Political Roundtable Part XXIV

[JWizmentality]

I would encourage people, more people that is, to make use of the ignore button (as per Monte).

I also like what Ruz said about respect.

And I always enjoy Doc's posts which are consistently thoughtful and educational.
Many of the rest of you are as well.

I think the folks that want him banned should use ignore for a while and see how that
works. Having said that, I did recently ponder whether one particular screed violated the TOS
but I don't remember saying the result should be a banning.

Yeah, I agree with just using Ignore, and if you don't use ignore, do NOT quote him - which I've been guilty of doing.

Very guilty indeed.

[doclinkin]

i'm sure there will not be a lack of political disagreements even if we lose a common enemy to hurl insults towards.

like i'm sure there are differing opinions on this:

Read on Twitter

Interestingly this is one thing STD advocated for, in his all-over-the-map political scramble for controversial opinions.

FWIW I'm down for this. No chance the Trumps are.

[Zonkerbl]

No need to pm. SD20 and other people who intentionally believe lies because it makes them feel better add nothing to the discussion and are the reason the thread gets hostile. The discussion sans idiots is fine. Politics is not shouting lalala and refusing to acknowledge facts. We have an insults throwing thread for the toddlers out there that find such stupidity interesting. Anyone who deliberately trolls a board trying to have a serious discussion just to irritate people deserves to be bounced.

[nate33]

i'm sure there will not be a lack of political disagreements even if we lose a common enemy to hurl insults towards.

like i'm sure there are differing opinions on this:

Read on Twitter

Interestingly this is one thing STD advocated for, in his all-over-the-map political scramble for controversial opinions.

FWIW I'm down for this. No chance the Trumps are.

I'm in favor of ways to try and get the wealthiest 1% to pay a greater share of taxes. I'm just leery that attempts to do so will ultimately cause enough capital flight to render the whole process counter-productive.

Usually, attempts to tax the top 1% end up taxing the top 2-10% (the small business owners and high end professionals) while the top 1% lobby Congress for loopholes.

Also, death taxes are notoriously counter-productive because they're very difficult and expensive to assess, and potential taxpayers just find ways to transfer the money before dying.

[pancakes3]

i wouldn't worry too much about capital flight because most billionaires don't have a scrooge mcduckian pool of cash that they swim in, and are relatively illiquid.

stocks, real estate, and other investment vehicles comprise the bulk of wealth, and can't be moved very easily, even through loopholes. if they do, it's likely illegal, and the reason it happens isn't bc of a structural defect (codified loopholes) but rather an enforcement problem (we don't have enough IRS and SEC agents/lawyers to catch them all).

i think the gist of a wealth tax is to make it too costly to keep these sources of generational wealth, forcing liquidation, and redistribution. it still remains that even with liquidation, the only people wealthy enough to purchase are also wealthy, resulting in a trickle-down problem, and that real hoarders of wealth are those who can never die - corporations. the horrors that engles and marx predicted of late stage capitalism are rearing their ugly head and it's becoming a problem.

but as for bernie's plan, personally i think taxing 3.5-10 mil is too low a threshold, and goes into Nate's worry that it's harming the 10%ers and not the 1%ers, but that's a worthwhile conversation, and the sort of discourse that i wish this thread could have.

to bring it back to the SD, even if facially SD and I agree on redistribution of wealth, it's impossible to have this dialogue with him because inevitably it would diverge into how he rose up from crackhead parents or some other piece of irrelevant, nonresponsive piece of anecdote that shuts down dialogue rather than facilitates it.

[doclinkin]

i'm sure there will not be a lack of political disagreements even if we lose a common enemy to hurl insults towards.

like i'm sure there are differing opinions on this:

Read on Twitter

Interestingly this is one thing STD advocated for, in his all-over-the-map political scramble for controversial opinions.

FWIW I'm down for this. No chance the Trumps are.

I'm in favor of ways to try and get the wealthiest 1% to pay a greater share of taxes. I'm just leery that attempts to do so will ultimately cause enough capital flight to render the whole process counter-productive.

Usually, attempts to tax the top 1% end up taxing the top 2-10% (the small business owners and high end professionals) while the top 1% lobby Congress for loopholes.

Also, death taxes are notoriously counter-productive because they're very difficult and expensive to assess, and potential taxpayers just find ways to transfer the money before dying.

I like this proposal, since wealth passed from one generation to the next is static and does not contribute to anything but creating hereditary royalty. But my ears are open on better ways to tax the ultra elite. Do you have other suggestions?

[Zonkerbl]

I don't know much about taxes. I think first the rate on investment income should match the corporate income tax rate. From 20 to 22. Then experiment with more drastic stuff.

[Zonkerbl]

A lot of economic theory only works if households behave as if they are infinitely lived. You need motivation for old people to invest, they're the ones with all the money. Although that's less of a problem now I think with skills investment replacing physical investment.

