Political Roundtable Part XXV

[dckingsfan]

BTW, M4A could easily be paid for by matching the SS payroll tax. The Ds are proposing a 14.8 payroll tax over time for SS - just match that for M4A.

Yes, a 28.6 percent payroll tax for all seems steep - but that would actually keep both SS and M4A solvent. Also, regardless of your income, you keep paying it. So, if you earn $10M, you would pay $2.86M.

The only downside is that voters would actually see how much it is costing them.

[I_Like_Dirt]

This is absolute ONE of the healthcare drivers that needs to be addressed before M4A can be successful. And although it shows that Ds support monopolies in general, it seems like they are "kind of" coming around. The reasons that they endorse monopolies is for control. They are "kind of" figuring out that it doesn't always work for them.

I will say, hospitals are a part of the economy that has a rather massive entry cost. The reality here is that the higher the entry cost, the more likely you are to see a rise in monopolies. It also becomes much more costly to the general public to deal with bankruptcies because you either see a decline in what limited competition already exists or you see corporate welfare to support one of the competitors at which point it really isn't competition anyway. It doesn't always manifest itself in quite the same way. Banking is a bit of a different issue, for example, but a lot of the standard traits are there across many sectors of the economy.

And this is the issue that society needs to deal with through government at some point, because if they don't, it will be dealt with regardless, just in a way that benefits a very select portion of the population. With increased efficiencies and technologies, we are witnessing a dramatic shift where smaller competition is simply not competitive in the least. There are massive advantages to having huge institutions that control all aspects of production and those advantages are a big part of why we're seeing the decline in competition as we are. And that's where the issue hits hardest. The economy is predicated largely on supply and demand. The catch is that there is a built in floor for demand in many parts of the economy and supply winds up being controlled if efficiency can be sufficiently be improved by scale.

The real key is whether or not parts of the economy should be effectively nationalized or not. So many other countries have done it. It's a built in cost control that comes with all the inherent negatives of government bureaucracy and it's still more efficient for health care than what is happening in America, for example. It doesn't mean everything needs to be nationalized, either, but there have to be cost constraints there and right now there just aren't because there isn't enough competition to go around, nor is it particularly efficient to build up so many hospitals that there actually would be sufficient competition to drive down costs.

[dckingsfan]

This is absolute ONE of the healthcare drivers that needs to be addressed before M4A can be successful. And although it shows that Ds support monopolies in general, it seems like they are "kind of" coming around. The reasons that they endorse monopolies is for control. They are "kind of" figuring out that it doesn't always work for them.

I will say, hospitals are a part of the economy that has a rather massive entry cost. The reality here is that the higher the entry cost, the more likely you are to see a rise in monopolies. It also becomes much more costly to the general public to deal with bankruptcies because you either see a decline in what limited competition already exists or you see corporate welfare to support one of the competitors at which point it really isn't competition anyway. It doesn't always manifest itself in quite the same way. Banking is a bit of a different issue, for example, but a lot of the standard traits are there across many sectors of the economy.

And this is the issue that society needs to deal with through government at some point, because if they don't, it will be dealt with regardless, just in a way that benefits a very select portion of the population. With increased efficiencies and technologies, we are witnessing a dramatic shift where smaller competition is simply not competitive in the least. There are massive advantages to having huge institutions that control all aspects of production and those advantages are a big part of why we're seeing the decline in competition as we are. And that's where the issue hits hardest. The economy is predicated largely on supply and demand. The catch is that there is a built in floor for demand in many parts of the economy and supply winds up being controlled if efficiency can be sufficiently be improved by scale.

The real key is whether or not parts of the economy should be effectively nationalized or not. So many other countries have done it. It's a built in cost control that comes with all the inherent negatives of government bureaucracy and it's still more efficient for health care than what is happening in America, for example. It doesn't mean everything needs to be nationalized, either, but there have to be cost constraints there and right now there just aren't because there isn't enough competition to go around, nor is it particularly efficient to build up so many hospitals that there actually would be sufficient competition to drive down costs.

