The LeBron Thread (merged)

[Kilroy]

I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. It's similar to the things we always hear about "killer instinct", "the look in his eyes", "clutch gene". All those things are subjective and cannot be measured. When you look at the numbers, LeBron has taken more shots and has a better percentage than both Kobe and Jordan.

Again I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT NUMBERS. and when we talk about killer instinct and such you either have it or you don’t.

But since you are a numbers guy find out how many times has Lebron pass the ball in clutch situations vs Kobe or Mike?

Killer instinct is a platitude that people resort to when the numbers aren't on your side. Does a player have "killer instinct" when he goes 5-22 on late game shots like Kobe did, instead of 12-23 like LeBron? Does a player have "killer instinct" if he forces up bad shots at the end of games instead of making the smart basketball play? LeBron showed plenty of "killer instinct" when he dropped 41 in back to back games in route to a 3-1 comeback against the 73-win Warriors in 2016.

If all you think Kobe and MJ did to be considered clutch is force up bad shots at the end of basketball games, you have no idea what you're talking about and your arguments are boring.
"Late game shots" is the problem... It's a faulty definition, created to suite the construct.
If you think being the best player on the court and passing up an open shot at time runs down in a playoff game, is a smart basketball play, again... Boring, baseless argument...

Just because LeBron passed the ball, doesn't make it the smart play... A pass can be stupid too... Worse, it can be cowardly.
LeBron has a history of passing the ball in crucial situations when he, as the stats you and his supporters have presented here prove, was more qualified than anyone on the team to take that shot...

He's got that Kershaw post season gene... He can do it, but isn't super comfortable doing it, and tries to avoid it when possible...

That's not what MJ and Kobe did... They lived for those opportunities... As did Bird... If Lebron played with those guys, I'd expect his ass to pass to them as time wound down... But since he doesn't, I want his ass to carry my team to victory... It's his job as a "GOAT" candidate...

[dAdo dA dEvil]

Killer instinct is a platitude that people resort to when the numbers aren't on your side. Does a player have "killer instinct" when he goes 5-22 on late game shots like Kobe did, instead of 12-23 like LeBron? Does a player have "killer instinct" if he forces up bad shots at the end of games instead of making the smart basketball play? LeBron showed plenty of "killer instinct" when he dropped 41 in back to back games in route to a 3-1 comeback against the 73-win Warriors in 2016.

41 is your measure for killer instinct? I don't know what to kall Kobe's 81 anymore. Wait, add up to the list when he outscored the whole Mavericks in 3 quarters.

In the Finals, driving the greatest comeback in NBA history? Followed by a triple-double with one of the most iconic defensive plays in NBA history, on the road, in Game 7, against the defending champion? Absolutely. If that's not subjective, narrative-driven "killer instinct," it does not exist.

I'm sorry but I'm not sold with that championship. The suspension of Draymond greatly affected the momentum of that game. For me, the suspension is a bit too much as LeBron was also playing "dirty". Intentionally hurting opponents and also floppping - yeah, that also separate him from MJ and Kobe - Both are never floppers (most old school players never were).

[Sedale Threatt]

41 is your measure for killer instinct? I don't know what to kall Kobe's 81 anymore. Wait, add up to the list when he outscored the whole Mavericks in 3 quarters.

In the Finals, driving the greatest comeback in NBA history? Followed by a triple-double with one of the most iconic defensive plays in NBA history, on the road, in Game 7, against the defending champion? Absolutely. If that's not subjective, narrative-driven "killer instinct," it does not exist.

I'm sorry but I'm not sold with that championship. The suspension of Draymond greatly affected the momentum of that game. For me, the suspension is a bit too much as LeBron was also playing "dirty". Intentionally hurting opponents and also floppping - yeah, that also separate him from MJ and Kobe - Both are never floppers (most old school players never were).

What does any of that have to do with the subject at hand? Those were must-win championship games, and he dominated. Players who lack "killer instinct" or whatever other subjective label connoting the will and ability to step up in critical moments don't do that.

