Has Lebron always been this whiny dude that doesn't take accountability for himself/failures?

[Bankai]

Tried to get Erik Spoelstra fired, got David Blatt fired, and now on his way in getting Luke Walton fired. LeBron is a coach killer.

[so_bored]

Lebron improved the Cavs by how much from last year to this year and when he was in his prime? Bird had a great franchise and played alongside better players.

And he was the best player from at minimum 08 and has won the PC board's player of the year every year including last. He's absolutely dominated the NBA and your favorite team for a decade.

Not even planning to use actual stats but this isn't close:

http://bkref.com/tiny/mLEm6

Edit: Was bored so checked, this was after 2017, so not even including last year. The PC board's top 100 project has Bird 10th and Lebron 3rd. Lebron since added some accolades:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1573442

You're free to that opinion, but it's a vast vast minority. And doesn't really hold against objective measures.

No offense, but the GB rankings are no where near close to the full representation of what the public thinks. For example, during kobe's 2009 run to the title, he was called the best player in the NBA by multiple commentators, coaches and fans alike. Just because the GB poll had it that he was "minimum" since 08, doesn't really hold much water as a "vast majority".

LeBron going back to the Cavs and improving their win total has to be taken into context, he joined another top 20 player and traded for another top 20 NBA player. Yea the team was going to improve and make the playoffs, it wasn't close to the depleted roster a young kyrie had to try and carry. This year, again total roster turnover and Kevin love has been injured most of the year. Last year in no way shape and form LeBron was the best player in the NBA, say what you want about Durant and his "snake ways" but he took LeBron's lunch money in the finals.

When Bird joined the celtics, they were in full rebuild mode. He played with some great players, but so did LeBron. Objective measures with out context are really fun, because for me now Boban is the GOAT.

That's not the GB. Also, it's not even just the PC board. It's pretty much everyone.


Also when Lebron joined the Cavs they were totally decrepit the first time. His first 6 seasons were a wasteland.

Quick google:

https://www.slamonline.com/nba/slams-top-100-players-of-all-time-lebron-james-no-2/
Lebron 2 Bird 10

https://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/ranking-the-25-greatest-players-in-nba-history-100716
Lebron 2 Bird 9

https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time

Lebron 3 Bird 7

Bird over Lebron isn't really a close call, that's a vast minority opinion. There's some severe underrating of Lebron

As said though it's your ranking, and I'm not even a Lebron fan. But he's gotta be there, and that's a general concensus thing.

Also the Boban for Goat doesn't hold up. His numbers aren't that good.

Except none of this really holds up. Your second sentence is entirely false and tbh I've learned to not debate with anyone who uses a derogatory nickname for a player. Seems a rather easy giveaway

Like whatever you said really holds up. Stats aren't everything and it's absolutely true Lebron is the biggest stat padder there is. Also, good for you, stay retired bud.

I will. Would recommend if you want discussion don't start with the weird nicknames. Or call people bud.

Don' tell people what to do. I don't want any discussion with a blind Lequeen homer and I don't spend my life here like some people do.

[bondom34]

No offense, but the GB rankings are no where near close to the full representation of what the public thinks. For example, during kobe's 2009 run to the title, he was called the best player in the NBA by multiple commentators, coaches and fans alike. Just because the GB poll had it that he was "minimum" since 08, doesn't really hold much water as a "vast majority".

LeBron going back to the Cavs and improving their win total has to be taken into context, he joined another top 20 player and traded for another top 20 NBA player. Yea the team was going to improve and make the playoffs, it wasn't close to the depleted roster a young kyrie had to try and carry. This year, again total roster turnover and Kevin love has been injured most of the year. Last year in no way shape and form LeBron was the best player in the NBA, say what you want about Durant and his "snake ways" but he took LeBron's lunch money in the finals.

When Bird joined the celtics, they were in full rebuild mode. He played with some great players, but so did LeBron. Objective measures with out context are really fun, because for me now Boban is the GOAT.

That's not the GB. Also, it's not even just the PC board. It's pretty much everyone.


Also when Lebron joined the Cavs they were totally decrepit the first time. His first 6 seasons were a wasteland.

