Forget public perception, would you start over and begin tanking now?

[thelead]

Considering we know what we have and that it isn't good enough to even make the playoffs in this weak conference, would you disassemble most of the team and start to tank?

My vote: Easy yes

[BadHombre]

I think we need to start trending upwards eventually, and showing we can assemble a team of players that can win.

Tanking is going to be too much of a challenge in this current lottery climate. The cost of sacrificing wins won’t be worth it.

But WeHam need to do a much better job proving they can actually find talented players regardless of which direction we go in.

[FFBlitzace]

There's just such a low ceiling on trying to maximize what we already have. It's not like we're anywhere close. 1 player, even an elite player, wouldn't do it. We have to accept the reality that the Hennigan years were wasted years of our lives that we'll never get back. This is what we're working with now, and if it takes a few more years, then so be it, as long as we get it right this time. But trying to maximize into a 48 win team doesn't do anything for me at all. I haven't suffered all this time just to be "kinda good." So I voted yes. I don't know if we're in a position where we could truly tank, since we're not bad enough, but mainly I think we need to just avoid short sighted moves.

[bargnanimvp]

I dunno, i just want a direction. If we go full tank so be it. I just want SOME decision. If they want to try and see Vuc with some actual NBA level players around here then sure do that too for a couple years until he's 31 then blow it up then. Either way DO SOMETHING. Either go for wanting to be a 5th seed first round knock out around vuc or go for the rebuild and keep AG/Isaac/Bamba and move everyone else who would contribute wins. Hell even trade AG in that situation for picks. Just choose to do something.

[Statlanta]

There's nobody in this( and possibly next ) draft worth tanking for.

Even Zion could have the shooting problems that plague Ben Simmons.

The only move to make is to trade 1 of the BIG, for a SF or PG.

[Audi]

Public perception? Nobody truly gives a rip unless you can beat GSW, and this team simply can’t and won’t get out of the east with any high-caliber possible moves. Thus, you blow it up, keep promising youth, and rebuild.

[GameOver25]

I'm truly afraid this franchise unless given a clear cut #1 obvious pick or an elite player just has no idea on how to build a team.

[VFX]

Tanking or not, we need to rebuild. This team needs an identity that makes sense. Also, get rid of the majority of players from the Hennigan era once and for all.

[J the Drafter]

I’d go for a soft tank. Ross and Vuc are free agents who probably have incentive to find greener pastures. I wouldn’t get rid of anyone else, though. By doing, that we’d be throwing away good play and bad play in hopes of getting more talent than what we have now instead of ending up about the same or worse. WeltHam have been angling for capspace from the middle of last year, when they got rid of Mario and EP. The Magic will probably have a decent draft pick this summer, too. I’d prefer the Magic grab a legitimate point guard rotation, a big to pair with Bamba, and keep cap manageable for the strongest fa they can entice over.

[MagicStarwipe]

I believe the current public perception around the league is that we are a bad team that is stuck in limbo with not much current hope for the future. I'm not sure what the danger is of trying to move away from that perception.

[fendilim]

Yes. This team makes no sense. Its doesnt realize that the two championship appearances were a result of tanking and therefore landing a superstar (Shaq and Dwight).

[Max Power]

It’s hard to say what the true solution to the team is. Quit drafting prospects and start grabbing safe bets might a start. Obviously I think moving certain guys are part of it. I personally think moving Aaron Gordon and Evan Fournier is a good start. Hennigans mistakes from years last need to be cleared out. With that said, I don’t think Vucevic is a mistake. He happened to be one of Hennigans “finds” along with Tobias Harris at the time.

I think public perception does matter. Remember not every fan is a junkie and most don’t float around here on realign. Most don’t care about the ifs and how’s as much as we do. They want results and I’m afraid maybe the only way this franchise starts to go after it and grab winners again is if it’s profits start to bottom out. A fan revolt of this team as constructed might be the only way to break this apathetic approach the last two GM’s have had. The only thing I can honestly prop Weltman and Hammond on is I believe we do finally have a coach who can produce results with a respectable roster.

[pepe1991]

People here act like Magic are not tanking for years so team now needs " new direction " and that new direction is tank?

