Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac

[MagicMatic]

Hypothetically speaking here...

Do we value Isaac or Gordon more moving forward?

Gun to the head, which one is being traded and which one is being kept?

Isaac. Not close.

[MagicFan101]

Jonathan Isaac is playing better. I still don’t believe “BIG” will work in the long run. Why? Not enough floor spacing between the three of them.

From a recent article on B/R about Orlando’s starting lineup.

While they've recorded a respectable net rating of plus-3.3 in 517 total minutes this season, the Magic have been far better when they play small. This means having to bench either Gordon or Isaac, two traditional power forwards who both need to see the court, just not at the same time.

When Orlando plays Terrence Ross over Gordon, its net rating spikes to plus-6.2. When Ross plays over Isaac, it improves to plus-8.5. For now, Isaac would be best suited as the team's sixth man.

I think people are assuming too much from BIG just because we give them a nickname.

Why do we need floor spacing for them at all? The three of them are all better defenders than offensive weapons yet each can hit 3’s on occasion with growth showing.

What if we change our strategy here? If Fultz becomes the Fultz he was expected to be and we grab one of the strong wing prospects in this class, we could very likely be looking at a completely different offensive focus.

Let Fultz be the dominant ball handler. Let our new wing be the sharp shooter. Let BIG be defensive forces who gobble up put-backs and lobs on offense while hitting open shots created by double teams on our new guard duo.

Isaac and Bamba don’t strike me as guys who need to be the #1 option. I think they will settle in nicely to those roles. Gordon is the only one I worry about there.

... obviously this hinges on how Fultz develops and our ability to find a quality wing in the draft. But that is the gamble we have taken.

The strategy seems pretty clear to me. Why do you continue to focus on the alternative?

What are you talking about?

How is bringing up the future lineup of Bamba, Isaac, and Gordon considered “focusing on the alternative”? That’s not an alternative, that’s reality.

It’s merely pointing out that the lineup with those three isn’t going to be effective as I’ve pointed out. Fultz is a complete mystery and doesn’t solve the issue of 3/5 guys on the floor ability to create offense. You know, what the Magic have struggled to do for the majority of the season...

You are asking why we need floor spacing and players with the ability to create offense? You must not watch basketball these days.

No. I’m asking why it all has to flow through them.

At the moment, we have to question that as our guard rotation is so damn aweful. But that isn’t our future.

Can a system with with AG, Isaac and Bamba (in order) as the #3, 4 and 5 options?

AG has improved his shot and handling year and year. Why can’t he continue that? We just need to temper expectations. Similarly for Isaac who has also improved yet is clearly more of a defensive guy.

Our goal / hope is clearly to build an offense around Fultz. Adding a sharp shooting wing who can also handle the ball would complete that.

BIG is servicible in a role player capacity on offense while being world beaters on the other end.

I love it ... we just need Fultz to be Fultz.

[MagicMatic]

I think people are assuming too much from BIG just because we give them a nickname.

Why do we need floor spacing for them at all? The three of them are all better defenders than offensive weapons yet each can hit 3’s on occasion with growth showing.

What if we change our strategy here? If Fultz becomes the Fultz he was expected to be and we grab one of the strong wing prospects in this class, we could very likely be looking at a completely different offensive focus.

Let Fultz be the dominant ball handler. Let our new wing be the sharp shooter. Let BIG be defensive forces who gobble up put-backs and lobs on offense while hitting open shots created by double teams on our new guard duo.

Isaac and Bamba don’t strike me as guys who need to be the #1 option. I think they will settle in nicely to those roles. Gordon is the only one I worry about there.

... obviously this hinges on how Fultz develops and our ability to find a quality wing in the draft. But that is the gamble we have taken.

The strategy seems pretty clear to me. Why do you continue to focus on the alternative?

What are you talking about?

How is bringing up the future lineup of Bamba, Isaac, and Gordon considered “focusing on the alternative”? That’s not an alternative, that’s reality.

It’s merely pointing out that the lineup with those three isn’t going to be effective as I’ve pointed out. Fultz is a complete mystery and doesn’t solve the issue of 3/5 guys on the floor ability to create offense. You know, what the Magic have struggled to do for the majority of the season...

