Eating Crow: VOL. Jonathan Isaac

[SOUL]

People keep moving the goalposts with Gordon.

Also "People frown upon Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle’s potential".

Wiggins has shown to only be an inefficient chucker on a max contract, has effort problems.

Parker has not shown any desire to play any defense.

Exum has not gained any sort of traction with his play, timid.

Randle is like a bull in a china shop on offense, but he's gotten way better there. Still iffy on defense too.

AG is the only legit two way player on this list and is now starting to show that he can make plays decently with the ball as well. And he's on a decent contract. That isn't even being a homer either, because I would trade AG if it meant a roster that made more sense and we were getting back a great guard.. but he''s not frowned upon as much as those guys because he works his tail off on defense, and supplies more than adequate offense more often than not.

I've got to disagree on the Wiggins and Randle criticisms. I still have high hopes for both players futures, which will be heavily dependent on the coaching situations they end up in.

I would trade Randle for Vuc right now. In fact, I think we could swap them today and we might actually improve since Randle is a much more reliable offensive option than Vuc. Some team will miss out on big name FAs this summer and sign Randle as a cheaper back up - and they're going to be incredibly shocked at what he brings to them.

Exum... he hasn't shown much. I want him to be great, but Utah are pretty fantastic at developing players, so I would imagine they've identified his ceiling somewhat.

But, 'potential' still describes all of them. They all have latent and unfulfilled abilities that someday might rise to the surface.

I'm not saying their doomed to be bad players, my opinion isn't rigidly firm until the end of time, I realize how fluid and fickle the NBA could be with player improvement and it can change one year to the next, but the criticism is warranted in Wiggins case for sure. The eye test and numbers show just how ineffective he is out there a lot of the time, especially for what he's being paid. A lot of weird number stuff could be done to make most players look good, but Wiggins is irredeemable even there. He COULD be good if he had better coaching and took more initiative in his game, but that remains to be seen still. At best, I still see him as a DeRozan level player, and that's at best, and a lot of people don't even like DeRozan that much. He can still carve out a nice role in the NBA, but I would not want to rely on him.

Randle is an enigma for me because he can put up big stats, but I notice fans still criticism him quite a bit when he's playing (Lakers, Pelicans fans), so it may be some of that Vuc of 2 years ago (not current Vuc) type stats that people were wary of. He does have really underrated passing and is hard to stop in the paint, though.

[tiderulz]

People keep moving the goalposts with Gordon.

Also "People frown upon Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle’s potential".

Wiggins has shown to only be an inefficient chucker on a max contract, has effort problems.

Parker has not shown any desire to play any defense.

Exum has not gained any sort of traction with his play, timid.

Randle is like a bull in a china shop on offense, but he's gotten way better there. Still iffy on defense too.

AG is the only legit two way player on this list and is now starting to show that he can make plays decently with the ball as well. And he's on a decent contract. That isn't even being a homer either, because I would trade AG if it meant a roster that made more sense and we were getting back a great guard.. but he''s not frowned upon as much as those guys because he works his tail off on defense, and supplies more than adequate offense more often than not.

I was never a huge fan of AG's, his development seemed very slow. I have been very happy with the progress he has made the past 2 years. I dont think he will ever be the star people were touting of him from the beginning, but a solid player that might make an All-star game is nothing to hate. and he is young and still improving, so he could very well progress beyond that.

[yoyojw17]

People keep moving the goalposts with Gordon.

Also "People frown upon Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle’s potential".

Wiggins has shown to only be an inefficient chucker on a max contract, has effort problems.

Parker has not shown any desire to play any defense.

Exum has not gained any sort of traction with his play, timid.

Randle is like a bull in a china shop on offense, but he's gotten way better there. Still iffy on defense too.

AG is the only legit two way player on this list and is now starting to show that he can make plays decently with the ball as well. And he's on a decent contract. That isn't even being a homer either, because I would trade AG if it meant a roster that made more sense and we were getting back a great guard.. but he''s not frowned upon as much as those guys because he works his tail off on defense, and supplies more than adequate offense more often than not.

I've got to disagree on the Wiggins and Randle criticisms. I still have high hopes for both players futures, which will be heavily dependent on the coaching situations they end up in.

