GT #59: Wizards @ Hornets 7:00 PM

[CobraCommander]

...The real tragedy is that early last season John Wall should have been traded. The Wizards should have known THEN to build around Beal and Porter, with Satoransky signed long-term.

The timing would have been perfect, yes. But that great marketing genius Ted Leonsis had built the entire image of the franchise around John Wall, so it could never have happened.

...Hate is a strong word. Otherwise, that's how I feel about Ernie Grunfeld.

Save "hate" for people who are evil.

I’m still amazed that wiz fans complain about wall...until we stop supporting a team that is run by Erine nothing will change. Not a single wizard “tricked” the wiz into signing them.

Individually not a single player is a problem...most of our starters from the start of the year could start on a lot if not most teams... but the collection of talent, coached by this coach coupled with those contracts is a recipe for disaster. Oh and who did that? Erine...not Wall not Beal...not Ian...not Otto...not Ariza...I mean come to your senses...sign Sato to a Erine deal at your own peril...in other words OVER pay for a 2nd or 3rd string euro that’s in his late 20s...Sato ain’t better than Lin...but he could get paid more with Erine. I mean honestly the KO for Ariza thing was insane...Ariza is a laker this year and everyone happy...including Ariza...sign Ariza this offseason and that contract is another anchor for a good player that cant help you win but can stop you from winning or developing talent...i like some of the pieces....but the Sato Love is ridiculous- dude not getting time in Boston,Toronto, Milwaukee, 76rs, Charlotte, Brooklyn...I mean we gonna bid against ourselves for Sato like we did with Otto and Brooklyn...because in the long run letting Otto go would have been better than signing him...based on the results. Until Erine goes this is a waste of emotions...heart breaking- I mean tanking is a plan...we got a allstar in beal...but do we...he isnt enough of one to will this team to wins against good teams...and he is our best player...by a mile...when Wall gets back....wall and beal with beal being the best player...you still going in reverse...as all of the best 4 teams in conf get better,....btw...Boston better without Kyrie finally started...I think we remember that story...except they got better pieces than we did...Al or Gortat...Jalen or Otto...beal or Tatum...who cares what you think...Boston actually has a plan and they deep...we don’t and we shallow. I’m sad for us

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

...The real tragedy is that early last season John Wall should have been traded. The Wizards should have known THEN to build around Beal and Porter, with Satoransky signed long-term.

The timing would have been perfect, yes. But that great marketing genius Ted Leonsis had built the entire image of the franchise around John Wall, so it could never have happened.

...Hate is a strong word. Otherwise, that's how I feel about Ernie Grunfeld.

Save "hate" for people who are evil.

I’m still amazed that wiz fans complain about wall...until we stop supporting a team that is run by Erine nothing will change. Not a single wizard “tricked” the wiz into signing them.

Individually not a single player is a problem...most of our starters from the start of the year could start on a lot if not most teams... but the collection of talent, coached by this coach coupled with those contracts is a recipe for disaster. Oh and who did that? Erine...not Wall not Beal...not Ian...not Otto...not Ariza...I mean come to your senses...sign Sato to a Erine deal at your own peril...in other words OVER pay for a 2nd or 3rd string euro that’s in his late 20s...Sato ain’t better than Lin...but he could get paid more with Erine. I mean honestly the KO for Ariza thing was insane...Ariza is a laker this year and everyone happy...including Ariza...sign Ariza this offseason and that contract is another anchor for a good player that cant help you win but can stop you from winning or developing talent...i like some of the pieces....but the Sato Love is ridiculous- dude not getting time in Boston,Toronto, Milwaukee, 76rs, Charlotte, Brooklyn...I mean we gonna bid against ourselves for Sato like we did with Otto and Brooklyn...because in the long run letting Otto go would have been better than signing him...based on the results. Until Erine goes this is a waste of emotions...heart breaking- I mean tanking is a plan...we got a allstar in beal...but do we...he isnt enough of one to will this team to wins against good teams...and he is our best player...by a mile...when Wall gets back....wall and beal with beal being the best player...you still going in reverse...as all of the best 4 teams in conf get better,....btw...Boston better without Kyrie finally started...I think we remember that story...except they got better pieces than we did...Al or Gortat...Jalen or Otto...beal or Tatum...who cares what you think...Boston actually has a plan and they deep...we don’t and we shallow. I’m sad for us

Wall is three years older and he has been known for athleticism at his position. Trading a valuable Wall pre super max and pre injury, injury which was something I considered/foresaw, was not a criticism of the player. Just as an insurance actuary would have done I appraised both Porter and Beal as having much better returns over time.

Early last season I posted trade Wall and build around Beal. Particularly, I recalled Gilbert never returning to form. Now, you're counting on after Wall returns. You are speaking about IF he is the same. I cannot recall a single PG ever sustaining a rupture of his Achilles tendon and returning to the NBA.