Quick google:

https://www.slamonline.com/nba/slams-top-100-players-of-all-time-lebron-james-no-2/
Lebron 2 Bird 10

https://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/ranking-the-25-greatest-players-in-nba-history-100716
Lebron 2 Bird 9

https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time

Lebron 3 Bird 7

Bird over Lebron isn't really a close call, that's a vast minority opinion. There's some severe underrating of Lebron

As said though it's your ranking, and I'm not even a Lebron fan. But he's gotta be there, and that's a general concensus thing.

Also the Boban for Goat doesn't hold up. His numbers aren't that good.

Like whatever you said really holds up. Stats aren't everything and it's absolutely true Lebron is the biggest stat padder there is. Also, good for you, stay retired bud.

I will. Would recommend if you want discussion don't start with the weird nicknames. Or call people bud.

Don' tell people what to do. I don't want any discussion with a blind Lequeen homer and I don't spend my life here like some people do.

Uh..OK? Have a good one man.

[Baski]

To be fair he has to do a lot of heavy lifting.

Yestedsy Ingram and Kuzma were great but the D was completely off. Don't get me wrong, Lebron himself has really fallen off there but it's obviously all across the board.

Throwing teammates under the bus isn't a new theme for all time great players. Right or wrong, it has happened a lot. Kobe, MJ, Shaq...

I don't recall MJ doing it through the media though (at least not very often). MJ could clearly be a big time ahole behind the scenes.... but I always remember him taking the blame as a team after losses when talking to the media. Granted, I remember the 2nd threepeat (I was in college then) more vividly and MJ had really mastered the PR game by then.

Lebron is probably a much nicer dude than MJ, but then again I think people prefer it when you call them out to their face.

Yeah I agree but MJ did say..

“We’re beating a lot of poor teams. So what? We won a lot of games last year, too. Will Horace and Bill still be playing at this level in the playoffs…Can Pip keep it up?”

“I hate being out there with those garbage men. They don’t get you the ball.”

“It’s probably a twelve-day. He needs two days to wake up.” – Michael on a ten-day contract teammate

“He was scared in there and panicking. He just lost it when Stockton scored.” – Michael on B.J. Armstrong’s mental fragility”

Lmao. Another MJ myth bites the dust

[Baski]

He made the Finals out of the EC though. I give Kobe & TD more credit for making the Finals out of the WC 7 & 6 times...while winning it 5 times. Lebron's has a losing record in the playoffs against WC teams.

Everyone is aware that the east isn’t as strong but he made the finals 8 straight seasons and won 3 titles. And the season before the streak his Cavs team won 60 games with Mo Williams as the 2nd best players.

So what numbers are you looking for before you’re going to concede that he’s a winner? 8 finals and 7 titles? 8 titles? 9 titles??? Or is he automatically a loser because he was in the weaker conference? Is thst how it works?

Not sure how people are going to spin his track record into losing but they certainly seem to be giving it a shot these days. As ridiculous as that notion is. Even Laker fans such as yourself can’t appreciate his greatness. Too funny

Lakers Kobe fans especially don't like him because they're insecure about Kobe.

[Baski]

I always thought you were a better poster than saying stuff like this.

Irving and Love played a total of zero combined playoff games before Bron became their teammate. So are you saying they were better players when their teams sucked? Bron made them worse by helping them win a title and turn their loser reputations into that of a winner?

That guy only recently started this crusade of badmouthing LeBron in every thread. Dunno what triggered it. Maybe one too many "LeBron is better than Curry" posts.

[Baski]

Everyone is aware that the east isn’t as strong but he made the finals 8 straight seasons and won 3 titles. And the season before the streak his Cavs team won 60 games with Mo Williams as the 2nd best players.

So what numbers are you looking for before you’re going to concede that he’s a winner? 8 finals and 7 titles? 8 titles? 9 titles??? Or is he automatically a loser because he was in the weaker conference? Is thst how it works?

