The LeBron Thread (merged)

[zimpy27]

Plenty of problems with that ingratiating take.

The injury was indeed reported minor after the MRI. However, a few days ago Rich Paul described it as a grade 2 (moderate tear) sprain. I don't know what the truth is but somebody is lying. Very concerning.

Secondly, since his injury, the Lakers went from 4th in the west to out of the playoffs. Considering Magic's impatience and pressures on Luke Walton's job, if Lebron is fine and is just chilling, he needs to be out of this team. It's either his body is breaking down (not good) or he's a prima donna who puts himself above the team (not good either). Which is it?

Third, we need to evaluate these young players, but Lebron's arrival has thrown a wrench in Lonzo and Ingram's games. They won't be Lebron's 3-and-D backcourt this season - or ever. And why should they be? They don't need to live up to Lebron's standards while the old fart is skipping games and sipping wine. Tell him to play defense and gut through games like everybody else and set an example as a true leader. If he's too good to fight in the trenches, then he doesn't deserve whatever success we have. He would not have earned it. We need to play better with him, not without him. We already know Lonzo and Ingram players play better without him. That's not helpful.

But if Lebron can do whatever he wants to and not be accountable to anybody, then indeed, it's over. Look, if his body is fragile and we need to give him allowances for not playing defense or allowing to skip practice or to skip games, sorry, that means he's too old. King James had a great run, but kings get old and tyrannical and corrupt. You kowtow to him, you lose the entire kingdom.

But we don't need him. We have the best brand in the world. We'll survive him. And we'll get to the top again - with true Lakers. And I love these young men who are growing into their own. They are our own. They have so much pride in the purple and gold. If we win a ring, I'd want to win rings with players who've done it for the Lakers and for the fans, not for himself and his brand.

Indeed, Lebron is like a vampire sucking the blood from the youth to keep himself going.

It's been known form the start that this season had two goals:

Keep LeBron healthy
Develop and present the value of the young players

The team build was a two offseason project. Next season is when it matters. So let's see how they go in the offseason and next season before deteinijg if keeping LeBron is wise.

[milesfides]

What makes you think Lebron is going to be healthier and better at age 35? Is that a reasonable assumption?

And I disagree with you about the Lakers' goals this season. Magic and Lebron's actions belie their lip service to patience. They're looking to win even now.

JaVale (Shaqtin a Fool), Rondo (coach killer), Lance and Beasley (LOL) weren't brought in to mentor the youth. They were the best veterans the Lakers could get to appease Lebron. The trade for Tyson Chandler as well. As Luke Walton if the Lakers main goals are to keep Lebron healthy and develop the young talent.

[Landsberger]

What makes you think Lebron is going to be healthier and better at age 35? Is that a reasonable assumption?

And I disagree with you about the Lakers' goals this season. Magic and Lebron's actions belie their lip service to patience. They're looking to win even now.

JaVale (Shaqtin a Fool), Rondo (coach killer), Lance and Beasley (LOL) weren't brought in to mentor the youth. They were the best veterans the Lakers could get to appease Lebron. The trade for Tyson Chandler as well. As Luke Walton if the Lakers main goals are to keep Lebron healthy and develop the young talent.

So... if we look at the inverse of this you'd advocate letting this core grow into GS 2.0 or something along those lines huh.... None of these veterans gives a crap about the young guys and LeBron is a past his prime jerk/idiot/leach who's in significant decline.

OKC drafted 3 MVP's in 5 years along with Ibaka who doesn't stink and still couldn't find balance enough to win a chip with the falling of the ping pong balls. Drafting alone doesn't build anything. The reasons we're all Laker fans belie the idea that we draft and wait.

I'd agree that the FO wants to win now.... this comes from Jeannie first and foremost.... remember she's the one who brought Magic back.... This is what the Lakers organization wants. We haven't "grown" a championship team in the entire Buss Era. Each time we've traded for picks or players and added FA's who made the difference.

[milesfides]

You're making it too complicated.