It would have been better for the Wizards to trade Wall last season.

[payitforward]

I’m still amazed that wiz fans complain about wall...until we stop supporting a team that is run by Erine nothing will change. Not a single wizard “tricked” the wiz into signing them.

Individually not a single player is a problem...most of our starters from the start of the year could start on a lot if not most teams... but the collection of talent, coached by this coach coupled with those contracts is a recipe for disaster. Oh and who did that? Erine...not Wall not Beal...not Ian...not Otto...not Ariza...I mean come to your senses...sign Sato to a Erine deal at your own peril...in other words OVER pay for a 2nd or 3rd string euro that’s in his late 20s...Sato ain’t better than Lin...but he could get paid more with Erine. I mean honestly the KO for Ariza thing was insane...Ariza is a laker this year and everyone happy...including Ariza...sign Ariza this offseason and that contract is another anchor for a good player that cant help you win but can stop you from winning or developing talent...i like some of the pieces....but the Sato Love is ridiculous- dude not getting time in Boston,Toronto, Milwaukee, 76rs, Charlotte, Brooklyn...I mean we gonna bid against ourselves for Sato like we did with Otto and Brooklyn...because in the long run letting Otto go would have been better than signing him...based on the results. Until Erine goes this is a waste of emotions...heart breaking- I mean tanking is a plan...we got a allstar in beal...but do we...he isnt enough of one to will this team to wins against good teams...and he is our best player...by a mile...when Wall gets back....wall and beal with beal being the best player...you still going in reverse...as all of the best 4 teams in conf get better,....btw...Boston better without Kyrie finally started...I think we remember that story...except they got better pieces than we did...Al or Gortat...Jalen or Otto...beal or Tatum...who cares what you think...Boston actually has a plan and they deep...we don’t and we shallow. I’m sad for us

Yeah... 'who cares what you think' -- & I'm sad for all of us: I mean... life is short, then you die. & along the way whaddya gotta do? Watch teams put together by Einre Dlefnurg! It's just lufwa, I'm tellin' ya.

All the same... no it wouldn't have been better to let Otto go. But yes Sato is way way better than Jeremy Lin.

Still, tho, don't be sad -- we could win the lottery! We could wind up with Zion Williamson! Ernie could get lost on the way to the arena!

[Dat2U]

To win 35 games max, which said your okay with.

It shouldn't take years and years to put together a TEAM that can win MORE 35 games.

I look as Beal as the very good INDIVIDUAL player that could be the trade chip to help build a very good TEAM for the future.

I never said I'd be OK with winning 35 games. In fact, I said with Beal, the development of particularly Bryant and Brown, the right draft picks the next two years, and the return of, hopefully, a healthy Wall, I could see the Zards winning 45-50 games by the 2020-21 season.

I'm just not for your formula which sounds to me like you're OK with winning 20-25 games the next 2-3 seasons with the hope of having a very good team sometime in the future.

We don't disagree on the goal...we just disagree on the process.

In reality we do disagree on the goal because there is no realistic way to get there from your preferred direction.

You just stated by the 20-21 season, the Wizards could win 45-50 with good health from Wall.

That's your actual goal.. and its pathetically low barrier that this franchise likely couldn't even come close to reaching. Not unless they got incredibly lucky within the next two years.

[DCZards]

To win 35 games max, which said your okay with.

It shouldn't take years and years to put together a TEAM that can win MORE 35 games.

I look as Beal as the very good INDIVIDUAL player that could be the trade chip to help build a very good TEAM for the future.

I never said I'd be OK with winning 35 games. In fact, I said with Beal, the development of particularly Bryant and Brown, the right draft picks the next two years, and the return of, hopefully, a healthy Wall, I could see the Zards winning 45-50 games by the 2020-21 season.

I'm just not for your formula which sounds to me like you're OK with winning 20-25 games the next 2-3 seasons with the hope of having a very good team sometime in the future.

We don't disagree on the goal...we just disagree on the process.

In reality we do disagree on the goal because there is no realistic way to get there from your preferred direction.

You just stated by the 20-21 season, the Wizards could win 45-50 with good health from Wall.

That's your actual goal.. and its pathetically low barrier that this franchise likely couldn't even come close to reaching. Not unless they got incredibly lucky within the next two years.

Whatever, Dat, whatever.

So let’s just go with your idea of trading Beal to the Knicks for the third pick and 2 backups (Trier & Ntilikina).

[Dat2U]

I never said I'd be OK with winning 35 games. In fact, I said with Beal, the development of particularly Bryant and Brown, the right draft picks the next two years, and the return of, hopefully, a healthy Wall, I could see the Zards winning 45-50 games by the 2020-21 season.

I'm just not for your formula which sounds to me like you're OK with winning 20-25 games the next 2-3 seasons with the hope of having a very good team sometime in the future.

We don't disagree on the goal...we just disagree on the process.

