of bench guys. If you really look at it, we are depending 4 rookies if you include coach KOKO. A recipe for disaster as we have been watching.

So think about all the conversations that have been had on this board about adding this guy or that guy, waiting for free agency, trades wont help us because we can't get more young guys to blend and grow with the young guys we already have ect…… I am beginning to think James Jones is looking to clean the coaching staff house and start over with his people (players and coaches). Because if we don't get some top experience to lead and teach this young team, how and what are they going to learn ???
Can't keep having the blind leading the blind.....

[bwgood77]

Welcome to this board....LOL.....might as well get used to it....

It is mainly because we are losing. Winning changes everything.

Interesting side note: near the end of the Nash era where many were saying we should lose on purpose to get high picks, and I said that creating a losing culture could put us in a long losing cycle. I am afraid that is where we are at. We had one spike where oddly 48 wins still didnt get us into the playoffs, but other than that, the culture seems to have been created, and I dont see the light at the end of this tunnel.

RDG I don't see that light either. Now this may be because I am so tired of watching this total disaster of a team play day in and day out, but I am beginning to think in light of the recent comments from James Jones and the lack of any attempt to improve this team, I can see us just making no changes and riding out the year, firing the coaching staff and starting all over with James bringing in his people. Our average age of rotation players is what 22?? So unless he brings in established vets to play and teach this young team it will be many more years of the same thing we are watching now, and without said vets, who on our roster is even able to teach these young point guards how to be point guards in todays NBA ?? How do they become winners playing in a losing culture? It's ridiculous for anyone to think we can be a winning team or even an even 500 team playing 3 rooks significant minutes let alone starting. We have been on this "tank" marathon for a few years now, got an upcoming all star caliber player in book, got the #1 overall pick in Ayton, but surrounded them with end of bench guys. If you really look at it, we are depending 4 rookies if you include coach KOKO. A recipe for disaster as we have been watching.

So think about all the conversations that have been had on this board about adding this guy or that guy, waiting for free agency, trades wont help us because we can't get more young guys to blend and grow with the young guys we already have ect…… I am beginning to think James Jones is looking to clean the coaching staff house and start over with his people (players and coaches). Because if we don't get some top experience to lead and teach this young team, how and what are they going to learn ???
Can't keep having the blind leading the blind.....

James Jones was very much part of the hiring decision and based on the recent comments from Gina Mizell on a podcast it sounds like they are going to give him quite a bit of time and back him. Which they should because part of the reason these players can't improve is an revolving coaching staff.

[realsunsfan]

It is mainly because we are losing. Winning changes everything.

Interesting side note: near the end of the Nash era where many were saying we should lose on purpose to get high picks, and I said that creating a losing culture could put us in a long losing cycle. I am afraid that is where we are at. We had one spike where oddly 48 wins still didnt get us into the playoffs, but other than that, the culture seems to have been created, and I dont see the light at the end of this tunnel.

RDG I don't see that light either. Now this may be because I am so tired of watching this total disaster of a team play day in and day out, but I am beginning to think in light of the recent comments from James Jones and the lack of any attempt to improve this team, I can see us just making no changes and riding out the year, firing the coaching staff and starting all over with James bringing in his people. Our average age of rotation players is what 22?? So unless he brings in established vets to play and teach this young team it will be many more years of the same thing we are watching now, and without said vets, who on our roster is even able to teach these young point guards how to be point guards in todays NBA ?? How do they become winners playing in a losing culture? It's ridiculous for anyone to think we can be a winning team or even an even 500 team playing 3 rooks significant minutes let alone starting. We have been on this "tank" marathon for a few years now, got an upcoming all star caliber player in book, got the #1 overall pick in Ayton, but surrounded them with end of bench guys. If you really look at it, we are depending 4 rookies if you include coach KOKO. A recipe for disaster as we have been watching.

So think about all the conversations that have been had on this board about adding this guy or that guy, waiting for free agency, trades wont help us because we can't get more young guys to blend and grow with the young guys we already have ect…… I am beginning to think James Jones is looking to clean the coaching staff house and start over with his people (players and coaches). Because if we don't get some top experience to lead and teach this young team, how and what are they going to learn ???
Can't keep having the blind leading the blind.....

