2018/19 ROY/Rookie Discussion Thread (Pt 2)

[BlueSan]

Luka stans and their foolishness for a 4th year professional basketball player compared to kids over a year removed from high school.

Bagley is raw. Luka is polished. Wake me when both players are near their peak.

For Bagley, that's in 4 years, for Luka, that's now

You think Luka is near his peak now? And I'm the stan?

Yes. He will be more consistent but he is not getting that much better from here. I watch every game. He is so far ahead of players on the developed element but not where close on the stuff that you are born with.

He is the anti Giannis. Giannis was the worst rookie I've seen his year outside of Dennis Schroder who barely played anyway. Now Giannis is a top 3-5 player.

Where is Luka going to get much better at? You guys love saying this but I don't see it. I always saw a great player in terms of his floor and when I compare him to Pistol who might have been the most polished Amercian to ever enter the NBA as an American, that's me seeing him in ELITE regard. But I don't see this great potential. I don't see a great fit and he has a **** personality as well like a white Boogie Cousins. You guys are making excuses up for him.

1. Training/Conditioning - should make him faster, even more explosive
2. Improved shot
3. Improved defense
4. Improved understanding of the game and techniques
...
5. Adding things, moves to his game

Luka has yet to learn correct way of breathing for once, he has problems with guarding screens and i something he can improve a lot.
He will and should improve his ball handling more.
He needs to improve his conditioning in general.
He will get a better and better understanding of the game itself and you can already see the kid is adapting more and more to the pace of the league.


You never stop learning things and basketball players usually peak at aroun 27-32 years old, because amount of experience and training leads to that...

So yeah this kid should and will improve a lot

[King Ken]

The fact that someone says he ripped his jersey because he’s being an a.hole tells me they don’t watch all of his games. He’s not only frustrated with his own game but he’s also upset that he doesn’t get nearly as many calls as he should (and as he will get in the future). He’s getting the rookie treatment from the refs this season and he’s frustrated.

He gets more calls than any other rookie by a mile. Have you watched JJJ with refs? Trae? Ayton? SGA? Sexton? Rookies don't get calls like that and never will. Luka actually gets more of them than the others.

Again, you clear do not watch Mavs games like you claim to. You probably it just watch the highlights. He’s been getting hammered all season with not nearly the amount of calls he should get.

I watched every Mavs game. I live in Texas. I see them all of the time and sometimes twice watching the replay. I have a tremendous feel of Luka's game.

[Mr B]

I hope when my team makes a bad trade instead of taking the generational talent that I don't come on here posting a bunch of nonsense. I'm literally embarrassed for the king here.

Ditto

[AdagioPace]

You mentioned in a previous post that he has different athletic feats that are special. Like what? What is it that Luka does athletically that's great or even very good for his position?
First step?
Speed?
Quickness?
Agility?
Acceleration?
Vertical?
Explosiveness?
2nd Jump?


I can say he has special balance but he is using that right now to the max of his capabilities. It's not something he isn't fully taking full advantage of like a 18 year old Bron or even 20 yo Harden.

I am all ears...

Read on Twitter

Balance. We already know he has elite balance. You are going to need more than that to be an elite NBA player. Just about most NBA players got some special athletic qualities. He needs a package of it to be a superstar or he could have the elite positional height which he doesn't have.

Balance is not othe only factor involved in the change of pace (he has also elite decelerations abilities).
Doncic has already 2 elite skills that you are either ignoring or avoiding to mention. Now you're changing the goalpost. He needs "elite positional height" now?? wow
Add to that his unique IQ (which most stars don't have) and you have a special cocktail.

[Dundalis]

He gets along well with all of his teammates. He’s even really close to Dennis, and gets along extremely well with Deandre. Does he hate losing? Of course he does, remember he’s coming off of a league championship in the Euro League, and was League MVP and Final Four MVP. Luka is a winner so all the losing is hard on him. So I’d expect him to look bummed when they’re losing. Over the next couple of seasons though the Mavs will have to cap space to add 2-3 max players and fill out the rest of their roster. Luka should be able to attract other stars to Dallas. They will look much different in 3 years than they look right now.

These are excuses to me. Honestly, he sulks. He does child like stuff like this. The only reason why you guys are defending him is because you want him to succeed above all else even when he does things completely wrong like his behavior.