2012-13 20-62 = 2# overall pick
13-14 23-59 = 4# Pick , 10# pick
14-15 25-57 = 5# pick
15-16 35-47 = 11# pick
16-17 29-53 = 6# pick
17-18 25-57 = 6# Pick

This team is yet to won 40% games in 7 years and they did nothing but tanking for almost decade now with no results. And yes, we can cry for years that team didn't tank "good enough" and that is also true but there are teams who won as much games as Magic, had similar draft positions as Magic yet due better drafting/asset menagment pulled themselfs from bottom faster ( Nuggets, Kings, Nets, Jazz...).

Magic main issue for years has been drafting without plan, drafting medicore prospects and having no clue how to put roster together ,with shift in plans, changing goals without main plan, going through season to season without direction.

Also who in a hell you think can change fortune of Magic from this year's draft ? 6'6 center without jumpshot?
Ja Morant? Guy who at average shoots 40% of all shots by his team?
JR ( on purpose ) Berrett, walking shotjacking machine . Guy has games where he takes twice as many FGA compared to Zion, to score 1 point more.
6'8 post up PF Rui Hachimura, you have size of shooting guard my friend.

Oh, and in league where teams shoot almost 40 threes a game, nobody can shoot well for 3.

How valid is tanking strategy ? Well it went well for Philly. It went badly for almost everybody else. Best team in nba in last 10 years has been built with 7th overall draft pick ,11# overall draft pick and 35# overall draft pick.
In mean time Suns, Philly, Minny, Cavs, Peles,Wizards, Clippers , Blazers, Raptors, Bucks all won lottery in last 15 years. Where are their banners?

There is something to be said about "break a house " idea but than you can't act like half of roster is untouchable.

[BadHombre]

People here act like Magic are not tanking for years so team now needs " new direction " and that new direction is tank?

2012-13 20-62 = 2# overall pick
13-14 23-59 = 4# Pick , 10# pick
14-15 25-57 = 5# pick
15-16 35-47 = 11# pick
16-17 29-53 = 6# pick
17-18 25-57 = 6# Pick

This team is yet to won 40% games in 7 years and they did nothing but tanking for almost decade now with no results. And yes, we can cry for years that team didn't tank "good enough" and that is also true but there are teams who won as much games as Magic, had similar draft positions as Magic yet due better drafting/asset menagment pulled themselfs from bottom faster ( Nuggets, Kings, Nets, Jazz...).

Magic main issue for years has been drafting without plan, drafting medicore prospects and having no clue how to put roster together ,with shift in plans, changing goals without main plan, going through season to season without direction.

Also who in a hell you think can change fortune of Magic from this year's draft ? 6'6 center without jumpshot?
Ja Morant? Guy who at average shoots 40% of all shots by his team?
JR ( on purpose ) Berrett, walking shotjacking machine . Guy has games where he takes twice as many FGA compared to Zion, to score 1 point more.
6'8 post up PF Rui Hachimura, you have size of shooting guard my friend.

Oh, and in league where teams shoot almost 40 threes a game, nobody can shoot well for 3.

How valid is tanking strategy ? Well it went well for Philly. It went badly for almost everybody else. Best team in nba in last 10 years has been built with 7th overall draft pick ,11# overall draft pick and 35# overall draft pick.
In mean time Suns, Philly, Minny, Cavs, Peles,Wizards, Clippers , Blazers, Raptors, Bucks all won lottery in last 15 years. Where are their banners?

There is something to be said about "break a house " idea but than you can't act like half of roster is untouchable.

We've butted heads a lot lately, but despite that I think there's plenty we agree on philosophically. Building a team is fluid, there isn't a guaranteed blue print to success. Tanking works when you land a premier pick, and draft a premier talent, but it's no guarantee a team will achieve either of those as history has shown plenty of times.

Where I think people will disagree with you is the degree of tanking effort we put in. Losing only enough games to put us routinely in a 4-6 slot over the last 6 years has kept us out of reach of some of the more franchise changing talent. There's two caveats there though:

1) even if we'd lost enough to have a higher chance of drafting the premier talent, we might have been pushed outside the top prospects by lottery luck.

