Taurean Prince

[EazyRoc]

Prince isn’t the finisher and passer PG is. Nor has he been as consistently good defensively. I think Prince can develop a good perimeter oriented game 10 ft and out. PG is playing like an MVP candidate right now. That’s not the kind of player Prince will ever be.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

Is it your understanding that win shares, VORP and BPM are statistics that are affected by team wins/losses?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

PER is a stat that attempts to conglomerate all box score stats into one.

Analyzing the parts that make up PER, there is one area where George in his first 3 years was clearly superior to Prince, which is rebounding. There is one other area where he has an edge, but not like in rebounding, and that is assists.

Stating hopefully the obvious, Prince's third year is confounded for now... new coach, unfamiliar court mates, and having missed a significant number of games after the first 24.

Reviewing it all year-to-year, Prince's shooting is competitive with and in some areas better than George's.

To be fair.

Losing teams can still have players that rank very high in these stats because many of them don't key off winning at all but instead reflect performance by the individual. Let's use an example.

The Phoenix Suns this season have won only 11 games and have a much lower winning % than the Hawks. Nevertheless, DeAndre Ayton is putting up a 21.5 PER, .144 WS/48, 1.2 VORP and 1.2 BPM. He has done this despite playing the most minutes of anyone on the Suns and despite the Suns putting up fewer wins than any Hawks team that Prince has played on. (Phoenix's rookie swingman Mikal Bridges is also putting up numbers that are significantly better than Prince while playing in this same low in environment).

Um. Playing more minutes just makes it more likely that a player is going to be contributing to WHATEVER NUMBER OF WINS a team has been able to enjoy, no? So there's that.

And because the Hawks' record in games that Prince HAS ACTUALLY PLAYED IN is what is applicable, and that record is 8-20 and largely affected by the lack of wins over the course of the first quarter of the season before his injury happened... that FURTHER affects any BPM related stats one wants to consider. So there's that, too.

I don't want to overstate it, and I don't want to understate it... George is the better player, but the trend line of his first three years and the trend line of Prince's first three years is comparable offensively with the exception of rebounding.

It should also be noted, and I failed to note it until now, that George played SG his first two years. As a 6-9 guy. Again, that's an advantage that he had Danny Granger beside him playing the 3, because of the match-up problems the two of them together were able to present night after night.

[jayu70]

From Peachtree Hoops post today following the road win in LA, and pertinent to this player whose contributions on this night didn't show up in the box score...

===================

....However, it was Taurean Prince who stepped into the spotlight in the fourth quarter in a resilient attempt to make false prophets of his critics (myself included). Up 10 with about eight minutes to play, Prince entered the game with a single assignment – shut down the league’s second-best fourth-quarter flamethrower. Lou Williams, who had been mostly dormant through three quarters, is liable to erupt at any time, and it was Prince who got the call from his head coach to ensure that Williams was not the one to beat his hometown Hawks on this night. Nothing on the defensive end is ever a one-man operation, but Prince acquitted himself about as well as one could reasonably hope, flashing the tantalizing 3-and-D upside that has waxed and waned over his three years in the NBA.

For one night, the defensive upside of Prince — and, by proxy, the upside of the team itself — was fully evident. Whether the third-year forward can turn out those performances on a consistent basis remains a key fulcrum of his value at the NBA level, but make no mistake, the talent is there and it will be up to both player and coaching staff to work together to find the role, and the motivation, that brings out the best nightly.

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2019/1/29/18201745/atlanta-hawks-los-angeles-clippers-trae-young-john-collins-alex-len-taurean-prince-video-analysis

I hope that Prince can put more of his focus on defense like he did last night on a consistence basis.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

Prince isn’t the finisher and passer PG is. Nor has he been as consistently good defensively. I think Prince can develop a good perimeter oriented game 10 ft and out. PG is playing like an MVP candidate right now. That’s not the kind of player Prince will ever be.

Paul George is excellent.

Prince is a good passer, not a great one, and more to the point, he is too prone to turnovers. That will need to change, but it's also a stat where many NBA players do, in fact, grow and get better.

Prince is inconsistent defensively. I don't think he will ever be as consistent as George. I do think he will be more consistent than he is now, though. And he has shown himself capable of shutting down his opponents... just last night for example.

And, Prince isn't the rebounder that George is... if there's one area where I, too, doubt Prince will equal George that is it... because the stats support that, and because rebounding is not often an area where players become that much better over the years.

MVP candidate? I'll agree, I don't think that's where this is headed.

But. I'm saying if we evaluated George after 2 seasons and 28 games, that's not where we would think he would be now, either. Good, not great, would have been the assessment back then.

I believe we MUST give this the balance of this season to give Prince any level-headed serious assessment. Too many are being premature in their judgments, largely based on a single mention in a single tweet that his name was brought up in at least one trade discussion.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

From Peachtree Hoops post today following the road win in LA, and pertinent to this player whose contributions on this night didn't show up in the box score...