So, what would be your proposal(s)?

[Pointgod]

Thoughts from some of our more left leaning posters?

The problem with the Universal Basic Income is that it doesn’t recognize the dignity that some people have with working. I think on its face it’s an interesting concept, however I’m starting to think something like a Federal Jobs Guarantee would provide a better solution.

i can understand where UBI proponents are coming from, but i don't think as a society we're there yet, but we're relatively close.

without going into a thousand-word dive into it, the tl;dr is that we're hurtling towards convergence with the Star Trek universe in terms of efficiency, automation, and AI, and the closer we get, the more it makes sense a UBI society makes.

Thank you both for the input. I appreciate reasoned, well thought out responses to these types of issues.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Finland gave people free money. It didn’t help them get jobs — but does that matter?

Receiving a basic income had other great effects on the unemployed.



Preliminary results are in for Finland’s landmark experiment with basic income — the idea that the government should give citizens a regular infusion of free cash with no strings attached. The outcome is not what Finland hoped it would be. But it’s arguably a success anyway.

The Finnish trial, the results of which were released Friday, wasn’t an experiment in universal basic income (UBI), which includes all citizens whether they’ve got jobs or not. Rather, it was a targeted attempt to see what would happen if the government chose 2,000 unemployed citizens at random and gave them a check of 560 euros ($635) every month for two years. Participants were assured they’d keep receiving the money if they got a job. In fact, the experiment’s stated goal was about “promoting employment” — the government wanted to see if having a basic income leads people to accept more work, even if it’s low-paying or temporary.

By that metric, the experiment was a failure: Receiving free money didn’t impact the likelihood of people entering the workforce one way or another.

But here’s what the basic income did do: It made recipients feel happier and less stressed. “The basic income recipients of the test group reported better well-being in every way than the comparison group,” according to researcher Olli Kangas.

So, what’s the purpose of basic income?

The idea of universal basic income — that the state should dispense a guaranteed, regular stipend to every single citizen — has been around at least since the 16th century. Its classic aims are to reduce poverty and inequality. Some countries, like Canada, have been experimenting with basic income for decades and others, like Italy, just put a version of it into practice.

I bet it did make the recipients happier -- receiving free money, no strings attached.

Well as a concept UBI makes sense. It provides people a certain minimum level of living that frees people up to explore other avenues of productivity and life instead of working a dead end job just to survive. However I just can’t see how it can be implemented to incentivize people to work. Maybe there is a way.

And to be honest we haven’t acknowledged the reality that as automation increases some jobs will cease to exist so UBI might be a inevitable.

[dckingsfan]

And to be honest we haven’t acknowledged the reality that as automation increases some jobs will cease to exist so UBI might be a inevitable.

This. Probably not in our lifetime but certainly coming.

Automation in agriculture is pretty amazing. Robotics in manufacturing is seriously reducing the number of workers required. Same with automation in fast food. And delivery is also getting more and more automated. What about Taxis? Lots of operations could be automated.

There are a lot of healthcare jobs that probably can't be automated for a long time. House building is still in the stone ages and might never come out . Guess that entertainment and politics also stay on the labor side.

But the things that can be automated will certainly allow for more free time for some people - I wonder what the "fairness" part of that will look like.

[stilldropin20]

of so this is strictly medical sales. not employee salaries. take a look again at this graph another poster posted on the previous page. take a good look...and again this is just "sales" for care at (1)hospitals, (2)clinics and (3)medicine

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^^ The total sales in 2018 are over $3 trillion.

in the flat 10% tax rate i propose...10% of that is $300 billion...just in federal sale tax i propose.

In medical/dental employee Salaries account for 60% of total sales. or 1.2 trillion. taxed at another 10% to the employer and employee. or $240 million combined.