I would trade Randle for Vuc right now. In fact, I think we could swap them today and we might actually improve since Randle is a much more reliable offensive option than Vuc. Some team will miss out on big name FAs this summer and sign Randle as a cheaper back up - and they're going to be incredibly shocked at what he brings to them.

Exum... he hasn't shown much. I want him to be great, but Utah are pretty fantastic at developing players, so I would imagine they've identified his ceiling somewhat.

But, 'potential' still describes all of them. They all have latent and unfulfilled abilities that someday might rise to the surface.

Wiggins i believe is what he is.... and doesn't seem to have the drive to get muuuuuch better. Randle is still a dang bull in a china shop and can pretty much get better and better at whatever he is doing. So he is potential in the sense that he is going to become a very good version of his self. Gordon is just adding more tools to his swiss army knife and will continue to sharpen them all.

[Skin]

Groooooooot!

Always maintained faith. Not sold that Clifford can get the most out of him though.

Stop trying to make the Groot nickname happen.

(Insert Mean Girls image)

It's never going to happen.

well the horrible BIG nickname still get's used, Groot is no worse than that rubbish.

Mods: rename this thread to Eating Crow: VOL. I AM GROOT

[bargnanimvp]

Stop trying to make the Groot nickname happen.

(Insert Mean Girls image)

It's never going to happen.

well the horrible BIG nickname still get's used, Groot is no worse than that rubbish.

Mods: rename this thread to Eating Crow: VOL. I AM GROOT

I actually don't mind calling him GROOT.

[MagicFan101]

[fendilim]

People keep moving the goalposts with Gordon.

Also "People frown upon Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle’s potential".

Wiggins has shown to only be an inefficient chucker on a max contract, has effort problems.

Parker has not shown any desire to play any defense.

Exum has not gained any sort of traction with his play, timid.

Randle is like a bull in a china shop on offense, but he's gotten way better there. Still iffy on defense too.

AG is the only legit two way player on this list and is now starting to show that he can make plays decently with the ball as well. And he's on a decent contract. That isn't even being a homer either, because I would trade AG if it meant a roster that made more sense and we were getting back a great guard.. but he''s not frowned upon as much as those guys because he works his tail off on defense, and supplies more than adequate offense more often than not.

moving? Maybe waiting.

We’re still waiting for him to breakout in his 5th year.

[MagicFan101]

People keep moving the goalposts with Gordon.

Also "People frown upon Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle’s potential".

Wiggins has shown to only be an inefficient chucker on a max contract, has effort problems.

Parker has not shown any desire to play any defense.

Exum has not gained any sort of traction with his play, timid.

Randle is like a bull in a china shop on offense, but he's gotten way better there. Still iffy on defense too.

AG is the only legit two way player on this list and is now starting to show that he can make plays decently with the ball as well. And he's on a decent contract. That isn't even being a homer either, because I would trade AG if it meant a roster that made more sense and we were getting back a great guard.. but he''s not frowned upon as much as those guys because he works his tail off on defense, and supplies more than adequate offense more often than not.

moving? Maybe waiting.

We’re still waiting for him to breakout in his 5th year.

Why? We paid him like a decent starter, not a star. Seems about right to me. What are you waiting for?

[fendilim]

People keep moving the goalposts with Gordon.

Also "People frown upon Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle’s potential".

Wiggins has shown to only be an inefficient chucker on a max contract, has effort problems.

Parker has not shown any desire to play any defense.

Exum has not gained any sort of traction with his play, timid.

Randle is like a bull in a china shop on offense, but he's gotten way better there. Still iffy on defense too.

AG is the only legit two way player on this list and is now starting to show that he can make plays decently with the ball as well. And he's on a decent contract. That isn't even being a homer either, because I would trade AG if it meant a roster that made more sense and we were getting back a great guard.. but he''s not frowned upon as much as those guys because he works his tail off on defense, and supplies more than adequate offense more often than not.

moving? Maybe waiting.

We’re still waiting for him to breakout in his 5th year.

Why? We paid him like a decent starter, not a star. Seems about right to me. What are you waiting for?

exactly the problem though.

we paid him to be a starter, and yet people still talk about his potential to be a star.

[SOUL]

moving? Maybe waiting.

We’re still waiting for him to breakout in his 5th year.

Why? We paid him like a decent starter, not a star. Seems about right to me. What are you waiting for?

exactly the problem though.

we paid him to be a starter, and yet people still talk about his potential to be a star.

