Political Roundtable Part XXV

[Jamaaliver]

Like 99.99999999999% of AOC criticism is done in bad faith and totally bereft of any serious desire for policy discussion.

Which, to be fair, Serious Policy Discussion™ isn't a prerequisite for having a dialog - AOC herself, like Bernie, is an avatar for broader socioeconomic change, and her policy pronouncements are more about moving the Overton Window than getting into wonky details.

But the point is that people are ultimately attacking what she stands for because it fundamentally threatens their bottom line. See Howard Schultz.

99%

I...disagree.


Howard Schultz and his ilk clearly have their own agendas. But if you're dismissing the great majority of anyone's critics (even within the same party), I think you might be ignoring any valid criticisms mixed with the less credible ones.

[gtn130]

Like 99.99999999999% of AOC criticism is done in bad faith and totally bereft of any serious desire for policy discussion.

Which, to be fair, Serious Policy Discussion™ isn't a prerequisite for having a dialog - AOC herself, like Bernie, is an avatar for broader socioeconomic change, and her policy pronouncements are more about moving the Overton Window than getting into wonky details.

But the point is that people are ultimately attacking what she stands for because it fundamentally threatens their bottom line. See Howard Schultz.

99%

I...disagree.


Howard Schultz and his ilk clearly have their own agendas. But if you're dismissing the great majority of anyone's critics (even within the same party), I think you might be ignoring any valid criticisms mixed with the less credible ones.

What are the credible criticisms? That the GND isn't perfectly optimized legislation? There's a lengthy process for vetting and improving legislation as it goes through Congress. Treating the GND like it's on the verge of becoming law is the definition of bad faith.

[stilldropin20]

look...we need to change our tax system and structure. and change it in ways where the wealthy elite at the top BOTH: 1. have their wealth captured in the US and 2. That wealth is taxed at higher rates.

I'm talking about the highest earners and largest and most profitable corporations.

And thats about the only thing AOC and Bernie have right. Thats why i voted for Bernie over HRC and thats why i was upset with HRC/DNC as the railroaded bernie with closed primaries and super delegates...once he was out...i turned my ire toward HRC...never ever imagined Trump would beat her. He did and I was really proud of america on that day.

And ive been ever more proud since then.

trump aint the guy to tax the elites. but he is the guy to:

1. turn the economy around and give it some rocket fuel. (done)
2. redo trade deals going forward so as to better american current and future jobs prospects. (mostly done)
3. Close our borders to drug traffickers and criminals. (Getting done)
4. re-open our credit markets. (done)
5. reduce taxes for all. (done)
6. immigration reform (will likely get done)
7. make china pay for stealing our intellectual property (getting done)
8. save babies from getting murdered in late term abortions (done at supreme court)
9. rebuild military (done)
10. Get north korea under control (done)
11. defeat isis completely 99% (done)
12. end afghan wars. (just about done)
13. put everyone back to work with rising wages (done)

Trump cant do everything. Not much left to do.

A future administration will need to:

1. tax the elites
2. get the budget under control (pay down debt)

without:

1. destroying the economy along the way.

[dckingsfan]

Like 99.99999999999% of AOC criticism is done in bad faith and totally bereft of any serious desire for policy discussion.

Which, to be fair, Serious Policy Discussion™ isn't a prerequisite for having a dialog - AOC herself, like Bernie, is an avatar for broader socioeconomic change, and her policy pronouncements are more about moving the Overton Window than getting into wonky details.

But the point is that people are ultimately attacking what she stands for because it fundamentally threatens their bottom line. See Howard Schultz.

99%

I...disagree.

Howard Schultz and his ilk clearly have their own agendas. But if you're dismissing the great majority of anyone's critics (even within the same party), I think you might be ignoring any valid criticisms mixed with the less credible ones.

What are the credible criticisms? That the GND isn't perfectly optimized legislation? There's a lengthy process for vetting and improving legislation as it goes through Congress. Treating the GND like it's on the verge of becoming law is the definition of bad faith.

So, first is it a manifesto or real proposals. I think it is more a manifesto? But they want to be taken seriously (as in a serious proposal).

Originally, the GND was posted as needing to be done in the next 10 years. They took this down to due to the ridiculous nature of the "proposal". Getting rid of dairy, air travel and having carbon neutral housing in ten years... And that doesn't even take on the costs - which are enormous (and the answers have been disingenuous).