2) even if we had those picks, we might have selected Wiggins/Parker over Embiid, or Russell/Okafor over Porzingis (Russell isn't looking too bad lately at least), Ingram/Bender/Dunn over Brown/Heild/Murray. Etc etc.

Another point people might disagree with you on is about the quality of our prospects. I'm not down on them as a lot of others seem to be, but I also agree that neither Isaac, Bamba and likely Gordon seem poised to become a franchise leading offensive stud.

And I don't disagree with you on the above, even though I've highlighted points people might not agree with. I see the merit in both sides. Apart from that, I agree with everything else you've said.

For me, the biggest fault in the Magic's rebuild has been their lack of attention on drafting playmakers. They've drafted Oladipo, Payton and Hezonja as our only 'offensive' prospects, as well as Gordon, Isaac and Bamba as our big men projects. As much as I like BIG, the most obvious results in the league over the past 20 years have been the importance and impact of a playmaker. You just can't build around big men the way you once might have been able to. Not as your first building block at least. Because a role playing big can do just fine on a team with a good playmaker, but a role playing playmaker won't make much difference even if you've got a premier big man.

That said, I don't think there's anyone on the team we need to be too attached to. We need to get smarter at bringing in players who can put the ball in the basket. I'm just not sure that's WeHam's forte.

[pepe1991]

People here act like Magic are not tanking for years so team now needs " new direction " and that new direction is tank?

2012-13 20-62 = 2# overall pick
13-14 23-59 = 4# Pick , 10# pick
14-15 25-57 = 5# pick
15-16 35-47 = 11# pick
16-17 29-53 = 6# pick
17-18 25-57 = 6# Pick

This team is yet to won 40% games in 7 years and they did nothing but tanking for almost decade now with no results. And yes, we can cry for years that team didn't tank "good enough" and that is also true but there are teams who won as much games as Magic, had similar draft positions as Magic yet due better drafting/asset menagment pulled themselfs from bottom faster ( Nuggets, Kings, Nets, Jazz...).

Magic main issue for years has been drafting without plan, drafting medicore prospects and having no clue how to put roster together ,with shift in plans, changing goals without main plan, going through season to season without direction.

Also who in a hell you think can change fortune of Magic from this year's draft ? 6'6 center without jumpshot?
Ja Morant? Guy who at average shoots 40% of all shots by his team?
JR ( on purpose ) Berrett, walking shotjacking machine . Guy has games where he takes twice as many FGA compared to Zion, to score 1 point more.
6'8 post up PF Rui Hachimura, you have size of shooting guard my friend.

Oh, and in league where teams shoot almost 40 threes a game, nobody can shoot well for 3.

How valid is tanking strategy ? Well it went well for Philly. It went badly for almost everybody else. Best team in nba in last 10 years has been built with 7th overall draft pick ,11# overall draft pick and 35# overall draft pick.
In mean time Suns, Philly, Minny, Cavs, Peles,Wizards, Clippers , Blazers, Raptors, Bucks all won lottery in last 15 years. Where are their banners?

There is something to be said about "break a house " idea but than you can't act like half of roster is untouchable.

We've butted heads a lot lately, but despite that I think there's plenty we agree on philosophically. Building a team is fluid, there isn't a guaranteed blue print to success. Tanking works when you land a premier pick, and draft a premier talent, but it's no guarantee a team will achieve either of those as history has shown plenty of times.

Where I think people will disagree with you is the degree of tanking effort we put in. Losing only enough games to put us routinely in a 4-6 slot over the last 6 years has kept us out of reach of some of the more franchise changing talent. There's two caveats there though:

1) even if we'd lost enough to have a higher chance of drafting the premier talent, we might have been pushed outside the top prospects by lottery luck.

2) even if we had those picks, we might have selected Wiggins/Parker over Embiid, or Russell/Okafor over Porzingis (Russell isn't looking too bad lately at least), Ingram/Bender/Dunn over Brown/Heild/Murray. Etc etc.

Another point people might disagree with you on is about the quality of our prospects. I'm not down on them as a lot of others seem to be, but I also agree that neither Isaac, Bamba and likely Gordon seem poised to become a franchise leading offensive stud.