===================

....However, it was Taurean Prince who stepped into the spotlight in the fourth quarter in a resilient attempt to make false prophets of his critics (myself included). Up 10 with about eight minutes to play, Prince entered the game with a single assignment – shut down the league’s second-best fourth-quarter flamethrower. Lou Williams, who had been mostly dormant through three quarters, is liable to erupt at any time, and it was Prince who got the call from his head coach to ensure that Williams was not the one to beat his hometown Hawks on this night. Nothing on the defensive end is ever a one-man operation, but Prince acquitted himself about as well as one could reasonably hope, flashing the tantalizing 3-and-D upside that has waxed and waned over his three years in the NBA.

For one night, the defensive upside of Prince — and, by proxy, the upside of the team itself — was fully evident. Whether the third-year forward can turn out those performances on a consistent basis remains a key fulcrum of his value at the NBA level, but make no mistake, the talent is there and it will be up to both player and coaching staff to work together to find the role, and the motivation, that brings out the best nightly.

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2019/1/29/18201745/atlanta-hawks-los-angeles-clippers-trae-young-john-collins-alex-len-taurean-prince-video-analysis

I hope that Prince can put more of his focus on defense like he did last night on a consistence basis.

Impresses me that this wasn't a guy his own size, or even slightly larger or slightly smaller.

This was one of the quicker, wily veteran PG-sized scorers in the league.

Dare I say it... that is Paul George like.

[Jamaaliver]

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

hehe... I know... but it's a discussion board... so, we discuss things... that's the whole idea as far as I'm aware.

[The Force.]

Bulls fan here. Can someone provide a brief synopsis of why ATL would even consider trading Prince right now? Granted, I know very little about the guy but young 6-8 SFs with +.35 3pt% don't exactly grow on trees. Especially those on rookie contracts.

Also, it seems as though he slots in nicely alongside Huerter and Young. Hawks can still go after a wing in the draft and play Prince off the bench or in small lineups if need be.

What am I missing here exactly? The Dunk'd On podcast did their mock trade deadline and talked about moving Prince for a top 20 protected 1st rounder. Is that realistic value for him at this point?

[CP War Hawks]

Bulls fan here. Can someone provide a brief synopsis of why ATL would even consider trading Prince right now? Granted, I know very little about the guy but young 6-8 SFs with +.35 3pt% don't exactly grow on trees. Especially those on rookie contracts.

Also, it seems as though he slots in nicely alongside Huerter and Young. Hawks can still go after a wing in the draft and play Prince off the bench or in small lineups if need be.

What am I missing here exactly? The Dunk'd On podcast did their mock trade deadline and talked about moving Prince for a top 20 protected 1st rounder. Is that realistic value for him at this point?

There is a growing belief among the fanbase that this draft has a good 5-10 players that have similar to far exceeding potential than Prince with either Hawks or Mavs pick. He's currently coming off the bench, and could demand around 15 per once his extenstion comes up.

When you consider paying that much for a backup, and the needed pt to develop the future franchise sf, it's probably best to sell high within the next 6 months.

We'd want something along the lines a top 2020/2021 top 10 protected 1st with declining protection, or a similarly impactful young player of need.

[jayu70]

Bulls fan here. Can someone provide a brief synopsis of why ATL would even consider trading Prince right now? Granted, I know very little about the guy but young 6-8 SFs with +.35 3pt% don't exactly grow on trees. Especially those on rookie contracts.

Also, it seems as though he slots in nicely alongside Huerter and Young. Hawks can still go after a wing in the draft and play Prince off the bench or in small lineups if need be.

What am I missing here exactly? The Dunk'd On podcast did their mock trade deadline and talked about moving Prince for a top 20 protected 1st rounder. Is that realistic value for him at this point?

With the plethora of wings in the upcoming draft, his approaching RFAcy, his age, his too offense happy and trying to do too much at the expense of his defense early in the season,some fans have scapegoated him as the reason for the teams early struggles when in fact the entire team was crappy.
I would not make that deal.
I'd rather trade him at draft time if we are moving him.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

Answering the question, Schlenk might consider trading Prince or anyone else for the right price, like any GM would.

As for some fans' enthusiasm to trade him, I would assign some of that to stirring the pot by blogger site writers and writers who are predisposed to blowing up the smallest tidbit of info conveyed by a national writer like Shams Charania into something more than it is.

After all, that is, in fact, ALL that has been reported (as far as I'm aware)--his name has been floated.