[stilldropin20]

i'm sure there will not be a lack of political disagreements even if we lose a common enemy to hurl insults towards.

like i'm sure there are differing opinions on this:

Read on Twitter

Interestingly this is one thing STD advocated for, in his all-over-the-map political scramble for controversial opinions.

FWIW I'm down for this. No chance the Trumps are.

I certainly have been over the top but i believe 100% in every single political theory I postulateed here on this site. especially this estate tax.

but as i said then...the tax wont work if you dont first trap the wealth.

pancakes is dead wrong. You can easily tranfer ownership of massive real estate with a quit claim deed. It takes 3 days to record in most states.

So the reality is that i can quit claim, say $100 Million in various LLC(or personal) real estate holdings into a (non-profit) trust of my creation in 3 days tops. Once i transfer it to the trust its untouchable under current tax codes.

I can also set up said trust off shore if the US tax codes become too harsh.

So the reality is that Bernies bill is lip service. Its fake! Its phony....UNLESS!!!!......UNLESS...you first trap the wealth here in the US. You must first make a law that makes it illegal for US citizens to remove their wealth from the US banking systems. <---and this MUST BE A COVERT law. Congress must pass this law in the secrecy of the night and the president must sign immediately before it leaks out. But if 1 single person in congress leaks the law before its enacted, then wealthy established elites will immediately transfer their wealth off shore and no matter our tax laws, we wont be able to touch it.

^^^without that??? this tax law would be a farce and only end up taxing unwitting "new wealth." Everyone else would simply scatter.

So the order is:

1. Repatriate wealth into the US banking systems by dropping the taxes and high performing economy. This will repatriate the most american and foreign wealth. Then make it illegal for american wealth to be stored or registered or conveyed to off shore accounts without severe penalty. <--like 60-80%.

2. After you repatriate as much wealth as possible with low taxes as the bait...overyears...then you pass an "american wealth entrapment tax law" where upon removing wealth from the US banking system and US territory's or upon conveyance to any type of trusts/non-profits...upon doing so...you immediately pay a tax. I would hit them with a tax of at least 50% tax for "wealth" over....say...$10 Million?? and 40% at $2 Million prorated up to 50% at $10 M. and less punitive 30% tax on wealth from "mom and pop" valued at $2 million or less (if they remove it from our banking systems or transfer it to trusts). <--the point is to allow people to become millionaires...but not billionaires..or really worth over $10-20 million.

3. Once (1 and 2) above are in place then you pass Bernies law. But 1 and 2 must be done first or else its lip service.

4. and this one is the most important. force owners of corporations to realize income. via distribution, or dividend. doesn't matter...close down all loop holes for corps that have gross income over $20 million that allow these corps to unfairly offset income. make them realize this income!!

if you dont do all 4 you will be leaving at least 90% of the wealth untouched. They elites pay money managers millions of dollars per year to be ahead of these things. And they pay congressional lawyers and lobbiest millions more to know what "changes will be made to any tax code."

Because get this. We can actually confiscate all of their wealth almost over night if you do what I describe. And that know it. Trust me they know it. And there is no reason why every single one of you should not immediately agree with what i outline above. NO. REASON. AT. ALL.

markets will destabilize? Who give AF!! We would be collect over 15 Trillion in tax revenue in less than 5 years. It will more than make up for what ever happens in the markets and such. With 15 trillion you could pay off every americans morgage/ student loans and health care.

call it ground zero. The Playing field would be as level as is could be. and then every 100 years (or so) we should agree to rinse and repeat. Every 100 years (or so) we should reset the wealth scales. for wealth over $10 million (USD 2019). There is not reason for someone to have that much power. Its too much power in one place. Even $10-20 M is a lot of power. trust me. I know.

[stilldropin20]

i wouldn't worry too much about capital flight because most billionaires don't have a scrooge mcduckian pool of cash that they swim in, and are relatively illiquid.

stocks, real estate, and other investment vehicles comprise the bulk of wealth, and can't be moved very easily, even through loopholes. if they do, it's likely illegal, and the reason it happens isn't bc of a structural defect (codified loopholes) but rather an enforcement problem (we don't have enough IRS and SEC agents/lawyers to catch them all).

i think the gist of a wealth tax is to make it too costly to keep these sources of generational wealth, forcing liquidation, and redistribution. it still remains that even with liquidation, the only people wealthy enough to purchase are also wealthy, resulting in a trickle-down problem, and that real hoarders of wealth are those who can never die - corporations. the horrors that engles and marx predicted of late stage capitalism are rearing their ugly head and it's becoming a problem.

but as for bernie's plan, personally i think taxing 3.5-10 mil is too low a threshold, and goes into Nate's worry that it's harming the 10%ers and not the 1%ers, but that's a worthwhile conversation, and the sort of discourse that i wish this thread could have.

to bring it back to the SD, even if facially SD and I agree on redistribution of wealth, it's impossible to have this dialogue with him because inevitably it would diverge into how he rose up from crackhead parents or some other piece of irrelevant, nonresponsive piece of anecdote that shuts down dialogue rather than facilitates it.

