Andrew Wiggins and the wolves future

[Nick K]

A different coach could get more from Wiggins. I really don't think Thibs knows how to handle him.

Since he got here, Wiggins has seen a decrease in attempts from 0-3ft (i.e. the rim), a decrease in FT rate and a significant increase in 3pt attempt rate. For a so-so shooter with good percentages around the rim and a rookie season where he thrived getting to the line, it's tough to see this as playing to Wigg's strengths. They need to get him post touches, give and goes with KAT, back door cuts, anything other than spotting up and ISO plays which seems to be all he does with Thibs. And that isn't mentioning the pace the team plays at (24th last season, 25th the year before) which should be much higher given the athletic ability of guys like Wiggins and having the near perfect trail guy in Towns.

And no, I don't think that would make him any less overpaid. But we're stuck with him whether we (or even the team) likes it, so we might as well get what we can out of him.

I've thought that too. Thibs problem as a coach isn't the x and o's, he's brilliant there, it's he can't get this group to buy in to what he wants. Wiggins ain't buying any of it. Towns not so much for that matter. Of course Thibs system is horribly outdated and the players know it. Their buddies are laughing at them in the summer months when they get together. Then they silently resist Thibs all the more.

The old saying is, "you can't fire all the players but you can fire the coach." No wonder why the coach and GM must be different.

[rugbyrugger23]

First hindsight:
Biggest mistake Wolves made was not making Wiggins centerpiece of Butler trade. Thibs was trading asset(s) no matter what. He wasn't about to develop a young squad and take multiple years to be relevant in playoffs.

Moving Forward...
1. Wiggins needs to be made centerpiece of new offense (from the wing) with Towns centerpiece from the post.
2. Butler needs to be traded for player(s) who can make that true. IF Wiggins is ideal at SG (I think he is but Thibs decides), than find a SF who can play D and allow for Wiggins to shine. Lineup doesn't need more scorers and players who need to have ball in hand.
3. Figure out PG situation. If Teague doesn't make Wiggins or Towns better (I dont think he does) find a PG who can make 2 centerpieces of Wolves offense better and produce more efficient. Is this player already on roster in Jones?
4. Ideal big next to Towns. Gibson is a place holder, Patton is injured. Wolves have plenty of assets for a consolidation trade: Okogie, all 1sts, Jones and/or Patton (if not part of longterm plan), expiring contracts, and any assets acquired in Butler trade. Go out and get said player on roster now -- so he and Towns can grow a working relationship and chemistry in the post.

Bottomline, Wolves are stuck with making Wiggins situation better -- and all scenarios must be considered -- including evaluating new coach(es) and multiple roster moves.

[KGdaBom]

First hindsight:
Biggest mistake Wolves made was not making Wiggins centerpiece of Butler trade. Thibs was trading asset(s) no matter what. He wasn't about to develop a young squad and take multiple years to be relevant in playoffs.

Moving Forward...
1. Wiggins needs to be made centerpiece of new offense (from the wing) with Towns centerpiece from the post.
2. Butler needs to be traded for player(s) who can make that true. IF Wiggins is ideal at SG (I think he is but Thibs decides), than find a SF who can play D and allow for Wiggins to shine. Lineup doesn't need more scorers and players who need to have ball in hand.
3. Figure out PG situation. If Teague doesn't make Wiggins or Towns better (I dont think he does) find a PG who can make 2 centerpieces of Wolves offense better and produce more efficient. Is this player already on roster in Jones?
4. Ideal big next to Towns. Gibson is a place holder, Patton is injured. Wolves have plenty of assets for a consolidation trade: Okogie, all 1sts, Jones and/or Patton (if not part of longterm plan), expiring contracts, and any assets acquired in Butler trade. Go out and get said player on roster now -- so he and Towns can grow a working relationship and chemistry in the post.

Bottomline, Wolves are stuck with making Wiggins situation better -- and all scenarios must be considered -- including evaluating new coach(es) and multiple roster moves.

I disagree with making Wiggins more important. We should probably cut our losses by making him less important.

