Hot Topic - Quite Frankly; All Things Frank

[BKlutch]

There have been a number of really good comments here on defending Harden. If this Fiz thing doesn't work, maybe the Knicks can crowd source some of their strategy to Real GM. I know we'd do a lot better than Hornacek.

There comes a point where even a guy scoring 75 can hurt the team if it's not efficient shooting along with good D. Ask Jimmer Fredette.

[Capn'O]

I take issue with number three and six. If the belief is Frank struggles with passing and shooting, what should we think about every other guard on the roster? That they are lost cause in passing? Literally the only guard on the roster who seems to be able to play pick and roll is Frank.

And in terms of six. If Frank improves his shot and gets better at passing, he will be a future hall of famer not just a plus backcourt starter.

So your last statement is indeed true. Unless we are getting a championship level talent in a deal (ie the deal directly or indirectly brings KD), it is insane to trade Frank.

The biggest question for me is when did Frank become a bad passer?

When he telegraphs passes and his own defender steals them. That is shameful for a point guard. He has some very bad passing moments for a point. Overall he is not bad, but when he is ... oof. Frank tries to make safe passes all the time, but he lacks creativity and a certain derring do to be really good.

He does have some oof moments.

To the bolded - I think it's just the certain derring (I'm assuming that means daring?) he lacks. Every once in awhile he pulls off something super flashy. He had one look vs. the Rockets where he had it around the foul line, looked towards the corner and fed (Vonleh or Mitch, I forget) underneath as he continued on in the other direction and I was like DAYUM Frank. I didn't even realize he'd passed it. He's had a few others like that. He just doesn't do it much for whatever reason and tries to be Jose Calderon.

One of the more puzzling players I've ever seen. Now can anyone solve the puzzle?

[cgf]

It’s cause guys don’t expect those passes & can’t finish them. He had another one last game on the break when he passed it behind his back to a trailing Kanter who had a wide open lane to the hoop & Enes almost bobbled it. With KP last year he was more adventurous with his passing since he trusted KP to collect them & deliver.

GIve hime time & teammates he can trust with more difficult passes, and he’ll figure it out...though a vet like Jrue / Conley / Kemba to mentor him for the next couple of years, wouldn’t hurt either...

[Capn'O]

It’s cause guys don’t expect those passes & can’t finish them. He had another one last game on the break when he passed it behind his back to a trailing Kanter who had a wide open lane to the hoop & Enes almost bobbled it. With KP last year he was more adventurous with his passing since he trusted KP to collect them & deliver.

GIve hime time & teammates he can trust with more difficult passes, and he’ll figure it out...though a vet like Jrue / Conley / Kemba to mentor him for the next couple of years, wouldn’t hurt either...

Chicken or egg though, right? If he did them more, players would expect them.

[cgf]

It’s cause guys don’t expect those passes & can’t finish them. He had another one last game on the break when he passed it behind his back to a trailing Kanter who had a wide open lane to the hoop & Enes almost bobbled it. With KP last year he was more adventurous with his passing since he trusted KP to collect them & deliver.

GIve hime time & teammates he can trust with more difficult passes, and he’ll figure it out...though a vet like Jrue / Conley / Kemba to mentor him for the next couple of years, wouldn’t hurt either...

Chicken or egg though, right? If he did them more, players would expect them.

Fair, but his confidence has been shaken enough this season as is. So I can't fault him too much for simplifying things rather than letting himself get frustrated with his passing as well as with his shot/finishing-at-the-rim. Hopefully his more confident/comfortable play of late will lead to enough of those creative passes getting converted for guys to start expecting them from Frank and him to start trusting them to be able to work with more difficult passes.

These things are typically "little of column A & a little of column B", especially when talking about the correlation between confidence & results...in either direction, when it's bad it snowballs/spirals, when it's good it builds & becomes a positive feedback loop.

[thebuzzardman]

I don't even know how this "Frank can't pass" is even a thing.

When he gets any minutes at all to develop any sort of timing, his passing is very good. Not "Magic and Kidd" great, but really nice.

And he also is good for a brain lock pass nearly every game, almost always not even in a situation where he's feeding for a score, but some lazy ass cross court reset the offense sort of thing. Basically young guy dumb stuff.