Because of the missteps - it has been hard to take the GND team seriously. I think the onus is now on the GND folks to break out serious proposals from their manifesto.

[gtn130]

99%

I...disagree.

Howard Schultz and his ilk clearly have their own agendas. But if you're dismissing the great majority of anyone's critics (even within the same party), I think you might be ignoring any valid criticisms mixed with the less credible ones.

What are the credible criticisms? That the GND isn't perfectly optimized legislation? There's a lengthy process for vetting and improving legislation as it goes through Congress. Treating the GND like it's on the verge of becoming law is the definition of bad faith.

So, first is it a manifesto or real proposals. I think it is more a manifesto? But they want to be taken seriously (as in a serious proposal).

Originally, the GND was posted as needing to be done in the next 10 years. They took this down to due to the ridiculous nature of the "proposal". Getting rid of dairy, air travel and having carbon neutral housing in ten years... And that doesn't even take on the costs - which are enormous (and the answers have been disingenuous).

Because of the missteps - it has been hard to take the GND team seriously. I think the onus is now on the GND folks to break out serious proposals from their manifesto.

They can be taken seriously because the problems they're trying to solve are real and imminent, and nobody else in Congress is actually trying to accomplish anything. Centrist Democrats want incremental progress only at the behest of their donors - things like tax incentives and flex spending accounts and other bull**** that doesn't actually help anyone. Republicans are obviously evil and want fascism.

There is no vehicle for passing any progressive legislation. There is no reality in which the GND ever becomes law until maybe 2024. Nailing down all of these wonky details you're looking for is a fool's errand because they don't actually matter to voters. If there were more dckingsfans in the world then people like Howard Schultz and Bill Kristol would have a constituency - they don't.

The GND is functionally an Overton Window mover that gets people talking about what matters. The people attacking random arbitrary details in the proposal that would change 100x over between now and when this legislation could actually pass, are 100% doing so in bad faith.

[Ruzious]

Speaking of the absolutely idiotic tax reform passed in December, 2017, this new Section 199A subtraction causes the most involved moronic calculations ever - and they still haven't written the final regulations because the piece of shyt legislation was rushed through Congress without any thought by people who had no clue and really didn't give a f. I'm guessing Ryan's resignation was in part - because of that - he should be ashamed of it - for it's amateurism and content, frankly. I almost feel bad for people with real estate partnerships. Haaaaahahaha. Ahhhhhhh. Almost.

[dckingsfan]

What are the credible criticisms? That the GND isn't perfectly optimized legislation? There's a lengthy process for vetting and improving legislation as it goes through Congress. Treating the GND like it's on the verge of becoming law is the definition of bad faith.

So, first is it a manifesto or real proposals. I think it is more a manifesto? But they want to be taken seriously (as in a serious proposal).

Originally, the GND was posted as needing to be done in the next 10 years. They took this down to due to the ridiculous nature of the "proposal". Getting rid of dairy, air travel and having carbon neutral housing in ten years... And that doesn't even take on the costs - which are enormous (and the answers have been disingenuous).

Because of the missteps - it has been hard to take the GND team seriously. I think the onus is now on the GND folks to break out serious proposals from their manifesto.

They can be taken seriously because the problems they're trying to solve are real and imminent, and nobody else in Congress is actually trying to accomplish anything. Centrist Democrats want incremental progress only at the behest of their donors - things like tax incentives and flex spending accounts and other bull**** that doesn't actually help anyone. Republicans are obviously evil and want fascism.

There is no vehicle for passing any progressive legislation. There is no reality in which the GND ever becomes law until maybe 2024. Nailing down all of these wonky details you're looking for is a fool's errand because they don't actually matter to voters. If there were more dckingsfans in the world then people like Howard Schultz and Bill Kristol would have a constituency - they don't.

The GND is functionally an Overton Window mover that gets people talking about what matters. The people attacking random arbitrary details in the proposal that would change 100x over between now and when this legislation could actually pass, are 100% doing so in bad faith.

First we preach that we don't want ignorance. Then it is okay to be ignorant. Guess we are okay with voters that are good with the best catch phrase. MAGA vs. GND - you'll never know the details... and they don't matter. Just trust me.