Who is? All people are saying is he's not done getting better. Hell, we thought Vuc was done getting better after he stagnated for a few years and he kicked it to another level this year.

[PrimeThyme]

Read on Twitter

You just can't teach these kinds of defensive instincts. Its the reason why I've always been willing to take the gamble on him ever figuring it out on the offensive end because I know the kind of special defender he is. I think in the coming years he is really going to start to surprise people on the offensive end too tho.

[fendilim]

Why? We paid him like a decent starter, not a star. Seems about right to me. What are you waiting for?

exactly the problem though.

we paid him to be a starter, and yet people still talk about his potential to be a star.

Who is? All people are saying is he's not done getting better. Hell, we thought Vuc was done getting better after he stagnated for a few years and he kicked it to another level this year.

CHECK previous pages. Even comparing him to guys like Kawhi, Paul George etc. lol

Oh and about Vuc, only haters didnt see it. Guys like Doc Rivers or Durant even said he was allstar caliber waaay back. Vuc has always had these skills, just so happens he gets the blame for all the losing.

[Bonafide89]

People keep moving the goalposts with Gordon.

Also "People frown upon Wiggins, Parker, Exum, Randle’s potential".

Wiggins has shown to only be an inefficient chucker on a max contract, has effort problems.

Parker has not shown any desire to play any defense.

Exum has not gained any sort of traction with his play, timid.

Randle is like a bull in a china shop on offense, but he's gotten way better there. Still iffy on defense too.

AG is the only legit two way player on this list and is now starting to show that he can make plays decently with the ball as well. And he's on a decent contract. That isn't even being a homer either, because I would trade AG if it meant a roster that made more sense and we were getting back a great guard.. but he''s not frowned upon as much as those guys because he works his tail off on defense, and supplies more than adequate offense more often than not.

I've got to disagree on the Wiggins and Randle criticisms. I still have high hopes for both players futures, which will be heavily dependent on the coaching situations they end up in.

I would trade Randle for Vuc right now. In fact, I think we could swap them today and we might actually improve since Randle is a much more reliable offensive option than Vuc. Some team will miss out on big name FAs this summer and sign Randle as a cheaper back up - and they're going to be incredibly shocked at what he brings to them.

Exum... he hasn't shown much. I want him to be great, but Utah are pretty fantastic at developing players, so I would imagine they've identified his ceiling somewhat.

But, 'potential' still describes all of them. They all have latent and unfulfilled abilities that someday might rise to the surface.

Wiggins i believe is what he is.... and doesn't seem to have the drive to get muuuuuch better. Randle is still a dang bull in a china shop and can pretty much get better and better at whatever he is doing. So he is potential in the sense that he is going to become a very good version of his self. Gordon is just adding more tools to his swiss army knife and will continue to sharpen them all.

People will look at AG's numbers and say he's stagnated. If you're watching him, you can clearly see he is involving into an all around player. He's doesn't seem concerned about his stats and seems fine with Vuc operating as our primary option, which is what is best for the team at the moment.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

[SOUL]

Oh and about Vuc, only haters didnt see it. Guys like Doc Rivers or Durant even said he was allstar caliber waaay back. Vuc has always had these skills, just so happens he gets the blame for all the losing.

Oh BS. The guy started off here as a beast, but then his game started getting further and further from the basket, without shooting threes or working the paint as much. He was 10th/11th on the team in shot efficiency for a few years because he was taking a lot of usage of the offense and was taking tons of midrange shots and not getting to the line or shooting threes.

We also didn't ever use him for his passing like Cliff has, and credit to Vuc, he has also gotten better in that area. If the argument from people were "Vuc is magically going to be used as a inside out facilitator on offense, and also hes going to learn how to shoot threes competently so that the spacing is even better" then yes, I will give them all the credit in the world. That never happened.

In fact, I remember having debates with YOU and others who argued that Vuc didn't need to shoot threes nor get to the line more. And I said our offense will always be garbage then because if we're relying on a mid-range player to be our featured player, and he can't get easy points any other way, we are doomed.

Credit to Vuc completely, but to say that only "Vuc haters" couldn't see this coming is very false.

Also I didn't see any comparisons about Kawhi or George, just the starts that are comparing drive rates from BadHombre. Regardless, the only time I ever remember him being compared to the two was when Vogel said he wanted to start using him like George. They're obviously not similar players at all and nobody should expect him to become those guys.