You are asking why we need floor spacing and players with the ability to create offense? You must not watch basketball these days.

No. I’m asking why it all has to flow through them.

At the moment, we have to question that as our guard rotation is so damn aweful. But that isn’t our future.

Can a system with with AG, Isaac and Bamba (in order) as the #3, 4 and 5 options?

AG has improved his shot and handling year and year. Why can’t he continue that? We just need to temper expectations. Similarly for Isaac who has also improved yet is clearly more of a defensive guy.

Our goal / hope is clearly to build an offense around Fultz. Adding a sharp shooting wing who can also handle the ball would complete that.

BIG is servicible in a role player capacity on offense while being world beaters on the other end.

I love it ... we just need Fultz to be Fultz.

It’s possible.

However, the lacking component is someone like Harden in that scenario. Having a player that can handle and create 65-80% of the offense would be crucial if you aren’t running any of it through 3/5 guys that need to be on the court. Either that, or a crazy tandem like Curry/Klay in the back court. Both of those options are extremely unlikely to fall in Orlando’s lap.

We really can’t expect Fultz to be the savior or even capable of “shouldering” that load.

[MagicFan101]

What are you talking about?

How is bringing up the future lineup of Bamba, Isaac, and Gordon considered “focusing on the alternative”? That’s not an alternative, that’s reality.

It’s merely pointing out that the lineup with those three isn’t going to be effective as I’ve pointed out. Fultz is a complete mystery and doesn’t solve the issue of 3/5 guys on the floor ability to create offense. You know, what the Magic have struggled to do for the majority of the season...

You are asking why we need floor spacing and players with the ability to create offense? You must not watch basketball these days.

No. I’m asking why it all has to flow through them.

At the moment, we have to question that as our guard rotation is so damn aweful. But that isn’t our future.

Can a system with with AG, Isaac and Bamba (in order) as the #3, 4 and 5 options?

AG has improved his shot and handling year and year. Why can’t he continue that? We just need to temper expectations. Similarly for Isaac who has also improved yet is clearly more of a defensive guy.

Our goal / hope is clearly to build an offense around Fultz. Adding a sharp shooting wing who can also handle the ball would complete that.

BIG is servicible in a role player capacity on offense while being world beaters on the other end.

I love it ... we just need Fultz to be Fultz.

It’s possible.

However, the lacking component is someone like Harden in that scenario. Having a player that can handle and create 65-80% of the offense would be crucial if you aren’t running any of it through 3/5 guys that need to be on the court. Either that, or a crazy tandem like Curry/Klay in the back court. Both of those options are extremely unlikely to fall in Orlando’s lap.

We really can’t expect Fultz to be the savior or even capable of “shouldering” that load.

I’m not saying I “expect” Fultz to be that guy. I’m saying clearly that is the direction management is gambling on. Like it or not ... believe in it or not ... it is what it is. The plan is not, was not and never will be to run the offense through BIG. So why keep analyzing it?

If the Fultz experiment doesn’t work and / or an alternative can’t be found then WeHam will be out soon enough. But this is their strategy on offense; not BIG.

[NavalAviator94]

Hypothetically speaking here...

Do we value Isaac or Gordon more moving forward?

Gun to the head, which one is being traded and which one is being kept?

Man that's tough but under that scenario I would have to pick Isaac and I'm hating that decision as I think about it. I'm picking him because of his size and ability to defend at an elite level in what I believe is the tail end of his rookie year right now.

I like Aaaron Gordon and want to see another year under coach Cliff. I look at AG as a light version of Lebron. He's learning to become a PG and over time he'll become more efficient. Lebron didn't shoot above .50% fg until his 7th season. He also didn't reach league average 3pt shooting until his 9th season, his second in Miami. He had better players around him and that was the year they also won the Championship.

AG is growing and it's clear that Coach Cliff is coaching him hard. He hasn't had that his entire career. He's now averaging 4.6 assists in the last 5 games and on the year, he is shooting slightly more efficient than he was in in previous years but clearly has room to grow. He's also our best defender and a guy who can defend all 5 positions.

Maybe I'm making the case for AG but I honestly like what the two of them could be.

[BadMofoPimp]

Hypothetically speaking here...

Do we value Isaac or Gordon more moving forward?