[dckingsfan]

Speaking of the absolutely idiotic tax reform passed in December, 2017, this new Section 199A subtraction causes the most involved moronic calculations ever - and they still haven't written the final regulations because the piece of shyt legislation was rushed through Congress without any thought by people who had no clue and really didn't give a f. I'm guessing Ryan's resignation was in part - because of that - he should be ashamed of it - for it's amateurism and content, frankly. I almost feel bad for people with real estate partnerships. Haaaaahahaha. Ahhhhhhh. Almost.

In terms of obfuscation, tax lawyer employment and hamstringing the IRS where they can't complete audits - it was a remarkable success.

[closg00]

Stone in the vise grip

Watch on YouTube

[Kanyewest]

Somebody else's work on the internet (unable to link by just copying and pasting)


Special Counsel Mueller recommended a 20+ year jail sentence and and a $24M fine for convicted felon Paul Manafort.[1] Trump Campaign Chairman and convicted felon Paul Manafort[2] was closely associated with Russian Oligarch Oleg Deripaska. Deripaska gave Manafort a $10 million loan.[3] Konstantin Kilimnik was reportedly the liaison between Manafort and Deripaska when Manafort worked in Ukraine. Kilimnik met with the Trump Campaign Chairman Manafort and Deputy Campaign Chairman Gates on August 2nd 2016. According to Andrew Weissman, a prosecutor on Special Counsel Mueller's team, the meeting is “very much to the heart of what the special counsel’s office is investigating."[4] Convicted felon Paul Manafort has broken his plea deal[5] Furthermore, last month the Trump administration removed sanctions from Oleg Deripaska's companies.[6]

Videos recorded by an escort show Deripaska meeting Russian Deputy Prime Minister Prikhodko on a yacht 1 month after email correspondence between Manafort and Deripaska was established during the 2016 Trump Campaign.[7] The escort was detained in a Thai prison, plead not guilty but her minor immigration case has turned into a serious criminal case carrying 10 years in prison.[8] A high level Russian security official visited Thailand when she was detained.[9] The model was deported to Moscow and has been detained by the Russian authorities.[10]

Paul Manafort offered to give Russian billionaire Oleg Deripaska private briefings on the campaign trail.[11] Paul Manafort used a campaign account for the email correspondence.[12] In 2006 Paul Manafort offered a deal to Russian Oligarch Deripaska, Manafort expressed that he would offer a great service in pushing Putin's policies abroad. He was paid very handsomely by Deripaska.[13]

[Manafort]: “We are now of the belief that this model can greatly benefit the Putin Government if employed at the correct levels with the appropriate commitment to success,” Manafort wrote in the 2005 memo to Deripaska. The effort, Manafort wrote, “will be offering a great service that can re-focus, both internally and externally, the policies of the Putin government.”

A few months ago a Republican lobbyist, an associate of Paul Manafort and Cambridge Analytica, pleaded guilty to charges of violating the Foreign Agents Registration Act and is cooperating with Special Counsel Mueller.[14] Like convicted felon Paul Manafort, Sam Patten worked closely with former Russian spy Konstantin Kilimnik. Special Counsel Mueller has indicted Kilimnik in his role with witness tampering in the Manafort case.[15]

When Paul Manafort had resigned as campaign manager on the Trump campaign his protege and longtime partner Rick Gates continued to work with the Trump campaign. Gates was in contact with Person A, who is former Russian intelligence officer Kilimnik, weeks before the election.[16] Alex van der Zwaan pleaded guilty to lying to investigators, he lied to Special Counsel Mueller about contact he had with Rick Gates and Person A. Van der Zwaan was sentenced to 30 days in prison[17] Kilimnik served as a liaison between Manafort and Deripaska. Manafort had previously denied communicating with Russian intelligence, he lied.[18]

────────

1) Fox News - Mueller recommends Paul Manafort be sentenced to 19.5-24.5 years in prison and $24M fine - Memphis Fox affiliate. I've been waiting 3 hours and there has been no Fox News article about this major development

2) Fox News - Paul Manafort pleads guilty, agrees to cooperate in deal with Mueller team

3) Reuters - Manafort had $10 million loan from Russian oligarch: court filing

4) Washington Post - How Manafort’s 2016 meeting with a Russian employee at New York cigar club goes to ‘the heart’ of Mueller’s probe

5) Fox News - Judge rules Manafort 'intentionally' lied to Mueller team, voiding plea agreement

6) New York Times - Deripaska and Allies Could Benefit From Sanctions Deal, Document Shows

7) Telegraph - Oligarch met with top Russian official after Trump aide 'offered briefings'

8) New York Times - She Gambled on Her Claim to Link Russians and Trump. She Is Losing.