[Sedale Threatt]

Just because LeBron passed the ball, doesn't make it the smart play... A pass can be stupid too... Worse, it can be cowardly. LeBron has a history of passing the ball in crucial situations when he, as the stats you and his supporters have presented here prove, was more qualified than anyone on the team to take that shot...

He does? I want to hear more about this.

I mean, he's played more than 200 playoff games, so to argue that he hasn't made poor decisions at times, or failed to perform, would be foolish. But to argue that he's made a consistent habit of giving up the ball is also foolish.

So is the Kershaw comparison. We have indisputable, statistical proof that Kershaw craps the bed in the playoffs, at which point his career ERA almost DOUBLES while winning just 9 of 24 starts. Yikes...

LeBron, on the other hand, gets better. More minutes, more points, more rebounds and slightly better PER while his assists and true-shooting percentage maintain.

This is not the profile of a player who shrinks from the big stage.

[thebigbird]

Again I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT NUMBERS. and when we talk about killer instinct and such you either have it or you don’t.

But since you are a numbers guy find out how many times has Lebron pass the ball in clutch situations vs Kobe or Mike?

Killer instinct is a platitude that people resort to when the numbers aren't on your side. Does a player have "killer instinct" when he goes 5-22 on late game shots like Kobe did, instead of 12-23 like LeBron? Does a player have "killer instinct" if he forces up bad shots at the end of games instead of making the smart basketball play? LeBron showed plenty of "killer instinct" when he dropped 41 in back to back games in route to a 3-1 comeback against the 73-win Warriors in 2016.

If all you think Kobe and MJ did to be considered clutch is force up bad shots at the end of basketball games, you have no idea what you're talking about and your arguments are boring.
"Late game shots" is the problem... It's a faulty definition, created to suite the construct.
If you think being the best player on the court and passing up an open shot at time runs down in a playoff game, is a smart basketball play, again... Boring, baseless argument...

Just because LeBron passed the ball, doesn't make it the smart play... A pass can be stupid too... Worse, it can be cowardly.
LeBron has a history of passing the ball in crucial situations when he, as the stats you and his supporters have presented here prove, was more qualified than anyone on the team to take that shot...

He's got that Kershaw post season gene... He can do it, but isn't super comfortable doing it, and tries to avoid it when possible...

That's not what MJ and Kobe did... They lived for those opportunities... As did Bird... If Lebron played with those guys, I'd expect his ass to pass to them as time wound down... But since he doesn't, I want his ass to carry my team to victory... It's his job as a "GOAT" candidate...

LeBron averages more ppg in elimination games than anyone else in NBA history. More than Jordan. More than Kobe. More than Wilt. More than every player that has ever played in the NBA. It doesn't get more clutch than that. Elimination games are the ultimate do or die, and he's better in them than anyone else, ever. He has more playoff buzzer beaters than Jordan and Kobe combined. The argument that he doesn't have killer instinct or isn't clutch is absolute nonsense.

[thebigbird]

Again I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT NUMBERS. and when we talk about killer instinct and such you either have it or you don’t.

But since you are a numbers guy find out how many times has Lebron pass the ball in clutch situations vs Kobe or Mike?

Killer instinct is a platitude that people resort to when the numbers aren't on your side. Does a player have "killer instinct" when he goes 5-22 on late game shots like Kobe did, instead of 12-23 like LeBron? Does a player have "killer instinct" if he forces up bad shots at the end of games instead of making the smart basketball play? LeBron showed plenty of "killer instinct" when he dropped 41 in back to back games in route to a 3-1 comeback against the 73-win Warriors in 2016.

41 is your measure for killer instinct? I don't know what to kall Kobe's 81 anymore. Wait, add up to the list when he outscored the whole Mavericks in 3 quarters.