That's $540 million in taxes just from the health care field. keep in mind the US only takes in about $2.9 Trillion in total federal revenue in 2016 and $3.2 Trillion in trumps first year. For comparison, Obama was taking in a miserable $2.1-2.3Trillion from 2010-2014. Sad. Worst president ever. Bush was taking in 2.8Trillion in 2006-2008. Obama had high tax rates and low total federal income. why??? all the damn write off and carveout for his cronies on wall street!!

10% flat tax rate on all exchange of goods and services IS THE WAY TO GO...with a 10% match from employer on employee salaries!!

the total federal tax revenue would reach 5 trillion!! annually!!!

harsh 50% tariffs on china and we're looking at an additional 1.5 trillion!!

6.5 trillion annually!! now who wants to pay down the debt?? plenty left over for you free cheese eatin', free money wantin, no jobby job havin' muphuckas too!! This is how you get there!! This is your path!!

10% flat tax on all exchange of goods and services.

wants some icing on that cake??? do ya??? 50% inheritance (and distribution) tax on all wealth over $20 million be it personal, corporate, trust, foundation, non-profit. <--that'll give ya $50 trillion over the next 15 years...now is that something that gets ya all hot and bothered?? ya might be able to get some M4A wit ya free cheeze!!!

[stilldropin20]

And to be honest we haven’t acknowledged the reality that as automation increases some jobs will cease to exist so UBI might be a inevitable.

This. Probably not in our lifetime but certainly coming.

Automation in agriculture is pretty amazing. Robotics in manufacturing is seriously reducing the number of workers required. Same with automation in fast food. And delivery is also getting more and more automated. What about Taxis? Lots of operations could be automated.

There are a lot of healthcare jobs that probably can't be automated for a long time. House building is still in the stone ages and might never come out . Guess that entertainment and politics also stay on the labor side.

But the things that can be automated will certainly allow for more free time for some people - I wonder what the "fairness" part of that will look like.

tax the machines as employees!!

or better...make each machine assigned to a single owner of that machine. ...so if a farmer (or anyone) uses a machine, they can only use one machine per person...the work accomplished by that machine pays the owner...who then pays taxes on his income.

so...machines might do the work...but only one machine can be owned by one single person...who maintains the machine.

---everyone becomes and independent contractor...and therefore a small business owner.

A simple 2 page law written by congress ...makes it so. and that is the end of the "automation" is a problem theory. its a problem that I cant want until we have. we all want a problem like this.

Instead...congress is going to allow monoplies to control all the machines. and farmers (and everyone else) to buy thousands of machines. <--and thats the real problem. The problem is NOT the machines nor automation. In facts its awesome!! But we just need laws where each machine is owned by one single owner (or couple).

lets take it a step further...I have been buying up dental practices by the dozens over the past 2 years. up to 27. why? because i think automation will be here in medicine and dentistry in 15-25 years...and who ever owns the most dental practices is going to already have most the "patients." as automation comes into play...and Believe it or not we are really close right now...in 3 years or less a machine can take all the xrays if a patient steps into it and bites on a mouthpiece...a laser is already cutting crowns and fillings cahirside in an hour. another ct scan is taking impression with minimal guidance from an assistant. so im guessing radar and ct scans will be doing cleaning and taking xray and even doing the "drilling" within 15 years. and will be perfected by year 20-25 from now....so the trick is to embrace it and be first. be the first guy to have a robot clean your teeth. take xrays. and even place fillings.

ive even designed a prototype and i think it can work. by year 25 from now...it will be better than a human being at all of our current functions. teeth will no longer be "pulled" but rather dissolved by a laser. etc.

kiosks will definitely check patients in and out and perform billing just like they do atthe brand new mcdonalds by me in chicago's west loop.

and in 25 years these machines that can do all of this "in one" will likely cost between $75,000 and $300,000. they will be faster, better, show up every day. be on time. ready to work at 5am and stay until midnight...etc.

so if my typical practice has 9-12 employees...why would you guys let me get away with replacing at least 7 of them with machines???? Why??? Why would you let me get away with owning the machines??? and taking your jobs away??? Instead if i were you...i would get mad!!!! because people like me who plan ahead and are always 1 step ahead are going to get even richer letting machines do the work!!! You think that's fair?????!!! Do you!!!!?????

