2018/19 ROY/Rookie Discussion Thread (Pt 2)

[King Ken]

Are you really trying to punish this kid because he has CRAZY passion for the game and gets mad at himself when he plays bad? He ripped that jersey just for the same reason. He plays with the same passion as Russ or Kobe. He's a proven winner since he became a pro at 16yo. If i am a GM, i would be freaking happy that i have a player on my team who is passionate about winning and playing the game. You will never have to worry if he will work hard or anything else. His late game heroics often prove that he is all about getting those W's.

Boogie has the same personality, was Boogie called someone with a "CRAZY" passion for the game or a petulant child? What about like Boogie, that he is both. He is crazy passionate and he is a damn petulant child.

[Oscar9992]

Triple double with 35 Pts from Luka - 35 Pts, 12 Rebs & 10 Assists

Watch on YouTube

[King Ken]

So people honestly think that kids in Europe don't improve past 19 years old?
OMG

Not saying that Luka won't improve, but let's not forget how high people were on Karl-Anthony Towns after his rookie season. Towns looked OK on defense, was hitting shots from all over the mid-range, showed off a nice post game, and was throwing some excellent passes. Towns was probably the most skilled rookie big-man the NBA had seen since Tim Duncan. Towns was an automatic 20-10 in the second half of his rookie season. You can probably find threads from 2015 where posters would proclaim that Towns would one day be the best player in the NBA. Towns has improved quite a bit since his rookie campaign, but he has never really taken the next step into super-stardom that many expected him to.

While I'd imagine that Luka will get better in the future, it's not like there's no precedent for a highly skilled rookie never making the leap into superstardom after balling out in his rookie season.

This is what I am saying. No doubt, Luka is TREMENDOUS. No doubt but I see a sea of red flags and I am saying, this is an issue. I think so many guys want him to do well SO BAD that they are overlooking it just because they are just that big of fans of Luka.

I would be a wrong if I was like, man, Luka suck. He ain't no good. He just getting lucky. That's a hater.

[Oscar9992]

I don't understand how some people still say Baigley & Ayton have the same or even higher ceiling than Doncic, until they prove that it won't be true... But so far Luka is far ahead of anyone in his draft class... I know this is only their first year & anything can happen in future.

[XTraderXL]

So, wait a second. Getting mad at yourself is now a bad thing? I thought that people liked competitiveness.

There is a difference between competitiveness and acting like a damn child when things aren't going your way

Boogie Cousins/Cam Newton to MJ/Magic/Tom Brady for example. There are leaders and there are negative personalities.

Well, you must have forgotten that as a 18 year old leader of Real Madrid he won EL MVP, ACB MVP, EL F4 MVP, ACB Championship, EL Championship and the Spanish Cup. He did all this after Llull went down for basically the season and Luka had to step in for him to lead the team. Besides that he won the Eurobasket and was selected in the All Eurobasket team as an 18 year old as well and one of the team leaders and the youngest player on the team by far. If thats not leadership, I dont know what is.

You have to come up with better reasoning than this, frankly your opinon is plain wrong and has no real basis.

[King Ken]

I don't understand how some people still say Baigley & Ayton have the same or even higher ceiling than Doncic, until they prove that it won't be true... But so far Luka is far ahead of anyone in his draft class... I know this is only their first year & anything can happen in future.

Easy, they can impact winning a lot more when they reach their ceilings. That's why.

Bagley doesn't have one athletic limitation. Guys like that are usually Giannis, Westbrook or MJ. Bagley doesn't have their length both they didn't have his motor.

Ayton is a freak of nature and the game comes so easy to him. He has two way potential and he has the body of an Egyptian god. It's very easy to see those guys being in a lot of Finals one day being the best players in the NBA.

Thing is, those two are raw. They haven't even chipped their potential. They just playing off gas. Not using their mind or experience which both have a high ceiling in. They are physically RARE in a league based on anomalies.

[agentofatlas]

Where is Luka going to get much better at? You guys love saying this but I don't see it.