9) Washington Post - A self-described sex expert says she will spill information on Trump and Russia to get out of a Thai jail

10) BBC - Nastya Rybka: Russia seizes model who made Trump collusion claim

11) Washington Post - Manafort offered to give Russian billionaire ‘private briefings’ on 2016 campaign

12) Politico - Manafort used Trump campaign account to email Ukrainian operative

13) Associated Press - AP Exclusive: Before Trump job, Manafort worked to aid Putin

14) Bloomberg - Manafort Ally to Cooperate With U.S. After Guilty Plea

15) Fox News - Mueller files new charges against Manafort, associate

16) Fox News - Mueller: Rick Gates communicated with person connected to Russian intel service in 2016

17) CNBC - First sentencing in Mueller probe: Dutch lawyer Alex van der Zwaan gets 30 days in prison, $20,000 in fines

18) Washington Post - Manafort associate had Russian intelligence ties during 2016 campaign, prosecutors say

[Kanyewest]

While Mueller has recommended 24 years for Manafort we also learned more about the Roger Stone case today.

Special Counsel Mueller's prosecutors have evidence that Russian military intelligence officers interacted directly with Roger Stone. Over the course of the investigation into Russian election hacking the government obtained and executed dozens of search warrants. Several of those search warrants were executed on accounts that contained Stone’s communications with Guccifer 2.0 and Wikileaks.[1]

Certain Netyksho defendants, through a fictitious online persona they created, Guccifer 2.0, also interacted directly with Stone concerning other stolen materials posted separately online.

...As alleged in the Netyksho indictment, in 2016, the Netyksho defendants stole documents from the DNC, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, and the Clinton campaign chairman. Those defendants then released many of the stolen documents, including through a website maintained by Organization 1. In the course of investigating that activity, the government obtained and executed dozens of search warrants on various accounts used to facilitate the transfer of stolen documents for release, as well as to discuss the timing and promotion of their release. Several of those search warrants were executed on accounts that contained Stone’s communications with Guccifer 2.0 and with Organization 1. Evidence obtained from those search warrants resulted in the allegations that the Netyksho defendants hacked and stole documents for release through intermediaries, including Organization 1, and that Stone lied to a congressional committee investigating, among other things, the activities of Organization 1 regarding those stolen documents. The relevant search warrants, which are being produced to the defendant in discovery in this case, are discussed further in a sealed addendum to this filing.

President Trump's campaign has been directly implicated in the indictment against Roger Stone.

According to Special Counsel Mueller's indictments after July 22nd 2016 a senior Trump Campaign official was directed to contact Roger Stone for more information about Wikileaks releasing additional damaging information regarding the Clinton Campaign. Roger Stone thereafter told the Trump Campaign about potential future releases. What's interesting is that on July 27th candidate Trump looked directly at the camera and publicly asked Russia for their help in finding Hillary Clinton's 30,000 missing emails.[2] Special Counsel Mueller's indictment against 12 Russian Intelligence Officers found that on or around July 27 2016 Russian hackers known as Guccifer 2.0 hacked the Clinton campaign.

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. ROGER JASON STONE, JR.[3]

4. ROGER JASON STONE, JR. was a political consultant who worked for decades in U.S. politics and on U.S. political campaigns. STONE was an official on the U.S. presidential campaign of Donald J. Trump (“Trump Campaign”) until in or around August 2015, and maintained regular contact with and publicly supported the Trump Campaign through the 2016 election. 5.

5. During the summer of 2016, STONE spoke to senior Trump Campaign officials about Organization 1 and information it might have had that would be damaging to the Clinton Campaign. STONE was contacted by senior Trump Campaign officials to inquire about future releases by Organization 1.

11. By in or around June and July 2016, STONE informed senior Trump Campaign officials that he had information indicating Organization 1 had documents whose release would be damaging to the Clinton Campaign. The head of Organization 1 was located at all relevant times at the Ecuadorian Embassy in London, United Kingdom.

12. After the July 22, 2016 release of stolen DNC emails by Organization 1, a senior Trump Campaign official was directed to contact STONE about any additional releases and what other damaging information Organization 1 had regarding the Clinton Campaign. STONE thereafter told the Trump Campaign about potential future releases of damaging material by Organization 1.