This is entirely incorrect. Big wealth is moved rather easily. and is purposefully structured so as to make it as mobile as possible. You really dont think that Billionaires dont have plans in place in case of armageddon??

Wealth is easily transferred from personal and corporate holding into trusts. Even real estate only takes 10 minutes to fill out a quit claim deed and 2-3 days to record if you expedited the recording. The cost are about $300 dollars.

transferring stocks and bonds into a trust takes 10 minutes (at most) while sitting on your computer.

Transferring cash in personal/ corporate accounts into trusts takes about 30 seconds.

Trusts can be registered off shore. Here in the US. Or any country in the entire world. There are many countries with favorable tax laws for wealth held in trusts.

[stilldropin20]

No need to pm. SD20 and other people who intentionally believe lies because it makes them feel better add nothing to the discussion and are the reason the thread gets hostile. The discussion sans idiots is fine. Politics is not shouting lalala and refusing to acknowledge facts. We have an insults throwing thread for the toddlers out there that find such stupidity interesting. Anyone who deliberately trolls a board trying to have a serious discussion just to irritate people deserves to be bounced.

i dont beleive lies. Many posters here are completely uninformed. misinformed. disinformed. and naive.

nobody here has posted a single shred of factual evidence that punches a hole in anything i have posted. No. One. and not ONE. SINGLE. SHRED.

Rather, the liberal posters here live in an uniformed bubble and post differing opinions usually based on disinformation.

The left wants their base upset. Its the only way they can get their base to the polls. They use fear tactics and scare tactics and outright lies to fire up and scare their base to the polls.

[stilldropin20]

i'm sure there will not be a lack of political disagreements even if we lose a common enemy to hurl insults towards.

like i'm sure there are differing opinions on this:

Read on Twitter

Interestingly this is one thing STD advocated for, in his all-over-the-map political scramble for controversial opinions.

FWIW I'm down for this. No chance the Trumps are.

I'm in favor of ways to try and get the wealthiest 1% to pay a greater share of taxes. I'm just leery that attempts to do so will ultimately cause enough capital flight to render the whole process counter-productive.

Usually, attempts to tax the top 1% end up taxing the top 2-10% (the small business owners and high end professionals) while the top 1% lobby Congress for loopholes.

Also, death taxes are notoriously counter-productive because they're very difficult and expensive to assess, and potential taxpayers just find ways to transfer the money before dying.

bernies plan will indeed induce capital flight. And you'll end with a tax code that only hurts nouvaue riche..which is the OPPOSITE of the intended desire. Or is it?? This way(with bernies plan) no one will ever threaten established wealth as no one will get rich enough to take away some of their market. It takes money to make money.

So you must first repatriate wealth. Then punish those that remove wealth from the US markets and US banking system. All trusts must be punished upon transfer overseas.

[nate33]

I like this proposal, since wealth passed from one generation to the next is static and does not contribute to anything but creating hereditary royalty. But my ears are open on better ways to tax the ultra elite. Do you have other suggestions?

Since the dawn of democracy, populist uprisings have tried to find effective ways to tax the ultra rich. It's easier said than done. This is the reason that socialist countries tend to lag capitalist countries economically over the long term.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to address the massive wealth inequality in this country; we definitely should. I'm just saying it's hard.

[pancakes3]

i wouldn't worry too much about capital flight because most billionaires don't have a scrooge mcduckian pool of cash that they swim in, and are relatively illiquid.

stocks, real estate, and other investment vehicles comprise the bulk of wealth, and can't be moved very easily, even through loopholes. if they do, it's likely illegal, and the reason it happens isn't bc of a structural defect (codified loopholes) but rather an enforcement problem (we don't have enough IRS and SEC agents/lawyers to catch them all).

i think the gist of a wealth tax is to make it too costly to keep these sources of generational wealth, forcing liquidation, and redistribution. it still remains that even with liquidation, the only people wealthy enough to purchase are also wealthy, resulting in a trickle-down problem, and that real hoarders of wealth are those who can never die - corporations. the horrors that engles and marx predicted of late stage capitalism are rearing their ugly head and it's becoming a problem.

but as for bernie's plan, personally i think taxing 3.5-10 mil is too low a threshold, and goes into Nate's worry that it's harming the 10%ers and not the 1%ers, but that's a worthwhile conversation, and the sort of discourse that i wish this thread could have.

to bring it back to the SD, even if facially SD and I agree on redistribution of wealth, it's impossible to have this dialogue with him because inevitably it would diverge into how he rose up from crackhead parents or some other piece of irrelevant, nonresponsive piece of anecdote that shuts down dialogue rather than facilitates it.

This is entirely incorrect. Big wealth is moved rather easily. and is purposefully structured so as to make it as mobile as possible. You really dont think that Billionaires dont have plans in place in case of armageddon??