[Rashodamus]

So if Thibs did his work well the current roster would be better than the 31 wins we had before Butler, since not only the roster should have better teamwork, and developed youngs , but also is like 40M above that team in salaries. Don't really know how many wins that will translate.

Its not so binary, its not just Lavine/Dunn/Lauri vs patton/butler. Its more about value that looking at that specific roster of players and envisioning a contender. The package we sent out went up in value, the one we got back went down significantly. The money spent on Gibson/Teague could have been spent taking on a salary and picking up a FRPs like the kings are trying to do. We would have likely retained the pick we sent to Atlanta, which would be a lotto pick in the recent draft. We would have maintained a lot of flexibility and desirable pieces we could consolidate. What if instead of looking at it as Lavine/Dunn/Lauri you flip Lavine+our 2018 lotto pick to Atlanta and snag Doncic? I dont see the Lavine/Dunn/Lauri pieces leading us to a title, I see assets waiting to be cashed in on. The notion of the Butler trade was spot on, the timing and the target were all wrong.

Its not just 31 wins. Does nobody remember Thibs start here? Off ball Rubio, point Wiggins, it literally seemed as if he was tanking and going to youth route his first year. That team underperformed and most people chalked it up to Thibs testing his players and seeing what they could do etc. I believe this to be total BS now, I dont think there was any scheme, I think he was doing what Thibs does and trying to pound square pegs into round holes.

[Killboard]

Great! Can't wait for this mysterious person to "unlock" Wiggins' motivation.

Don't forget college too! There were questions about his effort there also. Almost like scouts talked about this before he was drafted and 4 years later nothings changed other then being rewarded by Glen Taylor.

Youre ignoring logic for emotional whining. What I said was fact, if you want to dispute it then do so. But all you are doing is what I called you out for initially, implying that its impossible to get more from him because his previous coaches didnt. Again, their failure doesnt prove anything other than their failure. We agree they failed, you simply dont want to apply responsibility for the failure because you apparently believe its impossible. I disagree and point to proven times when hes shown to play harder, such as Tor/Cle games.

Your "mysterious person to unlock wiggins motivation!" sounds just like kgdabombs "crystal ball to know the butler trade would be a disaster!". Since you are unable to quantify what would be needed to accomplish the goal you simply chalk it up to magic, no different than his inability to critically evaluate the trade so he determined a crystal ball was needed to make such a prediction.

Crystal balls and mystery men...I will just rely on logic if you dont mind.

Looking at someone's history and seeing they've always been a certain way and expecting it to continue, that's simple logic. You expecting someone(no idea who) to completely change Wiggins where he's motivated seems like hope... not logic. It would be nice if that were to happen, it would help Minnesota greatly but the chances of that happening with Wiggins history isn't likely at all.

I agree it's a really long shot, but is a shot you must take. The GM job Thibs took was attached to the development of the of Wiggins, even more so if it was Taylor premise. Thibs failed at this and his job is on the line now.

[minimus]

First hindsight:
Biggest mistake Wolves made was not making Wiggins centerpiece of Butler trade. Thibs was trading asset(s) no matter what. He wasn't about to develop a young squad and take multiple years to be relevant in playoffs.

Moving Forward...
1. Wiggins needs to be made centerpiece of new offense (from the wing) with Towns centerpiece from the post.
2. Butler needs to be traded for player(s) who can make that true. IF Wiggins is ideal at SG (I think he is but Thibs decides), than find a SF who can play D and allow for Wiggins to shine. Lineup doesn't need more scorers and players who need to have ball in hand.
3. Figure out PG situation. If Teague doesn't make Wiggins or Towns better (I dont think he does) find a PG who can make 2 centerpieces of Wolves offense better and produce more efficient. Is this player already on roster in Jones?
4. Ideal big next to Towns. Gibson is a place holder, Patton is injured. Wolves have plenty of assets for a consolidation trade: Okogie, all 1sts, Jones and/or Patton (if not part of longterm plan), expiring contracts, and any assets acquired in Butler trade. Go out and get said player on roster now -- so he and Towns can grow a working relationship and chemistry in the post.