17. On or about October 7, 2016, Organization 1 released the first set of emails stolen from the Clinton Campaign chairman. Shortly after Organization 1’s release, an associate of the high-ranking Trump Campaign official sent a text message to STONE that read “well done.” In subsequent conversations with senior Trump Campaign officials, STONE claimed credit for having correctly predicted the October 7, 2016 release.

DoJ Indictment of 12 Russian Intelligence Officers[4]

22. The Conspirators spearphished individuals affiliated with the Clinton Campaign throughout the summer of 2016. For example, on or about July 27, 2016, the Conspirators attempted after hours to spearphish for the first time email accounts at a domain hosted by a thirdparty provider and used by Clinton’s personal office. At or around the same time, they also targeted seventy-six email addresses at the domain for the Clinton Campaign.

Context: Former Trump Campaign adviser Roger Stone, Wikileaks, Guccifer 2.0, and Russian military intelligence (GRU)

During the 2016 Presidential campaign Roger Stone[5] made constant braggadocios statements about his ties to Guccifer 2.0, the DNC hacker, and Wikileaks. While Roger Stone has attempted to downplay his communication with Guccifer 2.0 he has admitted to have been in contact with the DNC hacking suspect.[6]

We also know that Special Counsel Mueller has been asking questions about whether or not President Trump knew of the hacked DNC emails before they were released and why Trump took policy positions favorable to Russia.[7] WikiLeaks should be considered an extension of Russia's 2016 disinformation campaign.[8] We know that WikiLeaks shared material hacked by the GRU.[9]

Roger Stone tried to get ahead of a potential indictment by claiming he is ready to be indicted and that the Russian collusion scandal is a hoax.[10] A report by the Wall Street Journal confirmed that Roger Stone sought damaging information on Hillary Clinton from Julian Assange during the campaign.[11]

────────

1) U.S. Department of Justice - UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. ROGER STONE, JR., GOVERNMENT’S RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT’S OBJECTION TO NOTICE OF DESIGNATION OF PENDING RELATED CRIMINAL CASE

2) New York Times - Donald Trump Calls on Russia to Find Hillary Clinton’s Missing Emails

3) U.S. Department of Justice - UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. ROGER JASON STONE, JR.

4) U.S. Justice Department Federal Indictment by a Grand Jury - 12 Russian Intelligence Officers and their role with election interference

5) New York Times - Roger Stone, the ‘Trickster’ on Trump’s Side, Is Under F.B.I. Scrutiny

6) Chicago Tribune - Ex-Trump adviser Roger Stone swapped messages with DNC hacking suspect

7) NBC - Mueller asking if Trump knew about hacked Democratic emails before release

8) Foreign Policy - WikiLeaks Turned Down Leaks on Russian Government During U.S. Presidential Campaign

9) CBS - How did WikiLeaks become associated with Russia?

10) NPR - Trump Adviser Roger Stone Says He's 'Prepared' If Indicted By Special Counsel Mueller

11) Wall Street Journal - Roger Stone Sought Information on Clinton From Assange, Emails Show

[JWizmentality]

I don’t think I’ve encountered a more hateful piece of trash than STD. And mods aren’t even going to bother giving him a warning on his **** posting. Cool, this is how you keep good posters from coming back to this thread.

I just skimmed the last 2 pages. What has STD said that is hateful? He has a valid point. All these hoaxes are getting exposed (the Russia hoax, the Smollett hoax) and none of you are saying anything about it.

This from the dude that thought pizzagate was legit.

[JWizmentality]

I don’t think I’ve encountered a more hateful piece of trash than STD. And mods aren’t even going to bother giving him a warning on his **** posting. Cool, this is how you keep good posters from coming back to this thread.

I just skimmed the last 2 pages. What has STD said that is hateful? He has a valid point. All these hoaxes are getting exposed (the Russia hoax, the Smollett hoax) and none of you are saying anything about it.

He was banned from the CA within 48 hrs of pulling his shtick there.

[stilldropin20]

I don’t think I’ve encountered a more hateful piece of trash than STD. And mods aren’t even going to bother giving him a warning on his **** posting. Cool, this is how you keep good posters from coming back to this thread.

I just skimmed the last 2 pages. What has STD said that is hateful? He has a valid point. All these hoaxes are getting exposed (the Russia hoax, the Smollett hoax) and none of you are saying anything about it.