Wealth is easily transferred from personal and corporate holding into trusts. Even real estate only takes 10 minutes to fill out a quit claim deed and 2-3 days to record if you expedited the recording. The cost are about $300 dollars.

transferring stocks and bonds into a trust takes 10 minutes (at most) while sitting on your computer.

Transferring cash in personal/ corporate accounts into trusts takes about 30 seconds.

Trusts can be registered off shore. Here in the US. Or any country in the entire world. There are many countries with favorable tax laws for wealth held in trusts.

literally everything you described is a taxed event.

[stilldropin20]

i wouldn't worry too much about capital flight because most billionaires don't have a scrooge mcduckian pool of cash that they swim in, and are relatively illiquid.

stocks, real estate, and other investment vehicles comprise the bulk of wealth, and can't be moved very easily, even through loopholes. if they do, it's likely illegal, and the reason it happens isn't bc of a structural defect (codified loopholes) but rather an enforcement problem (we don't have enough IRS and SEC agents/lawyers to catch them all).

i think the gist of a wealth tax is to make it too costly to keep these sources of generational wealth, forcing liquidation, and redistribution. it still remains that even with liquidation, the only people wealthy enough to purchase are also wealthy, resulting in a trickle-down problem, and that real hoarders of wealth are those who can never die - corporations. the horrors that engles and marx predicted of late stage capitalism are rearing their ugly head and it's becoming a problem.

but as for bernie's plan, personally i think taxing 3.5-10 mil is too low a threshold, and goes into Nate's worry that it's harming the 10%ers and not the 1%ers, but that's a worthwhile conversation, and the sort of discourse that i wish this thread could have.

to bring it back to the SD, even if facially SD and I agree on redistribution of wealth, it's impossible to have this dialogue with him because inevitably it would diverge into how he rose up from crackhead parents or some other piece of irrelevant, nonresponsive piece of anecdote that shuts down dialogue rather than facilitates it.

This is entirely incorrect. Big wealth is moved rather easily. and is purposefully structured so as to make it as mobile as possible. You really dont think that Billionaires dont have plans in place in case of armageddon??

Wealth is easily transferred from personal and corporate holding into trusts. Even real estate only takes 10 minutes to fill out a quit claim deed and 2-3 days to record if you expedited the recording. The cost are about $300 dollars.

transferring stocks and bonds into a trust takes 10 minutes (at most) while sitting on your computer.

Transferring cash in personal/ corporate accounts into trusts takes about 30 seconds.

Trusts can be registered off shore. Here in the US. Or any country in the entire world. There are many countries with favorable tax laws for wealth held in trusts.

literally everything you described is a taxed event.

wrong. there is zero tax on a quit claim deed where the sale amount is $0.00. i can quit claim...right now. $10,000,000 (of value) in real estate to anyone i want in the US (via their non profit trust/foundation)...(or to any corp trust/ foundation/etc.) for $0.00 dollars and no one pays any tax whatsoever until the receiver(non profit) of that real estate sells it (for profit)...and even then they can intelligently "expense out" the "profits."

....and if i quit claim it to a non-profit...and they use the address of this real estate as the headquarters for their or any other non profit they wont even pay local real estate taxes.

Any and all wealth tranferred to a Non profit is not only NOT TAXED but it would be a personal (up to $13K) or corporate write off in entirety of structured properly. the non profit can then structure and expense out this "income" intelligently so as to minimize its tax burden to almost nothing.

so if i had $1 billion in cash....i could buy $1 billion in real estate with said cash. Quit claim that personal real estate to a foundation or trust for $0.00 dollars...and I could do all that in less than 10 days. Cash closings on real estate can easily occur in 5-7 days and that with legal and due dilligence for title insurance. then quit claim it for $0.00 dollars and no one pays any tax. other than closing costs and transfer stamp tax (1-2%). The receiver of the real estate NEVER has to sell....just keep quit claiming to their heirs for $0.00 dollars.

Its the oldest loop hole on the books. if you dont know anything about this then you should never ever ecver ecver open your mouth in regard to tax policy. because You just dont know anything. you dont know the simplest ABC's of wealth management.

What's more is the heirs or receivers can then borrow (at least 80%) against this theoretical $1 billion (value) of real estate (held in their non profit trust) at low interested rates and use that "debt" to offset any rental income produced by said property. and even...get this....buy more real estate. Rinse and repeat.

[pancakes3]

This is entirely incorrect. Big wealth is moved rather easily. and is purposefully structured so as to make it as mobile as possible. You really dont think that Billionaires dont have plans in place in case of armageddon??

Wealth is easily transferred from personal and corporate holding into trusts. Even real estate only takes 10 minutes to fill out a quit claim deed and 2-3 days to record if you expedited the recording. The cost are about $300 dollars.

transferring stocks and bonds into a trust takes 10 minutes (at most) while sitting on your computer.