Gun to the head, which one is being traded and which one is being kept?

Man that's tough but under that scenario I would have to pick Isaac and I'm hating that decision as I think about it. I'm picking him because of his size and ability to defend at an elite level in what I believe is the tail end of his rookie year right now.

I like Aaaron Gordon and want to see another year under coach Cliff. I look at AG as a light version of Lebron. He's learning to become a PG and over time he'll become more efficient. Lebron didn't shoot above .50% fg until his 7th season. He also didn't reach league average 3pt shooting until his 9th season, his second in Miami. He had better players around him and that was the year they also won the Championship.

AG is growing and it's clear that Coach Cliff is coaching him hard. He hasn't had that his entire career. He's now averaging 4.6 assists in the last 5 games and on the year, he is shooting slightly more efficiently than he was in in previous years but clearly has room to grow. He's also our best defender and a guy who can defend all 5 positions.

Maybe I'm making the case for AG but I honestly like what the two of them could be.

What I like about AG, is that he is aggressive and assertive. If something needs to get done on or off the court, he takes that leadership to heart. Slim just seems so passive and maybe he will grow into himiself over the next few years. I wouldn't trade one over the other at the moment, but who knows down the road.

[Knightro]

Isaac. Not close.

I agree.

To the point where I would definitely be in favor of Weltman and Hammond at least exploring Aaron Gordon trade possibilities this summer. If the Magic could flip Gordon for a wing who can shoot and create offense, it would balance the roster out much better.

Could roll into 19-20 with something like this...

Point: Augustin, Fultz, Briscoe
Wing: Fournier, Ross, Frazier
Wing: Trade Acquisition for AG, Iwundu
Big: Isaac, FA signing using MLE
Big: Vucevic, Bamba, Birch

Throw in the Magic's 2019 1st round pick which would probably be someone like Keldon Johnson, Romeo Langford, Nassir Little or Rui Hachimura and baby, you've got a stew going.

[NBlue]

I know that people (including myself) have had doubts about Isaac/AG playing together longterm, but our most played lineup (DJ/Evan/Isaac/AG/Vuc) has a 108 offensive and 104 defensive rating for the year. Over the last 5 games, that lineup has a +8 net rating.

Clifford is really finding a way to make it work and it will only get better as Isaac continues to improve. Bambas future with us is by far the biggest question mark at this point to me. Mostly because I can see a world where they commit to Vuc longterm and Bamba is moved. He is the most expendable out of all 3 imo.

Exactly. To me the deal the FO could look to make this offseason would be something to rid ourselves of Evan and/or Mozgov's contract by pairing that with Bamba and/or our 2019 first round pick. The idea being this clears space to resign Vooch, Ross and bring in a max Point Guard (and yes I mean Deangelo Russell). I'm sure that isn't going to happen but I think something along those lines is likely how we move forward...

[Instincts]

It's era of ballhandlers and floor spacers. Main issue with BIG is that non of them is good at playing with ball or deadly shooter.

That's basic root and main issue.
As for development, players don't really learn new skills that easy, most of them develop into better versions of themselfs. People tend to get better at shooting over time , but it's rare to see somebody who was as bad as Gordon to turn into career 40% three point shooter, and last two years ,despite major improvments, he is yet to crack league average 36% let alone anything above it.

isaac made lot of threes last 2 games but let's not act like anybody was near him when he took them, with improvments that will change.

League is still about Lebron's Curry, Giannis ,Durant , Harden type of players who take ball in their hands and deliver. That's why guy like Vučević can't be best player on great team and that's why team like 76ers and Nuggets still have ceiling in playoffs.

Fair points and while I dont completely disagree there are a few reasons I can not reach a conclusion. Firstly, ballhandlers and floor spacers (small ball) is based on talent of certain players on certain teams i.e. Harden, Curry etc. Of course lesser teams try to emulate to a lesser degree of success. It is not so much that I am advocating a counter trend roster construction plan, though I do believe that that thought may have some validity as a strategy, but more so that trends are developed based on the talented players at the time and that we should mold our strategy around our young talent, not force to fit a small ball trend based on other teams rosters and talent.