There's enough to criticize in his game without having to invent stuff.

[GONYK]

I take issue with number three and six. If the belief is Frank struggles with passing and shooting, what should we think about every other guard on the roster? That they are lost cause in passing? Literally the only guard on the roster who seems to be able to play pick and roll is Frank.

And in terms of six. If Frank improves his shot and gets better at passing, he will be a future hall of famer not just a plus backcourt starter.

So your last statement is indeed true. Unless we are getting a championship level talent in a deal (ie the deal directly or indirectly brings KD), it is insane to trade Frank.

The biggest question for me is when did Frank become a bad passer?

When he telegraphs passes and his own defender steals them. That is shameful for a point guard. He has some very bad passing moments for a point. Overall he is not bad, but when he is ... oof. Frank tries to make safe passes all the time, but he lacks creativity and a certain derring do to be really good.

That's a long way of saying he can pass, but has bad turnovers sometimes

[HarthorneWingo]

I don't even know how this "Frank can't pass" is even a thing.

When he gets any minutes at all to develop any sort of timing, his passing is very good. Not "Magic and Kidd" great, but really nice.

And he also is good for a brain lock pass nearly every game, almost always not even in a situation where he's feeding for a score, but some lazy ass cross court reset the offense sort of thing. Basically young guy dumb stuff.

There's enough to criticize in his game without having to invent stuff.

This.

Tonight was only Frank's 10th game he started at PG.

[thebuzzardman]

I don't even know how this "Frank can't pass" is even a thing.

When he gets any minutes at all to develop any sort of timing, his passing is very good. Not "Magic and Kidd" great, but really nice.

And he also is good for a brain lock pass nearly every game, almost always not even in a situation where he's feeding for a score, but some lazy ass cross court reset the offense sort of thing. Basically young guy dumb stuff.

There's enough to criticize in his game without having to invent stuff.

This.

Tonight was only Frank's 10th game he started at PG.

A BS variation of this surfaced last year when Frank would absolutely do that one, or even two, mind boggingly dumb passes with like no pressure and just give the ball away, but then guys seemed to want to drive a false narrative with those that "he can't even pass", ignoring the good work in the open floor and P&R's for assists, good hockey passes etc etc. Either this is regurgitating last year's false take or some people just not watching games.

[prophet_of_rage]

The biggest question for me is when did Frank become a bad passer?

When he telegraphs passes and his own defender steals them. That is shameful for a point guard. He has some very bad passing moments for a point. Overall he is not bad, but when he is ... oof. Frank tries to make safe passes all the time, but he lacks creativity and a certain derring do to be really good.

That's a long way of saying he can pass, but has bad turnovers sometimes

It is a reasoned way of saying he's an average passer with bad turnovers.

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk

[robillionaire]

i'm just curious if in any of these 10 games, if he actually lead the team in minutes at the pg position

[HarthorneWingo]

I don't even know how this "Frank can't pass" is even a thing.

When he gets any minutes at all to develop any sort of timing, his passing is very good. Not "Magic and Kidd" great, but really nice.

And he also is good for a brain lock pass nearly every game, almost always not even in a situation where he's feeding for a score, but some lazy ass cross court reset the offense sort of thing. Basically young guy dumb stuff.

There's enough to criticize in his game without having to invent stuff.

This.

Tonight was only Frank's 10th game he started at PG.

A BS variation of this surfaced last year when Frank would absolutely do that one, or even two, mind boggingly dumb passes with like no pressure and just give the ball away, but then guys seemed to want to drive a false narrative with those that "he can't even pass", ignoring the good work in the open floor and P&R's for assists, good hockey passes etc etc. Either this is regurgitating last year's false take or some people just not watching games.

Too many are driven by a bad optic moment which maybe feeds into a prejudgment on the player. I really liked what I saw from Frank in the first quarter. Then he got a quick whistle on one of those first quarter foul calls. Then the third foul was also BS as I recall.