James Jones was very much part of the hiring decision and based on the recent comments from Gina Mizell on a podcast it sounds like they are going to give him quite a bit of time and back him. Which they should because part of the reason these players can't improve is an revolving coaching staff.

That hire was made under Mcdonogh, not sure how much influence James Jones had in that.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

[bwgood77]

RDG I don't see that light either. Now this may be because I am so tired of watching this total disaster of a team play day in and day out, but I am beginning to think in light of the recent comments from James Jones and the lack of any attempt to improve this team, I can see us just making no changes and riding out the year, firing the coaching staff and starting all over with James bringing in his people. Our average age of rotation players is what 22?? So unless he brings in established vets to play and teach this young team it will be many more years of the same thing we are watching now, and without said vets, who on our roster is even able to teach these young point guards how to be point guards in todays NBA ?? How do they become winners playing in a losing culture? It's ridiculous for anyone to think we can be a winning team or even an even 500 team playing 3 rooks significant minutes let alone starting. We have been on this "tank" marathon for a few years now, got an upcoming all star caliber player in book, got the #1 overall pick in Ayton, but surrounded them with end of bench guys. If you really look at it, we are depending 4 rookies if you include coach KOKO. A recipe for disaster as we have been watching.

So think about all the conversations that have been had on this board about adding this guy or that guy, waiting for free agency, trades wont help us because we can't get more young guys to blend and grow with the young guys we already have ect…… I am beginning to think James Jones is looking to clean the coaching staff house and start over with his people (players and coaches). Because if we don't get some top experience to lead and teach this young team, how and what are they going to learn ???
Can't keep having the blind leading the blind.....

James Jones was very much part of the hiring decision and based on the recent comments from Gina Mizell on a podcast it sounds like they are going to give him quite a bit of time and back him. Which they should because part of the reason these players can't improve is an revolving coaching staff.

That hire was made under Mcdonogh, not sure how much influence James Jones had in that.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

I read at some point that all three Sarver, Jones and McD had equal input or something along those lines. Anyway, I'll be surprised if they get rid of another guy this quickly and start over again. It would be VERY hard to find a good candidate with the reputation and coaching turnover and there would likely be a ton more negative publicity.

[realsunsfan]

James Jones was very much part of the hiring decision and based on the recent comments from Gina Mizell on a podcast it sounds like they are going to give him quite a bit of time and back him. Which they should because part of the reason these players can't improve is an revolving coaching staff.

That hire was made under Mcdonogh, not sure how much influence James Jones had in that.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

I read at some point that all three Sarver, Jones and McD had equal input or something along those lines. Anyway, I'll be surprised if they get rid of another guy this quickly and start over again. It would be VERY hard to find a good candidate with the reputation and coaching turnover and there would likely be a ton more negative publicity.

Not sure how much more negative we can get as 11 win team …..well I guess we could have 0 wins, that would be more negative.

[bwgood77]

That hire was made under Mcdonogh, not sure how much influence James Jones had in that.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

I read at some point that all three Sarver, Jones and McD had equal input or something along those lines. Anyway, I'll be surprised if they get rid of another guy this quickly and start over again. It would be VERY hard to find a good candidate with the reputation and coaching turnover and there would likely be a ton more negative publicity.

Not sure how much more negative we can get as 11 win team …..well I guess we could have 0 wins, that would be more negative.

Yeah, but it's more about roster construction, no PGs or PFs and 4 rookies in 8 man rotation. Regardless of who is coach, it likely doesn't make much difference, particularly with the injuries we've had. It's been more about player development though, which I feel has been fairly solid for the most part.

[realsunsfan]

I read at some point that all three Sarver, Jones and McD had equal input or something along those lines. Anyway, I'll be surprised if they get rid of another guy this quickly and start over again. It would be VERY hard to find a good candidate with the reputation and coaching turnover and there would likely be a ton more negative publicity.