Secondly, though I know you will fairly combat with shooting stats, but in my opinion people have continually under estimated AG's development curve. I know you have seen the both continual but sudden improvement in both his driving ability and play making ability. See examples below just in the last few games, he now is flashing the left hand finish on his drive that he has been missing, and the fancy dribbling is now with purpose of pausing the defender and resulting in lanes to the basket or dump offs to the open big. And as you say above, paraphrase, "it is rare to see somebody improve at such and such rate", the fact is AG continues to improve across the board with no signs of a ceiling yet, other than possibly 3pt shooting percentage. How does his continued across the board improvement factor into your equation which above only touches on shooting percentage. AG is proving he is a winning five tool basketball player, a stand up teammate and person, and I for one am willing to see it through. I think Isaac is on a similar curve. I concede the shooting must continue to improve for both, but the shooting is only one aspect and an over simplification of the equation of whether the pairing can work long term. The factor of the defensive impact of the pairing also should not be under estimated.

Watch on YouTube

See 6:50 mark - improved left hand drive

Watch on YouTube

:10 mark - play making
:50 drive
1:08 drive

[NBlue]

No. I’m asking why it all has to flow through them.

At the moment, we have to question that as our guard rotation is so damn aweful. But that isn’t our future.

Can a system with with AG, Isaac and Bamba (in order) as the #3, 4 and 5 options?

AG has improved his shot and handling year and year. Why can’t he continue that? We just need to temper expectations. Similarly for Isaac who has also improved yet is clearly more of a defensive guy.

Our goal / hope is clearly to build an offense around Fultz. Adding a sharp shooting wing who can also handle the ball would complete that.

BIG is servicible in a role player capacity on offense while being world beaters on the other end.

I love it ... we just need Fultz to be Fultz.

It’s possible.

However, the lacking component is someone like Harden in that scenario. Having a player that can handle and create 65-80% of the offense would be crucial if you aren’t running any of it through 3/5 guys that need to be on the court. Either that, or a crazy tandem like Curry/Klay in the back court. Both of those options are extremely unlikely to fall in Orlando’s lap.

We really can’t expect Fultz to be the savior or even capable of “shouldering” that load.

I’m not saying I “expect” Fultz to be that guy. I’m saying clearly that is the direction management is gambling on. Like it or not ... believe in it or not ... it is what it is. The plan is not, was not and never will be to run the offense through BIG. So why keep analyzing it?

If the Fultz experiment doesn’t work and / or an alternative can’t be found then WeHam will be out soon enough. But this is their strategy on offense; not BIG.

I'm sure -- like all of us -- the Magic FO hopes Fultz becomes a serviceable NBA pg and maybe even more. Suggesting that he is a foundational part of our squad moving forward seems a bit silly. Getting J Simms' minutes off the team made us immediately better even assuming Fultz does not play a minute this year. Its a very low risk proposition and I'm hopeful that he will eventually pay off on that potential. That said, I think right now Fultz is an asset to develop in a way similar to Bamba (though, Bamba, obviously is way more important to the organization). The only player we have that has shown true unicorn potential right now is JI.

[NBlue]

It's era of ballhandlers and floor spacers. Main issue with BIG is that non of them is good at playing with ball or deadly shooter.

That's basic root and main issue.
As for development, players don't really learn new skills that easy, most of them develop into better versions of themselfs. People tend to get better at shooting over time , but it's rare to see somebody who was as bad as Gordon to turn into career 40% three point shooter, and last two years ,despite major improvments, he is yet to crack league average 36% let alone anything above it.

isaac made lot of threes last 2 games but let's not act like anybody was near him when he took them, with improvments that will change.

League is still about Lebron's Curry, Giannis ,Durant , Harden type of players who take ball in their hands and deliver. That's why guy like Vučević can't be best player on great team and that's why team like 76ers and Nuggets still have ceiling in playoffs.

Fair points and while I dont completely disagree there are a few reasons I can not reach a conclusion. Firstly, ballhandlers and floor spacers (small ball) is based on talent of certain players on certain teams i.e. Harden, Curry etc. Of course lesser teams try to emulate to a lesser degree of success. It is not so much that I am advocating a counter trend roster construction plan, though I do believe that that thought may have some validity as a strategy, but more so that trends are developed based on the talented players at the time and that we should mold our strategy around our young talent, not force to fit a small ball trend based on other teams rosters and talent.

