Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 7

[I_Like_Dirt]

Dell Demps is basically Ernie on roids. At least Ernie will occasionally make a decent draft pick. Demps avoids draft picks and younger players like the plague. He drafted Davis in 2012 and since then they only draft pick they made was Buddy Hield, and they very quickly traded him in that disaster of a trade for Demarcus Cousins only to watch Hield flourish on the Kings. Oh, they also drafted Tony Carr in the 2nd round last year, so I guess that counts, too - he signed with Fiat Torino and clearly was one of those great draft choices old school GMs make to try to save irrelevantly small costs and not have to bother with scouting or player development or annoying things like that. Even David Stern finally came out this season and flat out said that Demps is a terrible GM. That team is a train wreck. They keep throwing big money at aging FAs who invariably get hurt and wind up overplaying Davis and Jrue until one of them gets hurt, which effectively ends their season, or they run into a playoff team that's just plain better.

[Illmatic12]

I don't think this is all that bad for the NBA as long as there is an honest bidding war for Davis and he goes to the team that puts forward the best package (likely Boston). What would bug me is if Davis and his agent hint that they won't resign with any team but LA, forcing New Orleans to make the trade for the poo-poo platter of Ball, Ingram and future late 1st round picks.

Considering that Anthony Davis just signed with Rich Paul & Klutch Sports, we all knew this was going to happen.

Read on Twitter

The league office will discourage the Pels from trading him to the Lakers (just like the Chris Paul trade), but make no mistake Davis will end up there one way or another. It might just take an extra year.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I don't think this is all that bad for the NBA as long as there is an honest bidding war for Davis and he goes to the team that puts forward the best package (likely Boston). What would bug me is if Davis and his agent hint that they won't resign with any team but LA, forcing New Orleans to make the trade for the poo-poo platter of Ball, Ingram and future late 1st round picks.

I agree about the legitimate bidding war. Yeah, I get that it would be better for teams if the player only asked for a trade quietly and let them go about their work but it would be way worse if a player was going to leave and didn't say anything at all. And it isn't on the player to bail GMs out of what is an obvious situation that was usually brought on by their own incompetence. If you're going to ask for a trade you may as well not surrender all the power in the situation and take some of it back by making sure it goes public.

I'm not so sure the Celtics can put forward the best offer. I think they might but they'd have to include Irving in the trade. For one, they can't actually trade for him this season with Irving still on their roster and for two, if you look at prospective trades without Irving, they don't actually look all that unbeatable. Brown and Rozier don't look like future stars by any stretch, though they look like guys who can get hot from time to time and are decent utility players. Tatum still looks like a future Rashard Lewis to me and I'm not sure why anyone would see otherwise besides this constant pro-Boston sports-media narrative that always seems to be at play. Then you look at their own picks and you know they won't be good. The Clippers pick is starting to look like a future 2nd rounder as they're slowly being squeezed from the playoffs out west - currently 8th and you know Lebron is going to come back and bump them out, and if they don't sign Kawhi or something like that in the offseason they're probably not making the playoffs the season after. The Kings pick will be delivered this season, so maybe a trade on draft day, I guess, but it still isn't looking like a great pick or anything. The Grizzlies pick has a chance to be pretty good but strikes me as the kind of pick that winds up more like the Kings pick or the last Nets pick rather than the first two Nets picks. They can make a good offer, but I don't think they can make an unbeatable one.

[nate33]

I don't think this is all that bad for the NBA as long as there is an honest bidding war for Davis and he goes to the team that puts forward the best package (likely Boston). What would bug me is if Davis and his agent hint that they won't resign with any team but LA, forcing New Orleans to make the trade for the poo-poo platter of Ball, Ingram and future late 1st round picks.

I agree about the legitimate bidding war. Yeah, I get that it would be better for teams if the player only asked for a trade quietly and let them go about their work but it would be way worse if a player was going to leave and didn't say anything at all. And it isn't on the player to bail GMs out of what is an obvious situation that was usually brought on by their own incompetence. If you're going to ask for a trade you may as well not surrender all the power in the situation and take some of it back by making sure it goes public.