[Knightro]

Isaac’s offensive ceiling absolutely comes down to how much he can improve his ball handling.

Players can improve their shooting with the right kind of practice and constant repetition. I am confident Isaac will end up being at worst a respectable 3PT shooter.

My personal opinion is that ball handling is not generally something that guys make massive improvements on once they get into the NBA. Ball handling gains are typically more subtle than that.

I’m much less confident that JI will be able to make the kind of gains he needs to make as a dribbler to ever become a superstar offensive threat, but that’s ok!

If he really develops his shot, he has enough chops as a cutter, transition player and put back guy to still score plenty of points.

[BadHombre]

exactly the problem though.

we paid him to be a starter, and yet people still talk about his potential to be a star.

Who is? All people are saying is he's not done getting better. Hell, we thought Vuc was done getting better after he stagnated for a few years and he kicked it to another level this year.

CHECK previous pages. Even comparing him to guys like Kawhi, Paul George etc. lol

Oh and about Vuc, only haters didnt see it. Guys like Doc Rivers or Durant even said he was allstar caliber waaay back. Vuc has always had these skills, just so happens he gets the blame for all the losing.

They were lengthy posts, but I made the point several times that the comparisons aren’t to set expectations for AG to become Kawhi/George, but that development can come on late for some players.

If you can find me a SF/PF who entered the league being labelled a PF, with no real noted handling or playmaking ability, who later added that to their game, then I’m happy to run with that.

Or you can just keep being an AG Hater.

[pepe1991]

I can't speak about others, but to me Smart, Jabari , Stauskas, Gordon, Embiid, Wiggins and everybody else from 2014 draft class are pretty much finished products.
Some small improvments will probably happen for some of them ,but overall i just don't see scenario where some from that group will now make huge leap in development.
5 years passed by, guys from draft class have between 250- 380 games under their belts, between 6000-9000 min played.
10 of 14 ( 9 of 14 if you don't count Wiggins) were already traded at least once.

After allstar game in 2017, 2 years ago Gordon averaged 16 ppg, 6,6 rpg, 1,9 apg on 50%FG and 28% for 3. in 31 mpg.
During April of 2017 he averaged 19 ppg, 8 rpg and shot 41,7% for 3 ( small sample size, 6 games).
Now, 2 years later Gordon is averaging : 15,8 ppg, 7,3 rpg, 3,5 apg, 44% FG and 34% for 3.
Overall only big difference is his 3%, but even that thing goes up and down through a season a lot. Last year he started guns blazing just to shoot below 30% for 3 months.

As you can see,apart from nice boost in assists ( and increesed playing time and increesed turnovers) he is pretty much similar to his production he had 3 seasons ago. But people for years are so desparate for star that they want to see more in him than he can offer.

But Magic have star, problem is that most of you hate a guy , but that's on you.

[BadHombre]

I can't speak about others, but to me Smart, Jabari , Stauskas, Gordon, Embiid, Wiggins and everybody else from 2014 draft class are pretty much finished products.
Some small improvments will probably happen for some of them ,but overall i just don't see scenario where some from that group will now make huge leap in development.
5 years passed by, guys from draft class have between 250- 380 games under their belts, between 6000-9000 min played.
10 of 14 ( 9 of 14 if you don't count Wiggins) were already traded at least once.

After allstar game in 2017, 2 years ago Gordon averaged 16 ppg, 6,6 rpg, 1,9 apg on 50%FG and 28% for 3. in 31 mpg.
During April of 2017 he averaged 19 ppg, 8 rpg and shot 41,7% for 3 ( small sample size, 6 games).
Now, 2 years later Gordon is averaging : 15,8 ppg, 7,3 rpg, 3,5 apg, 44% FG and 34% for 3.
Overall only big difference is his 3%, but even that thing goes up and down through a season a lot. Last year he started guns blazing just to shoot below 30% for 3 months.

As you can see,apart from nice boost in assists ( and increesed playing time and increesed turnovers) he is pretty much similar to his production he had 3 seasons ago. But people for years are so desparate for star that they want to see more in him than he can offer.

But Magic have star, problem is that most of you hate a guy , but that's on you.

Did you watch those games two seasons ago? How anyone can say we’re watching the same AG is pretty absurd. AG wasn’t running point and facilitating like he is now, he wasn’t driving and getting to the rim like he is now.

