GT #55: Cavs @ Wizards 7 PM (NBCSW/1500 AM)

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I can't decide in which direction I want to overreact today!

:)

Wizards fans dilemma.

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[Ruzious]

Portis is more than capable of putting up 18 and 8 with with a 57%TS in a winning effort.

jabari parker is straight up crap. at least he came to chicago with the worst attitude ive ever seen in an NBA player...The bulls only signed him to help sell tickets. chicago stans are biggest suckers on the planet for iso ball local products. and i have no idea why. Most dont even live in chicago. They're like farm boys from iowa and cleveland that dont get off the couch so watching players that jump high or perform iso ball crossovers is cool or something...but they just dont get the nuance of understanding the complete game of basketball. You guys joke about banning me from the bulls board but that literally banned from not backing down from saying jimmy butler is "no that guy" to build to around because i knew 3 years ago Jimmy butler didn't have the temperament to lead young players not mesh will with vets.

Now Jimmy Butler might now...3 years later...and 3 months from being a UFA...finally see the writing on the wall that its time to get along and go along and not play so selfishly after he wore out is welcome in 3 spots.

But back to jabari...he flat out sucks. he has no interest at all in playing WITH the other 4 guys on the court. Like jimmy butler, they exist to pass him the ball, get out of the way, and be ready to shoot when he finally decides to give up the rock. there is no nuance there about using the entire team to set up the entire team...its just taking turns playing one on one basketball. It's Thibsball: find yourself dumb enough basketball player with a fragile enough super ego to think he "can" and "should" do it all by himself. build them up by surrounding them up lessor role players that stick to mopping floor while that player does all the glory work, and hope that player doesn't lose his ballz before the end of the 2nd round of the playoff where most pretenders do...even prime iverson. tmac. carter lost their ballz early in the playoffs. certainly Rose and Jimmy butler did too. jabari parker aint even gonna get you IN THE PLAYOFFS.

Now portis as i said on the day of the trade is different. there is hope there that he can be a garnett type player on offense...perhaps even better than garnett of offense. he will move the ball. set good picks. rebound. take open shots and from the 3 and make them at a decent clip. solid post game. He might even put it all together and be a really good offensive contributor. On defense...he still doesn't fully understand what the opponent is doing yet so he anticipates poorly. <--which is 95% of defense (reading the offense). But he does have the size and athleticism to at least be a decent, or a net "neutral" defender.

And with Parker, it's so weird that he came to Chicago with a bad attitude - since he signe a 1 year contract - presumably a make good contract so that he could impress people enough to earn a big long-term contract. Even if he does well these last 30 or so games, I wouldn't trust that he'll keep it up in the future. Again, I hope I'm wrong.

[payitforward]

I don't think he'll ever get defense - after watching him in Milwaukee. His defensive reactions are bewilderingly slow. It's like his brain shuts off when he's on defense.

Well there's no question about it! Watch him throughout his career. A guy doesn't go from being picked #2 in the draft to teetering on the edge of never putting on an NBA uniform again in only 4 years unless he really works at it.
.

2 ACL tears make a difference there. Plus mindset attitude and immaturity. But. Modern medicine works miracles? Being on your last chance may wake you up? People mature?

We need a coach with defensive bonafides and fundamentals and a good scheme though otherwise there's no chance to develop good habits even if a player wanted to make a change.

Absolutely. I'm pulling for him.

OTOH, what have "mindset attitude and maturity" done for me, I ask you? Have I matured? No way. Modern medicine has been helpful, though, I can't argue with that. Along with easy access to mind-altering drugs.

[doclinkin]

Well there's no question about it! Watch him throughout his career. A guy doesn't go from being picked #2 in the draft to teetering on the edge of never putting on an NBA uniform again in only 4 years unless he really works at it.
.

2 ACL tears make a difference there. Plus mindset attitude and immaturity. But. Modern medicine works miracles? Being on your last chance may wake you up? People mature?

We need a coach with defensive bonafides and fundamentals and a good scheme though otherwise there's no chance to develop good habits even if a player wanted to make a change.

Absolutely. I'm pulling for him.

OTOH, what have "mindset attitude and maturity" done for me, I ask you? Have I matured? No way. Modern medicine has been helpful, though, I can't argue with that. Along with easy access to mind-altering drugs.