Transferring cash in personal/ corporate accounts into trusts takes about 30 seconds.

Trusts can be registered off shore. Here in the US. Or any country in the entire world. There are many countries with favorable tax laws for wealth held in trusts.

literally everything you described is a taxed event.

wrong. there is zero tax on a quit claim deed where the sale amount is $0.00. i can quit claim...right now. $10,000,000 (of value) in real estate to anyone i want in the US (via their trust or foundation)...(or to any corp trust/ foundation/etc.) for $0.00 dollars and no one pays no tax until the reciever of that real estate sells it (for profit).

....and if i quit claim it to a non-profit...and they use the address of this real estate as the headquarters for their or any other non profit they wont even pay local real estate taxes.

Any and all wealth tranferred to a Non profit is not only NOT TAXED but it would be a personal (up to $13K) or corporate write off in entirety of structured properly. the non profit can then structure and expense out this "income" intelligently so as to minimize its tax burden to almost nothing.

so if i had $1 billion in cash....i could buy $1 billion in real estate with said cash. Quit claim that personal real estate to a foundation or trust for $0.00 dollars...and I could do all that in less than 10 days. Cash closings on real estate can easily occur in 5-7 days and that with legal and due dilligence for title insurance. then quit claim it for $0.00 dollars and no one pays any tax. other than closing costs and transfer stamp tax (1-2%). The receiver of the real estate NEVER has to sell....just keep quit claiming to their heirs for $0.00 dollars.

Its the oldest loop hole on the books. if you dont know anything about this then you should never ever ecver ecver open your mouth in regard to tax policy. because You just dont know anything. you dont know the simplest ABC's of wealth management.

What's more is the heirs or receivers can then borrow (at least 80%) against this theoretical $1 billion (value) of real estate (held in their non profit trust) at low interested rates and use that "debt" to offset any rental income produced by said property. and even...get this....buy more real estate. Rinse and repeat.

while it's true that when someone conveys to a trust or charity, the transaction is exempt from taxes, if the trust or charity sells it or gifts it, that's another taxable event. you can't just "keep quit claiming it" to heirs because the second that property is given to an individual and not a trust or nonprofit, it's subject to gift tax at fair market value, not cost basis.

also, you don't need legal and due diligence for title insurance if using a quit claim deed, because it's a quit claim deed.

[stilldropin20]

literally everything you described is a taxed event.

wrong. there is zero tax on a quit claim deed where the sale amount is $0.00. i can quit claim...right now. $10,000,000 (of value) in real estate to anyone i want in the US (via their trust or foundation)...(or to any corp trust/ foundation/etc.) for $0.00 dollars and no one pays no tax until the reciever of that real estate sells it (for profit).

....and if i quit claim it to a non-profit...and they use the address of this real estate as the headquarters for their or any other non profit they wont even pay local real estate taxes.

Any and all wealth tranferred to a Non profit is not only NOT TAXED but it would be a personal (up to $13K) or corporate write off in entirety of structured properly. the non profit can then structure and expense out this "income" intelligently so as to minimize its tax burden to almost nothing.

so if i had $1 billion in cash....i could buy $1 billion in real estate with said cash. Quit claim that personal real estate to a foundation or trust for $0.00 dollars...and I could do all that in less than 10 days. Cash closings on real estate can easily occur in 5-7 days and that with legal and due dilligence for title insurance. then quit claim it for $0.00 dollars and no one pays any tax. other than closing costs and transfer stamp tax (1-2%). The receiver of the real estate NEVER has to sell....just keep quit claiming to their heirs for $0.00 dollars.

Its the oldest loop hole on the books. if you dont know anything about this then you should never ever ecver ecver open your mouth in regard to tax policy. because You just dont know anything. you dont know the simplest ABC's of wealth management.

What's more is the heirs or receivers can then borrow (at least 80%) against this theoretical $1 billion (value) of real estate (held in their non profit trust) at low interested rates and use that "debt" to offset any rental income produced by said property. and even...get this....buy more real estate. Rinse and repeat.

while it's true that when someone conveys to a trust or charity, the transaction is exempt from taxes, if the trust or charity sells it or gifts it, that's another taxable event. you can't just "keep quit claiming it" to heirs because the second that property is given to an individual and not a trust or nonprofit, it's subject to gift tax at fair market value, not cost basis.

also, you don't need legal and due diligence for title insurance if using a quit claim deed, because it's a quit claim deed.

bro...just stop. i forgot far more about all of this than you will ever know. I personally manage 3 real estate portfolios for the same family worth over $200 billion.

there is no need to ever realize the transfer as personal income. We're talking about multimillionaires here. they dont need the income. their bills are paid. they dont need to "show" the income. The point is to avoid taxes. So when they transwer from non-profit it is to another non profit or they convey or "distribute" ownership to another non profit (that their heirs create).