Secondly, though I know you will fairly combat with shooting stats, but in my opinion people have continually under estimated AG's development curve. I know you have seen the both continual but sudden improvement in both his driving ability and play making ability. See examples below just in the last few games, he now is flashing the left hand finish on his drive that he has been missing, and the fancy dribbling is now with purpose of pausing the defender and resulting in lanes to the basket or dump offs to the open big. And as you say above, paraphrase, "it is rare to see somebody improve at such and such rate", the fact is AG continues to improve across the board with no signs of a ceiling yet, other than possibly 3pt shooting percentage. How does his continued across the board improvement factor into your equation which above only touches on shooting percentage. AG is proving he is a winning five tool basketball player, a stand up teammate and person, and I for one am willing to see it through. I think Isaac is on a similar curve. I concede the shooting must continue to improve for both, but the shooting is only one aspect and an over simplification of the equation of whether the pairing can work long term. The factor of the defensive impact of the pairing also should not be under estimated.

Watch on YouTube

See 6:50 mark - improved left hand drive

Watch on YouTube

:10 mark - play making
:50 drive
1:08 drive

Absolutely nailed it -- spot on post on AG. Well done and I couldn't agree more.

[NavalAviator94]

It's era of ballhandlers and floor spacers. Main issue with BIG is that non of them is good at playing with ball or deadly shooter.

That's basic root and main issue.
As for development, players don't really learn new skills that easy, most of them develop into better versions of themselfs. People tend to get better at shooting over time , but it's rare to see somebody who was as bad as Gordon to turn into career 40% three point shooter, and last two years ,despite major improvments, he is yet to crack league average 36% let alone anything above it.

isaac made lot of threes last 2 games but let's not act like anybody was near him when he took them, with improvments that will change.

League is still about Lebron's Curry, Giannis ,Durant , Harden type of players who take ball in their hands and deliver. That's why guy like Vučević can't be best player on great team and that's why team like 76ers and Nuggets still have ceiling in playoffs.

Fair points and while I dont completely disagree there are a few reasons I can not reach a conclusion. Firstly, ballhandlers and floor spacers (small ball) is based on talent of certain players on certain teams i.e. Harden, Curry etc. Of course lesser teams try to emulate to a lesser degree of success. It is not so much that I am advocating a counter trend roster construction plan, though I do believe that that thought may have some validity as a strategy, but more so that trends are developed based on the talented players at the time and that we should mold our strategy around our young talent, not force to fit a small ball trend based on other teams rosters and talent.

Secondly, though I know you will fairly combat with shooting stats, but in my opinion people have continually under estimated AG's development curve. I know you have seen the both continual but sudden improvement in both his driving ability and play making ability. See examples below just in the last few games, he now is flashing the left hand finish on his drive that he has been missing, and the fancy dribbling is now with purpose of pausing the defender and resulting in lanes to the basket or dump offs to the open big. And as you say above, paraphrase, "it is rare to see somebody improve at such and such rate", the fact is AG continues to improve across the board with no signs of a ceiling yet, other than possibly 3pt shooting percentage. How does his continued across the board improvement factor into your equation which above only touches on shooting percentage. AG is proving he is a winning five tool basketball player, a stand up teammate and person, and I for one am willing to see it through. I think Isaac is on a similar curve. I concede the shooting must continue to improve for both, but the shooting is only one aspect and an over simplification of the equation of whether the pairing can work long term. The factor of the defensive impact of the pairing also should not be under estimated.

Watch on YouTube

See 6:50 mark - improved left hand drive

Watch on YouTube

:10 mark - play making
:50 drive
1:08 drive

Well said and nice post. Could not agree more.

[MagicMatic]

Isaac. Not close.

I agree.

To the point where I would definitely be in favor of Weltman and Hammond at least exploring Aaron Gordon trade possibilities this summer. If the Magic could flip Gordon for a wing who can shoot and create offense, it would balance the roster out much better.

Could roll into 19-20 with something like this...

Point: Augustin, Fultz, Briscoe
Wing: Fournier, Ross, Frazier
Wing: Trade Acquisition for AG, Iwundu
Big: Isaac, FA signing using MLE
Big: Vucevic, Bamba, Birch

Throw in the Magic's 2019 1st round pick which would probably be someone like Keldon Johnson, Romeo Langford, Nassir Little or Rui Hachimura and baby, you've got a stew going.