Right. But on the other hand have you ever seen a $20m contract renewal about to evaporate in front of you? HIs agent is likely so far up his colon about it that he can hear him in his cochlear organ.

[payitforward]

Portis... On defense...he still doesn't fully understand what the opponent is doing yet so he anticipates poorly. <--which is 95% of defense (reading the offense). But he does have the size and athleticism to at least be a decent, or a net "neutral" defender.

And with Parker, it's so weird that he came to Chicago with a bad attitude - since he signe a 1 year contract - presumably a make good contract so that he could impress people enough to earn a big long-term contract. Even if he does well these last 30 or so games, I wouldn't trust that he'll keep it up in the future. Again, I hope I'm wrong.

I'm glad to read that someone thinks his athleticism is good enough (if not actually "good"). Be great if he stuck, & we got at least something out of the trade.

Big worry is that Ernie gives him the $16m he wants. I'd be wary of doing anything but giving him his qualifying offer.

I can't recall -- if we do that, do we still have the chance to match another team's offer? Or arrange a sign-and-trade?

[stilldropin20]

Portis is more than capable of putting up 18 and 8 with with a 57%TS in a winning effort.

jabari parker is straight up crap. at least he came to chicago with the worst attitude ive ever seen in an NBA player...The bulls only signed him to help sell tickets. chicago stans are biggest suckers on the planet for iso ball local products. and i have no idea why. Most dont even live in chicago. They're like farm boys from iowa and cleveland that dont get off the couch so watching players that jump high or perform iso ball crossovers is cool or something...but they just dont get the nuance of understanding the complete game of basketball. You guys joke about banning me from the bulls board but that literally banned from not backing down from saying jimmy butler is "no that guy" to build to around because i knew 3 years ago Jimmy butler didn't have the temperament to lead young players not mesh will with vets.

Now Jimmy Butler might now...3 years later...and 3 months from being a UFA...finally see the writing on the wall that its time to get along and go along and not play so selfishly after he wore out is welcome in 3 spots.

But back to jabari...he flat out sucks. he has no interest at all in playing WITH the other 4 guys on the court. Like jimmy butler, they exist to pass him the ball, get out of the way, and be ready to shoot when he finally decides to give up the rock. there is no nuance there about using the entire team to set up the entire team...its just taking turns playing one on one basketball. It's Thibsball: find yourself dumb enough basketball player with a fragile enough super ego to think he "can" and "should" do it all by himself. build them up by surrounding them up lessor role players that stick to mopping floor while that player does all the glory work, and hope that player doesn't lose his ballz before the end of the 2nd round of the playoff where most pretenders do...even prime iverson. tmac. carter lost their ballz early in the playoffs. certainly Rose and Jimmy butler did too. jabari parker aint even gonna get you IN THE PLAYOFFS.

Now portis as i said on the day of the trade is different. there is hope there that he can be a garnett type player on offense...perhaps even better than garnett of offense. he will move the ball. set good picks. rebound. take open shots and from the 3 and make them at a decent clip. solid post game. He might even put it all together and be a really good offensive contributor. On defense...he still doesn't fully understand what the opponent is doing yet so he anticipates poorly. <--which is 95% of defense (reading the offense). But he does have the size and athleticism to at least be a decent, or a net "neutral" defender.

And with Parker, it's so weird that he came to Chicago with a bad attitude - since he signe a 1 year contract - presumably a make good contract so that he could impress people enough to earn a big long-term contract. Even if he does well these last 30 or so games, I wouldn't trust that he'll keep it up in the future. Again, I hope I'm wrong.

hope your wrong too for his own career and for the wizard...but its odd i just dont see it.

and let me put this out there. rose and Parker are from the same hood. A tought hood. One of the toughest hoods we got in all of chicago. more peoper die in this square 2 miles of eglewood per capita than any other place in the world save the parts where there is active war. But these 2 kids just dont care if anyone scores on them. I'm from a the next neighborhood south...and just a generation older...On the play ground, back in the day if someone scored on me too much I'd start by raking their hands on the gather with the intention of cracking some bones. on the next play made myself wide and drove my knees into their knees as they tried to get around me. on the trip after that if they didn't get the message i'd straight up put them on their ass awkwardly. and be ready for fisticuffs if thats what they wanted...for me it was just a way to get a mental edge on the opponent. of course i spent my time in the weight room prior to all that to back it...and the "big kids before me" showed me the same years prior. You take those same techniques to high school and college...espeically high where you can get away with anything so long as you give the refs the ol' "yes sir"..."good call" i got him"...do that enough (and score enough on the other end) and you train the high school refs...eventually you end up calling the game...a dirty rake late in the game...you can fake as being clean...with a quick an honest look and a quick "off his leg!!"