Bottomline, Wolves are stuck with making Wiggins situation better -- and all scenarios must be considered -- including evaluating new coach(es) and multiple roster moves.

Yeah, I thought the same. The best chance to keep Wiggins involved in offense is when he can operate on low post and shot over defender. Taj and Butler were not an ideal fit in this situation. KAT is versatile enough to co-exist with Wiggins. So a stretch four, 3&D and solid PG who can shoot from 3 and defend could make life for Wiggins much much easier.

[MN7725]

4. Ideal big next to Towns. Gibson is a place holder, Patton is injured. Wolves have plenty of assets for a consolidation trade: Okogie, all 1sts, Jones and/or Patton (if not part of longterm plan), expiring contracts, and any assets acquired in Butler trade. Go out and get said player on roster now -- so he and Towns can grow a working relationship and chemistry in the post.

What would that be?

I have said for years that Wolves should run an all-switching defense to take advantage of KAT's relatively good mobility, with the added bonus that it would encourage KAT to keep his weight down which I believe will be more beneficial for his health long-term

That would mean the "PF" would have to be extremely mobile as well. I thought Anonuby would be a good partner long-term at PF if the team would be committed to this defensively

But if committed to a structure like Thibs prefers, "two big" lineups, very little defensive switching, dropping the bigs in pick/roll defense, etc, obviously changes what you want next to KAT pretty drastically

[AirP.]

I agree it's a really long shot, but is a shot you must take. The GM job Thibs took was attached to the development of the of Wiggins, even more so if it was Taylor premise. Thibs failed at this and his job is on the line now.

Maybe that's why Thibs wanted to move Wiggins after giving him the 2nd most FGA in the entire NBA, he saw the desire to work or get better wasn't there. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Look at the 76ers, how many high lottery picks did they have to go through to end up with only Simmons and Embiid? Noel and Okafor are now elsewhere on their 3rd teams, just because you're drafted high doesn't mean you're going to be good.

Who knows, I can look at the other young potential player, Towns and he just became an all-nba player under Thibs.

[rugbyrugger23]

4. Ideal big next to Towns. Gibson is a place holder, Patton is injured. Wolves have plenty of assets for a consolidation trade: Okogie, all 1sts, Jones and/or Patton (if not part of longterm plan), expiring contracts, and any assets acquired in Butler trade. Go out and get said player on roster now -- so he and Towns can grow a working relationship and chemistry in the post.

What would that be?

I have said for years that Wolves should run an all-switching defense to take advantage of KAT's relatively good mobility, with the added bonus that it would encourage KAT to keep his weight down which I believe will be more beneficial for his health long-term

That would mean the "PF" would have to be extremely mobile as well. I thought Anonuby would be a good partner long-term at PF if the team would be committed to this defensively

But if committed to a structure like Thibs prefers, "two big" lineups, very little defensive switching, dropping the bigs in pick/roll defense, etc, obviously changes what you want next to KAT pretty drastically

I have always liked Aaron Gordon idea next to Towns. Seems like he could become Dray-Green-lite as he improves his 3 point shot, defense, and versatility next to Towns.

[CP1981]

Wiggins lead the team with fga last year
Didnt rebound
Didnt pass
Was inefficient
Defense was still inconsistent


And some Wolves fans want to make give him a bigger role on offense. Despite what the evidence showed when he previously had a bigger role and all he did was score more points but still inefficiently. Add in the lack of him doing nothing else to contribute to the team winning

So more blame for the coach, offense. pg. Hell blame the snack vendors too

When will some Wolves fans hold this dude accountable.

Someone posted the preseason numbers and Kat was among the best so far while Wiggins was among the worst

One guy has no issue playing well while the other looks to be going through the motions. So the solution for some Wolves fans is to give him a bigger role and blame everyone else for his struggles. Hilarious

Read on Twitter

[minimus]

Wiggins lead the team with fga last year
Didnt rebound
Didnt pass
Was inefficient
Defense was still inconsistent


And some Wolves fans want to make give him a bigger role on offense. Despite what the evidence showed when he previously had a bigger role and all he did was score more points but still inefficiently. Add in the lack of him doing nothing else to contribute to the team winning

So more blame for the coach, offense. pg. Hell blame the snack vendors too

When will some Wolves fans hold this dude accountable.