Come on man. You know it’s true. His game has changed significantly. Just admit it. No one is saying he’s a star and no one has even uttered that kind of sentiment, so no one is asking you to concede that point, but he has developed and become a much more complete player now. That’s a good thing!

[SOUL]

Yeah, basketball potential is sort of like height and weight. After a certain age, you stop growing taller. But you can still gain weight, lose weight, become 300 lbs or slimmed down. Your height limit is capped but you can still change enough about yourself to do things you couldn't do while you were slimmer or heavier, that's what Gordon is doing now. He's not suddenly going to become a star scorer, but he can tinker and hone in on his skills to become a super effective 2-way player in his own right, just like he's shown the last 4 years, but doing it more consistently and more effectively.

And also the environment around them plays a big role, even if their skills are capped at, say, a random number, 82 out of 100, the scope of the NBA and how its played could bring it up to an 88. Or a 70 to a 75, 90 to a 95. Whatever it may be, just because a player is (blank level) good here, doesn't mean they are finished products. Rashard Lewis was ahead of the curve with the three pointers, and played in both eras to where it was not a prominent or sought after "must have" skill to have on a team, to something that was extremely important in our finals run. Now? The guy would be taking like 10 a game. Even Sam Perkins before him, or any other decent-good floor stretching bigs, they may have been just a useful cog in their team, but if they played in today's game, that same guy with the same skill level may have much more of an impact. Tight ends in football now are getting tons of touches and looks, and many of them who hare these inflated stat seasons aren't having these seasons because they were better than some beastly, hall of fame level tight ends in the 90s, but because they're being targeted more and are making the most out of certain skillsets being appreciated in the current climate.

TLDR: Production and ceilings are not only numbers based and have a lot of factors that go into it.

[fendilim]

Oh and about Vuc, only haters didnt see it. Guys like Doc Rivers or Durant even said he was allstar caliber waaay back. Vuc has always had these skills, just so happens he gets the blame for all the losing.

Oh BS. The guy started off here as a beast, but then his game started getting further and further from the basket, without shooting threes or working the paint as much. He was 10th/11th on the team in shot efficiency for a few years because he was taking a lot of usage of the offense and was taking tons of midrange shots and not getting to the line or shooting threes.

We also didn't ever use him for his passing like Cliff has, and credit to Vuc, he has also gotten better in that area. If the argument from people were "Vuc is magically going to be used as a inside out facilitator on offense, and also hes going to learn how to shoot threes competently so that the spacing is even better" then yes, I will give them all the credit in the world. That never happened.

In fact, I remember having debates with YOU and others who argued that Vuc didn't need to shoot threes nor get to the line more. And I said our offense will always be garbage then because if we're relying on a mid-range player to be our featured player, and he can't get easy points any other way, we are doomed.

Credit to Vuc completely, but to say that only "Vuc haters" couldn't see this coming is very false.

Also I didn't see any comparisons about Kawhi or George, just the starts that are comparing drive rates from BadHombre. Regardless, the only time I ever remember him being compared to the two was when Vogel said he wanted to start using him like George. They're obviously not similar players at all and nobody should expect him to become those guys.

Yes he didnt need to shoot threes. All his purpose for those offensive schemes was to stretch the floor to create lane for Payton and Gordon. Thats why he was a beast during his 1st year, and drifted away from the basket after that; because of the arrival of Payton and Gordon. It was a conscious effort by management and Vaughn to integrate both of the young players into the system thats why we even pursued Frye and Smith. We even tried to sign Patrick Patterson, before Frye. Because we needed the opposing bigs to go out which would create lanes for Payton and Gordon.

Vucevic’ passing game didnt mystically improve this year. It has always been trending upward since his arrival. He is currently averaging 4.4apg, just a +.3 difference from last year. This part of the game has always been overlooked because people tend to exaggerate it and say he always pass to Evan.
Vuc apg numbers have increased +.6 from previous season at least twice in his 7 year career. But suddenly the +.3 apg this year is whats turning people’s heads not the +.6 which happened twice??

Also, you may want to read after the drives per game comparison, when George, Kawhi’s 5th year accomplishments started getting compared to Gordon as well. The fact that he was being compared to certain guys, means there is a certain level expectation for AG to play like those players.