Not sure how much more negative we can get as 11 win team …..well I guess we could have 0 wins, that would be more negative.

Yeah, but it's more about roster construction, no PGs or PFs and 4 rookies in 8 man rotationThis says a lot right here). Regardless of who is coach, it likely doesn't make much difference, particularly with the injuries we've had. It's been more about player development though, which I feel has been fairly solid for the most part.

That is where really disagree, I don't see much development in melton, okobo, bridges, Koko for being regarded as a shooting coach that fixed Rubios shot for a time, Bridges shooting stunk we came in and still stinks today, should have shown some (ANY) improvement by now. I would be okay if not happy to see one or all three go bye-bye, I just don't care for any of the three. Okobo maybe can develop down the road....maybe

[RunDogGun]

Welcome to this board....LOL.....might as well get used to it....

It is mainly because we are losing. Winning changes everything.

Interesting side note: near the end of the Nash era where many were saying we should lose on purpose to get high picks, and I said that creating a losing culture could put us in a long losing cycle. I am afraid that is where we are at. We had one spike where oddly 48 wins still didnt get us into the playoffs, but other than that, the culture seems to have been created, and I dont see the light at the end of this tunnel.

RDG I don't see that light either. Now this may be because I am so tired of watching this total disaster of a team play day in and day out, but I am beginning to think in light of the recent comments from James Jones and the lack of any attempt to improve this team, I can see us just making no changes and riding out the year, firing the coaching staff and starting all over with James bringing in his people. Our average age of rotation players is what 22?? So unless he brings in established vets to play and teach this young team it will be many more years of the same thing we are watching now, and without said vets, who on our roster is even able to teach these young point guards how to be point guards in todays NBA ?? How do they become winners playing in a losing culture? It's ridiculous for anyone to think we can be a winning team or even an even 500 team playing 3 rooks significant minutes let alone starting. We have been on this "tank" marathon for a few years now, got an upcoming all star caliber player in book, got the #1 overall pick in Ayton, but surrounded them with end of bench guys. If you really look at it, we are depending 4 rookies if you include coach KOKO. A recipe for disaster as we have been watching.

So think about all the conversations that have been had on this board about adding this guy or that guy, waiting for free agency, trades wont help us because we can't get more young guys to blend and grow with the young guys we already have ect…… I am beginning to think James Jones is looking to clean the coaching staff house and start over with his people (players and coaches). Because if we don't get some top experience to lead and teach this young team, how and what are they going to learn ???
Can't keep having the blind leading the blind.....

We need to allow a coach to establish a culture. We can pick great players in the draft, but put them in an environment where they learn bad behaviors. Hero ball is currently hurting this team.

I dont like using the word "tank", it has connotations attached to it, but we continue to have too much turnover in our system. I am concerned Jones is going to clean house, for we keep destroying our foundation.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Honest question. Why do some people on this board flip flop on their opinions of our players so much? I read posts from games in the past Warren is amazing and now he sucks. In the past Oubre was an amazing addition and now he sucks. Drives me nuts. Vent over. You will now be returned to your regular scheduled programming.

Welcome to this board....LOL.....might as well get used to it....

It is mainly because we are losing. Winning changes everything.

Interesting side note: near the end of the Nash era where many were saying we should lose on purpose to get high picks, and I said that creating a losing culture could put us in a long losing cycle. I am afraid that is where we are at. We had one spike where oddly 48 wins still didnt get us into the playoffs, but other than that, the culture seems to have been created, and I dont see the light at the end of this tunnel.

I was in that camp. Ha! Perhaps as a Suns fan I was blinded, for I didn't know what a "losing culture" was. Winning is easy! Just get good players! The worry was getting too good but not good enough because you don't get the *best* players. Good job staying ahead of us, RDG.

But to Phnxsports's question... I love TJ Warren and have from the start, but I'm also a fan of Josh Jackson and Oubre. I think that one of Jackson or Warren is the odd man out between the 3. I also think we need a PF almost or about as much as we need a point guard.