Anyhow, my point was that Fiz isn't giving this kid a chance. If before the season started, someone told you that by January 27, 2019, Frank would start only 10 games at PG, I think we'd all be pretty angry. Fizdale let's Knox play through 3 fouls. Why not Frank? If Frank is going to be an elite defender in this league, then he'll have to learn how to do that. Why not give him that chance now when the games are meaningless, as publicly acknowledged by the organization? Let Frank foul out. Who cares? But these short spurts of playing time are worthless.

[cgmw]

This.

Tonight was only Frank's 10th game he started at PG.

A BS variation of this surfaced last year when Frank would absolutely do that one, or even two, mind boggingly dumb passes with like no pressure and just give the ball away, but then guys seemed to want to drive a false narrative with those that "he can't even pass", ignoring the good work in the open floor and P&R's for assists, good hockey passes etc etc. Either this is regurgitating last year's false take or some people just not watching games.

Too many are driven by a bad optic moment which maybe feeds into a prejudgment on the player. I really liked what I saw from Frank in the first quarter. Then he got a quick whistle on one of those first quarter foul calls. Then the third foul was also BS as I recall.

Anyhow, my point was that Fiz isn't giving this kid a chance. He let's Knox play through 3 fouls. Why not Frank? If Frank is going to be an elite defender in this league, then he'll have to learn how to do that. Why not give him that chance now when the games are meaningless, as publicly acknowledged by the organization? Let Frank foul out. Who cares? But these short spurts of playing time are worthless.

I don't think Fiz is strong enough to have Frank's back publicly. Frank is a soft-spoken baby-faced Frenchman with limited ego. It would take a very strong personality (Phil Jackson, Steve Kerr) to have the balls to take him under wing and be an outright Frank backer/promoter.

His personality (and nationality, frankly) give him very little margin of error in the public eye. The perception is that he's a soft kid who'll have to earn his stripes. If Fiz is seen as giving him preferential treatment, Fiz risks being seen as weak/soft, and Fiz isn't a strong enough persona (yet) to withstand it.

At least with Mudiay, Fiz can point to the razzle/dazzle stats and a sense of second-chance urgency. A more cynical take would be that Fiz is propping up his own ego by bullying the soft-spoken 20 year old, but I don't think that's a fair take.

[cuyankees]

This.

Tonight was only Frank's 10th game he started at PG.

A BS variation of this surfaced last year when Frank would absolutely do that one, or even two, mind boggingly dumb passes with like no pressure and just give the ball away, but then guys seemed to want to drive a false narrative with those that "he can't even pass", ignoring the good work in the open floor and P&R's for assists, good hockey passes etc etc. Either this is regurgitating last year's false take or some people just not watching games.

Too many are driven by a bad optic moment which maybe feeds into a prejudgment on the player. I really liked what I saw from Frank in the first quarter. Then he got a quick whistle on one of those first quarter foul calls. Then the third foul was also BS as I recall.

Anyhow, my point was that Fiz isn't giving this kid a chance. If before the season started, someone told you that by January 27, 2019, Frank would start only 10 games at PG, I think we'd all be pretty angry. Fizdale let's Knox play through 3 fouls. Why not Frank? If Frank is going to be an elite defender in this league, then he'll have to learn how to do that. Why not give him that chance now when the games are meaningless, as publicly acknowledged by the organization? Let Frank foul out. Who cares? But these short spurts of playing time are worthless.

Uhhh, it's part of the "plan" to tank...

Duhhh

[Fat Kat]

This.

Tonight was only Frank's 10th game he started at PG.

A BS variation of this surfaced last year when Frank would absolutely do that one, or even two, mind boggingly dumb passes with like no pressure and just give the ball away, but then guys seemed to want to drive a false narrative with those that "he can't even pass", ignoring the good work in the open floor and P&R's for assists, good hockey passes etc etc. Either this is regurgitating last year's false take or some people just not watching games.

Too many are driven by a bad optic moment which maybe feeds into a prejudgment on the player. I really liked what I saw from Frank in the first quarter. Then he got a quick whistle on one of those first quarter foul calls. Then the third foul was also BS as I recall.

Anyhow, my point was that Fiz isn't giving this kid a chance. If before the season started, someone told you that by January 27, 2019, Frank would start only 10 games at PG, I think we'd all be pretty angry. Fizdale let's Knox play through 3 fouls. Why not Frank? If Frank is going to be an elite defender in this league, then he'll have to learn how to do that. Why not give him that chance now when the games are meaningless, as publicly acknowledged by the organization? Let Frank foul out. Who cares? But these short spurts of playing time are worthless.