Then do something about it!!!! The answer is simple...each machine must be owned and operated by a person licensed in that field to operate and maintain said machine!! its that simple!!!! why would you sit back and allow jewel to replace your job with auto kiosks to check out???? Worse....why are you letting Bezos get rid of all the jewels and whole foods and instead creating massive wherehouses where you shop online and have the food delievered by machines and rones??????? Why are you allowing Bezos to own the machines!!!???????? he already owns the entire netowork and will likely be buying up the farms next...why are you sitting back and allowing him to do this???? This is an easy law to write that DOES NOT allow the owners of a business to own machines that do the work. Instead make your politicians write a law where each work station is owned by a seperate individual who is contracted by the owner. But the way it is...you are allowing the rich to get significantly richer and take away nearly all of your jobs at the same time!!

so change the law...as i describe......There...i just solved another end of the world crisis for all of you and its only monday!!!! Stilldrop saves the world again!!!

but you wimps are not going to do a damn thing about it. Y'all are all hat no cattle. All talk no action. The rich are going to take 80% of your jobs away with machines over the next 50 years and there's not a damn thing you are going to do about it. You're not even going to buy rental income property along the way like ive been advising each of you to do over the past 2 years.

So here's a glimpes into your children's futures. they will own no business, no home, and have no job...because you allowed it to happen...you allowed a handful of monopoloies to come in and take 99% of the market in all markets and replace nearly every employee with machines. and you guys will all be "stuck" on some kind of free cheese and free income distribution...right? thats the plan right? And do you really think that your new job will be working on the machine??? fat chance!! instead the elites will lease machines for 10-15 years and then swap them out for brand new machines and selling the crappy old machines to 2nd and 3rd world countries for at least 125 years...at which point the machines will be fixing the machines. at which point...the entire world will have machines....just like they have smart phones now. just like our old smart phones are now flooding the entire 2nd and 3rd world cell phone markets. rinse and repeat with the machines that will be taking your jobs pronto! Hope you stockpiled the vasoline!!

and none of you fools have bought an rental income property yet? The entire world is going automated which mean 80% of you will be living on section 8 within 50 years or less and you are not buying up rental income for your kids?

Are you really that dumb??? You're going to let the rich monopolies automate you out of your jobs? and tax you out of your single family homes, and you aint even buying up rental property for this bleak future where 80% of you end up on section 8??? damn...you guys aint ready for nuttin' honey!! how are you going to get laid???!!! how are you kids going to have anything???? You're afraid to tax the elites. the top 2% already own 90% of everything and you've sat back and let them have it. I mean...you've already laid your ass down on the mattress and presented yourself for a royal azz raping and now your going to let them have your miserable jobs too???

sad. sad. sad.

here's what i recommened you do. buy rental income. with every single penny you got. stop taking vacations. stop buying cars and other disposable. live in your rental income and buy more rental income near your existing rental income. Sit back. and be a boss when the automation era come...you're decendents will cash section 8 checks for generations.

or be a lazy broke ass. do nothing. sit around. teach your kids nothing about market share. and let the rich get richer. teach them to enjoy their meager $25K fixed income. maybe some fentanyl from across the open boarder will ease the pain?

[stilldropin20]

the man is flat our entering full blown elvis territory. beyond elvis! at this point trump is more famous and more loved and more appreciated than elvis, john lennon, and muhamed ali combined!!

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meanwhile...beto put up fencing around his liitle gathering of 900.

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[stilldropin20]

hey quick question...if 80% of you will be replaced by AI machines within 50 years...why exactly do we need to educate you again? oh...so you can enjoy shakespeare as you sit at home? cool beans! Oh...wait you're not a reader...just a gamer... so you want a free education so can sit at home eith your economic security...and make your own home super computer for gaming? also cool!