There is levels to getting along. They deal with him. That's how they get along. Boogie's teammates all said they get along with him. No one said he was Jimmy Butler in SAC.

Ya'll love this, he was a winner before the NBA excuse. It wouldn't be okay for other players honestly. Melo was a winner at Cuse and with the USA team. But we all seem to mention his behavior. I see a trend in his fans I do not like at all. I can see them blaming the players for all of his career for his shortcomings as well. This will be a tragic case. I see it coming.

I think it’s funny that you have accused other people of it trying to tear down other players in order to prop up Luka. It you’re doing the same thing. You’re trying to downplay the obviously with Luka in order to make Bagley a d Ayton look better. You don’t have to like Luka, and you can have your opinion but like I said, you’re in the extreme minority with that opinion.

I quoted one of his posts in my response at the bottom of page 101. Read it. It's literally something you'd expect to hear coming out of the mouth of some crazy conspiracy theorist. The guys obsession with Luka isn't even concealed, it's blatant to the point of literal crazy. When someone needs you to be convinced of their opinion so badly they start analysing and projecting how a players personality will derail their career based on a few clips from a players rookie season, there's something really desperate and wrong there.

[King Ken]

You think Luka is near his peak now? And I'm the stan?

Yes. He will be more consistent but he is not getting that much better from here. I watch every game. He is so far ahead of players on the developed element but not where close on the stuff that you are born with.

He is the anti Giannis. Giannis was the worst rookie I've seen his year outside of Dennis Schroder who barely played anyway. Now Giannis is a top 3-5 player.

Where is Luka going to get much better at? You guys love saying this but I don't see it. I always saw a great player in terms of his floor and when I compare him to Pistol who might have been the most polished Amercian to ever enter the NBA as an American, that's me seeing him in ELITE regard. But I don't see this great potential. I don't see a great fit and he has a **** personality as well like a white Boogie Cousins. You guys are making excuses up for him.

1. Training/Conditioning - should make him faster, even more explosive
2. Improved shot
3. Improved defense
4. Improved understanding of the game and techniques
...
5. Adding things, moves to his game

Luka has yet to learn correct way of breathing for once, he has problems with guarding screens and i something he can improve a lot.
He will and should improve his ball handling more.
He needs to improve his conditioning in general.
He will get a better and better understanding of the game itself and you can already see the kid is adapting more and more to the pace of the league.


You never stop learning things and basketball players usually peak at aroun 27-32 years old, because amount of experience and training leads to that...

So yeah this kid should and will improve a lot

1. He doesn't have the body type where more than marginal athletic growth is possible. He's physically peaked. He doesn't have the frame that AD, Steph, or Giannis has where they have broad wide shoulders. It might not be possible to improve that much athletically.

2. This is possible. This is actually the area I want to see the most growth. From all of the people I spoke to, he is not a natural shooter but more of a natural scorer shot maker even in practice. This is an area I am watching closely for him.

3. I don't see him getting much better. He is already pretty solid in most of the areas where players using grow the most at his age. The parts he needs is things he can't control. Like defensive lateral quickness, close out quickness and most importantly for his position, length. I wish he had a higher standing reach because he could defend 4's full time if he did.

4. He has tremendous understanding of the game of a vet. He will improve in this area and will need to because the NBA will adjust to him next season.

5. I would like to see him add more heady moves like the Smitty and I really want him to become more of a team player. Get gets tunnel vision at times, but maybe that's because he's just a rookie but mixing his bag up will do wonders for teams playing team defense on him.

[Dundalis]

I don't understand how some people still say Baigley & Ayton have the same or even higher ceiling than Doncic, until they prove that it won't be true... But so far Luka is far ahead of anyone in his draft class... I know this is only their first year & anything can happen in future.

It is true that Luka was playing Basketball from a young age at a top club and thus had to develop his skills at a rapid rate to get into that team. So I think the only valid point people can make is that other draft members started a) at a later age and/or b) on a team with lower expectations/professionalism. I absolutely think that at least b) is true for most of them.