He was banned from the CA within 48 hrs of pulling his shtick there.

wrong...i posted there for months. Many of my posts were and-1. often 5-6 and -1 per post. thoughtful posts...not the typical "trump is bad" crap that gets and-1'ed here.

At one point i mentioned the problems with world bankers. I was warned by one mod and then banned by a second mod for the exact same single post. <--Thats how the gestapo mods on realgm operate. specifically Fleet. He thinks this is his personal website. And howard mass apparently doesn't care that he has 4-5 mods throughout the site over the past 15 years that have chased all of the entertaining posters away.

But back to the bankers. They are the financiers of everything that you see, hear, touch and feel that is created by man. If its unfair? Its time to turn your ire towards the bankers. The financiers of it all. All if it is financed by bankers. No one ever uses their own money. NO ONE!! <--dont ever forget that. I was shedding light on that in the CA board because no one here wants to talk about it.

and for the rest of you...if you want to leave a mark? if you want someone to remember what you're writing about? Try "entertaining" your reader while "educating" your reader. it works.

[gtn130]

So, first is it a manifesto or real proposals. I think it is more a manifesto? But they want to be taken seriously (as in a serious proposal).

Originally, the GND was posted as needing to be done in the next 10 years. They took this down to due to the ridiculous nature of the "proposal". Getting rid of dairy, air travel and having carbon neutral housing in ten years... And that doesn't even take on the costs - which are enormous (and the answers have been disingenuous).

Because of the missteps - it has been hard to take the GND team seriously. I think the onus is now on the GND folks to break out serious proposals from their manifesto.

They can be taken seriously because the problems they're trying to solve are real and imminent, and nobody else in Congress is actually trying to accomplish anything. Centrist Democrats want incremental progress only at the behest of their donors - things like tax incentives and flex spending accounts and other bull**** that doesn't actually help anyone. Republicans are obviously evil and want fascism.

There is no vehicle for passing any progressive legislation. There is no reality in which the GND ever becomes law until maybe 2024. Nailing down all of these wonky details you're looking for is a fool's errand because they don't actually matter to voters. If there were more dckingsfans in the world then people like Howard Schultz and Bill Kristol would have a constituency - they don't.

The GND is functionally an Overton Window mover that gets people talking about what matters. The people attacking random arbitrary details in the proposal that would change 100x over between now and when this legislation could actually pass, are 100% doing so in bad faith.

First we preach that we don't want ignorance. Then it is okay to be ignorant. Guess we are okay with voters that are good with the best catch phrase. MAGA vs. GND - you'll never know the details... and they don't matter. Just trust me.

We live in a representative democracy. We don’t need to be policy experts to support policy outcomes. AOC and Bernie are fighting for policy outcomes that I want. I don’t have the time to sift through policy details to determine the impact each thing will have on the deficit or how certain carveouts will impact industry or costs.

The alternative is vote for people who don’t support the policy outcomes I want. That isn’t a reasonable alternative.

Questions for you: what are the policy outcomes you want? “Sustainable government” isn’t an answer. What services do you expect the government to provide and to what extent?

Who in politics do you support? Who would you most support in 2020?

[gtn130]

I don’t think I’ve encountered a more hateful piece of trash than STD. And mods aren’t even going to bother giving him a warning on his **** posting. Cool, this is how you keep good posters from coming back to this thread.

I just skimmed the last 2 pages. What has STD said that is hateful? He has a valid point. All these hoaxes are getting exposed (the Russia hoax, the Smollett hoax) and none of you are saying anything about it.

He was banned from the CA within 48 hrs of pulling his shtick there.

Nate already said he won’t ban SD20 because he’s a Trump supporter fighting the evil liberal echo chamber

Affirmative Action modding for conservatives. Sad!

[pancakes3]

that press conference yesterday was a doozy.

[nate33]

I don’t think I’ve encountered a more hateful piece of trash than STD. And mods aren’t even going to bother giving him a warning on his **** posting. Cool, this is how you keep good posters from coming back to this thread.

I just skimmed the last 2 pages. What has STD said that is hateful? He has a valid point. All these hoaxes are getting exposed (the Russia hoax, the Smollett hoax) and none of you are saying anything about it.

This from the dude that thought pizzagate was legit.

I never said pizzagate was legit. I said something weird was going on. There were coded messages in those Podesta emails. But it was far from certain that those coded messages referred to a child pornography ring.