Good for you! go learn something...but if you're future self is not going to work anyway...why again should we be paying to educate you???

I mean why should we even house you? feed you? do we really need futureyou?? really? for what? just to consume things and leave a carbon footprint?? that's your "value" huh? weird...you're only future value is consuming things so the rich can keep getting richer as they produce and delivers good to you for profit. weird future you guys are drumming up.

[stilldropin20]

wow...real winner you got here dems. Between her and the nitwit Ocasio-cortex the entire party is going down in flames! all because bernie got some college kids excited in 2015 with his free colleg and free stuff in general campaign of lies!!

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i ask again...why on earth would we pay now to educate now you for a job you will lose to AI anytway?? Even a dumb hillbilly from the south side of chicago with crack head parents that grew up in the sticks knows this makes no sense. There is no reason at all to send 80% of you to school. You are NOT going to be working anyway!!! AI will replace you all
over the nest 20-50 years!!

wy should we eduate you if you will just be sitting at home collecting free money for doing nothing!! you may as well not even be able to read...i mean read for what? so idiots on CNN can tell you how "good" the free stuff is and you'll be just literate enough to follow along their narrative and believe them?? I mean isn't that pretty much who you are right now anyways?? tell the truth, libs...have you really thought any of this stuff through?? Any of it?

this is going to be some crazy future!!!

I'll call it T(-) 20 years before it gets really scary for most of you...in 20 years or less at least 35% of you wont have a job to do because you will have been replaced by AI and machines and kiosks....oh wait...i forgot...Ocasio has your new job!! your going to become a carpenter and build the Green platform!! the entire country is going to borrow billions for a bunch of "green" stuff that will be obsolete before the entire green grid and platform is even complete.

but somehow...someway...china is going to keep manufacturing things. Weird isn't it. You consume stuff. and china makes it. they still have a middle class. and you wont. how is your future son or grandson ever going to get laid besides the occaisional pity phuck?

i guess the intagram models, bloggers, vloggers, and virtual sex cam models and couples are ahead of the curve. those will be the only jobs left for americans within 20-50 years. sad. sad. sad.

Or...or you can tariff the crap out of chine and bring all the manufacuturing back?? your call. and I'm certain you'll blow it. In fact...i'm betting on it. with everything i got!!

[stilldropin20]

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[TGW]

AOC is the most popular politician by far on twitter. Her engagement rate destroys pretty much every politician on social media...damn.

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[I_Like_Dirt]

So, what would be your proposal(s)?

I think there needs to be a blending of the two and a bit of a case by case analysis of how things are going. In some cases, I think deregulation, or a bit more streamlined regulation, makes some sense to increase activity. In others, like internet/communications, I think there is a strong argument for publicly funded competition - not public domain exclusively but force providers to at least be able to compete with a government owned company or something like that. To be honest, maybe the only moment I was somewhat optimistic about Trump was when he was talking about competing with China on 5G networks and having a national network. Of course, the ISPs quickly lobbied him out of it through the Party apparatus but I think that was a good idea, if done properly.

For health care, I do think it needs to be blended a bit. I feel hospitals in particular do need to be state-owned. I think there is room for a mix of certain private practices in certain domains and such but there needs to be certain cost controls and there needs to be a bit of a baseline for services, too. I recognize that this would result in an epic fight with health care workers but it needs to be done in order to try to rein costs in as much as possible. I also think the kinds of mixes we see might need to be different in different areas of the country. It's something I expect would be ridiculously complicated to unpack properly and would take quite some time but that's the direction I'd like to see movement towards.

[dckingsfan]

So, what would be your proposal(s)?

I think there needs to be a blending of the two and a bit of a case by case analysis of how things are going. In some cases, I think deregulation, or a bit more streamlined regulation, makes some sense to increase activity. In others, like internet/communications, I think there is a strong argument for publicly funded competition - not public domain exclusively but force providers to at least be able to compete with a government owned company or something like that. To be honest, maybe the only moment I was somewhat optimistic about Trump was when he was talking about competing with China on 5G networks and having a national network. Of course, the ISPs quickly lobbied him out of it through the Party apparatus but I think that was a good idea, if done properly.