And I don't disagree with you on the above, even though I've highlighted points people might not agree with. I see the merit in both sides. Apart from that, I agree with everything else you've said.

For me, the biggest fault in the Magic's rebuild has been their lack of attention on drafting playmakers. They've drafted Oladipo, Payton and Hezonja as our only 'offensive' prospects, as well as Gordon, Isaac and Bamba as our big men projects. As much as I like BIG, the most obvious results in the league over the past 20 years have been the importance and impact of a playmaker. You just can't build around big men the way you once might have been able to. Not as your first building block at least. Because a role playing big can do just fine on a team with a good playmaker, but a role playing playmaker won't make much difference even if you've got a premier big man.

That said, I don't think there's anyone on the team we need to be too attached to. We need to get smarter at bringing in players who can put the ball in the basket. I'm just not sure that's WeHam's forte.

So now i have to remove you from my foe list

Anyway i want to apolgize for some insutls through last few days.

As for rest of a post. You simply can't compete without ballhandling high quality player. And lack of them results in making other players ( by default ,role players) that much worst. And probably hinders their development into something more than just role players as they lack of easy shots/looks they would recive if they play with great playmakers.

Because a role playing big can do just fine on a team with a good playmaker, but a role playing playmaker won't make much difference even if you've got a premier big man.

This is so true ! Even this year alone you see WSC doing good for Kings by being nothing more than rim running C.
Capela, Adams, Turner are really good Cs but look athat much better along side Harden, Paul, Westbrook, George, Dipo...

As for lottery, Lakers have 2 second overall picks in back to back lotteries. Problem,however is that in minds of fans "two second overall draft picks" sound waaaay more valuable than Lonzo Ball and Brandon Ingram.
Same could be said for Suns who drafted 4#, 4# and 1# , Ayton, Bender and Jackson don't sound that "sexy".


Pick 1: 240 selections (16.8% total)

Pick 2: 144 selections (10.1% total)

Pick 3: 134 selections (9.4% total)

Pick 4: 98 selections (6.87% total)

Pick 5: 117 selections (8.2% total)

Pick 6: 72 selections (5% total)

Pick 7: 36 selections (2.5% total)

Pick 8: 60 selections (4.2% total)

Pick9: 69 selections (4.8% total) Nowitzki and Havlicek account for 26 of these

Pick 10: 55 selections (3.85% total)

Pick 11: 33 selections (2.3% total)

Pick 12: 29 selections (2% total)

Pick 13: 32 selections (2.2% total) Kobe and Malone account for 27 of these

That's list from 2017 ( not updated) , odds of drafting allstar. In reality most of lottery picks turn into role players and portion of them are complete busts. Drafting as only way of rebuilding is dangerous, looong road.

[BadHombre]

People here act like Magic are not tanking for years so team now needs " new direction " and that new direction is tank?

2012-13 20-62 = 2# overall pick
13-14 23-59 = 4# Pick , 10# pick
14-15 25-57 = 5# pick
15-16 35-47 = 11# pick
16-17 29-53 = 6# pick
17-18 25-57 = 6# Pick

This team is yet to won 40% games in 7 years and they did nothing but tanking for almost decade now with no results. And yes, we can cry for years that team didn't tank "good enough" and that is also true but there are teams who won as much games as Magic, had similar draft positions as Magic yet due better drafting/asset menagment pulled themselfs from bottom faster ( Nuggets, Kings, Nets, Jazz...).

Magic main issue for years has been drafting without plan, drafting medicore prospects and having no clue how to put roster together ,with shift in plans, changing goals without main plan, going through season to season without direction.

Also who in a hell you think can change fortune of Magic from this year's draft ? 6'6 center without jumpshot?
Ja Morant? Guy who at average shoots 40% of all shots by his team?
JR ( on purpose ) Berrett, walking shotjacking machine . Guy has games where he takes twice as many FGA compared to Zion, to score 1 point more.
6'8 post up PF Rui Hachimura, you have size of shooting guard my friend.

Oh, and in league where teams shoot almost 40 threes a game, nobody can shoot well for 3.