Oh wow, he scored 81 points in a meaningless regular season game. Wow! LeBron scored 41 in back to back games when facing elimination against the best team in NBA history. When the lights are brightest LeBron is at his best. You can't say the same thing about Kobe.

[TyCobb]

5 rings

[iamworthy]

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[dAdo dA dEvil]

Killer instinct is a platitude that people resort to when the numbers aren't on your side. Does a player have "killer instinct" when he goes 5-22 on late game shots like Kobe did, instead of 12-23 like LeBron? Does a player have "killer instinct" if he forces up bad shots at the end of games instead of making the smart basketball play? LeBron showed plenty of "killer instinct" when he dropped 41 in back to back games in route to a 3-1 comeback against the 73-win Warriors in 2016.

41 is your measure for killer instinct? I don't know what to kall Kobe's 81 anymore. Wait, add up to the list when he outscored the whole Mavericks in 3 quarters.

Oh wow, he scored 81 points in a meaningless regular season game. Wow! LeBron scored 41 in back to back games when facing elimination against the best team in NBA history. When the lights are brightest LeBron is at his best. You can't say the same thing about Kobe.

Uhmm... Kobe has 5 rings. Winning championships with a team that's probably less talented than LeBron's.

[dockingsched]

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It’s crazy how these charts always show the same thing since his rookie year, that advanced stats think Brandon Ingram is terrible.

[TwoStarz]

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It’s crazy how these charts always show the same thing since his rookie year, that advanced stats think Brandon Ingram is terrible.

and It coincides with the eye test. Gave him a pass his first year but nothing about his game has ever screamed 'good' or 'great' player

[iamworthy]

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It’s crazy how these charts always show the same thing since his rookie year, that advanced stats think Brandon Ingram is terrible.

I was so focused on LeBron being so far out ahead of everyone I didn't even notice Ingram. But now that I see him

[thebigbird]

41 is your measure for killer instinct? I don't know what to kall Kobe's 81 anymore. Wait, add up to the list when he outscored the whole Mavericks in 3 quarters.

Oh wow, he scored 81 points in a meaningless regular season game. Wow! LeBron scored 41 in back to back games when facing elimination against the best team in NBA history. When the lights are brightest LeBron is at his best. You can't say the same thing about Kobe.

Uhmm... Kobe has 5 rings. Winning championships with a team that's probably less talented than LeBron's.

Three of those rings were with prime Shaq. LeBron never played with anyone even close to as good as prime Shaq.

[thebigbird]

Kobe goes 6-24 in game 7 of an NBA finals: "clutch"; "killer instinct"; "will to win"; "mamba mentality"

LeBron puts up 37/12/4 on 70 TS% in game 7 of an NBA finals: "LeChoke"; "bailed out by Ray Allen"

It's a complete joke. LeBron is more clutch than Kobe Bryant and the numbers prove it. If anyone had numbers to show that Kobe was more clutch then they would absolutely use them. But they don't, so they rely on platitudes or ring counting.

[Kilroy]

Kobe goes 6-24 in game 7 of an NBA finals: "clutch"; "killer instinct"; "will to win"; "mamba mentality"

LeBron puts up 37/12/4 on 70 TS% in game 7 of an NBA finals: "LeChoke"; "bailed out by Ray Allen"

It's a complete joke. LeBron is more clutch than Kobe Bryant and the numbers prove it. If anyone had numbers to show that Kobe was more clutch then they would absolutely use them. But they don't, so they rely on platitudes or ring counting.

Yes, by an extremely self-serving, limited, cherry-picked definition of "Clutch"... LeBron is "More Clutch" than Kobe Bryant...

Congratulations, you won! A competition of one... Which is ironically the kind of competition LeBron is traditionally, most comfortable with.

[Jedi32]

Oh wow, he scored 81 points in a meaningless regular season game. Wow! LeBron scored 41 in back to back games when facing elimination against the best team in NBA history. When the lights are brightest LeBron is at his best. You can't say the same thing about Kobe.

Uhmm... Kobe has 5 rings. Winning championships with a team that's probably less talented than LeBron's.