I talked about it in another one of my replies in this thread. Allow me to quote myself:

Oh, absolutely. People see the huge numbers and assume that he can't improve more but that's just wrong. A deeper look into his numbers will reveal that there are a lot of areas he can improve on. Let's look at his shooting splits -> https://stats.nba.com/player/1629029/shooting/

He is currently shooting 38.3% from the mid-range. He is shooting 35.6% on floaters (driving floating jump shots). He is shooting 36.6% on pull-up jumpers. He is shooting 35.4% on step-back jumpers. He also doesn't have a very good post game yet as evidenced by his numbers on turnaround fade-aways and hooks. He is 6'8 and strong so a post-up game is likely to be a big weapon for him in the future.

Those 5 areas of improvement are quite easy to see and we're still only talking about his scoring. We haven't even started talking about the other areas of his game that he needs to work on (getting into better shape, defense, turnovers etc).

Yes, Luka is way more polished than the average rookie. But that doesn't mean that he can't improve. He is still inefficient in numerous areas. He can improve in every each one of them and up his scoring while retaining or even improving on his efficiency (not at the same time, he'll probably up his scoring first and then work on his efficiency). He can get into better shape which would help his game across the board. He will learn the PG spot better and cut down on some of his turnovers. Defense is another big area where better conditioning and knowing the way NBA offenses play will help him more. He will never become a lock-down defender, obviously, but he can become a net positive defender (kind of how like has done by mainly defending post players, using his strength).

Here is the thing, he will improve. Most skilled base players improve in today's NBA. I seen it across the league they improve at older ages as well. My quarrel is, as I've said in this thread. The improvements I see he needs to make is substantial if being an elite player is his goal. I only see marginal improvement left.

He is extremely polished and has RARE elite skill that hardly even the best in the NBA currently have. We have been knowing this, it's not new.

I don't see him improving this his athletic tools. He is slow. While he has elite footwork, he is slow. Luis Scola and Z-Bo had elite footwork, they never got faster or more athletic. He has just barely enough athletic ability to be on the perimeter on offense and I personally think he's a mess defensively anywhere. His off ball defense with his great defensive instincts is saving his ass. He is always food on switches and teams will focus on wearing him down as time goes. I just don't see it in terms of parts of the game you have to be born with. He clearly has skill that's born, not just created and he is polished but I can see him putting up insane numbers but his team is 38-44 for the next 4 seasons.

You can't call him a baby LeBron if he is this damn unathletic, it's not possible. He is going to have the same issue Pistol had as a NBA player. Teams are going to love the talent, skill and ability but find the fit just odd and not conductive to elite winning.

Luka will be a HOF if healthy, but will he be a winner in the NBA? I doubt it unless Dallas just goes all in with great picks and FA signings. He isn't Dirk, he doesn't fit. Dirk just fits.

Where is the perception that doncic is unathletic coming from anyways?

I've been arguing since his draft thread that he is at least average on that department. He's at least more athletic than Trae and heurter combined lol.

As for Dallas winning well man worry about the Hawks first. At least they know how to win an NBA championship in the modern era.

Also fit? Wtf does that mean? Fit is his probably Luka's greatest strength. You can plug him anywhere.

[Bob8]

So people honestly think that kids in Europe don't improve past 19 years old?
OMG

Not saying that Luka won't improve, but let's not forget how high people were on Karl-Anthony Towns after his rookie season. Towns looked OK on defense, was hitting shots from all over the mid-range, showed off a nice post game, and was throwing some excellent passes. Towns was probably the most skilled rookie big-man the NBA had seen since Tim Duncan. Towns was an automatic 20-10 in the second half of his rookie season. You can probably find threads from 2015 where posters would proclaim that Towns would one day be the best player in the NBA. Towns has improved quite a bit since his rookie campaign, but he has never really taken the next step into super-stardom that many expected him to.

While I'd imagine that Luka will get better in the future, it's not like there's no precedent for a highly skilled rookie never making the leap into superstardom after balling out in his rookie season.

the difference is that he’s 6’8” playmaker, creating for himself and others, and that he basically do almost everything for superstardom already. he for sure can improve his body and conditioning and he for sure can improve his shooting. How will you defend 6’8”, 230, playmaker, with great vision and basketball IQ, who is near elite shooter? You just cannot. Good shooting will make him good athlete too.

[Nuntius]

Where is Luka going to get much better at? You guys love saying this but I don't see it.