What surprises me with Luka is the level of skill on most the moves he performs. He has shown the complete repertoire and he even has his go to moves well developed. I don't know where he goes from here. Is it studying the playbooks? Mastering more moves? Coming up with completely new moves? To me he is a genius to be so well rounded at this point. He is one of those guys that will add a dimension to basketball like all the greats did before.

It should go without saying, the only person we have record of who can learn a skill so quickly and use it effectively in a high intense environment is Pete Maravich. It's an ability you have to be born with. You can't just be taught that.

Can I see this record please? Since it goes without saying and all, and is clearly some observable science we can measure.

[Mr B]

You think Zion is that level even though he hasn’t played in the NBA yet?

As for Luka being a superstar, you can have your opinion. That doesn’t change the fact though that you are in the extreme minority with that opinion. 99% of the rest of basketball world believes that Luka will be a superstar and many of those believe he already is. You don’t have to like it or agree with it but it’s a fact.

I do. I think he is the best athlete I've ever seen in Basketball. Functional. No real flaws. Not just elite but generational explosiveness.

I have my questions, positional fit, shooting, conditioning but I do feel these will be a mark he can overcome with development. Plus, I think he can play anywhere and any system. You don't have to play Zion ball or change what you are doing for Zion. He just fits, at least offensively. Defensively, that's a different story but he will be effective.

I am fine being an minority. I've been in that minority in the past. We all see the game how we see the game. I feel as if I am right, you may and should feel the same. I will not disrespect you for your take or opinion and I have no interest in changing your opinion. This is a message board for conversations. As long as I respect you and you respect me, we are cool regardless if we agree to disagree.

I don't believe for one minute that 99% of the Basketball world thinks he is a superstar. We can ask every player and most will laugh their ass off or scoff at the question. They will say he is a great rookie but you are pushing it with the superstar talk. There is a massive difference between franchise player and superstar and it damn sure ain't no fact.

The team that drafts him and the coach he ends up with will also play a role in his success. Also being the best athlete doesn’t always transfer into success. Will he have the same drive one he gets paid and has some fame? If he ends up in NY, Chicago, or Atlanta is he mature enough to handle the city? These are things we do not know about Zion yet.

[King Ken]

Read on Twitter

Balance. We already know he has elite balance. You are going to need more than that to be an elite NBA player. Just about most NBA players got some special athletic qualities. He needs a package of it to be a superstar or he could have the elite positional height which he doesn't have.

Balance is not othe only factor involved in the change of pace (he has also elite decelerations abilities).
Doncic has already 2 elite skills that you are either ignoring or avoiding to mention. Now you're changing the goalpost. He needs "elite positional height" now?? wow
Add to that his unique IQ (which most stars don't have) and you have a special cocktail.

Balance is the largest that it impacts. Change of pace is good to have but without the athletic ability, he can be well defended. I've seen it time and time again watching the Mavs. Teams like putting PG's on him for that reason. They seen he is too shifty for a wing so they put PG's on him and they know he isn't athletic enough to get his shot consistently off on them. That's the adjustment I've seen teams make up for him. Especially those with bigger PG's like Lowry, Rose, etc.

I do feel this will be a problem for him because one thing I notice, as good as a passer Luka is, he doesn't pass as well from the post. This is the one area he will have to improve on moving forward. I think it will help. He has good post moves, with his football and size, it's hard not to.

Luka is adjusting and I like what I am seeing from him. He has exceeded my expectations which was sky high for his floor. He made a number of improvements since his time at Real Madrid.

I agree, he does have unique BBIQ. I've said that about him.

I am not moving the goalpost, Steph and Harden have a vast number of elite to very good pure athletic traits, I just mentioned two because I don't want to be posting all day. Luka has a few but most NBA players have a few. To be a superstar, he needs many unless he has an unicorn height and size which changes everything. If Luka was 6'11, he would be top 10 all time potential. But if A.I. was 6'4, he would be top 10 all time potential too. What if Ray Allen was 6'11? That's goes a lot of franchise players or potential franchise players.

[King Ken]

The team that drafts him and the coach he ends up with will also play a role in his success. Also being the best athlete doesn’t always transfer into success. Will he have the same drive one he gets paid and has some fame? If he ends up in NY, Chicago, or Atlanta is he mature enough to handle the city? These are things we do not know about Zion yet.