Why can’t we use this patient, even keeled approach with every player. Let’s give everyone the same benefit of the doubt that’s seemingly reserved for Frank.

Frank did foul out.

[thebuzzardman]

A BS variation of this surfaced last year when Frank would absolutely do that one, or even two, mind boggingly dumb passes with like no pressure and just give the ball away, but then guys seemed to want to drive a false narrative with those that "he can't even pass", ignoring the good work in the open floor and P&R's for assists, good hockey passes etc etc. Either this is regurgitating last year's false take or some people just not watching games.

Too many are driven by a bad optic moment which maybe feeds into a prejudgment on the player. I really liked what I saw from Frank in the first quarter. Then he got a quick whistle on one of those first quarter foul calls. Then the third foul was also BS as I recall.

Anyhow, my point was that Fiz isn't giving this kid a chance. If before the season started, someone told you that by January 27, 2019, Frank would start only 10 games at PG, I think we'd all be pretty angry. Fizdale let's Knox play through 3 fouls. Why not Frank? If Frank is going to be an elite defender in this league, then he'll have to learn how to do that. Why not give him that chance now when the games are meaningless, as publicly acknowledged by the organization? Let Frank foul out. Who cares? But these short spurts of playing time are worthless.

Why can’t we use this patient, even keeled approach with every player. Let’s give everyone the same benefit of the doubt that’s seemingly reserved for Frank.

Frank did foul out.

Wingo sort of took a general thing about passing and got specific to yesterday's game and a different thing - playing time. Other than stars, who teams bring back in early when though they are in foul trouble, I thought that Fiz mostly played Frank the amount you play a guy in foul trouble in a game, trying to keep that player from fouling out, or they foul out late. Maybe quibble about him coming in a few minutes earlier in the 4th? Not enough time for to care about, really.
Plus, Frank got a few bad calls, but he's got to adjust to the fact the NBA is sort of, well, a p*ssy league now, and defense can't be played all game long.

[Fat Kat]

Too many are driven by a bad optic moment which maybe feeds into a prejudgment on the player. I really liked what I saw from Frank in the first quarter. Then he got a quick whistle on one of those first quarter foul calls. Then the third foul was also BS as I recall.

Anyhow, my point was that Fiz isn't giving this kid a chance. If before the season started, someone told you that by January 27, 2019, Frank would start only 10 games at PG, I think we'd all be pretty angry. Fizdale let's Knox play through 3 fouls. Why not Frank? If Frank is going to be an elite defender in this league, then he'll have to learn how to do that. Why not give him that chance now when the games are meaningless, as publicly acknowledged by the organization? Let Frank foul out. Who cares? But these short spurts of playing time are worthless.

Why can’t we use this patient, even keeled approach with every player. Let’s give everyone the same benefit of the doubt that’s seemingly reserved for Frank.

Frank did foul out.

Wingo sort of took a general thing about passing and got specific to yesterday's game and a different thing - playing time. Other than stars, who teams bring back in early when though they are in foul trouble, I thought that Fiz mostly played Frank the amount you play a guy in foul trouble in a game, trying to keep that player from fouling out, or they foul out late. Maybe quibble about him coming in a few minutes earlier in the 4th? Not enough time for to care about, really.
Plus, Frank got a few bad calls, but he's got to adjust to the fact the NBA is sort of, well, a p*ssy league now, and defense can't be played all game long.

IMO, the Nets made an adjustment and applied more on ball pressure in the 2nd half. That led to Frank being more tentative, and that’s why Fiz went with Burke. 1st half Frank was great. Not only the defense, but the passing and driving. When the Nets challenged his handle, it shook Frank on both ends of the court. Almost like he didn’t want to be on the floor. Saw the same thing with Jeremy Lin when the Heat figured him out. He’ll always defer to another PG on the court. Hopefully this’ll change if he can tighten up his ballhandling.

This is less about Fiz not having faith in Frank, and more about Frank’s doubt in himself.