I talked about it in another one of my replies in this thread. Allow me to quote myself:

Oh, absolutely. People see the huge numbers and assume that he can't improve more but that's just wrong. A deeper look into his numbers will reveal that there are a lot of areas he can improve on. Let's look at his shooting splits -> https://stats.nba.com/player/1629029/shooting/

He is currently shooting 38.3% from the mid-range. He is shooting 35.6% on floaters (driving floating jump shots). He is shooting 36.6% on pull-up jumpers. He is shooting 35.4% on step-back jumpers. He also doesn't have a very good post game yet as evidenced by his numbers on turnaround fade-aways and hooks. He is 6'8 and strong so a post-up game is likely to be a big weapon for him in the future.

Those 5 areas of improvement are quite easy to see and we're still only talking about his scoring. We haven't even started talking about the other areas of his game that he needs to work on (getting into better shape, defense, turnovers etc).

Yes, Luka is way more polished than the average rookie. But that doesn't mean that he can't improve. He is still inefficient in numerous areas. He can improve in every each one of them and up his scoring while retaining or even improving on his efficiency (not at the same time, he'll probably up his scoring first and then work on his efficiency). He can get into better shape which would help his game across the board. He will learn the PG spot better and cut down on some of his turnovers. Defense is another big area where better conditioning and knowing the way NBA offenses play will help him more. He will never become a lock-down defender, obviously, but he can become a net positive defender (kind of how like has done by mainly defending post players, using his strength).

Here is the thing, he will improve. Most skilled base players improve in today's NBA. I seen it across the league they improve at older ages as well. My quarrel is, as I've said in this thread. The improvements I see he needs to make is substantial if being an elite player is his goal. I only see marginal improvement left.

He is extremely polished and has RARE elite skill that hardly even the best in the NBA currently have. We have been knowing this, it's not new.

I don't see him improving this his athletic tools. He is slow. While he has elite footwork, he is slow. Luis Scola and Z-Bo had elite footwork, they never got faster or more athletic. He has just barely enough athletic ability to be on the perimeter on offense and I personally think he's a mess defensively anywhere. His off ball defense with his great defensive instincts is saving his ass. He is always food on switches and teams will focus on wearing him down as time goes. I just don't see it in terms of parts of the game you have to be born with. He clearly has skill that's born, not just created and he is polished but I can see him putting up insane numbers but his team is 38-44 for the next 4 seasons.

You can't call him a baby LeBron if he is this damn unathletic, it's not possible. He is going to have the same issue Pistol had as a NBA player. Teams are going to love the talent, skill and ability but find the fit just odd and not conductive to elite winning.

Luka will be a HOF if healthy, but will he be a winner in the NBA? I doubt it unless Dallas just goes all in with great picks and FA signings. He isn't Dirk, he doesn't fit. Dirk just fits.

Athleticism isn't just running fast and jumping high. Yes, Luka is lacking in those two areas. Do you know where he is not lacking, though? Changing speeds. Luka is a master of deceleration which is how he is able to get so much separation on these step-back 3s. He is also strong and has elite footwork (as you said yourself).

So, you have a player who isn't extremely quick, who isn't the best leaper but who, on the other hand, is a master of deceleration and also possesses strength and elite footwork. Do you know who else can be described like that? James Harden. He also has those exact same traits. And while one can definitely claim that Harden is faster than Luka, another one could reply that Luka is 3 inches taller than Harden.

Luka isn't baby LeBron and he doesn't play like baby LeBron. But you don't have to play like LeBron to be an MVP-level player. Neither Harden nor Curry are anything like LeBron and they have both won MVP trophies.

As for your argument about his team's record, it doesn't make any sense to me. The Mavs won 24 games last season. They have 22 wins right now and it's not even game 50 for them yet. Sure, they may only finish 38-44 this season but that's still 14 more wins than they had last season. Can you point to any other rookie this season that has helped his team win more games? Because I definitely can't.

[Bob8]

I don't understand how some people still say Baigley & Ayton have the same or even higher ceiling than Doncic, until they prove that it won't be true... But so far Luka is far ahead of anyone in his draft class... I know this is only their first year & anything can happen in future.

Easy, they can impact winning a lot more when they reach their ceilings. That's why.