I am not NBA personnel, so that's not my call to make. I would see him having no issues in any city. He's a pretty well mannered and focused kid.

The best athlete with the best functional athletic ability usually equals All Timer.

MJ - All Timer
LeBron - All Timer
Wilt - All Timer
Giannis - On his way
Westbrook - All Timer and he was extremely raw out of college. Zion on the other hand has a high floor.

This is the NBA, it's not rocket science.

[King Ken]

The team that drafts him and the coach he ends up with will also play a role in his success. Also being the best athlete doesn’t always transfer into success. Will he have the same drive one he gets paid and has some fame? If he ends up in NY, Chicago, or Atlanta is he mature enough to handle the city? These are things we do not know about Zion yet.

I am not NBA personnel, so that's not my call to make. I would see him having no issues in any city. He's a pretty well mannered and focused kid.

The best athlete with the best functional athletic ability usually equals All Timer.

MJ - All Timer
LeBron - All Timer
Wilt - All Timer
Giannis - On his way
Westbrook - All Timer and he was extremely raw out of college. Zion on the other hand has a high floor.

This is the NBA, it's not rocket science.

[King Ken]

It is true that Luka was playing Basketball from a young age at a top club and thus had to develop his skills at a rapid rate to get into that team. So I think the only valid point people can make is that other draft members started a) at a later age and/or b) on a team with lower expectations/professionalism. I absolutely think that at least b) is true for most of them.

What surprises me with Luka is the level of skill on most the moves he performs. He has shown the complete repertoire and he even has his go to moves well developed. I don't know where he goes from here. Is it studying the playbooks? Mastering more moves? Coming up with completely new moves? To me he is a genius to be so well rounded at this point. He is one of those guys that will add a dimension to basketball like all the greats did before.

It should go without saying, the only person we have record of who can learn a skill so quickly and use it effectively in a high intense environment is Pete Maravich. It's an ability you have to be born with. You can't just be taught that.

Can I see this record please? Since it goes without saying and all, and is clearly some observable science we can measure.

We have never seen a player take on elite skills as quickly as him since Pistol Pete. We have been waiting on this player since but he hasn't come till now.

As someone who studied Pistol Pete and built my game around him, it was like deja vu to watch Luka play in Spain. It's not a shock he learned the Harden stepback in a summer and mastered it or the Dirk stepback. Him and Pete can learn anything skill wise and master it in record time. I bet he is also a tremendous teacher of skill as well. Usually these types are in any profession.

[Mr B]

The team that drafts him and the coach he ends up with will also play a role in his success. Also being the best athlete doesn’t always transfer into success. Will he have the same drive one he gets paid and has some fame? If he ends up in NY, Chicago, or Atlanta is he mature enough to handle the city? These are things we do not know about Zion yet.

I am not NBA personnel, so that's not my call to make. I would see him having no issues in any city. He's a pretty well mannered and focused kid.

The best athlete with the best functional athletic ability usually equals All Timer.

MJ - All Timer
LeBron - All Timer
Wilt - All Timer
Giannis - On his way
Westbrook - All Timer and he was extremely raw out of college. Zion on the other hand has a high floor.

This is the NBA, it's not rocket science.

The same things you say about Zion were said about Grant Hill and Len Bias too. You could actually even throw in Joe Smith and Lamar Odom to an extent. All had great athleticism and little to no flaws. Zion still has to prove it before automatically putting him in that class you mentioned. You never know how a player is going to handle being an NBA player. With Luka though we know for a fact that he’s a superstar caliber player in the NBA.

[Riko]

Someone is making a fool of himself...

[Nuntius]

You really think his body can improve like that? Other Eastern Europeans NBA players got this body type and played their whole careers with it. Just like I say for Harden, what if this is who he is? Harden will never be built like Bron

Harden doesn't need to be like Bron to be great, though. No player needs to be just like Bron to be great. There are different ways to greatness.

You mentioned in a previous post that he has different athletic feats that are special. Like what? What is it that Luka does athletically that's great or even very good for his position?
First step?
Speed?
Quickness?
Agility?
Acceleration?
Vertical?
Explosiveness?
2nd Jump?


I can say he has special balance but he is using that right now to the max of his capabilities. It's not something he isn't fully taking full advantage of like a 18 year old Bron or even 20 yo Harden.