The formula is simple. You need the best players to win championships. At least two with a stacked supporting cast (Kobe-Shaq), or three studs (classic Big 3 formula). Golden State is a ridiculous example because it has a big four with a stacked supporting cast.

So there's no point trying to win the game if you don't have the right moves to make. You need to amass enough assets and cash out at the right time.

The Rockets are a good example of bad timing. Morey was never able to get that third prime star. Or even second - he got Chris Paul too late in his career. Now they're desperately trying to work with a thinned-out roster with bad contracts. They're handcuffed for the next three years. They'll do just enough to ruin both Paul and Harden's careers.

Speaking of Chris Paul, this is why this thread exists. CP is a top 5 point guard of all time, but he hit the decline at age 33. Right on track. That's a problem when he's getting paid $40m for the next four seasons, like Lebron. He's untradeable, and he will absolutely destroy the franchise's chances for the life of the contract (see: Kobe Bryant). And if one star slips, goodbye championship.

Give me Lonzo, Ingram, Kuzma, Hart, Zubac, Mo, Svi and ALL THAT CAPSPACE. I'd hold out until I get superstars IN THEIR PRIME. I don't care if it's Jordan or Kobe or Lebron. If you're older than 34, the movie doesn't end well. Give me Kawhi. Give me Anthony Davis. Give me MVP's and DPOY's in their prime.

You know who would be surprised if Lebron declines or suffers a catastrophic injury within the next three seasons? Nobody.

[Landsberger]

Your plan doesn't reflect the reality of having to sign these guys starting year after next. First Ingram and Zubac then Kuzma, Ball and Hart. Poof! There goes your cap space and poof there goes those 2 superstars.

The "new" superstar is not coming here unless we are on the brink and as much as I like a few of that young core they are not putting us on the brink alone. No one wants to "build" anything anymore.... they want it ready-made.

We have the superstar of superstars right now and we couldn't get the second one. I count ourselves lucky in that we have what we have actually. In looking at drafting 2-7 over the last 20 drafts we've done well in getting good players. Only 4 All Stars picked at number 2 over that time and of those only 2 more than once. In our situation.... not some fantasy one that has us not having LeBron.... we will have to trade for that second true star player. I just hope we can keep one of the top 3 in the process.

[milesfides]

It’s true what they say. You get old enough, you become a cancer.

[kblo247]

You're making it too complicated.

The formula is simple. You need the best players to win championships. At least two with a stacked supporting cast (Kobe-Shaq), or three studs (classic Big 3 formula). Golden State is a ridiculous example because it has a big four with a stacked supporting cast.

So there's no point trying to win the game if you don't have the right moves to make. You need to amass enough assets and cash out at the right time.

The Rockets are a good example of bad timing. Morey was never able to get that third prime star. Or even second - he got Chris Paul too late in his career. Now they're desperately trying to work with a thinned-out roster with bad contracts. They're handcuffed for the next three years. They'll do just enough to ruin both Paul and Harden's careers.

Speaking of Chris Paul, this is why this thread exists. CP is a top 5 point guard of all time, but he hit the decline at age 33. Right on track. That's a problem when he's getting paid $40m for the next four seasons, like Lebron. He's untradeable, and he will absolutely destroy the franchise's chances for the life of the contract (see: Kobe Bryant). And if one star slips, goodbye championship.

Give me Lonzo, Ingram, Kuzma, Hart, Zubac, Mo, Svi and ALL THAT CAPSPACE. I'd hold out until I get superstars IN THEIR PRIME. I don't care if it's Jordan or Kobe or Lebron. If you're older than 34, the movie doesn't end well. Give me Kawhi. Give me Anthony Davis. Give me MVP's and DPOY's in their prime.

You know who would be surprised if Lebron declines or suffers a catastrophic injury within the next three seasons? Nobody.

I thought you were on something before but lol **** me I know you are now.