Bagley doesn't have one athletic limitation. Guys like that are usually Giannis, Westbrook or MJ. Bagley doesn't have their length both they didn't have his motor.

Ayton is a freak of nature and the game comes so easy to him. He has two way potential and he has the body of an Egyptian god. It's very easy to see those guys being in a lot of Finals one day being the best players in the NBA.

Thing is, those two are raw. They haven't even chipped their potential. They just playing off gas. Not using their mind or experience which both have a high ceiling in. They are physically RARE in a league based on anomalies.

Man we will have at least 3 superstars and Luka from this draft.

[Oscar9992]

I don't understand how some people still say Baigley & Ayton have the same or even higher ceiling than Doncic, until they prove that it won't be true... But so far Luka is far ahead of anyone in his draft class... I know this is only their first year & anything can happen in future.

Easy, they can impact winning a lot more when they reach their ceilings. That's why.

Bagley doesn't have one athletic limitation. Guys like that are usually Giannis, Westbrook or MJ. Bagley doesn't have their length both they didn't have his motor.

Ayton is a freak of nature and the game comes so easy to him. He has two way potential and he has the body of an Egyptian god. It's very easy to see those guys being in a lot of Finals one day being the best players in the NBA.

Thing is, those two are raw. They haven't even chipped their potential. They just playing off gas. Not using their mind or experience which both have a high ceiling in. They are physically RARE in a league based on anomalies.

Oden was also considered as some 'freak of nature', 'anomaly' ' & where is he now?

Ayton, Trae & Baigley have to prove they are better than Doncic, so far they are far behind him.

[King Ken]

So, wait a second. Getting mad at yourself is now a bad thing? I thought that people liked competitiveness.

There is a difference between competitiveness and acting like a damn child when things aren't going your way

Boogie Cousins/Cam Newton to MJ/Magic/Tom Brady for example. There are leaders and there are negative personalities.

Well, you must have forgotten that as a 18 year old leader of Real Madrid he won EL MVP, ACB MVP, EL F4 MVP, ACB Championship, EL Championship and the Spanish Cup. He did all this after Llull went down for basically the season and Luka had to step in for him to lead the team. Besides that he won the Eurobasket and was selected in the All Eurobasket team as an 18 year old as well and one of the team leaders and the youngest player on the team by far. If thats not leadership, I dont know what is.

You have to come up with better reasoning than this, frankly your opinon is plain wrong and has no real basis.

That's Europe. He can win there being he is SO MUCH more overwhelming better than everyone and his team right with anyone even without him playing. Let's not act like he was doing this for Gran Carania.

He wasn't a real leader, he was just the best player. That's like saying Duke won a title based on Jahlil Okafor's leadership. Said no one ever. Everyone knows Fernandez is Real's leader.

[agentofatlas]

I don't understand how some people still say Baigley & Ayton have the same or even higher ceiling than Doncic, until they prove that it won't be true... But so far Luka is far ahead of anyone in his draft class... I know this is only their first year & anything can happen in future.

Easy, they can impact winning a lot more when they reach their ceilings. That's why.

Bagley doesn't have one athletic limitation. Guys like that are usually Giannis, Westbrook or MJ. Bagley doesn't have their length both they didn't have his motor.

Ayton is a freak of nature and the game comes so easy to him. He has two way potential and he has the body of an Egyptian god. It's very easy to see those guys being in a lot of Finals one day being the best players in the NBA.

Thing is, those two are raw. They haven't even chipped their potential. They just playing off gas. Not using their mind or experience which both have a high ceiling in. They are physically RARE in a league based on anomalies.

When was the last time a big with no wing capability, led his team to a championship. No wait to the finals. No wait to the conference finals I mean.

The NBA is dominated by wings and guards right now. Partly cause of the rule changes also partly cause of the emphasis on the three ball.

Ayton and Bagely will be great players but you're just being hyperbolic man.

[King Ken]

Oden was also considered as some 'freak of nature', 'anomaly' ' & where is he now?

Ayton, Trae & Baigley have to prove they are better than Doncic, so far they are far behind him.

Injuries. Luka can break his kneecap and a couple seasons later tear his ACL/MCL. Does that mean he wasn't a great prospect? No, it just means he had injuries.

Same with D. Rose, G. Hill, P. Hardaway, etc.