In my example above the initial "title insurance search" is for newly purchased (personal) or corporate property . can be done in 5-7 reasonable days to issue title insurance.

once that initial (personal) purchase is complete. you can then transfer all of that wealth to (your) non-profit via quitclaim deed and pay no tax. In most cases you can avoid transfer tax (by basically making the sale amount $0.00).

at this point the real estate is now held in your non-profit.

you can transfer ("distribute") the non profit to your heirs or spouse tax free. and they can transfer ("distribute")it to their heir's non profit for ever and ever. until the end of time. and never pay a dime in transfer taxes. This is the oldest and most abused tax loophole on the books.

you can even intelligently expense out annual revenue produced by said property by borrowing against the property...usually at extremely low interest rates because investment bankers will gladly take first position on title for 3-3.5%<--thats a real 3-3.5%...not the APR crap a personal/corporate bank pulls where you pay 96% of the interest in the first 7 years of the loan and at 5-6%.

the interest paid can be used to offset income in that given year and the debt can be ammortized out over 12-30 years to offset income as well.

If structured properly...you can get away with never ever ever paying a single dollar in taxes. NOT EVEN LOCAL REAL ESTATE TAXES.

But FTR, this is generally not how it occurs. Generally speaking a (for profit) corporation expenses out real estate purchases to offset annual income on its corporate tax returns... and then donates that real estate to non profits owned by the same individual (s). and generally speaking better portfolio managers will direct accountants to itemize the initial purchase under research and development and or expansion for the corporation...because it allows for single year write off to the corp. The "gift" to the non-profit is a write as well. So its like a "double corporate write off" because business will often borrow 50-80% of the money to make the initial purchase. the debt remains with the corporation who expenses it out appropriately depending on classification of interest (same year)vs depreciation (over time).

The real estate (and its full value) is now under full ownership and control of the non profit. tax free. and usually debt free. but the initial debt from purchase can be carried over if this asset was used as collateral.

but here's the deal...you dont even "have to" jump through these hoops...which are not difficult at all to execute. You can simply roll up the real estate into a massive "trading" LLC and hold the properties for over 1 year and only pay capital gains tax (20%). When you sell. But before you sell you borrow against it...generally at 80-90% LTV. The debt offsets the profits significantly and your only paying 20% on whatever minimal gains you show at the sale. The "cash out" is used for anything....like biuying more real estate.

These are just 2 loop holes used within the USA. There are other loopholes which are essentially variations on these main 2.

Then there are off shore loop holes. which are even easier to execute and depending on the country you register your corporate holdings, your corp only pays as little 0% and up to 10% taxes on the profits. Thats it.

[pancakes3]

wrong. there is zero tax on a quit claim deed where the sale amount is $0.00. i can quit claim...right now. $10,000,000 (of value) in real estate to anyone i want in the US (via their trust or foundation)...(or to any corp trust/ foundation/etc.) for $0.00 dollars and no one pays no tax until the reciever of that real estate sells it (for profit).

....and if i quit claim it to a non-profit...and they use the address of this real estate as the headquarters for their or any other non profit they wont even pay local real estate taxes.

Any and all wealth tranferred to a Non profit is not only NOT TAXED but it would be a personal (up to $13K) or corporate write off in entirety of structured properly. the non profit can then structure and expense out this "income" intelligently so as to minimize its tax burden to almost nothing.

so if i had $1 billion in cash....i could buy $1 billion in real estate with said cash. Quit claim that personal real estate to a foundation or trust for $0.00 dollars...and I could do all that in less than 10 days. Cash closings on real estate can easily occur in 5-7 days and that with legal and due dilligence for title insurance. then quit claim it for $0.00 dollars and no one pays any tax. other than closing costs and transfer stamp tax (1-2%). The receiver of the real estate NEVER has to sell....just keep quit claiming to their heirs for $0.00 dollars.

Its the oldest loop hole on the books. if you dont know anything about this then you should never ever ecver ecver open your mouth in regard to tax policy. because You just dont know anything. you dont know the simplest ABC's of wealth management.

What's more is the heirs or receivers can then borrow (at least 80%) against this theoretical $1 billion (value) of real estate (held in their non profit trust) at low interested rates and use that "debt" to offset any rental income produced by said property. and even...get this....buy more real estate. Rinse and repeat.

while it's true that when someone conveys to a trust or charity, the transaction is exempt from taxes, if the trust or charity sells it or gifts it, that's another taxable event. you can't just "keep quit claiming it" to heirs because the second that property is given to an individual and not a trust or nonprofit, it's subject to gift tax at fair market value, not cost basis.

also, you don't need legal and due diligence for title insurance if using a quit claim deed, because it's a quit claim deed.

bro...just stop. i forgot far more about all of this than you will ever know. I personally manage 3 real estate portfolios for the same family worth over $200 billion.

there is no need to ever realize the transfer as personal income. We're talking about multimillionaires here. they dont need the income. their bills are paid. they dont need to "show" the income. The point is to avoid taxes. So when they transwer from non-profit it is to another non profit or they convey or "distribute" ownership to another non profit (that their heirs create).