Not sure how people are going to spin his track record into losing but they certainly seem to be giving it a shot these days. As ridiculous as that notion is. Even Laker fans such as yourself can’t appreciate his greatness. Too funny

The problem for Lebron is he's 3-6 in the Finals. Other stars have winning records, so when people bring up 8 FInals.....others will point out that Lebron wouldn't have made the Finals 8 straight timein the West.
It's weird how people use his FInals appearances to elevate Bron, but get upset when his bad Finals record is brought up. They go hand in hand. Then you compound things by Bron forming his Wade/Bosh and Love/Kyrie teams, and the results really are unimpressive.

Here we go.

He made the fInals as the best player on his team NINE TIMES, only idiots try spin that into a negative. By this measure losing in the conference finals or even failing to make the playoffs is better than losing in the finals which is ridiculous.

On the flip side, Kobe was the best player on a team that made the finals exactly twice, now try spinning that?

I'd say three times. 08-10

[Dr Spaceman]

Lebron is one of the best players of all time - but yeah... he shouldn't be doing this crap publicly. Doing this passive aggressive act where you badmouth your team mates has to be very grating. I have zero problem with Lebron being all over these guys behind the scenes. In private, he should be reaming guys out and pushing them hard to play better. In public, when you are the star, you take the blame whether it's your fault or not.

I'm sure post game interviews are annoying, dumb and repetitive for players.. but the answers are simple - "WE need to play better". "WE need to be more focused". etc. etc. etc

Everyone always compares Lebron to MJ.... well MJ was sometimes a complete a-hole to guys behind the scenes, but he always took the high road with the media and took the pressure and blame onto himself. That's your job as a star player (and as a good coach) You win and lose as a team and address problems inside your house.

No MJ did not always take the high road with the media.

Michael Jordan on Stacey King:

"Listen to this," he said. "You ever hear of a guy, six-eleven maybe and two hundred sixty pounds, a guy big and fat like that and he can’t get but two rebounds, if that many, running all over the damn court and he gets two rebounds?"

"Big guy like that," Jordan continued. "and he gets one rebound. Can’t even stick his ass into people and get more than that"

"Big, fat, fat guy...One rebound in three games. Power forward. Maybe they should call it powerless forward," he said.

[The_Hater]

But numbers do lie in basketball because if you look at numbers with out context, you get a skewed version of reality. I'm not really appealing to authority, I'm just saying it is still not a clear cut case in the eyes of the NBA public that LeBron is better than Kobe career wise.

No, it absolutely is. One is a probable top 3 player at worst. One is borderline top 10 all time. They're not comparable for almost a decade.

What criteria makes Lebron Top 3 at worst?

Common sense.

[LKN]

I don't recall MJ doing it through the media though (at least not very often). MJ could clearly be a big time ahole behind the scenes.... but I always remember him taking the blame as a team after losses when talking to the media. Granted, I remember the 2nd threepeat (I was in college then) more vividly and MJ had really mastered the PR game by then.

Lebron is probably a much nicer dude than MJ, but then again I think people prefer it when you call them out to their face.

Yeah I agree but MJ did say..

“We’re beating a lot of poor teams. So what? We won a lot of games last year, too. Will Horace and Bill still be playing at this level in the playoffs…Can Pip keep it up?”

“I hate being out there with those garbage men. They don’t get you the ball.”

“It’s probably a twelve-day. He needs two days to wake up.” – Michael on a ten-day contract teammate

“He was scared in there and panicking. He just lost it when Stockton scored.” – Michael on B.J. Armstrong’s mental fragility”

Lmao. Another MJ myth bites the dust

Those are quotes from the Jordan Rules... not things he said to the media.

[LKN]

Lebron is one of the best players of all time - but yeah... he shouldn't be doing this crap publicly. Doing this passive aggressive act where you badmouth your team mates has to be very grating. I have zero problem with Lebron being all over these guys behind the scenes. In private, he should be reaming guys out and pushing them hard to play better. In public, when you are the star, you take the blame whether it's your fault or not.

I'm sure post game interviews are annoying, dumb and repetitive for players.. but the answers are simple - "WE need to play better". "WE need to be more focused". etc. etc. etc

Everyone always compares Lebron to MJ.... well MJ was sometimes a complete a-hole to guys behind the scenes, but he always took the high road with the media and took the pressure and blame onto himself. That's your job as a star player (and as a good coach) You win and lose as a team and address problems inside your house.