Someone posted the preseason numbers and Kat was among the best so far while Wiggins was among the worst

One guy has no issue playing well while the other looks to be going through the motions. So the solution for some Wolves fans is to give him a bigger role and blame everyone else for his struggles. Hilarious

Read on Twitter

I have already posted numbers from Wiggins and KAT from two years ago with Rubio, Rush, Bjelica, Dieng. Just check these numbers from LaVine injury to Bjelica's injury. Both KAT and Wiggins played extremely well. Shot well, tried to defend and actually won games against quality teams. So your statement is only partially true.

Wiggins
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wiggian01/gamelog/2017#213-231-sum:pgl_basic

KAT
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01/gamelog/2017#132-150-sum:pgl_basic

[Jedzz]

327 games. Three hundred twenty seven games. Shall we pick out a single 19 game stretch and assume that future? Or could we pick out any of the sixteen other 19 game stretches and assume any of those as his possible future?

[immortalone23]

None of his “effort” will really matter until it wins us games.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[minimus]

327 games. Three hundred twenty seven games. Shall we pick out a single 19 game stretch and assume that future? Or could we pick out any of the sixteen other 19 game stretches and assume any of those as his possible future?

A man can dream

[Kabookalu]

Us Raptors fans fell for this same trap with Andrea Bargnani when he had this great 13 game stretch that made him look like a legitimate all star. "13 games Bargnani" is actually a meme on our board now. I've defended Bargnani for the same reasons some of you are defending Wiggins now; there's an emotional barrier that's preventing him from unleashing his potential. With Bargnani I also thought it's because he couldn't find the right coach. The minute he was drafted by Toronto he was coddled by Colangelo, and I believed that Bargnani lost respect for management and the coaching staff as a result, and didn't try as hard as he could have because of it.

He finally hit his stride under Dwane Casey which ignited those magical 13 games, but got injured, and we never saw that same player again. After years of posting theories and pseudo psychological profiles of Bargnani, I finally felt vindicated in those 13 games, and it was totally not worth it. I still believe Bargnani could have worked out under different circumstances, some players are just built that way. Dennis Rodman had to be handled a certain way that only Chuck Daly knew about. Poppovich couldn't figure Rodman out and scorned him. Daly told Phil Jackson how Rodman needed to be coached, and he ended up being an integral piece to the second Chicago three peat. But it's not worth trying to play detective figuring out what makes these players ticks, because it's way beyond your ability to fix it as a fan.

[uberhikari]

It seems like I'm one of few Wolves fans that actually likes Wigs. I really think he will have a great year; you can quote me if I'm wrong by the All-Star break. But, I'm sure as Wolves fans, everyone hopes I'm right.

It's the ASB, and Wiggins is looking worse than ever. Jesus H. Christ.

[shrink]

Maybe RubioGuy has the better thread title on the Trade Board.

Wiggins and the Wolves future FIRST

[McHalesBurner]

I know this will sound insane, but I think we should consider buying Wiggins out. His absurd salary gives him high status in the minds of our other players, and we can't have such a loser as one of the lead dogs of this team. His presence is poison.

[wolfen]

I flat out don't think his trade value would get any lower if he was a 20-minute bench microwave. Certainly, his value will never go up, he'll never get significantly better, pretty sure of that. The organization just has to swallow their pride and bring a max player off of the bench.

[Calinks]

At this point I dont think effort is his worst issue. Maybe he could use more effort and play a bit harder but I'm starting to think, he's just bad at basketball. He's just not that good. Basically a super athletic, physically gifted guy with no real talent for the game. No level of coaching or criticism will turn him into a good player. It's like a guy who is really tough, can hit like a mac truck, and is really nimble on his feet. Got all the physical tools to be a great boxer but with zero mental ability/know how. In HS his physical gifts were so great they compensated for everything. In college he was still able to dominate with them. NBA, he can't keep up.