In my example above the initial "title insurance search" is for newly purchased (personal) or corporate property . can be done in 5-7 reasonable days to issue title insurance.

once that initial (personal) purchase is complete. you can then transfer all of that wealth to (your) non-profit via quitclaim deed and pay no tax. In most cases you can avoid transfer tax (by basically making the sale amount $0.00).

at this point the real estate is now held in your non-profit.

you can transfer ("distribute") the non profit to your heirs or spouse tax free. and they can transfer ("distribute")it to their heir's non profit for ever and ever. until the end of time. and never pay a dime in transfer taxes. This is the oldest and most abused tax loophole on the books.

you can even intelligently expense out annual revenue produced by said property by borrowing against the property...usually at extremely low interest rates because investment bankers will gladly take first position on title for 3-3.5%<--thats a real 3-3.5%...not the APR crap a personal/corporate bank pulls where you pay 96% of the interest in the first 7 years of the loan and at 5-6%.

the interest paid can be used to offset income in that given year and the debt can be ammortized out over 12-30 years to offset income as well.

If structured properly...you can get away with never ever ever paying a single dollar in taxes. NOT EVEN LOCAL REAL ESTATE TAXES.

But FTR, this is generally not how it occurs. Generally speaking a corporation expenses out real estate purchases on its corporate tax returns and donates that real estate to non profits. and generally speaking the better portfolio managers will itemize the initial purchase under research and development and or expansion...because it allows for single year write off. The "gift" to the non profit is a write as well. So its like a "double corporate write off" because business will often borrow to make the initial purchase. the debt remains with the corporation who expense it out appropriately depending on classification of interest vs depreciation.

The real estate (and its full value) is now under full ownership and control of the non profit. tax free.

but here's the deal...you dont even "have to" jump through these hoops...which are not difficult at all to execute. You can simply roll up the real estate into a massive "trading" LLC and hold the properties for over 1 year and only pay capital gains tax (20%). When you sell. But before you sell you borrow against it...generally at 80-90% LTV. The debt offsets the profits significantly and your only paying 20% on whatever minimal gains you show at the sale. The "cash out" is used for anything....like biuying more real estate.

These are just 2 loop holes used within the USA. There are other loopholes which are essentially variations on these main 2.

Then there are off shore loop holes. which are even easier to execute and depending on the country you register your corporate holdings, your corp only pays as little 0% and up to 10% taxes on the profits. Thats it.

like, cool story bro, but nothing you've said is responsive to the original debate of bernie's estate proposal.

the reason you can transfer your wealth to a nonprofit and pay no tax is because it's not your money anymore. and you, and your heirs don't get to use that money as your personal loopholed piggy bank.

if your point is that there are ways to minimize tax obligations within the tax code? yes. there are things you can do that would change your tax obligations within the tax code.

but that's not the point that's being discussed. and, as it seems with every time i try to engage you substantively, i end up saying: i'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

i guess you took issue in me saying that it's "difficult" to move money? i didn't mean that it's physically difficult to move the money. i meant that it's difficult to offload that money abroad compared to cash. not that it's procedurally difficult to move money around.

[stilldropin20]

A lot of economic theory only works if households behave as if they are infinitely lived. You need motivation for old people to invest, they're the ones with all the money. Although that's less of a problem now I think with skills investment replacing physical investment.

another semi-fallacy.

while its true old people hold all the wealth...the actual truth is that the up 10% hold 99.5% of the wealth. and 70% of them hold that wealth in the form of equity in their single family home and they dont know how to make that wealth liquid so as to invest in markets other than the real estate market.

The good news for young(er) people is that when those old people die they convey that wealth to their heirs.

which brings me to another point for young folks. wait. its all coming to you anyway. now if you have broke dick crack head parents like i did then you, yourself are going to have to go out and make some damn money. invest wisely. so your kids wont be as broke and you are. git to it!!!

[stilldropin20]

while it's true that when someone conveys to a trust or charity, the transaction is exempt from taxes, if the trust or charity sells it or gifts it, that's another taxable event. you can't just "keep quit claiming it" to heirs because the second that property is given to an individual and not a trust or nonprofit, it's subject to gift tax at fair market value, not cost basis.

also, you don't need legal and due diligence for title insurance if using a quit claim deed, because it's a quit claim deed.

bro...just stop. i forgot far more about all of this than you will ever know. I personally manage 3 real estate portfolios for the same family worth over $200 billion.

there is no need to ever realize the transfer as personal income. We're talking about multimillionaires here. they dont need the income. their bills are paid. they dont need to "show" the income. The point is to avoid taxes. So when they transwer from non-profit it is to another non profit or they convey or "distribute" ownership to another non profit (that their heirs create).