I am all ears...

I mentioned them already but allow me to mention them again. Deceleration, strength and footwork. Luka can change speeds well already and that aspect of his game will only improve.

And even in the areas you mentioned, Luka isn't bad. He is at worst average and in some of this areas he is pretty decent. Luka just isn't the bad athlete that you're making him out to be. He is average across the cross with some pretty important strengths.

[Nuntius]

Plumlee is athletic but his lack of Basketball skill to an extreme degree makes him useless on the court as an athlete. His value is mainly screen setting, boxing out, and knowing where to be on defense which isn't as important anymore with the modern NBA as it was 5 years ago.

Yes, I know. Again, the team I support drafted him.

Plumlee is clearly a better athlete, he just isn't a functional athlete which matters most in the NBA.

Noah in his prime was more athletic as well. Functionally as well.

The point you were making wasn't that they weren't more athletic overall. The point you were making was that they were faster. My counterpoint was that they weren't faster. More athletic, sure. Faster? No.

Noah is skilled for a center, Luka is skilled for anyone who ever played this game. Of course Luka will be generally faster with the ball. He has perimeter skills. Noah doesn't. That's more about skill and less about athletic ability though.

I agree with that part.

Doncic barely finished faster and had 10 ft start on him. 7:19 Noah- finished at 7:15. Doncic- 7:37 and finished at 7:33. 4 seconds for each and Noah had more ground to cover. What are you watching?

Focus on the game clocks.

Luka: Gets the ball at 9:37. Ball goes through the hoop at 9:33.

Noah: Gets the ball at 7:19. Ball goes through the hoop at 7:13.

4 seconds for Luka, 6 seconds for Noah.

Noah is a long strider. Of course he will look slower but cover more ground while Luka is more evenly built. He doesn't cover has much ground on his strides. Both looked slow. They had that in common and this was one of Luka's better fast breaks speed wise mainly because no one really had an angle on him.

Lowry actually had a good angle on him and he is very good at drawing charges. Luka wasn't going full speed on that break. He was trying to see whether Lowry would jump up on him for the charge and whether he should pass it or on. You can see how he's surveying the floor when he goes past center court and how he accelerates when he realizes that Lowry cannot cover enough ground to take the charge.

[Nuntius]

You mentioned in a previous post that he has different athletic feats that are special. Like what? What is it that Luka does athletically that's great or even very good for his position?
First step?
Speed?
Quickness?
Agility?
Acceleration?
Vertical?
Explosiveness?
2nd Jump?


I can say he has special balance but he is using that right now to the max of his capabilities. It's not something he isn't fully taking full advantage of like a 18 year old Bron or even 20 yo Harden.

I am all ears...

Read on Twitter

Balance. We already know he has elite balance. You are going to need more than that to be an elite NBA player. Just about most NBA players got some special athletic qualities. He needs a package of it to be a superstar or he could have the elite positional height which he doesn't have.

He definitely has the elite positional height. He is a 6'8 combo guard.

[Oscar9992]

Athletic or not Doncic is almost unguardable & he is only 19 years old rookie with Elite IQ.

He will be perennial All-Star for long time if he somehow avoids injuries...

[Oscar9992]

Luka gets Triple Double with 35 Pts... Suns, Kings & Hawks fans be like: "OMG he is peaking already!!!' LMAO!

[Nuntius]

You think Zion is that level even though he hasn’t played in the NBA yet?

As for Luka being a superstar, you can have your opinion. That doesn’t change the fact though that you are in the extreme minority with that opinion. 99% of the rest of basketball world believes that Luka will be a superstar and many of those believe he already is. You don’t have to like it or agree with it but it’s a fact.

I don't believe for one minute that 99% of the Basketball world thinks he is a superstar. We can ask every player and most will laugh their ass off or scoff at the question. They will say he is a great rookie but you are pushing it with the superstar talk. There is a massive difference between franchise player and superstar and it damn sure ain't no fact.

To be fair to Mr B, his claim wasn't that 99% of the basketball world thinks that Luka is a superstar right now. His claim was that they believe that he will be a superstar. He did say that many of them believe that he is already is a superstar but that claim wasn't about the 99%.