[stilldropin20]

They can be taken seriously because the problems they're trying to solve are real and imminent, and nobody else in Congress is actually trying to accomplish anything. Centrist Democrats want incremental progress only at the behest of their donors - things like tax incentives and flex spending accounts and other bull**** that doesn't actually help anyone. Republicans are obviously evil and want fascism.

There is no vehicle for passing any progressive legislation. There is no reality in which the GND ever becomes law until maybe 2024. Nailing down all of these wonky details you're looking for is a fool's errand because they don't actually matter to voters. If there were more dckingsfans in the world then people like Howard Schultz and Bill Kristol would have a constituency - they don't.

The GND is functionally an Overton Window mover that gets people talking about what matters. The people attacking random arbitrary details in the proposal that would change 100x over between now and when this legislation could actually pass, are 100% doing so in bad faith.

First we preach that we don't want ignorance. Then it is okay to be ignorant. Guess we are okay with voters that are good with the best catch phrase. MAGA vs. GND - you'll never know the details... and they don't matter. Just trust me.

We live in a representative democracy. We don’t need to be policy experts to support policy outcomes. AOC and Bernie are fighting for policy outcomes that I want. I don’t have the time to sift through policy details to determine the impact each thing will have on the deficit or how certain carveouts will impact industry or costs.

The alternative is vote for people who don’t support the policy outcomes I want. That isn’t a reasonable alternative.

Questions for you: what are the policy outcomes you want? “Sustainable government” isn’t an answer. What services do you expect the government to provide and to what extent?

Who in politics do you support? Who would you most support in 2020?

fair post. not addressed to me but maybe we all should answer this question: What do you want from government?

Here's what i want:

1. I dont mind a fight but I want as fair a fight as possible.
2. I want as level a playing field.
3. i dont want to play by a certain set of rules for 50-150 years (2-3 generations) and then have the rules changed on my family that has been "fighting" for their piece of the american dream by a certain set of rules and then have the rules changed on them.


^^^so let's unpack that. What is a fair fight? Is it fair that some family came here 400 years ago...put in 18 hour days for generations...plowed the land...fed the animals...fed other americans...bought goods...paid the taxes(tariffs) on those goods so as to grow america...and some other kid from (anywhere in the world) come here today...and get the exact same lifestyle as a family that has been here for 400 years making this country so great??? Making this country the greatest country in the world? This economy the stongest? The land here worth so much??? Is that fair to those families???

I dont think so.

Sometimes family goes through generation after generation after generation of struggle...before their "heirs" experience some success...maybe they finally have some land to enjoy...because great great great great grandpa took a loan out 200-300-400 years ago...worked the land for 18 hours per day...maybe that land was't worth that much until now...400 years later...maybe that land never rendered any kind of relevant "cash flow" until recently...maybe generation after generation after generation...woke early...worked the farm...did the chores...while living in relative poverty...almost squalor...a dirty old house...dirty clothes...minimal education because they had to work the land...

So what I'm saying is that almost every single one of us was a peasant or came from peasants at some point...and only a couple handful's of people experience "lightening in a bottle" get rich quick. Statistically its the rarest of anomalies.

^^^and i got no problem taxing the living daylight out of the UBer billionaires, the yahoo billionaires, the facebook billionaires, Bezos, and even the trumps....they dont deserve it. they really dont. There was not network of telephone line to lie down over generations. no cable. no elelctric lines. no gas lines to install in every home in america. No satellites to launch...so they dont really create jobs.

So I would tax these "over night" internet(application) billionaires by at least 50%(real tax rate) but preferably 70-80%...especially if their families weren't here for multiple generations for 200 plus years.

I mean how fair is it to the family that worked to make America's economy the strongest in the entire world. Our middle class the wealthiest. and even our poor have $1000.00 iphones...how great is that? Well...its all build upon generations of hard work and innovation and a strong military...which was all paid for by american tax dollars for generations.

So i believe those families that have been here (and working and/or paying taxes) for 200-300-400-500-600(native) years or more deserve more opportunity than those that just arrived yesterday.

--I believe those that have been here in the US and have been working poor for hundreds of years deserve more opportunity than someone who has been "wealthy" the entire time.

that said...2 poor people from poor families that have been poor the entire time...should have the exact same opportunity. 2 wealthy people should also have the exact same opportunity.