I'm not so sure the Celtics can put forward the best offer. I think they might but they'd have to include Irving in the trade. For one, they can't actually trade for him this season with Irving still on their roster and for two, if you look at prospective trades without Irving, they don't actually look all that unbeatable. Brown and Rozier don't look like future stars by any stretch, though they look like guys who can get hot from time to time and are decent utility players. Tatum still looks like a future Rashard Lewis to me and I'm not sure why anyone would see otherwise besides this constant pro-Boston sports-media narrative that always seems to be at play. Then you look at their own picks and you know they won't be good. The Clippers pick is starting to look like a future 2nd rounder as they're slowly being squeezed from the playoffs out west - currently 8th and you know Lebron is going to come back and bump them out, and if they don't sign Kawhi or something like that in the offseason they're probably not making the playoffs the season after. The Kings pick will be delivered this season, so maybe a trade on draft day, I guess, but it still isn't looking like a great pick or anything. The Grizzlies pick has a chance to be pretty good but strikes me as the kind of pick that winds up more like the Kings pick or the last Nets pick rather than the first two Nets picks. They can make a good offer, but I don't think they can make an unbeatable one.

Tatum and the MEM and SAC picks is still a heck of a lot better than Ball, Kuzma and Ingram plus late 1sts.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Tatum and the MEM and SAC picks is still a heck of a lot better than Ball, Kuzma and Ingram plus late 1sts.

True, they can put together a package better than anything LA can do. LA has a rather terrible assortment of assets, though. Ingram isn't good. Ball has some skills but is basically a poor man's John Wall. Hart is an interesting role player but not particularly amazing or anything. Bonga and Wagner are both years away. Kuzma still hasn't given me a reason to believe he's going to be significantly better than Mike Scott. Zubac looks like you'd expect from a player that had the Lakers deciding to drop Thomas Bryant instead but Cs don't have close to the same value they used to anymore.

The Celtics, Raptors, Rockets and Clippers all are potentially able to put together significantly better offers. I'm guessing they're going to be pretty hesitant to do so, though, given the Rich Paul connection. That's what's different than the Kawhi Leonard scenario - Davis is represented by Rich Paul. Having the most influential agent in the league supporting Lebron is a problem that I don't think the league knows how to handle.

Demps is bad so I have no idea how this will go but my gut says he waits this out. He won't want to trade AD anyway. More to the point, the Lakers have Lebron for 4 years. If they wait until free agency they will have burned 2 of those 4 years, and probably the 2 best of those 4 years. To me this seems like a desperation move on the part of Lebron's camp because they know that, too, and they know that Demps will naturally be inclined to just sit on his hands and do nothing but overpay some unworthy vets, Ernie style, next offseason.

[nate33]

I saw a hilarious Anthony Davis trade proposal on the Trade Board, that actually would make a ton of sense:

LA trades: Lebron James
New Orleans trades: Anthony Davis + Wesley Johnson

Lebron would hate it, but he's locked into a 3-year deal and can't do anything about it. For LA, they get Davis on his still cheap $27M contract, freeing up an insane amount of cap room in the offseason to go with Ball, Hart, Ingram, Kuzma and Davis. They'd now make a strong play for Kawhi who wants to go to the LA area, and they'll still have about $24M leftover for another guy, I'm thinking Bledsoe. Then sign Jeff Green and Tyson Chandler to vet minimum contracts. Look at this lineup:

PG Bledsoe/Ball
SG Ingram/Hart
SF Kawhi/Ingram
PF Kuzma/Green
C Davis/Chandler



All the important players are still young and either at the beginning of their peak, or not yet in their peak. That's a dynasty for 4 more years. But the beauty of it is that is screws over Lebron and Rich Paul as punishment for their attempt to manipulate the league!