I mean, really, some of this is just over-the-top hysterics... the team is in the process of gelling together, and it is to be expected that the first part of the season is going to be more ragged than as you begin to move through the season. Prince's injury timing is key here, because he bowed out at just about the time that the team was getting it together, and now that he's been back for just a handful of games and getting back into the flow, he's being assessed by some fans on the basis of (a) the worst part of the season for not just him but the rest of the team and (b) these games as he gets worked back in... and with Pierce experimenting with different 5-mans.

So, who's the back-up? The guy who's getting 30 minutes and is in the game at the end, or the guy who merely starts but isn't?

And, there are 2s a-plenty at the top of this draft and a smattering of small SFs. Plus-size SFs now and in general are hard to come by.

[The Force.]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Buzzard]

With AD's announcement, the trade rumors are just crickets for now. I think the Raptors really need to make the NBA Finals, if they want to keep Leonard. Houston is so deep in win now with a aging CP3, they need to get it done soon also.

I still expect something small, comparatively speaking to AD, will be done by OKC, Portland, Raptors, or Houston.

[Jamaaliver]

I think the Raptors really need to make the NBA Finals, if they want to keep Leonard.

I thought TOR had a decent shot to keep Kawhi if they could make a surprise run to the Finals. But seeing that Kawhi just bought a house in SoCal and this ridiculously cold weather in the North...I, sadly, think it's a long shot he re-ups in TOR on a long-term deal.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

[Atlanta Hawk Fan]

Is it your understanding that win shares, VORP and BPM are statistics that are affected by team wins/losses?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

PER is a stat that attempts to conglomerate all box score stats into one.

Analyzing the parts that make up PER, there is one area where George in his first 3 years was clearly superior to Prince, which is rebounding. There is one other area where he has an edge, but not like in rebounding, and that is assists.

Stating hopefully the obvious, Prince's third year is confounded for now... new coach, unfamiliar court mates, and having missed a significant number of games after the first 24.

Reviewing it all year-to-year, Prince's shooting is competitive with and in some areas better than George's.

To be fair.

Losing teams can still have players that rank very high in these stats because many of them don't key off winning at all but instead reflect performance by the individual. Let's use an example.

The Phoenix Suns this season have won only 11 games and have a much lower winning % than the Hawks. Nevertheless, DeAndre Ayton is putting up a 21.5 PER, .144 WS/48, 1.2 VORP and 1.2 BPM. He has done this despite playing the most minutes of anyone on the Suns and despite the Suns putting up fewer wins than any Hawks team that Prince has played on. (Phoenix's rookie swingman Mikal Bridges is also putting up numbers that are significantly better than Prince while playing in this same low in environment).

Um. Playing more minutes just makes it more likely that a player is going to be contributing to WHATEVER NUMBER OF WINS a team has been able to enjoy, no? So there's that.

And because the Hawks' record in games that Prince HAS ACTUALLY PLAYED IN is what is applicable, and that record is 8-20 and largely affected by the lack of wins over the course of the first quarter of the season before his injury happened... that FURTHER affects any BPM related stats one wants to consider. So there's that, too.

I don't want to overstate it, and I don't want to understate it... George is the better player, but the trend line of his first three years and the trend line of Prince's first three years is comparable offensively with the exception of rebounding.

It should also be noted, and I failed to note it until now, that George played SG his first two years. As a 6-9 guy. Again, that's an advantage that he had Danny Granger beside him playing the 3, because of the match-up problems the two of them together were able to present night after night.

First off, I made the point that a team's total wins is a red herring for explaining a lot of these numbers. A team's W/L is just not a part of the formula for these stats. So if a low number of wins translates into worse numbers as you have suggested that is because the team is being outscore when the player is on the floor. If a player is playing limited minutes, however, then they have the opportunity to enjoy a different effect from team success because their units might have a much more positive +/- than other minutes the team is playing. The next logical step here is that playing a lot of minutes means your time on the floor is going to correlate to the team's overall success and so a low win team will drag your numbers down.

My shortform view on this is that Prince is so far away from George right now (especially when properly compared at the same age) that we shouldn't be using their names in the same sentence.

I believe we MUST give this the balance of this season to give Prince any level-headed serious assessment. Too many are being premature in their judgments, largely based on a single mention in a single tweet that his name was brought up in at least one trade discussion.

I read this to say that how Prince develops is still very much up in the air and that arriving at any conclusion on the player he will be is premature and I largely agree with that. The only caveat I would offer is that this cuts both ways - he might develop in a very positive direction and prove he is a cornerstone player or he might develop in a very negative way that diminishes his value. For me, an important unknown is whether Schlenk wants him around or not. If he doesn't, then I'd be actively engaged in trade discussions now before his development is cemented. By doing that we made a smart trade with Adrein Payne before his value cratered. I am sure Prince's value won't crater like that but a team might view him as a very strong young player now and be willing to deal assets based on that high end value in which case it would absolutely make sense to pull the trigger.