How valid is tanking strategy ? Well it went well for Philly. It went badly for almost everybody else. Best team in nba in last 10 years has been built with 7th overall draft pick ,11# overall draft pick and 35# overall draft pick.
In mean time Suns, Philly, Minny, Cavs, Peles,Wizards, Clippers , Blazers, Raptors, Bucks all won lottery in last 15 years. Where are their banners?

There is something to be said about "break a house " idea but than you can't act like half of roster is untouchable.

We've butted heads a lot lately, but despite that I think there's plenty we agree on philosophically. Building a team is fluid, there isn't a guaranteed blue print to success. Tanking works when you land a premier pick, and draft a premier talent, but it's no guarantee a team will achieve either of those as history has shown plenty of times.

Where I think people will disagree with you is the degree of tanking effort we put in. Losing only enough games to put us routinely in a 4-6 slot over the last 6 years has kept us out of reach of some of the more franchise changing talent. There's two caveats there though:

1) even if we'd lost enough to have a higher chance of drafting the premier talent, we might have been pushed outside the top prospects by lottery luck.

2) even if we had those picks, we might have selected Wiggins/Parker over Embiid, or Russell/Okafor over Porzingis (Russell isn't looking too bad lately at least), Ingram/Bender/Dunn over Brown/Heild/Murray. Etc etc.

Another point people might disagree with you on is about the quality of our prospects. I'm not down on them as a lot of others seem to be, but I also agree that neither Isaac, Bamba and likely Gordon seem poised to become a franchise leading offensive stud.

And I don't disagree with you on the above, even though I've highlighted points people might not agree with. I see the merit in both sides. Apart from that, I agree with everything else you've said.

For me, the biggest fault in the Magic's rebuild has been their lack of attention on drafting playmakers. They've drafted Oladipo, Payton and Hezonja as our only 'offensive' prospects, as well as Gordon, Isaac and Bamba as our big men projects. As much as I like BIG, the most obvious results in the league over the past 20 years have been the importance and impact of a playmaker. You just can't build around big men the way you once might have been able to. Not as your first building block at least. Because a role playing big can do just fine on a team with a good playmaker, but a role playing playmaker won't make much difference even if you've got a premier big man.

That said, I don't think there's anyone on the team we need to be too attached to. We need to get smarter at bringing in players who can put the ball in the basket. I'm just not sure that's WeHam's forte.

So now i have to remove you from my foe list

Anyway i want to apolgize for some insutls through last few days.

As for rest of a post. You simply can't compete without ballhandling high quality player. And lack of them results in making other players ( by default ,role players) that much worst. And probably hinders their development into something more than just role players as they lack of easy shots/looks they would recive if they play with great playmakers.

Because a role playing big can do just fine on a team with a good playmaker, but a role playing playmaker won't make much difference even if you've got a premier big man.

This is so true ! Even this year alone you see WSC doing good for Kings by being nothing more than rim running C.
Capela, Adams, Turner are really good Cs but look athat much better along side Harden, Paul, Westbrook, George, Dipo...

I apologise as well. I came at you hard, unnecessarily so. Peace

I hope the team can turn things around soon so we're all not so frustrated by the results.

[p0peye]

People here act like Magic are not tanking for years so team now needs " new direction " and that new direction is tank?

2012-13 20-62 = 2# overall pick
13-14 23-59 = 4# Pick , 10# pick
14-15 25-57 = 5# pick
15-16 35-47 = 11# pick
16-17 29-53 = 6# pick
17-18 25-57 = 6# Pick

This team is yet to won 40% games in 7 years and they did nothing but tanking for almost decade now with no results. And yes, we can cry for years that team didn't tank "good enough" and that is also true but there are teams who won as much games as Magic, had similar draft positions as Magic yet due better drafting/asset menagment pulled themselfs from bottom faster ( Nuggets, Kings, Nets, Jazz...).

Magic main issue for years has been drafting without plan, drafting medicore prospects and having no clue how to put roster together ,with shift in plans, changing goals without main plan, going through season to season without direction.