No MJ did not always take the high road with the media.

Michael Jordan on Stacey King:

"Listen to this," he said. "You ever hear of a guy, six-eleven maybe and two hundred sixty pounds, a guy big and fat like that and he can’t get but two rebounds, if that many, running all over the damn court and he gets two rebounds?"

"Big guy like that," Jordan continued. "and he gets one rebound. Can’t even stick his ass into people and get more than that"

"Big, fat, fat guy...One rebound in three games. Power forward. Maybe they should call it powerless forward," he said.

That wasn't said to the media - that's another quote from the Jordan Rules.

https://books.google.com/books?id=zilYagKLBM0C&pg=PA213&lpg=PA213&dq=%22Listen+to+this,%22+he+said.+%22You+ever+hear+of+a+guy,+six-eleven+maybe+and+two+hundred+sixty+pounds,+a+guy+big+and+fat+like+that+and+he+can%E2%80%99t+get+but+two+rebounds,+if+that+many,+running+all+over+the+damn+court+and+he+gets+two+rebounds?%22+%22Big+guy+like+that,%22+Jordan+continued.+%22and+he+gets+one+rebound.+Can%E2%80%99t+even+stick+his+ass+into+people+and+get+more+than+that%22+%22Big,+fat,+fat+guy...One+rebound+in+three+games.+Power+forward.+Maybe+they+should+call+it+powerless+forward,%22+he+said.&source=bl&ots=hVBpyVX3bb&sig=ACfU3U1BsspNT8TsQgAeGIS1B8Fb-vv4kg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjNxLS87tbgAhVsk-AKHXRBCO0Q6AEwAHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Listen%20to%20this%2C%22%20he%20said.%20%22You%20ever%20hear%20of%20a%20guy%2C%20six-eleven%20maybe%20and%20two%20hundred%20sixty%20pounds%2C%20a%20guy%20big%20and%20fat%20like%20that%20and%20he%20can%E2%80%99t%20get%20but%20two%20rebounds%2C%20if%20that%20many%2C%20running%20all%20over%20the%20damn%20court%20and%20he%20gets%20two%20rebounds%3F%22%20%22Big%20guy%20like%20that%2C%22%20Jordan%20continued.%20%22and%20he%20gets%20one%20rebound.%20Can%E2%80%99t%20even%20stick%20his%20ass%20into%20people%20and%20get%20more%20than%20that%22%20%22Big%2C%20fat%2C%20fat%20guy...One%20rebound%20in%20three%20games.%20Power%20forward.%20Maybe%20they%20should%20call%20it%20powerless%20forward%2C%22%20he%20said.&f=false

[yesh]

LeCast never makes excuses for himself

[LKN]

LeCast never makes excuses for himself

Yeesh, I have no idea why he did that either.

Lebron is a smart guy, but he sometimes has an incredible lack of self awareness

[Ugly0598]

Because he's The Chosen One.

[righterwriter]

He's changed teams three times in eight years all for incredibly individualistic reasons. You can do the math.

BTW, absolutely love him as a player and he does incredibly charity work, but as far as the characteristics he displays, I'm not a fan.

[nikster]

Tried to get Erik Spoelstra fired, got David Blatt fired, and now on his way in getting Luke Walton fired. LeBron is a coach killer.

SO you only listed only one coach actually getting fired and he’s a “coach killer”

[Bankai]

Tried to get Erik Spoelstra fired, got David Blatt fired, and now on his way in getting Luke Walton fired. LeBron is a coach killer.

SO you only listed only one coach actually getting fired and he’s a “coach killer”

Doesent change the fact that he actively tries to get a Coach fired, if he doesent like them.

[John Murdoch]

13 pages really?