[Nuntius]

So, wait a second. Getting mad at yourself is now a bad thing? I thought that people liked competitiveness.

There is a difference between competitiveness and acting like a damn child when things aren't going your way

Boogie Cousins/Cam Newton to MJ/Magic/Tom Brady for example. There are leaders and there are negative personalities.

XTraderXL's post covered everything I had to say. Luka is a leader and he proved that with Real. When the time goes, he'll prove it with Dallas, too. Heck, he kinda already proved that in that Houston game. Being mad at yourself is a good thing. It isn't acting like a damn child.

[King Ken]

I don't understand how some people still say Baigley & Ayton have the same or even higher ceiling than Doncic, until they prove that it won't be true... But so far Luka is far ahead of anyone in his draft class... I know this is only their first year & anything can happen in future.

Easy, they can impact winning a lot more when they reach their ceilings. That's why.

Bagley doesn't have one athletic limitation. Guys like that are usually Giannis, Westbrook or MJ. Bagley doesn't have their length both they didn't have his motor.

Ayton is a freak of nature and the game comes so easy to him. He has two way potential and he has the body of an Egyptian god. It's very easy to see those guys being in a lot of Finals one day being the best players in the NBA.

Thing is, those two are raw. They haven't even chipped their potential. They just playing off gas. Not using their mind or experience which both have a high ceiling in. They are physically RARE in a league based on anomalies.

When was the last time a big with no wing capability, led his team to a championship. No wait to the finals. No wait to the conference finals I mean.

The NBA is dominated by wings and guards right now. Partly cause of the rule changes also partly cause of the emphasis on the three ball.

Ayton and Bagely will be great players but you're just being hyperbolic man.

Bagley has potential to have perimeter capabilities first of all.

Secondly, this is a superstar driven league. The last superstar center in his prime was Dwight Howard who beat a prime Big 3 Celtics and LeBron's best squad to get to the NBA Finals. We haven't had that since though Embiid is becoming a superstar. Also, Dirk won a title and when was the last time a team didn't have at least an All Star level big that has won a title?

Let's not act like if we didn't have Shaq in the NBA right now, that he wouldn't be winning a title. That's BS. Superstars win titles.

The NBA is dominated right now by great players. Currently, we have them in every position. Just that the majority of superstars right now happen to be wings. Simple as that.

You just want to be right, just because my opinion differs doesn't make me wrong especially if we are predicting the future if everyone is healthy of course.

[Nuntius]

I don't understand how some people still say Baigley & Ayton have the same or even higher ceiling than Doncic, until they prove that it won't be true... But so far Luka is far ahead of anyone in his draft class... I know this is only their first year & anything can happen in future.

Easy, they can impact winning a lot more when they reach their ceilings. That's why.

Bagley doesn't have one athletic limitation. Guys like that are usually Giannis, Westbrook or MJ. Bagley doesn't have their length both they didn't have his motor.

Ayton is a freak of nature and the game comes so easy to him. He has two way potential and he has the body of an Egyptian god. It's very easy to see those guys being in a lot of Finals one day being the best players in the NBA.

Thing is, those two are raw. They haven't even chipped their potential. They just playing off gas. Not using their mind or experience which both have a high ceiling in. They are physically RARE in a league based on anomalies.

Yes, both Ayton and Bagley have tons of potential. There is a reason why they went #1 and #2 in the draft, respectively.

But that doesn't mean that Luka's potential is lower than theirs. It definitely doesn't mean that Luka cannot impact winning a lot more than those two can. He definitely can. He may never become a two-way player like Ayton and Bagley can but you don't have to be a great two-way player to impact winning.

Again, neither Curry nor Harden are two-way players but they've both been MVPs.

[Archx]

If you score or record a 35 point triple double on Kawhi and Green, i don't care how unathletic you are, that's pure skill. And still you do have to have some kind of athleticism in order to do that. He's being guarded by top team defenders on a nightly basis and often sees double teams coming his way at 19yo. I don't think teams showed that much respect to rookie LBJ.

P3 tests have proven over and over again that he is way more athletic than people give him credit for. And if you say Bagley will improve drastically because he can already jump fast ( twice ) then Doncic can sure as hell get more athletic and faster when he starts a proper NBA gym program.
Let's not forget how bulky he was at the start of the season, he could barely jump and now he is dunking over people already. So please stop bringing up his lack of athleticism because it's not true.