Also who in a hell you think can change fortune of Magic from this year's draft ? 6'6 center without jumpshot?
Ja Morant? Guy who at average shoots 40% of all shots by his team?
JR ( on purpose ) Berrett, walking shotjacking machine . Guy has games where he takes twice as many FGA compared to Zion, to score 1 point more.
6'8 post up PF Rui Hachimura, you have size of shooting guard my friend.

Oh, and in league where teams shoot almost 40 threes a game, nobody can shoot well for 3.

How valid is tanking strategy ? Well it went well for Philly. It went badly for almost everybody else. Best team in nba in last 10 years has been built with 7th overall draft pick ,11# overall draft pick and 35# overall draft pick.
In mean time Suns, Philly, Minny, Cavs, Peles,Wizards, Clippers , Blazers, Raptors, Bucks all won lottery in last 15 years. Where are their banners?

There is something to be said about "break a house " idea but than you can't act like half of roster is untouchable.

We've butted heads a lot lately, but despite that I think there's plenty we agree on philosophically. Building a team is fluid, there isn't a guaranteed blue print to success. Tanking works when you land a premier pick, and draft a premier talent, but it's no guarantee a team will achieve either of those as history has shown plenty of times.

Where I think people will disagree with you is the degree of tanking effort we put in. Losing only enough games to put us routinely in a 4-6 slot over the last 6 years has kept us out of reach of some of the more franchise changing talent. There's two caveats there though:

1) even if we'd lost enough to have a higher chance of drafting the premier talent, we might have been pushed outside the top prospects by lottery luck.

2) even if we had those picks, we might have selected Wiggins/Parker over Embiid, or Russell/Okafor over Porzingis (Russell isn't looking too bad lately at least), Ingram/Bender/Dunn over Brown/Heild/Murray. Etc etc.

Another point people might disagree with you on is about the quality of our prospects. I'm not down on them as a lot of others seem to be, but I also agree that neither Isaac, Bamba and likely Gordon seem poised to become a franchise leading offensive stud.

And I don't disagree with you on the above, even though I've highlighted points people might not agree with. I see the merit in both sides. Apart from that, I agree with everything else you've said.

For me, the biggest fault in the Magic's rebuild has been their lack of attention on drafting playmakers. They've drafted Oladipo, Payton and Hezonja as our only 'offensive' prospects, as well as Gordon, Isaac and Bamba as our big men projects. As much as I like BIG, the most obvious results in the league over the past 20 years have been the importance and impact of a playmaker. You just can't build around big men the way you once might have been able to. Not as your first building block at least. Because a role playing big can do just fine on a team with a good playmaker, but a role playing playmaker won't make much difference even if you've got a premier big man.

That said, I don't think there's anyone on the team we need to be too attached to. We need to get smarter at bringing in players who can put the ball in the basket. I'm just not sure that's WeHam's forte.

Only offensive players we picked in last 7 years were Hezonja and Nicholson, IIRC. Oladipo and Payton were drafted high because of their defense and we worked hard to develop Oladipo both as playmaker (playing him at PG behind Jameer) and scorer. We invested a lot in Payton, but he didn't improve much, or at least marginally in areas that were his calling card anyways (at the rim, low turnovers, etc.).

[Nemesis21]

Absolutely. We could be almost out of this mess with a brighter looking future, had we tanked 2-3 seasons out of the last 5 drafts.

[Furinkazan]

Absolutely. We could be almost out of this mess with a brighter looking future, had we tanked 2-3 seasons out of the last 5 drafts.

the only year we tanked was with JV and we got Dipo from that
rest was a muppet show on the crossroads
and hail o mighty basketball gods we are classy organisation so bring us a 1st

[drsd]

Tanking or not, we need to rebuild. This team needs an identity that makes sense. Also, get rid of the majority of players from the Hennigan era once and for all.

And-1

Tanking serves no purpose with the current lottery odds: the worst team is most likely to draft 5th.

But the magic roster is flawed. "Winning" is not the purpose right now. Balancing the roster is. Doing so will lead to losses, and probably will exclude the Magic from the playoffs by ~3 games.

But the Magic must improve the PG core and must improve the bench. These two issues really are not areas of argument.


..