Who has more value, TJ or JJ? I think TJ, because you know what you're getting. He's the kind of guy that could put a great team over the top. But on a team with nothing but small forwards, he's put out of position at the 4. Putting Bender at the 4 while he belonged at the 5 was a disservice to him as well.... though that was partly his fault, for declaring so darn early.

Point is, you can love someone and still want to let them go. That's where I am with TJ, if a fair deal can be made.

Similarly, I like both Melton and Okobo. I think Okobo's started to show a lot of growth recently, however, and I don't think you can keep both if you're acquiring a starting PG in trade. Okobo's offensive upside and the contractual issue with Melton makes Okobo the guy I'd keep between the two. Does that mean I'd want to give Melton away? Heck no! Dude's got talent and will be in this league a long time. But Melton + Warren (+ Bender?) should be able to net you some value. Maybe a long-term solution at PG, maybe a long-term solution at PF, maybe both.

This is just what fandom is like when your roster is misconstructed. You love the players, you hate the team. I'll be rooting for James Jones this summer.... I've said it for three straight summers, but I think - again, as I always do - that this is where the road will bend. And I'm looking forward to losing some players I love.

[Saberestar]

I read at some point that all three Sarver, Jones and McD had equal input or something along those lines. Anyway, I'll be surprised if they get rid of another guy this quickly and start over again. It would be VERY hard to find a good candidate with the reputation and coaching turnover and there would likely be a ton more negative publicity.

Not sure how much more negative we can get as 11 win team …..well I guess we could have 0 wins, that would be more negative.

Yeah, but it's more about roster construction, no PGs or PFs and 4 rookies in 8 man rotation. Regardless of who is coach, it likely doesn't make much difference, particularly with the injuries we've had. It's been more about player development though, which I feel has been fairly solid for the most part.

I think that players improve because they are hard workers, have talent and they improve with practice and during summers.

That development because they play some minutes or not in games it is more of a legend than reality.

For example...Chriss played good minutes in his first season and what?

That theory does not make sense and it is a great excuse for bad teams. Bad teams because they can not hire/sign/draft the right guys.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

James Jones was very much part of the hiring decision and based on the recent comments from Gina Mizell on a podcast it sounds like they are going to give him quite a bit of time and back him. Which they should because part of the reason these players can't improve is an revolving coaching staff.

That hire was made under Mcdonogh, not sure how much influence James Jones had in that.

Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

I read at some point that all three Sarver, Jones and McD had equal input or something along those lines. Anyway, I'll be surprised if they get rid of another guy this quickly and start over again. It would be VERY hard to find a good candidate with the reputation and coaching turnover and there would likely be a ton more negative publicity.

I like what I've heard from Jones. I like what he's done with Chandler and Rivers, reinforcing that idea that he's a player's GM. That's what Jerry was and it's a big part of what made him so successful recruiting free agents. I don't yet know what to think about Jones's eye for talent, but sadly it's pretty hard to imagine he could be worse than McD.

I don't really see the need to add a prominent old hand to our front office to guide Jones along. I do, however, want to see our scouting team rebuilt, as I hate the idea of going into big decisions with less info and insight than other teams.

[DroughtsOverPHX]

I read at some point that all three Sarver, Jones and McD had equal input or something along those lines. Anyway, I'll be surprised if they get rid of another guy this quickly and start over again. It would be VERY hard to find a good candidate with the reputation and coaching turnover and there would likely be a ton more negative publicity.

Not sure how much more negative we can get as 11 win team …..well I guess we could have 0 wins, that would be more negative.

Yeah, but it's more about roster construction, no PGs or PFs and 4 rookies in 8 man rotation. Regardless of who is coach, it likely doesn't make much difference, particularly with the injuries we've had. It's been more about player development though, which I feel has been fairly solid for the most part.

It is an amazing mess. Built on hopes, dreams, projections and guesses rather than current ability. We have nobody who wants every loose ball other than Holmes.

[bigfoot]

Welcome to this board....LOL.....might as well get used to it....

It is mainly because we are losing. Winning changes everything.