[Baski]

except they are substantial?

take Love:

last 4 years in Minny: 25 PER, 57.5 TS%, 14.7 VORP, 5.1 BPM, .216 WS/48

last 4 years in Cle pre 2019: 20 PER, 57.3 TS%, 7.9 VORP, 1.7 BPM, .169 WS/48

almost substantial drops in advanced metrics across the board. only thing similar is the TS%, and Love even then posting the same TS% on much lower usage and a lesser role isn't impressive at all.

the same thing for Bosh, and almost all of LeBron's teammates.

you *can* make an argument that LeBron doesn't do anything for his teammates, not make them worse or better, but the myth that he makes everyone better is just that: a myth.

You don't get to just cut out the years you don't want to include. Bosh's numbers didn't substantially decrease. Wade and Irving's numbers also did not get worse while playing with Lebron. The fact that you can point to a player like Curry, who the average fan thinks makes his teammates better, and show that the same drop happens to stars that join up with him, it shows that just looking at the numbers doesn't tell you if a player makes others better.

The difference is that with certain great players other great players play great...with Lebron you can count on Lebron-stans blaming other great players for not playing great.

Bird - McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge, Walton
Magic - Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Nixon, Wilkes, Cooper
Isiah - Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman, VJ
Russell - Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Jones', Havlicek
Jordan - Pippen, Grant, Kukoc, Rodman
Duncan - DRob, Bowen, Ginobli, Parker, Leonard
Kareem - Oscar, Magic, Worthy, Wilkes, Cooper
Kobe - Shaq, Pau, Odom, Bynum, MWP
Curry - Durant, Klay, Green, Iguodola
Durant - WB, Curry, Klay, Green


Look at all these great players and then look at Lebron.

He is the ONLY one that never takes any blame. Its always his teammates or coaching fault. Also its hard for his teammates to play above where they were before they played with Lebron. They do not get better, they are always accessories to Lebron.

That is why Lebron's teams always struggle to be great.......

This is very weird because:
1. Westbrook was regularly blamed for OKC's shortcomings. Brooks and Donovan are seen as incompetent by most OKC fans.
2. Magic got his coach fired within like 3 years or so of joining the league and lobbied to be drafted by the team which had the best player in the world.
3. Green and Klay, according to the most avid GSW fans, have been playing worse and worse every year since KD joined. Is it KD or Curry who is making them worse? I dunno but if Bosh and Love are the comparisons and not Irving and Wade, I see no reason to ignore these two. The fact that their team success has masked these significant drops doesn't mean they aren't happening.
4. Kobe and his fans threw Gasol and Howard under the bus whenever the Lakers failed. "Gasoft" and "Soft as charming" really happened. Not to mention the 2007 near-trade fiasco where Kobe rubbished his whole team and demanded a trade publicly.
5. Jordan has been recorded **** on his teammates in the Jordan Rules, and it's a common staple on here for Pippen to get blamed for choking away the 1990 ECF and pouting on the bench because he wasn't the focal point of a final play. His offense is consistently, and with some merit imo, derided in order to pump up how much Jordan had to do to carry the team offensively.

Duncan and Bird were 100% top of the line leaders who brought out the absolute best in others. Can't speak for Russell, Kareem and Isiah.

The point is that these things aren't unique to LeBron, and I've been saying for a while now that the constant 24/7 news cycle and social media has had a bigger impact on player perception than we think. Just because there were fewer chances to be seen as an **** in their time, doesn't mean that these other greats wouldn't be seen as **** today. I'm just saying in 2004 a news story was Kobe's rape case or the malice in the palace or some player getting a DUI. Today LeBron saying some stuff like this or Embiid trolling on twitter is news worthy. Things have changed man.
I have no idea why you would want to form these fake narratives just to make LeBron look bad.

[ShazamDaShiznt]

I am laughing at these topics, they always get so many comments from salty people, mostly from underwhelming team fans that haven't accomplished anything significant for a while

Pretty much all superstars are arrogant, fame does things to you. Not everyone is Tim Duncan who can stay low key from news.

Bron has multiple championships, lots of other accomplishments. He carried weak supporting casts to the finals, beat stronger opponents too. And you talk about things like whiny, no self responsibility dude is one of the winningest players ever.

Bu bu but he tried to get his coaches fired, why he always trying to trade players, wh wh why don't he shut up and play basketball