[thebuzzardman]

Why can’t we use this patient, even keeled approach with every player. Let’s give everyone the same benefit of the doubt that’s seemingly reserved for Frank.

Frank did foul out.

Wingo sort of took a general thing about passing and got specific to yesterday's game and a different thing - playing time. Other than stars, who teams bring back in early when though they are in foul trouble, I thought that Fiz mostly played Frank the amount you play a guy in foul trouble in a game, trying to keep that player from fouling out, or they foul out late. Maybe quibble about him coming in a few minutes earlier in the 4th? Not enough time for to care about, really.
Plus, Frank got a few bad calls, but he's got to adjust to the fact the NBA is sort of, well, a p*ssy league now, and defense can't be played all game long.

IMO, the Nets made an adjustment and applied more on ball pressure in the 2nd half. That led to Frank being more tentative, and that’s why Fiz went with Burke. 1st half Frank was great. Not only the defense, but the passing and driving. When the Nets challenged his handle, it shook Frank on both ends of the court. Almost like he didn’t want to be on the floor. Saw the same thing with Jeremy Lin when the Heat figured him out. He’ll always defer to another PG on the court. Hopefully this’ll change if he can tighten up his ballhandling.

This is less about Fiz not having faith in Frank, and more about Frank’s doubt in himself.

Good points.
I just thought he was cold after sitting.
Also, Fiz could have countered with more picks, no? Just devils advocate, I agree with what you say.

[Fat Kat]

Wingo sort of took a general thing about passing and got specific to yesterday's game and a different thing - playing time. Other than stars, who teams bring back in early when though they are in foul trouble, I thought that Fiz mostly played Frank the amount you play a guy in foul trouble in a game, trying to keep that player from fouling out, or they foul out late. Maybe quibble about him coming in a few minutes earlier in the 4th? Not enough time for to care about, really.
Plus, Frank got a few bad calls, but he's got to adjust to the fact the NBA is sort of, well, a p*ssy league now, and defense can't be played all game long.

IMO, the Nets made an adjustment and applied more on ball pressure in the 2nd half. That led to Frank being more tentative, and that’s why Fiz went with Burke. 1st half Frank was great. Not only the defense, but the passing and driving. When the Nets challenged his handle, it shook Frank on both ends of the court. Almost like he didn’t want to be on the floor. Saw the same thing with Jeremy Lin when the Heat figured him out. He’ll always defer to another PG on the court. Hopefully this’ll change if he can tighten up his ballhandling.

This is less about Fiz not having faith in Frank, and more about Frank’s doubt in himself.

Good points.
I just thought he was cold after sitting.
Also, Fiz could have countered with more picks, no? Just devils advocate, I agree with what you say.

That’s fair. I just think Fiz went with the relatively hot hand in Burke

[21 Hussle]

Why can’t we use this patient, even keeled approach with every player. Let’s give everyone the same benefit of the doubt that’s seemingly reserved for Frank.

Frank did foul out.

Wingo sort of took a general thing about passing and got specific to yesterday's game and a different thing - playing time. Other than stars, who teams bring back in early when though they are in foul trouble, I thought that Fiz mostly played Frank the amount you play a guy in foul trouble in a game, trying to keep that player from fouling out, or they foul out late. Maybe quibble about him coming in a few minutes earlier in the 4th? Not enough time for to care about, really.
Plus, Frank got a few bad calls, but he's got to adjust to the fact the NBA is sort of, well, a p*ssy league now, and defense can't be played all game long.

IMO, the Nets made an adjustment and applied more on ball pressure in the 2nd half. That led to Frank being more tentative, and that’s why Fiz went with Burke. 1st half Frank was great. Not only the defense, but the passing and driving. When the Nets challenged his handle, it shook Frank on both ends of the court. Almost like he didn’t want to be on the floor. Saw the same thing with Jeremy Lin when the Heat figured him out. He’ll always defer to another PG on the court. Hopefully this’ll change if he can tighten up his ballhandling.

This is less about Fiz not having faith in Frank, and more about Frank’s doubt in himself.

I don’t think that was a fair assessment. Nets didn’t make a change on Frank to apply more pressure, he just didn’t play because of fouls. He sat an extended period and when he was put back in Fiz had him defer to Burke.