If I were the GM personally, I would wait and see what he does. But Schlenk doesn't always do the same things I would do and it strikes me as rationale to deal him if you can get high end value for him and if you are pretty sure your future swingmen are Huerter a player from this year's lottery.

[Buzzard]

I think the Raptors really need to make the NBA Finals, if they want to keep Leonard.

I thought TOR had a decent shot to keep Kawhi if they could make a surprise run to the Finals. But seeing that Kawhi just bought a house in SoCal and this ridiculously cold weather in the North...I, sadly, think it's a long shot he re-ups in TOR on a long-term deal.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

If he walks that trade will go down as one of the worse in the past decade; and should be a warning for every small market team entering next seasons AD trade sweepstakes.

[Jamaaliver]

If he walks that trade will go down as one of the worse in the past decade; and should be a warning for every small market team entering next seasons AD trade sweepstakes.

Really?!?

I still view it as a shrewd gamble. Losing DeRozan obviously hurts, but they seem capable of a few different options should they lose Kawhi for nothing.

We've seen them compete when Kawhi sits out games this year, so a core of Lowry, Siakam, Ibaka, OG Anunoby feels like they won't completely fall apart. And if they choose to rebuild, those same players have solid trade value around the league.

It was a huge gamble for a franchise willing to bet everything ona shot at true contention.

[Atlanta Hawk Fan]

If he walks that trade will go down as one of the worse in the past decade; and should be a warning for every small market team entering next seasons AD trade sweepstakes.

Really?!?

I still view it as a shrewd gamble. Losing DeRozan obviously hurts, but they seem capable of a few different options should they lose Kawhi for nothing.

We've seen them compete when Kawhi sits out games this year, so a core of Lowry, Siakam, Ibaka, OG Anunoby feels like they won't completely fall apart. And if they choose to rebuild, those same players have solid trade value around the league.

It was a huge gamble for a franchise willing to bet everything ona shot at true contention.

I agree. Losing Demar Derozan hurts but isn't the end of the world. They were coming to the end of an era with Lowry and Derozan and the time was right for making a high risk / high reward type of move to try to get them over the hump. They weren't going to be contenders otherwise (just also rans who finished with a high seed in the East but had very little chance of making any noise deep into the playoffs).

[Buzzard]

If he walks that trade will go down as one of the worse in the past decade; and should be a warning for every small market team entering next seasons AD trade sweepstakes.

Really?!?

I still view it as a shrewd gamble. Losing DeRozan obviously hurts, but they seem capable of a few different options should they lose Kawhi for nothing.

We've seen them compete when Kawhi sits out games this year, so a core of Lowry, Siakam, Ibaka, OG Anunoby feels like they won't completely fall apart. And if they choose to rebuild, those same players have solid trade value around the league.

It was a huge gamble for a franchise willing to bet everything ona shot at true contention.

I understand why they did it; but think they misjudged the total impact difference between DeRozan and Leonard. I don't think Leonard is a LeBron, Durant, or Giannis. One step down from them and I think the Raps were counting on a similar impact as them. A little note on what I am talking about: Pops has DeRozan hitting his highest assist and rebound numbers in his career. Just 1 rebound a game under Leonard and 3 assist more a game than Leonard.

2019/20 will be a complete waste if Leonard walks, similar to us when Horford walked and we still had SAP. Maybe just scratching out a playoff birth. 2020 they will be in full rebuild with both IBaka and Lowry coming off the books. I like Siakam's future a lot but OG is not standing out enough for me to call him a future starter.

[kg01]

If he walks that trade will go down as one of the worse in the past decade; and should be a warning for every small market team entering next seasons AD trade sweepstakes.

Really?!?

I still view it as a shrewd gamble. Losing DeRozan obviously hurts, but they seem capable of a few different options should they lose Kawhi for nothing.

We've seen them compete when Kawhi sits out games this year, so a core of Lowry, Siakam, Ibaka, OG Anunoby feels like they won't completely fall apart. And if they choose to rebuild, those same players have solid trade value around the league.

It was a huge gamble for a franchise willing to bet everything ona shot at true contention.

I agree. Losing Demar Derozan hurts but isn't the end of the world. They were coming to the end of an era with Lowry and Derozan and the time was right for making a high risk / high reward type of move to try to get them over the hump. They weren't going to be contenders otherwise (just also rans who finished with a high seed in the East but had very little chance of making any noise deep into the playoffs).

As much as it pains my soul, I gotta agree with AH and jamalll on this one.

TOR was facing a reckoning with that core. This way, they get to test drive Leonard. If it doesn't work out, step 1 of their rebuild (shedding Derozan's contract) is already done. Everyone else is easily moved as needed.

Plus, if you're their GM, you buy yourself years of employment by selling the "rebuilding" dream. Otherwise, he would've likely been jettisoned along with Lowry/Derozan once their typical playoff-fade happened.