[verbal8]

If New Orleans does trade Davis to LAL, it would be savy to take 1sts far in future vs. the next couple years. The floor of a current LeBron/Davis team is pretty high. However having Davis in his prime, doesn't guarantee a decent team in the West - so 3 or 4 years down the road things could get rough for the Lakers.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I saw a hilarious Anthony Davis trade proposal on the Trade Board, that actually would make a ton of sense:

LA trades: Lebron James
New Orleans trades: Anthony Davis + Wesley Johnson

Lebron would hate it, but he's locked into a 3-year deal and can't do anything about it. For LA, they get Davis on his still cheap $27M contract, freeing up an insane amount of cap room in the offseason to go with Ball, Hart, Ingram, Kuzma and Davis. They'd now make a strong play for Kawhi who wants to go to the LA area, and they'll still have about $24M leftover for another guy, I'm thinking Bledsoe. Then sign Jeff Green and Tyson Chandler to vet minimum contracts. Look at this lineup:

PG Bledsoe/Ball
SG Ingram/Hart
SF Kawhi/Ingram
PF Kuzma/Green
C Davis/Chandler



All the important players are still young and either at the beginning of their peak, or not yet in their peak. That's a dynasty for 4 more years. But the beauty of it is that is screws over Lebron and Rich Paul as punishment for their attempt to manipulate the league!

This would be beautiful. Lebron is so clearly image conscious, too. He's worried about his branding now more than ever as his career slowly nears its end and suddenly he would find himself in the position where he would have to decide whether or not he'd want the final major years of his career spent toiling away in New Orleans, trying to draw free agents there while he never made the finals again, or sitting out to try and force a trade.

[verbal8]

What if the Clippers get Davis?

I could definitely see the Hornets seeing their leverage slipping away and being very motivated to make a deal.

The Clippers could be a very intriguing destination - they have the pieces to have a good team with Davis this season, they also have the ability to shed salary and lure in Free Agents.

I would guess the deal would center around Gallinari(to a 3rd team) or Harris.

They have a couple rookies and Montrezl Harrell who could be interesting for a rebuild.

If Davis gets there first and they add Leonard or Durant - it is Davis' team and he has an All-Star to share the load.

I saw a hilarious Anthony Davis trade proposal on the Trade Board, that actually would make a ton of sense:

LA trades: Lebron James
New Orleans trades: Anthony Davis + Wesley Johnson

Lebron would hate it, but he's locked into a 3-year deal and can't do anything about it. For LA, they get Davis on his still cheap $27M contract, freeing up an insane amount of cap room in the offseason to go with Ball, Hart, Ingram, Kuzma and Davis. They'd now make a strong play for Kawhi who wants to go to the LA area, and they'll still have about $24M leftover for another guy, I'm thinking Bledsoe. Then sign Jeff Green and Tyson Chandler to vet minimum contracts. Look at this lineup:

PG Bledsoe/Ball
SG Ingram/Hart
SF Kawhi/Ingram
PF Kuzma/Green
C Davis/Chandler



All the important players are still young and either at the beginning of their peak, or not yet in their peak. That's a dynasty for 4 more years. But the beauty of it is that is screws over Lebron and Rich Paul as punishment for their attempt to manipulate the league!

This would be beautiful. Lebron is so clearly image conscious, too. He's worried about his branding now more than ever as his career slowly nears its end and suddenly he would find himself in the position where he would have to decide whether or not he'd want the final major years of his career spent toiling away in New Orleans, trying to draw free agents there while he never made the finals again, or sitting out to try and force a trade.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I do think the Clippers will be there making offers and I also think that they can at least make a deal about as good as the Lakers can. I'm not sold on their pieces for trade overall but they definitely have the kinds of players Demps traditionally gets suckered into trading for. It depends on how aggressive the Clippers are willing to get, though, and I don't think they could beat out teams like Toronto and Boston if they got into the bidding. Still, something centered around Harris, Shai and some other assorted odds and sods seems like the kind of aggressive trade that could make sense. They'd be gambling on AD's ability to draw in free agents himself in free agency in a year when the Lakers and Lebron would also be competing for the same free agents but it could work out and would be a risk worth taking.

I also think the Wizards are actually in a position to put forward a pretty competitive offer for Davis. I don't know that they should but much as the Raptors got Kawhi with Derozan and parts I think the Wizards could come in with Beal and change - let's say Beal, Sato and Bryant - for Davis and I very much doubt other packages would come close to that kind of offer. It's the kind of aggressive play that Ernie never makes but it would allow the team to potentially sit Davis for the season with Wall already out and then rest Porter a bunch, too, and get him healthy and in shape. Next season, they get a season with Wall, Davis and Porter and if they luck out in the draft they might have added Zion or RJ or someone like that, too, or maybe Garland (I really like his game) if they don't move up. Maybe Davis stays, maybe he doesn't, but it would actually be a fun season for a change finding out and even if Davis walked, while losing Beal would sting, I'm not convinced Beal wouldn't walk the following season anyway, or worse, be signed to a Grunfeld supermax special if he ever meets the criteria for it. I don't expect anything nearly so bold from Ernie, though.