- Magic is better than CP3.
- Stockton had a better career
- NAsh had a better career
- Kidd was better
- Payton was better
- Oscar was better
- Billups had more success
- Oscar is Oscar
- Curry is better
- Tony Parker beat his ass off multiple times
- Mike Conley even played his ass to a stalemate in the playoffs lol when lob city failed

He is not even top 10 let alone a top 5 all time point guard when he only made the conference finals once in a career

Hell Penny had a higher **** peak than CP3 and we know before Deron got fat he made him his bitch whenever he saw him in Utah

[Landsberger]

The love for CP3 is irrational. You can go back and find many better PG's than him. His advocates will always point to his teammates as the issue with his lack of success yet there is one constant from NO/OKC to LA to Houston and it's him. Stats are always there but his style of play is the issue. Pop made a career of taking his teams out of the playoffs.

If "great" is ranking on stats then he'll be highly regarded.... if "great" is being the QB on a great team that he's the leader of then.... no...

Not on the list above of guys he's not better than:
Tiny Archibald
Bob Cousy
Clyde Frazier
Isiah Thomas
Kevin Johnson
Allen Iverson
Tim Hardaway
Gail Goodrich
Lenny Wilkens
We can put Jerry West in here as well as he played PG for about 1/2 of his career.

[milesfides]

I hate Chris Paul. Right now. However, he single-handedly almost knocked us out when he was with New Orleans. Had he been traded to the Lakers, he would have likely have a championship(s) on his resume and he'd be one of the greatest Lakers ever. In his prime years, he was a perennial MVP candidate and a card-carrying member of both all NBA and ALL defense teams. He ranks in the top 5 of all players ever or close to it in every composite metric, whether that's plus minus, PER, win shares, value over replacement, etc. That type of consistency, production, and efficiency is unmatched except for Mt. Rushmore players.

The only point guards who come out ahead are Magic and Jason Kidd (including a good argument for Steph Curry). There's no evidence at all that Payton, Stockton, etc. are better than Chris Paul - he crushes them in everything.

But everybody is entitled to an opinion. I don't like him but that's just my opinion. I also know that regardless of my opinion, the facts show he's one of the best to ever do it.

[milesfides]

More relevantly, the point is that despite Chris Paul's indisputable greatness in his prime, he's fallen off at 33. His unfortunate circumstance was that he never was able to play with at least one great player in his prime. Now that he's with Harden, it's too late. For him, and for Harden. You can't win with old players.

And I guarantee Daryl Morey will be looking to trade Chris Paul this summer. If he can find a buyer. He may not.

The Boston Celtics were a great example of how quickly things can change. They looked like one of the greatest dynasties of all time. They were absolutely dominant for a couple of seasons. And then they got old, and then these Hall of Famers were worthless as franchise-killing bad contracts. From heroes to trash. Do you want Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce when they won the championship in Boston or when they were trash with the Nets?

Credit Danny Ainge for having the guts to trade these Boston heroes. Lebron isn't even a Laker hero. What's the hold up? Ship his ass out.

[Landsberger]

More relevantly, the point is that despite Chris Paul's indisputable greatness in his prime, he's fallen off at 33. His unfortunate circumstance was that he never was able to play with at least one great player in his prime.

There it is.... Advanced metrics do not predict or record greatness in terms of pushing a team to greatness. They are not "facts" in that regard in anyway. His advanced stats were at his "prime" last year and he played with a sucky guy like Harden too....

As for "another great player".... Mr. Big shot, who is waaaaay below your beloved prime CP3 played with who again in 2004? Name that starting 5 off the top of your head. Who'd they beat? Blake Griffen is not a "great player"? His trajectory is that of a HOF PF. Name the starting 5 for Iverson's championship trip.... or Kidds in NJ. This narrative is so overplayed with him it's crazy.