So i want to see policies where:

1. the elite's are taxed more regardless of how "old the money." (50% inheritance tax that includes foundations, non profits, etc)

2. I especially want to see the nouveau (application) billionaires that are not creating jobs are taxed very harshly. 70-80% taxation.

3. I want to see elite equity taxed(over $20 million)...and any type of loans taken against equity needs to treated as income.

4. I want to see all the carve out and loophole completely erased for old wealth (75 years or older of wealth)...which is about 2 generations.

5. i dont mind some loop holes and carveouts remain in place for middle class folks to become millionaires. <--I think that is the whole idea behind america where a kid can grow up...work hard...and become a millionaire....but once he/she becomes worth $20 million or more it become unamerican to me.

6. And most importantly, i want to see poor/out of work people become working poor and middle class. even upper middle class. I want those pathways open.<--that's literally what "america" should stand for...that's the whole idea behind MAGA.

so in that regard...I'm talking an identification process where we identify which families have been here 200-300-400 years and more and are still poor/working poor. We especially identify which families are decedents of former slaves or native americans and we the tax payers pay to put those children in the best local schools on all levels for free. bus kids out of ghettos, provide nice section 8 housing and food and monthly stipend if necessary to ensure success...call it reparations. And I'm talking the best high schools, colleges, doctorate programs, law shools, etc. They must take the necessary clases and exams and get the appropriate grades...but if they do they are automatically accepted into what program they apply and give employers a declaration to hire those kids. and do the exact same thing for the poor white kids whose families never caught a break while being here 200-300-400 years and more. Exact same for brown kids. <--do that for 50years (about 2 generations) and then end the policy. This will give everyone a "fair shake" at the biggest piece of the american pie that they can achieve.

Tax the elites and large corporations to pay for it.

I also believe strongly in tariffs to pay for everything. we could pay down our entire debt/deficit in 10 years or less with a 50% tariff on all goods shipped into the US.

I also want to untie (investment) banking from small business where a small business become a chain large business over night where investment bankers financing and then end up owning 70-80-90% of the newly created massive business.

I want less monopolies. Less massive businesses. and more small business. Right now...55% of america is employed by small business. that number used to be 75%. It would be 95%.

Frankly, we just dont need billionaires and we dont need large businesses. I'd rather see a bunch of small businesses and some medium sized businesses.

I'd prefer to see universities perform R and D insrtead of large buinesses where small and medium sized business can manufacture goods based on R n D performed at universities. <--everyone would win. including universites who could fund free college for all by selling rights to such R and D to small and medium businesses instead of large businesses conducting it themselves and being rewarded with tax breaks for their R n D.

[stilldropin20]

I just skimmed the last 2 pages. What has STD said that is hateful? He has a valid point. All these hoaxes are getting exposed (the Russia hoax, the Smollett hoax) and none of you are saying anything about it.

This from the dude that thought pizzagate was legit.

I never said pizzagate was legit. I said something weird was going on. There were coded messages in those Podesta emails. But it was far from certain that those coded messages referred to a child pornography ring.

jeffrey epstein really had an airplane, and a boat, and a property in the Caribbean where he had underaged children perform sex acts on him and his guests.

From 2002 -2005 Bill Clinton was a regular on epstein's plane at epstein's island which all were greater than 12 nautical miles from US soil and out of reach of US laws.

Epstein paid large amounts of money to the Clinton foundations while hillary was in and running for office as NY senator and reportedly blackmailed many people (possibly) including Bill Clinton/(HRC) for future "favors" in return for not exposing Bill Clinton. Along the way...as Epstein was blackmailing the wealthy and powerful...he was exposed for his evil deeds. And tried for rape, assault, and molestation of minors.

Epstein trial was a joke. and he was allowed to settle out of court with the victims with is then underage and was released on house arrest and allowed to travel from home to home while on house arrest.

Bill Clinton ditched his secret service detail on all of these trips to epstein island, and on epstein's plane, and boat.

So...while i never went down the full "pizza gate" rabbit hole. The fact remains that the wealthy elite are exposing our politicians to very politically harmful and often evil/illegal deeds like affairs (including with minors) so as to black mail our politicians for future gain...<<<and that's the "good" part of the story. The bad part of the story is that some of these politicians are awful human beings on their own and dont need to be balckmailed into these evil deeds. They commit these crimes against humanity on their own.