[nate33]

What if the Clippers get Davis?

I could definitely see the Hornets seeing their leverage slipping away and being very motivated to make a deal.

The Clippers could be a very intriguing destination - they have the pieces to have a good team with Davis this season, they also have the ability to shed salary and lure in Free Agents.

I would guess the deal would center around Gallinari(to a 3rd team) or Harris.

They have a couple rookies and Montrezl Harrell who could be interesting for a rebuild.

If Davis gets there first and they add Leonard or Durant - it is Davis' team and he has an All-Star to share the load.

I think the Lakers' leverage is slipping away. New Orleans has called their bluff. AD can't actually control his destiny and sign with LA as a free agent until 2020. But the Lakers aren't going to sit out the entire 2019/20 season, foregoing any max free agent acquisitions, all to save room for AD in 2020. Basically, Rich Paul's power play has no real teeth. New Orleans isn't going to rush and trade AD to LA for a poo-poo platter of mediocre young players.

New Orleans is going to wait until the summer and arrange a bidding war between Boston and whomever else wants to get in the game. That's the smart move.

I don't see what the Clippers can offer other than SGA. Gallinari is a 30-year-old on a 1-year deal with a troubling injury history. That's not going to move the needle much. Harrell is a good player, but again, he is on a 1-year deal and he might not look so good when he signs a new contract costing north of $20M a season.

[verbal8]

I also think the Wizards are actually in a position to put forward a pretty competitive offer for Davis. I don't know that they should but much as the Raptors got Kawhi with Derozan and parts I think the Wizards could come in with Beal and change - let's say Beal, Sato and Bryant - for Davis and I very much doubt other packages would come close to that kind of offer. It's the kind of aggressive play that Ernie never makes but it would allow the team to potentially sit Davis for the season with Wall already out and then rest Porter a bunch, too, and get him healthy and in shape. Next season, they get a season with Wall, Davis and Porter and if they luck out in the draft they might have added Zion or RJ or someone like that, too, or maybe Garland (I really like his game) if they don't move up. Maybe Davis stays, maybe he doesn't, but it would actually be a fun season for a change finding out and even if Davis walked, while losing Beal would sting, I'm not convinced Beal wouldn't walk the following season anyway, or worse, be signed to a Grunfeld supermax special if he ever meets the criteria for it. I don't expect anything nearly so bold from Ernie, though.

The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to move Beal.
Either the team needs to rebuild and Beal could be swapped for some nice pieces to do that, or they should swing for the fences and try to get a star to pair with Wall and Porter. Beal + assets seems like one of the strongest offers for any star that is on the trading block.

[Ruzious]

What if the Clippers get Davis?

I could definitely see the Hornets seeing their leverage slipping away and being very motivated to make a deal.

The Clippers could be a very intriguing destination - they have the pieces to have a good team with Davis this season, they also have the ability to shed salary and lure in Free Agents.

I would guess the deal would center around Gallinari(to a 3rd team) or Harris.

They have a couple rookies and Montrezl Harrell who could be interesting for a rebuild.

If Davis gets there first and they add Leonard or Durant - it is Davis' team and he has an All-Star to share the load.

I think the Lakers' leverage is slipping away. New Orleans has called their bluff. AD can't actually control his destiny and sign with LA as a free agent until 2020. But the Lakers aren't going to sit out the entire 2019/20 season, foregoing any max free agent acquisitions, all to save room for AD in 2020. Basically, Rich Paul's power play has no real teeth. New Orleans isn't going to rush and trade AD to LA for a poo-poo platter of mediocre young players.

New Orleans is going to wait until the summer and arrange a bidding war between Boston and whomever else wants to get in the game. That's the smart move.

I don't see what the Clippers can offer other than SGA. Gallinari is a 30-year-old on a 1-year deal with a troubling injury history. That's not going to move the needle much. Harrell is a good player, but again, he is on a 1-year deal and he might not look so good when he signs a new contract costing north of $20M a season.