CP3 has played with very good supporting casts and on some of the deeper teams in recent years. He's sooooo overrated by so many it's not funny in terms of actual accomplishments it's not funny. The league anointed him with gift endorsements when he came to LA to try and offset the fact that the Lakers were the most popular team in town and in the league.... then promoted the crap out of him every chance they got thereafter in hopes that he'd be the new face fo the league. I couldn't be happier that it didn't happen that way. Well... that's not true... I am happier that he didn't become a Laker.

As someone who coached younger kids learning the game for over 20 years CP3 is the absolute worst example of professionalism I've every seen. Guys like Rodman and Rider were obvious in their character issues but CP3's flopping and constant leveraging of the officials is beyond the pale for me. There are 10 minute long YouTube videos of him going under guys in the air and jumping in front of guys in transition to flop for foul calls. It's a wonder he hasn't seriously hurt someone doing this crap. There is some justice in the world when he hurt himself a few years back flopping in the season push to the end in his best shot to get deep in the playoffs.

[tourdelance]

Jordan retired at 35, not 34. Also, he played all 82 games at 33/34/35.

[milesfides]

Lebron has already played far more minutes than Michael Jordan when he retired. Imagine if Jordan didn't retire and played straight until he was 39 (his knee fell apart when he came back at 38) and that's how much mileage Lebron has right now at 34.

Lebron (34)
16 seasons: 45,476
13 playoff years: 10,049
Total minutes played: 55,525

Jordan (35)
13 seasons: 35,887
13 playoff years: 7,474
Total minutes played: 43,361

Difference: 12,164 minutes (4.4 seasons, 3.6 seasons w/ playoffs)

Again, Jordan would had to have played for four more years past his first retirement to play as many minutes as Lebron has right now.

[kblo247]

More relevantly, the point is that despite Chris Paul's indisputable greatness in his prime, he's fallen off at 33. His unfortunate circumstance was that he never was able to play with at least one great player in his prime. Now that he's with Harden, it's too late. For him, and for Harden. You can't win with old players.

And I guarantee Daryl Morey will be looking to trade Chris Paul this summer. If he can find a buyer. He may not.

The Boston Celtics were a great example of how quickly things can change. They looked like one of the greatest dynasties of all time. They were absolutely dominant for a couple of seasons. And then they got old, and then these Hall of Famers were worthless as franchise-killing bad contracts. From heroes to trash. Do you want Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce when they won the championship in Boston or when they were trash with the Nets?

Credit Danny Ainge for having the guts to trade these Boston heroes. Lebron isn't even a Laker hero. What's the hold up? Ship his ass out.

You know how silly it sounds to say he was too unfortunate to play with a great player in his prime. Why are you butchering and rewriting a false narrative?

He literally played with Peja, Tyson, West, and Bobby Jackson in Nola. Peja was a sniper and still in his prime, cp asked for him in the media and they overpaid for him. Tyson was at his athletic peak with Paul and he asked for him and they overpaid. West was an all star even after leaving Paul and got further than Paul ever got without him as a featured player. Then we have the other notables like Bonzi, Mo Pete, Bobby Jackson all guys Nola paid the mid level money to and he pushed for in the press at the time.

Paul didn’t win with them. It’s not unfortunate, his ass didn’t get it done and handle his business. He had home court versus the spurs Kobe mimed in 5 in 08 with a hobbled Manu and didn’t step up. He got beat off the floor in one of the largest losses j. Close out history by Billups in Denver who controlled the tempo. Parker took his ass out multiple times. And even in that series you remember where Kobe was hurt and hobbled himself he wasn’t the best player on the court, Kobe still was when it mattered.

He went to Blake and the clippers and Blake had a historical start to his career. Blake was a top player in the league. Blake played more games than paul did actually. Blake was a perennial all star. Paul didn’t get it done versus Memphis when Conley matched him and washed him in the playoffs. Parker beat his ass again. And when they had a chance to make real noise he was on the floor when Kevin Mchale benched James Harden and went with Josh Smith and Dwight Howard to lead Houston in a comeback to put the Clippers our the second round.