So i dont know why jabari and Rose didn't learn this crap...maybe (ive heard) they were coddled by guys with guns. on those courts just a few blocks north of the courts i grew up on. On my courts and back in my day...there was no one there to save you from a butt whoopin. we played hard to get the most out of each other. to make each other better. To make ourselves better. I'm 47 today and when i play...if the oppoenent thinks he's "good" and my back is up for it I still play to win and I'll give any 18-25 year olds as good of a game as he was looking for. I mean its funny they dont even know what to do with me...I dont miss from anywhere and i'm slow as crap moving around but still quick as hell in my micro movements and i know everything they are trying to do and they dont know a thing i'm trying to do. Its kinda fun trolling those kids with the "old man" talk too. They just dont have any balance. No strength. No core. weak mechanics. and I'm talking kids that played in high school and a couple in college. they are not good enough to draw a double. so they never end up making plays for others.

i think that is what has happened to jabari and rose. weak mind. weak game. defense is unimportant to them. they simply doesn't care. they dont think they exist to defend. they are saving their legs and lungs for offense...and even on offense they get gassed and go sit in the corner to take a play off here and there. which brings us to motor. the most under rated skill of all time. Motor. these guys unwittingly have cornered themselves into a style of play based on a weak motor. which leads to a weak heart.

[stilldropin20]

2 ACL tears make a difference there. Plus mindset attitude and immaturity. But. Modern medicine works miracles? Being on your last chance may wake you up? People mature?

We need a coach with defensive bonafides and fundamentals and a good scheme though otherwise there's no chance to develop good habits even if a player wanted to make a change.

Absolutely. I'm pulling for him.

OTOH, what have "mindset attitude and maturity" done for me, I ask you? Have I matured? No way. Modern medicine has been helpful, though, I can't argue with that. Along with easy access to mind-altering drugs.

Right. But on the other hand have you ever seen a $20m contract renewal about to evaporate in front of you? HIs agent is likely so far up his colon about it that he can hear him in his cochlear organ.

meh. i think his agent's entire forearm could be elbo deep 3 hours into a daily fisting session and jabari will wont even bat an eye. Not because he likes it. But because he is THAT apathetic. Keep in mind the kid if from the ghetto and now worth at least 40 million and bough his home at a time home values were suppressed and the market was souring. So as long as he didn't buy too many cars he should still have most his money. He simply doesn't care. Just like Rose didn't care for about 6 years.

jabari is your ultimate tank commander though. and he chase away and/or ruin anybody that is any good on your team. Just a bad apple. I'd waive him. The only reason you keep him is if you can convince him to play nice and get along with other for half a season next year...and do a pump and dump. he might get you 18 and 8 on 38% 3 pt shooting which is enough to (possibly) get a late first so long as he makes 12 million or less. Mirotic (who plays the game right) netted a first last year and 2 seconds this year.

[Illmatic12]

I don't doubt the offensive skills of either Portis or Parker. My concern is defense. Portis isn't going to go 12/14 every night, and when he isn't hitting, does his terrible D make him unplayable?

For the next 30 games, I'm going to be watching Portis and Parker solely on defense. I want to know if their bad defense throughout their career is just due to scheme and effort, or are they intrinsically horrible on D.

I had no idea Parker could pass like this.

There’s no physical reason why Parker can’t defend. He’s incredibly light on his feet for a player of that size/weight

It’s all mental for him, he has to want it, to change his reputation of being just a scorer.

I don't think he'll ever get defense - after watching him in Milwaukee. His defensive reactions are bewilderingly slow. It's like his brain shuts off when he's on defense.

Yeah I watched him in Milwaukee, one of the worse defenders I’ve ever seen. But then he was receiving praise for the way he defended in their playoff series vs Boston. Very peculiar player

And I gotta say, Parker made some passes last night that I did not think he had in his game.