In my example above the initial "title insurance search" is for newly purchased (personal) or corporate property . can be done in 5-7 reasonable days to issue title insurance.

once that initial (personal) purchase is complete. you can then transfer all of that wealth to (your) non-profit via quitclaim deed and pay no tax. In most cases you can avoid transfer tax (by basically making the sale amount $0.00).

at this point the real estate is now held in your non-profit.

you can transfer ("distribute") the non profit to your heirs or spouse tax free. and they can transfer ("distribute")it to their heir's non profit for ever and ever. until the end of time. and never pay a dime in transfer taxes. This is the oldest and most abused tax loophole on the books.

you can even intelligently expense out annual revenue produced by said property by borrowing against the property...usually at extremely low interest rates because investment bankers will gladly take first position on title for 3-3.5%<--thats a real 3-3.5%...not the APR crap a personal/corporate bank pulls where you pay 96% of the interest in the first 7 years of the loan and at 5-6%.

the interest paid can be used to offset income in that given year and the debt can be ammortized out over 12-30 years to offset income as well.

If structured properly...you can get away with never ever ever paying a single dollar in taxes. NOT EVEN LOCAL REAL ESTATE TAXES.

But FTR, this is generally not how it occurs. Generally speaking a corporation expenses out real estate purchases on its corporate tax returns and donates that real estate to non profits. and generally speaking the better portfolio managers will itemize the initial purchase under research and development and or expansion...because it allows for single year write off. The "gift" to the non profit is a write as well. So its like a "double corporate write off" because business will often borrow to make the initial purchase. the debt remains with the corporation who expense it out appropriately depending on classification of interest vs depreciation.

The real estate (and its full value) is now under full ownership and control of the non profit. tax free.

but here's the deal...you dont even "have to" jump through these hoops...which are not difficult at all to execute. You can simply roll up the real estate into a massive "trading" LLC and hold the properties for over 1 year and only pay capital gains tax (20%). When you sell. But before you sell you borrow against it...generally at 80-90% LTV. The debt offsets the profits significantly and your only paying 20% on whatever minimal gains you show at the sale. The "cash out" is used for anything....like biuying more real estate.

These are just 2 loop holes used within the USA. There are other loopholes which are essentially variations on these main 2.

Then there are off shore loop holes. which are even easier to execute and depending on the country you register your corporate holdings, your corp only pays as little 0% and up to 10% taxes on the profits. Thats it.

like, cool story bro, but nothing you've said is responsive to the original debate of bernie's estate proposal.

the reason you can transfer your wealth to a nonprofit and pay no tax is because it's not your money anymore. and you, and your heirs don't get to use that money as your personal loopholed piggy bank.

if your point is that there are ways to minimize tax obligations within the tax code? yes. there are things you can do that would change your tax obligations within the tax code.

but that's not the point that's being discussed. and, as it seems with every time i try to engage you substantively, i end up saying: i'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

i guess you took issue in me saying that it's "difficult" to move money? i didn't mean that it's physically difficult to move the money. i meant that it's difficult to offload that money abroad compared to cash. not that it's procedurally difficult to move money around.

im sincerely not trying to be difficult nor make you look bad...I'm sorry if i get a bit snippy but it feels like you guys are purposefully not grasping easy concepts just to be disagreeable. I know a lot about this stuff and I'm trying to demonstrate what the legislative hurdles will need to look like in order to have meaningful tax reform.

Specifically, i'm just trying to convey the point that the basic gist behind bernie's bill is a good bill! A great bill!! but its a farce of a bill of you dont "trap" wealth first. the bill means nothing without severe tax penalties for transferring wealth into non profits or off shore. right now those penalties dont exist in any meaningful way.

The other point I'm trying to convey to you is that it is quite easy to make a "hard asset" more liquid by simply borrowing against it. you can cash out of anything that shows cash flow or even (with real estate) that demonstrates value. Bankers will loan you money. Investment bankers might as well. And wealthy elites are well connected. They have lines of credit almost always lined up as they borrow against assets. They are very ready to become almost 100% liquid at almost a moments notice. They are ready for armageddon. And they dont care who "wins" so long as most of their wealth is protected by that "winner."

I've been talking about this for 2 years in this thread. I came to this thread to specifically talk about tax reform. this is THE one single issue that i really really care about. we really can tax have meaningful tax reform and tax the tippy top 1% very hard. the only thing stopping us from doing so is...well...our bought and paid for politicians. Both Dems and GOP are lock step in not pursuing real tax reform...like i said...even bernies bill as it stands if a farce.

Additionally...yes you can treat your non profit almost as your personal piggy bank. sorry. but you can. and almost everybody does. You can transfer wealth and assets in and out of it at will. you just need to expense it out. You can also pay yourself and realize income whenever you want if needed. you can pay other (for profit) corps. etc. Bottom line: non-profits average around 7.5% in actual direct annual charitable donations while they hold over $3 trillion in assets just in the US. Do the math.