Three of those rings were with prime Shaq. LeBron never played with anyone even close to as good as prime Shaq.

And Kobe never had a second or third option as good as prime Wade or Bosh. So what’s the problem?

[RamonSessions7]

The real loser in the bron vs Kobe debate is everyone. Why, in any way, does it matter?

[thebigbird]

Kobe goes 6-24 in game 7 of an NBA finals: "clutch"; "killer instinct"; "will to win"; "mamba mentality"

LeBron puts up 37/12/4 on 70 TS% in game 7 of an NBA finals: "LeChoke"; "bailed out by Ray Allen"

It's a complete joke. LeBron is more clutch than Kobe Bryant and the numbers prove it. If anyone had numbers to show that Kobe was more clutch then they would absolutely use them. But they don't, so they rely on platitudes or ring counting.

Yes, by an extremely self-serving, limited, cherry-picked definition of "Clutch"... LeBron is "More Clutch" than Kobe Bryant...

Congratulations, you won! A competition of one... Which is ironically the kind of competition LeBron is traditionally, most comfortable with.

Numbers compiled over a span of 24 elimination games is a "self-serving, limited, cherry-picked" definition of clutch? It doesn't get more do-or-die than an elimination game, and LeBron has been the best player in NBA history in elimination games. He raises his already historically great play in those games. Since the 2011 NBA Finals, Lebron has faced elimination 16 times. In those 16 games, he is 12-4. His averages in those games? 35.6/11.6/7.6.

In his career, LeBron has faced elimination 24 times. He is 14-10 in those games. He averages 33.7/10.8/7.5 in those games. Not only does he average more points than anyone else in NBA history in elimination games, but he also is more efficient. His TS% is higher than all of the 12 greatest players in NBA history, per Bill Simmons’s Hall of Fame Pyramid in 2010’s The Book of Basketball.

How do some other greats do in elimination games?

Jordan: 31.3/7.9/7, 53.7 TS%, 6-7 record.

Kobe: 22.3/5.8/3.5, 50.3 TS%, 9-10 record.

Duncan: 22.3/11.5/2.8, 54 TS%, 8-13 record.

Magic: 20.6/8/12.3, 56.2 TS%, 6-7 record.

Kareem: 25.3/12.2/3.8, 55.2 TS%, 11-12 record.

Anyone who argues that LeBron is not clutch or doesn't have a "killer instinct" is lying.

[danfantastk32]

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It’s crazy how these charts always show the same thing since his rookie year, that advanced stats think Brandon Ingram is terrible.

and It coincides with the eye test. Gave him a pass his first year but nothing about his game has ever screamed 'good' or 'great' player

Sorry to pile on....but his 3 seasons have been full 28-30+ mpg seasons to boot. The guy has had his chance to wow, and it's not there. He's been given more than a fair opportunity.

OF COURSE I WANT him to be great.....why would you as a Laker fan? The first 2 years, I was incredibly high on the guy. He has alot of things he can do. He may someday be a great player. And if nothing else....I'd want him to be really good for a 1-1 trade for AD, right? I mean there's no 'hate' on the guy.

But this is year 3....and it's the same ol. It just isn't piecing together, and the PER is like bottom 75%. Not what you wanted out of the #2 pick. For those that hate on Magic, and him wanting to bring in big-names......We sat through a massive rebuild, and got alot of picks....and I'd say Kuz (number 28ish....something a playoff team could easily have) is the best out of everything we ever got (don't give me D'angelo as a backup injury option allstar from the East bs)......with D'angelo prob number 2. And that's not a compliment to D'angelo....more an indictment of the others.

D'angelo, Randle, Ingram, Ball.....alot of "role player" lookin dudes, if you ask me.

Here's to hoping we get a max guy this offseason......cause I think the 'rebuild' thing turned out to be a total lemon. Sad

[Danny Darko]

were the sources on this magnificent report posters on this board?

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