There was a play where he caught the ball in the mid post, turned and whipped a one-motion *lefthanded* pass to the opposite corner for an Ariza three. He is a very interesting player at 23yo, still time for him to figure out what he can be.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Well there's no question about it! Watch him throughout his career. A guy doesn't go from being picked #2 in the draft to teetering on the edge of never putting on an NBA uniform again in only 4 years unless he really works at it.
.

2 ACL tears make a difference there. Plus mindset attitude and immaturity. But. Modern medicine works miracles? Being on your last chance may wake you up? People mature?

We need a coach with defensive bonafides and fundamentals and a good scheme though otherwise there's no chance to develop good habits even if a player wanted to make a change.

Absolutely. I'm pulling for him.

OTOH, what have "mindset attitude and maturity" done for me, I ask you? Have I matured? No way. Modern medicine has been helpful, though, I can't argue with that. Along with easy access to mind-altering drugs.

"Drugs...gimme drugs."

(Mid 70s. "Welcome Back Kotter", Vinny Barbarino, played by John Travolta)

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

2 ACL tears make a difference there. Plus mindset attitude and immaturity. But. Modern medicine works miracles? Being on your last chance may wake you up? People mature?

We need a coach with defensive bonafides and fundamentals and a good scheme though otherwise there's no chance to develop good habits even if a player wanted to make a change.

Absolutely. I'm pulling for him.

OTOH, what have "mindset attitude and maturity" done for me, I ask you? Have I matured? No way. Modern medicine has been helpful, though, I can't argue with that. Along with easy access to mind-altering drugs.

Right. But on the other hand have you ever seen a $20m contract renewal about to evaporate in front of you? HIs agent is likely so far up his colon about it that he can hear him in his cochlear organ.

Is this about Ted and Ernie?

Oh, it's the agent and player dynamic...my bad.

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Who is going to start the Otto Porter revenge game thread?

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

There’s no physical reason why Parker can’t defend. He’s incredibly light on his feet for a player of that size/weight

It’s all mental for him, he has to want it, to change his reputation of being just a scorer.

I don't think he'll ever get defense - after watching him in Milwaukee. His defensive reactions are bewilderingly slow. It's like his brain shuts off when he's on defense.

Yeah I watched him in Milwaukee, one of the worse defenders I’ve ever seen. But then he was receiving praise for the way he defended in their playoff series vs Boston. Very peculiar player

And I gotta say, Parker made some passes last night that I did not think he had in his game.

There was a play where he caught the ball in the mid post, turned and whipped a one-motion *lefthanded* pass to the opposite corner for an Ariza three. He is a very interesting player at 23yo, still time for him to figure out what he can be.

The kid Turner, that came out the same year as Wall and Favors. Plays in Portland now. He was a big-time NCAA player at Indiana

Evan Turner https://www.nba.com/players/evan/turner/202323

Parker is as good or better passer, a better rebounder, and a MUCH BETTER SCORER than Evan Turner; who, is still in the league at 30 years old despite being a really bad shooter.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Portis

Buy while you can because his is the stock that will go sky high very very soon.

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Agreed nearly this entire board of old schoolers wanted Portis just a few years ago. He’s been stuck on arguably the worst team in the league.

This was not a doomsday return for chronic hip-injury Porter.

The Wizards could have re-signed Ariza for around $10 million a year and it would have been a bargain.

Then we could have just drafted Portis and addressed a real area of need.

Instead Grunfeld moved up in the lottery burning yet another draft pick in the process to pick Oubre, then ends up trading Oubre to bring back Ariza, then ends up trading Porter, a legit asset whether you like him or not, to add Portis for the final 28 games of the season.

So Grunfeld, and of course there's a good chance Ernie will overpay to bring back Portis, he's already thrown out his canned response about how they liked him the draft..

Noted.

Grunfeld survived his own mistakes yet again.

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[penbeast0]

Agreed nearly this entire board of old schoolers wanted Portis just a few years ago. He’s been stuck on arguably the worst team in the league.

This was not a doomsday return for chronic hip-injury Porter.

The Wizards could have re-signed Ariza for around $10 million a year and it would have been a bargain.

Then we could have just drafted Portis and addressed a real area of need.

Instead Grunfeld moved up in the lottery burning yet another draft pick in the process to pick Oubre, then ends up trading Oubre to bring back Ariza, then ends up trading Porter, a legit asset whether you like him or not, to add Portis for the final 28 games of the season.