Kidd took a team from the lotto to back to back finals. He had the pistons actually dead in the water in 04 to he blew his knee out in game 7 in his last year with K-Mart at a net. They aren’t close in terms of impact or winning.

Billups is a finals mvp, made multiple nba and conference finals. It’s not close what their legacies are as players, leaders. One guy one and can command a locker room and get guys like Melo, JR, and Kenyon to listen. The other has guys like Big Baby, Blake, Marcus Thornton, Kenyon, and others outright say he’s a bad teammate and he barks about this is what you do to win without having won **** in a locker room.

Payton was the best defensive pg in history. He led his team to a nba finals. Hell he was lob city before lob city with kemp and they actually got out the west. He held Jordan to low 40% ... they aren’t close in terms of impact

Paul has never dominated a playoff series like Penny did in Orlando in his life, so let’s not even think to bring that up

West was a point guard, unless if you call Goodrich the point guard. He’s never been more impactful than west. Hell hes never been called best player on the floor in a L like west.

Tony Parker owns him for his career.

Stockton was a perennial leader, barely missed games, and stayed in the playoffs. Paul can’t say any of that. He can’t touch his longevity, his games played, his playoff success, or the fact Stockton was known as being actually tough around the league.

And did you say Curry might have an argument? A mvp, 3 titles, higher averages, more playoff success, and the fact a star took less to play with him and they all compliment him whereas people need to be overpaid and still bitch about having to deal with Paul.

Let’s dace real facts here. If you gave Kobe in those years Peja, Tyson, and West he’s getting to the finals ... you give him Blake and Deandre with Redick in 11-13 he’s getting to the finals. Paul couldn’t even sniff a third round without harden

[zimpy27]

Is this thread going to continue for 4 years?

[digcom99]

Is this thread going to continue for 4 years?

What he said. LeBron isn't going anywhere...so why is this still open.

[milesfides]

No, this is exactly the right time to trade him. Danny Ainge traded superstars and champions Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett before they set the Celtics back a decade. Everybody gets old and becomes trash, even the greatest.

This is exactly the time to have this thread open. Or shall we open it when it's too late and cry about it?

Ship his ass out. He's old and he's a cancer.

Let him be a problem on somebody else's team. Thank God Dwight Howard didn't sign with us. Anybody regret dodging that bullet?

[TyCobb]

Gotta say... I'm with it. Send LeBron to the Knicks.

[Vae Victus]

Objectively speaking, trading Lebron for AD makes a helluva lot of sense.

Between Lebron's age and AD making about 8 mil less than Lebron and essentially allows the team to sign a 2nd superstar FA. Since AD is a big (cant dominate the ball) and has like no media baggage, any superstar wing out there (KD, Kawhi) would love to pair up with him and get the lion's share of the glory (due to being the primary ball handler). Then the team is free to trade the youth for a 3rd star, or see if they can fit around the 2 superstars.

If Lebron is gonna play these types of shenanigans, sitting out games to power play the team, and trying to publically muscle out Luke (not that i think Luke is a good coach, just the way its happening is not needed), then ship his ass out.

I honestly wouldnt worry too much about AD being unhappy with Rich Paul chirping in his ear. As long as KD or Kawhi joins the team, everything will be forgiven.

C - AD, Zubac
PF- Kuz
SF- KD or Kawhi
SG- Ingram, Hart
PG- Lonzo

Yea you know what, i'm waaaay more down with this team than LBJ + AD with **** surrounding them.

[Landsberger]

Lot's of instant hate for Bron. The guy is playing his hand like most superstars do. Back in the day Kareem wanted NY or LA.... Magic wanted Kareem gone and then the coach gone... he got 50% of that.... Kobe wanted Shaq gone or he wanted to go.... This IS Laker history.

When Bron was playing with this group we were 1 game out..... This is where I'll start my evaluation of LeBron here in LA. I've never been a huge fan of his game but he's unlike any player that I've ever seen. Trading him isn't happening..... trading everyone else may. We will have to fall really hard before we see Jeannie blowing this up.