Ideally yes. You can shuffle the deck down the road as long as the offense exists between 1-3.

[Skin]

Groooooooot!

Always maintained faith. Not sold that Clifford can get the most out of him though.

Stop trying to make the Groot nickname happen.

(Insert Mean Girls image)

It's never going to happen.

It can happen if we all UNITE!!!!

GROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nemesis21]

Hypothetically speaking here...

Do we value Isaac or Gordon more moving forward?

Gun to the head, which one is being traded and which one is being kept?

Isaac. Not close.

Isaac stays. I'm more open to moving Gordon now, than I have in the past.

[yoyojw17]

It's era of ballhandlers and floor spacers. Main issue with BIG is that non of them is good at playing with ball or deadly shooter.

That's basic root and main issue.
As for development, players don't really learn new skills that easy, most of them develop into better versions of themselfs. People tend to get better at shooting over time , but it's rare to see somebody who was as bad as Gordon to turn into career 40% three point shooter, and last two years ,despite major improvments, he is yet to crack league average 36% let alone anything above it.

isaac made lot of threes last 2 games but let's not act like anybody was near him when he took them, with improvments that will change.

League is still about Lebron's Curry, Giannis ,Durant , Harden type of players who take ball in their hands and deliver. That's why guy like Vučević can't be best player on great team and that's why team like 76ers and Nuggets still have ceiling in playoffs.

Fair points and while I dont completely disagree there are a few reasons I can not reach a conclusion. Firstly, ballhandlers and floor spacers (small ball) is based on talent of certain players on certain teams i.e. Harden, Curry etc. Of course lesser teams try to emulate to a lesser degree of success. It is not so much that I am advocating a counter trend roster construction plan, though I do believe that that thought may have some validity as a strategy, but more so that trends are developed based on the talented players at the time and that we should mold our strategy around our young talent, not force to fit a small ball trend based on other teams rosters and talent.

Secondly, though I know you will fairly combat with shooting stats, but in my opinion people have continually under estimated AG's development curve. I know you have seen the both continual but sudden improvement in both his driving ability and play making ability. See examples below just in the last few games, he now is flashing the left hand finish on his drive that he has been missing, and the fancy dribbling is now with purpose of pausing the defender and resulting in lanes to the basket or dump offs to the open big. And as you say above, paraphrase, "it is rare to see somebody improve at such and such rate", the fact is AG continues to improve across the board with no signs of a ceiling yet, other than possibly 3pt shooting percentage. How does his continued across the board improvement factor into your equation which above only touches on shooting percentage. AG is proving he is a winning five tool basketball player, a stand up teammate and person, and I for one am willing to see it through. I think Isaac is on a similar curve. I concede the shooting must continue to improve for both, but the shooting is only one aspect and an over simplification of the equation of whether the pairing can work long term. The factor of the defensive impact of the pairing also should not be under estimated.

Watch on YouTube

See 6:50 mark - improved left hand drive

Watch on YouTube

:10 mark - play making
:50 drive
1:08 drive

Agreed. I was thinking to myself.... Shawn Marion is his ceiling... but alas I am seeing a lot of things that he is developing with his ballhandling and his playmaking. He's not fully reliable.... YET.... but he is looking more and more comfortable as every game goes by. that 23 yo jumping bean ain't done!

[IllMagic04]

I don't remember anyone questioning how good he could be defensively

[p0peye]

So, five games is all it takes to serve crows these days?

Nothing against Isaac, but there will be bunch of feathers around here if we keep this as standard.

[SOUL]

So, five games is all it takes to serve crows these days?

Nothing against Isaac, but there will be bunch of feathers around here if we keep this as standard.

On the other hand, 40 or so games was all it took to call him a bust or want him traded.

[p0peye]

So, five games is all it takes to serve crows these days?

Nothing against Isaac, but there will be bunch of feathers around here if we keep this as standard.

On the other hand, 40 or so games was all it took to call him a bust or want him traded.

Both premature, but this is exaggeration. What's next, celebrating a nice quarter? Or booting someone for missed dunk?