So Grunfeld, and of course there's a good chance Ernie will overpay to bring back Portis, he's already thrown out his canned response about how they liked him the draft..

I'm Grunfeld's biggest critic. I've been calling for him to be fired since 2011. But, sorry Induveca & Queridiculo, this business about the 2015 draft is BS.

For one thing it's hindsight.

For another, not every move that doesn't work out is a bad move. LIfe is like that.

For a third, if you're going to look back & ask what the best move would have been, then you're still wrong. Picking Bobby Portis would certainly not have been the best move. Not nearly the best move. Take a minute & ask yourself what the alternative might be. Without looking up that draft, please.

I'll put it in a spoiler to help you learn how little you know.

Spoiler:

The best move would have been to trade down instead of up -- use our #19 & those 2 later R2 picks (somehow -- maybe throw in that 2016 lottery pick we used later to acquire Kieff?) to get the #27, 29 & 32 picks, then take Larry Nance, Kevon Looney & Montrezl Harrell.

Every one of those players has been a whole hell of a lot better than Bobby Portis (whom you are regretting BASED ON ONE GAME).

Did you come up with any of them? Well... did you? No, you didn't.

How many of you "experts" even knew that the player(s) I just named was(were) in the same draft with Portis? How many of you mentioned that(those) guy(s) as a target at the time?

Here's how many -- ONE. CCJ.

& me. That's it.

As I say, I'm Grunfeld's biggest critic. I'm not defending him. I doubt there have been 3 worse GMs in the last 20 years.

Edit: that was kinda harsh. I'm sorry, guys -- has nothing to do w/ you. All on me being in a particularly bad mood this a.m.

If I remember it, Looney was the one the board wanted if Portis was gone at that point in terms of consensus. People liked Nance, just not that early. Don't remember hearing anyone rave about Harrell.

[montestewart]

The Wizards could have re-signed Ariza for around $10 million a year and it would have been a bargain.

Then we could have just drafted Portis and addressed a real area of need.

Instead Grunfeld moved up in the lottery burning yet another draft pick in the process to pick Oubre, then ends up trading Oubre to bring back Ariza, then ends up trading Porter, a legit asset whether you like him or not, to add Portis for the final 28 games of the season.

So Grunfeld, and of course there's a good chance Ernie will overpay to bring back Portis, he's already thrown out his canned response about how they liked him the draft..

I'm Grunfeld's biggest critic. I've been calling for him to be fired since 2011. But, sorry Induveca & Queridiculo, this business about the 2015 draft is BS.

For one thing it's hindsight.

For another, not every move that doesn't work out is a bad move. LIfe is like that.

For a third, if you're going to look back & ask what the best move would have been, then you're still wrong. Picking Bobby Portis would certainly not have been the best move. Not nearly the best move. Take a minute & ask yourself what the alternative might be. Without looking up that draft, please.

I'll put it in a spoiler to help you learn how little you know.

Spoiler:

The best move would have been to trade down instead of up -- use our #19 & those 2 later R2 picks (somehow -- maybe throw in that 2016 lottery pick we used later to acquire Kieff?) to get the #27, 29 & 32 picks, then take Larry Nance, Kevon Looney & Montrezl Harrell.

Every one of those players has been a whole hell of a lot better than Bobby Portis (whom you are regretting BASED ON ONE GAME).

Did you come up with any of them? Well... did you? No, you didn't.

How many of you "experts" even knew that the player(s) I just named was(were) in the same draft with Portis? How many of you mentioned that(those) guy(s) as a target at the time?

Here's how many -- ONE. CCJ.

& me. That's it.

As I say, I'm Grunfeld's biggest critic. I'm not defending him. I doubt there have been 3 worse GMs in the last 20 years.

Edit: that was kinda harsh. I'm sorry, guys -- has nothing to do w/ you. All on me being in a particularly bad mood this a.m.

If I remember it, Looney was the one the board wanted if Portis was gone at that point in terms of consensus. People liked Nance, just not that early. Don't remember hearing anyone rave about Harrell.

There were a few people who liked Harrell, but I don't think anyone advocated using the original 1st round pick to get him. A number of posters liked Harrell, Looney, and Nance, primarily in trade down scenarios. I don't recall anyone laying out that exact trade down scenario for all three BECAUSE NO ONE DID!