Yeah, the Clippers have no chance, imo - they are filled with nice solid players - no high value trade pieces - no centerpiece that would be needed for an AD trade.

[Ruzious]

Dallas might be the most interesting team of the future in the NBA. Word is that they're making progress on a trade with the Knicks: Dennis Smith Jr for Porzingis.

[FAH1223]

Dallas might be the most interesting team of the future in the NBA. Word is that they're making progress on a trade with the Knicks: Dennis Smith Jr for Porzingis.

Mavs turned Trae Young and Dennis Smith Jr. into Luka Doncic and Kristaps Porzingis. That's INCREDIBLE.

[FAH1223]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[I_Like_Dirt]

Mavs turned Trae Young and Dennis Smith Jr. into Luka Doncic and Kristaps Porzingis. That's INCREDIBLE.

I'm not so sure. Don't get me wrong, I think Doncic is awesome but I also think Trae Young is pretty damn good, too. I think people are slamming the door on that one far too quickly - I think there's the potential for a Jason Kidd/Steve Nash type of debate there. The Mavs also gave up their pick this season, which seems like it will be a mid-lottery pick, to turn Doncic into Trae Young. I want to see what the Hawks do here. I don't think either team did poorly there, though, because I think they both got quality players though obviously Doncic is more advanced right now. Trae Young started slow because his 3 wasn't falling but it's been falling since about mid-December and he's been much, much better, and the Hawks have been better for it, too.

As for Porzingis, I think they rushed things. I loved DSJ before the draft but I'm no longer convinced. I hope he figures it out and maybe a change of scenery does him good. Porzingis is talking about signing the QO. If he's serious, that's a problem for Dallas. I tend to think he isn't necessarily 100% serious and it's more of a ploy to try and get the Mavs to offer up a fully guaranteed max despite his injury history. If they max Porzingis they've basically locked in their cap for Doncic's rookie contract. I think they're trying to rush things a little too much here.

[pcbothwel]

Mavs turned Trae Young and Dennis Smith Jr. into Luka Doncic and Kristaps Porzingis. That's INCREDIBLE.

I'm not so sure. Don't get me wrong, I think Doncic is awesome but I also think Trae Young is pretty damn good, too. I think people are slamming the door on that one far too quickly - I think there's the potential for a Jason Kidd/Steve Nash type of debate there. The Mavs also gave up their pick this season, which seems like it will be a mid-lottery pick, to turn Doncic into Trae Young. I want to see what the Hawks do here. I don't think either team did poorly there, though, because I think they both got quality players though obviously Doncic is more advanced right now. Trae Young started slow because his 3 wasn't falling but it's been falling since about mid-December and he's been much, much better, and the Hawks have been better for it, too.

As for Porzingis, I think they rushed things. I loved DSJ before the draft but I'm no longer convinced. I hope he figures it out and maybe a change of scenery does him good. Porzingis is talking about signing the QO. If he's serious, that's a problem for Dallas. I tend to think he isn't necessarily 100% serious and it's more of a ploy to try and get the Mavs to offer up a fully guaranteed max despite his injury history. If they max Porzingis they've basically locked in their cap for Doncic's rookie contract. I think they're trying to rush things a little too much here.

NY won this trade...hands down.
Porzingis is overrated, 7'3, and coming off an ACL tear while being an RFA.

The money & the picks are a GREAT haul for the NYK. They will get one of Kemba or Kyrie... and a wing in Butler/KD/Middleton/Harris.
They can then use other assets (DSJ/Frank/Knox/picks) to make a move for AD... or even Aaron Gordon.

And that doesnt even take into account Zion

[Ruzious]

Here's a popcorn worthy thread. viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1798381 After a loss to the Bucks, some Toronto fans now think they should trade Kawhi Leonard.

[nate33]

Here's a popcorn worthy thread. viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1798381 After a loss to the Bucks, some Toronto fans now think they should trade Kawhi Leonard.

It's laughable how badly fans overreact.

Kawhi is a legit MVP candidate and Toronto has the 2nd best record in the league, and they're suggesting that they trade Kawhi and try and build for the future.