[agentofatlas]

Easy, they can impact winning a lot more when they reach their ceilings. That's why.

Bagley doesn't have one athletic limitation. Guys like that are usually Giannis, Westbrook or MJ. Bagley doesn't have their length both they didn't have his motor.

Ayton is a freak of nature and the game comes so easy to him. He has two way potential and he has the body of an Egyptian god. It's very easy to see those guys being in a lot of Finals one day being the best players in the NBA.

Thing is, those two are raw. They haven't even chipped their potential. They just playing off gas. Not using their mind or experience which both have a high ceiling in. They are physically RARE in a league based on anomalies.

When was the last time a big with no wing capability, led his team to a championship. No wait to the finals. No wait to the conference finals I mean.

The NBA is dominated by wings and guards right now. Partly cause of the rule changes also partly cause of the emphasis on the three ball.

Ayton and Bagely will be great players but you're just being hyperbolic man.

Bagley has potential to have perimeter capabilities first of all.

Secondly, this is a superstar driven league. The last superstar center in his prime was Dwight Howard who beat a prime Big 3 Celtics and LeBron's best squad to get to the NBA Finals. We haven't had that since though Embiid is becoming a superstar. Also, Dirk won a title and when was the last time a team didn't have at least an All Star level big that has won a title?

Let's not act like if we didn't have Shaq in the NBA right now, that he wouldn't be winning a title. That's BS. Superstars win titles.

The NBA is dominated right now by great players. Currently, we have them in every position. Just that the superstars right now happen to be wings. Simple as that.

You just want to be right, just because my opinion differs doesn't make me wrong especially if we are predicting the future if everyone is healthy of course.

You are now comparing them to Shaq? Really?

Also all of your examples was like 10 years ago. The last to actually win one was Dirk and he had wing capability meaning he could grab and go or hit the pull up three with ease and volume. I doubt Bagely and Ayton get to that level of a shooter and ball handler.

You just want to be right. Your opinion has no basis on current reality. You are not stating opinions you're just saying things you want to happen.

[Mr B]

Luka stans and their foolishness for a 4th year professional basketball player compared to kids over a year removed from high school.

Bagley is raw. Luka is polished. Wake me when both players are near their peak.

For Bagley, that's in 4 years, for Luka, that's now

You think Luka is near his peak now? And I'm the stan?

Yes. He will be more consistent but he is not getting that much better from here. I watch every game. He is so far ahead of players on the developed element but not where close on the stuff that you are born with.

He is the anti Giannis. Giannis was the worst rookie I've seen his year outside of Dennis Schroder who barely played anyway. Now Giannis is a top 3-5 player.

Where is Luka going to get much better at? You guys love saying this but I don't see it. I always saw a great player in terms of his floor and when I compare him to Pistol who might have been the most polished Amercian to ever enter the NBA as an American, that's me seeing him in ELITE regard. But I don't see this great potential. I don't see a great fit and he has a **** personality as well like a white Boogie Cousins. You guys are making excuses up for him.

I’m a Mavs fan and I can see where you’re coming from. It’s hard to improve on 35/12/10. That doesn’t mean he’s at his ceiling though. Like you said, he will get more consistent. He will get better at the free throw line, his post game will get better, and yes even his shot will get better. I’m not saying or expecting him to improve to average 65/20/20 but I expect his ceiling will be close to averaging a triple/double. He may even have a couple of seasons where he averages a triple/double.

As for Bagley, I also think he will be a good player if he has the right coaching and work ethic. I know he’s known for his motor so I don’t think work ethic will be problem for him. Bagley is still really young. He has time but if he works at it his can improve his shot and his post game. If he averages 25/10 or even 20/10, those are really good numbers. He actually is a perfect fit next to Fox and should be able to play off of each other really well.

The difference is that Luka appears to be a generational talent and no one sees that in Bagley. Not yet anyways. He could be the next Steph Curry, Dirk, or James Harden where he’s a player that works on his game and blows up in his second or third year. Or he could be a caliber of player as Elton Brand who was a very good player for a lot of years.