For health care, I do think it needs to be blended a bit. I feel hospitals in particular do need to be state-owned. I think there is room for a mix of certain private practices in certain domains and such but there needs to be certain cost controls and there needs to be a bit of a baseline for services, too. I recognize that this would result in an epic fight with health care workers but it needs to be done in order to try to rein costs in as much as possible. I also think the kinds of mixes we see might need to be different in different areas of the country. It's something I expect would be ridiculously complicated to unpack properly and would take quite some time but that's the direction I'd like to see movement towards.

Agreed, IF we are going toward the M4A, I would think that the government would need to roll out their own hospital system to (at a minimum) compete with the private hospital system(s).

And the fight with two of the biggest unions (AMA, ANA & NNU) will indeed be epic. Especially because they are large donors to both parties and the Ds don't want to look like they are sticking it to their constituents.

[FAH1223]

AOC is the most popular politician by far on twitter. Her engagement rate destroys pretty much every politician on social media...damn.

Read on Twitter

I remember when I followed the Brand New Congress account after the 2016 election and by Spring 2017 there was all these people they were recruiting to run.

AOC being one of them, I saw her social media feed IG, I have a couple of mutual friends so followed back. I met her last year and its still surreal how she's blown up. She was bartending a year ago.

Makes me think I should run against Steny Hoyer

[TGW]

AOC is the most popular politician by far on twitter. Her engagement rate destroys pretty much every politician on social media...damn.

Read on Twitter

I remember when I followed the Brand New Congress account after the 2016 election and by Spring 2017 there was all these people they were recruiting to run.

AOC being one of them, I saw her social media feed IG, I have a couple of mutual friends so followed back. I met her last year and its still surreal how she's blown up. She was bartending a year ago.

Makes me think I should run against Steny Hoyer

Please do! I cannot stand Steny Hoyer.

[TGW]

You know you've reached a new low when Tucker Carlson exposes you.

MSNBC is pathetic trash.

Watch on YouTube

[I_Like_Dirt]

This. Probably not in our lifetime but certainly coming.

Automation in agriculture is pretty amazing. Robotics in manufacturing is seriously reducing the number of workers required. Same with automation in fast food. And delivery is also getting more and more automated. What about Taxis? Lots of operations could be automated.

There are a lot of healthcare jobs that probably can't be automated for a long time. House building is still in the stone ages and might never come out . Guess that entertainment and politics also stay on the labor side.

But the things that can be automated will certainly allow for more free time for some people - I wonder what the "fairness" part of that will look like.

It goes beyond that. I mean, beyond taxis you have trucking. Mining, too. And it goes farther than more standard machine-using jobs. Health care (AI for diagnosing, machines to mix/measure meds, etc.), finance (think of index/automated funds as the canary in the coal mine), law. Law might be the most dangerous one because of how it could divest a massive amount of power into a very small amount of people. Think of how tax software basically eliminated the need for so many people to file income tax. It comes with a few issues. For one, they lobby extensively not to simplify the tax code because a complex tax code supports their business model, and for two, you can see how a series of complex laws can be simplified reasonably effectively by levels of code, even without AI. Now apply a greater level of detail and access to the legal profession and basically whatever clerks do is meaningless and you need way fewer lawyers and judges. This could go any number of ways for better or worse. I'm not sure if most or any of this will happen in my lifetime or not but it's coming.

[gtn130]

You know you've reached a new low when Tucker Carlson exposes you.

MSNBC is pathetic trash.

Watch on YouTube

Yeah man Tucker Carlson is the worst, it's a new low for the pathetic and partisan MSNBC. Imagine being a regular contributor to his show like Glenn Greenwald

[TGW]

Rachel Maddow is officially the Alex Jones of the s**tlib community:

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