Interesting side note: near the end of the Nash era where many were saying we should lose on purpose to get high picks, and I said that creating a losing culture could put us in a long losing cycle. I am afraid that is where we are at. We had one spike where oddly 48 wins still didnt get us into the playoffs, but other than that, the culture seems to have been created, and I dont see the light at the end of this tunnel.

RDG I don't see that light either. Now this may be because I am so tired of watching this total disaster of a team play day in and day out, but I am beginning to think in light of the recent comments from James Jones and the lack of any attempt to improve this team, I can see us just making no changes and riding out the year, firing the coaching staff and starting all over with James bringing in his people. Our average age of rotation players is what 22?? So unless he brings in established vets to play and teach this young team it will be many more years of the same thing we are watching now, and without said vets, who on our roster is even able to teach these young point guards how to be point guards in todays NBA ?? How do they become winners playing in a losing culture? It's ridiculous for anyone to think we can be a winning team or even an even 500 team playing 3 rooks significant minutes let alone starting. We have been on this "tank" marathon for a few years now, got an upcoming all star caliber player in book, got the #1 overall pick in Ayton, but surrounded them with end of bench guys. If you really look at it, we are depending 4 rookies if you include coach KOKO. A recipe for disaster as we have been watching.

So think about all the conversations that have been had on this board about adding this guy or that guy, waiting for free agency, trades wont help us because we can't get more young guys to blend and grow with the young guys we already have ect…… I am beginning to think James Jones is looking to clean the coaching staff house and start over with his people (players and coaches). Because if we don't get some top experience to lead and teach this young team, how and what are they going to learn ???
Can't keep having the blind leading the blind.....

If anything Jones should be looking to clean the player roster. Basically we have a bunch of losers who have contributed to the **** culture more than coaches. Players lose games ... not coaches. The problem is we are loaded with ultra-young, athletic players dripping with potential but little-to-no real basketball skills and/or smarts. This game is about shooting plain and simple. Why we drafted players who can't shoot is unimaginable. Yeah they can dunk like a mofo but consistently hitting a two or three point outside shot is way more important.

[bwgood77]

Not sure how much more negative we can get as 11 win team …..well I guess we could have 0 wins, that would be more negative.

Yeah, but it's more about roster construction, no PGs or PFs and 4 rookies in 8 man rotationThis says a lot right here). Regardless of who is coach, it likely doesn't make much difference, particularly with the injuries we've had. It's been more about player development though, which I feel has been fairly solid for the most part.

That is where really disagree, I don't see much development in melton, okobo, bridges, Koko for being regarded as a shooting coach that fixed Rubios shot for a time, Bridges shooting stunk we came in and still stinks today, should have shown some (ANY) improvement by now. I would be okay if not happy to see one or all three go bye-bye, I just don't care for any of the three. Okobo maybe can develop down the road....maybe

Bridges is fine. He is shooting 35% from 3 and will probably get better as he gains comfort with the speed of the game. His defense is great. Melton improved from beginning of season, though he has had a bad couple of games as of late. Okobo has improved as well.

[bwgood77]

Not sure how much more negative we can get as 11 win team …..well I guess we could have 0 wins, that would be more negative.

Yeah, but it's more about roster construction, no PGs or PFs and 4 rookies in 8 man rotation. Regardless of who is coach, it likely doesn't make much difference, particularly with the injuries we've had. It's been more about player development though, which I feel has been fairly solid for the most part.

I think that players improve because they are hard workers, have talent and they improve with practice and during summers.

That development because they play some minutes or not in games it is more of a legend than reality.

For example...Chriss played good minutes in his first season and what?

That theory does not make sense and it is a great excuse for bad teams. Bad teams because they can not hire/sign/draft the right guys.

What I mean is they are learning to play the right way, for the most part. More moving the ball, rotating defensively, trying to get deflections, etc. I don't think Chriss or players the last few years (Jackson last year) were learning much except playing street ball the way you are used to. Jackson for example, seems much more under control as this season has gone on. Oubre has played maybe the best ball of his career. Bender has since he got playing time. Ayton has improved from the beginning. Holmes looks good.