In reality we do disagree on the goal because there is no realistic way to get there from your preferred direction.

You just stated by the 20-21 season, the Wizards could win 45-50 with good health from Wall.

That's your actual goal.. and its pathetically low barrier that this franchise likely couldn't even come close to reaching. Not unless they got incredibly lucky within the next two years.

Whatever, Dat, whatever.

So let’s just go with your idea of trading Beal to the Knicks for the third pick and 2 backups (Trier & Ntilikina).

Well how do you jump from 45-50 wins in two years (if, and that's a major if, Wall is healthy) when it's time to re-up Beal to actually competing for something?

And any deal to New York would likely include Knox & DSJ so the Knicks can maintain two max slots.

[payitforward]

Look... if you're starting over, you're starting over. You don't keep Beal b/c you like him!

& if your goal in starting over is to compete for a title, then Bradley Beal doesn't help you reach that goal, b/c the rest of what you need won't be there soon enough to leverage his good play.

As to the trade w/ NY. I don't want Trier, Ntilikina, DSJ &/or Knox -- you can keep all of them!

I want that #3 pick, & I want Mitchell Robinson -- & the Knicks' R2 pick this year if they would give in & include it. But I'd do the trade w/o that.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Look... if you're starting over, you're starting over. You don't keep Beal b/c you like him!

& if your goal in starting over is to compete for a title, then Bradley Beal doesn't help you reach that goal, b/c the rest of what you need won't be there soon enough to leverage his good play.

As to the trade w/ NY. I don't want Trier, Ntilikina, DSJ &/or Knox -- you can keep all of them!

I want that #3 pick, & I want Mitchell Robinson -- & the Knicks' R2 pick this year if they would give in & include it. But I'd do the trade w/o that.

The thing is, there is such a small window before the draft to make a trade and the Knicks have so few players under contract for next season that any trade for Beal would have to include most of those guys. The Knicks weren't willing to give up the pick for Davis before the deadline. I don't think any team is going to trade a shot at Zion for Beal.

The thing with the Wizards is that they're entering territory with Beal that the Pelicans were in with Davis. They're a team that struggles to make the playoffs at the best of times and are going to miss this season again. After this lost season, they have two more seasons with Beal under contract at which point he probably leaves unless the team supermaxes him (a bad idea) or the team has done a complete 180 and is suddenly contending (not happening). During that same time they already have wall on a supermax that's going to be on a long recovery plan guided by the Wizards crack medical squad. If the Wizards don't trade him next season, then what? The vultures will start circling and teams will wait Ernie out. I'm not optimistic that Ernie is creative enough to get out of this hole he's dug for himself. He's going to try to dig down until he finds a way out.

[nate33]

Look... if you're starting over, you're starting over. You don't keep Beal b/c you like him!

& if your goal in starting over is to compete for a title, then Bradley Beal doesn't help you reach that goal, b/c the rest of what you need won't be there soon enough to leverage his good play.

As to the trade w/ NY. I don't want Trier, Ntilikina, DSJ &/or Knox -- you can keep all of them!

I want that #3 pick, & I want Mitchell Robinson -- & the Knicks' R2 pick this year if they would give in & include it. But I'd do the trade w/o that.

The thing is, there is such a small window before the draft to make a trade and the Knicks have so few players under contract for next season that any trade for Beal would have to include most of those guys. The Knicks weren't willing to give up the pick for Davis before the deadline. I don't think any team is going to trade a shot at Zion for Beal.

The thing with the Wizards is that they're entering territory with Beal that the Pelicans were in with Davis. They're a team that struggles to make the playoffs at the best of times and are going to miss this season again. After this lost season, they have two more seasons with Beal under contract at which point he probably leaves unless the team supermaxes him (a bad idea) or the team has done a complete 180 and is suddenly contending (not happening). During that same time they already have wall on a supermax that's going to be on a long recovery plan guided by the Wizards crack medical squad. If the Wizards don't trade him next season, then what? The vultures will start circling and teams will wait Ernie out. I'm not optimistic that Ernie is creative enough to get out of this hole he's dug for himself. He's going to try to dig down until he finds a way out.

The decision on whether or not to trade Beal requires information that we do not have access too. It all boils down to Beal's comfort level with the organization, his sense of belonging in the community, and his belief that the franchise can turn things around in relatively short order.

I don't know where Beal stands on these things. If there's a decent chance that Beal will not be happy in two years and is prepared to bolt in free agency, then we should absolutely trade him as soon as possible while his value is highest. But it might well be the case that Beal has stated that he wants to be a Wizard for life and he is willing to stay as long as he is compensated fairly. The experiences of guys like Davis, Durant, Butler, Hayward and Kawhi is informative. It is evident that being a mercenary for hire isn't necessarily the path to happiness. Beal may have concluded that he'd be happier with a career more like Damian Lillard or Rudy Gobert. Maybe he doesn't win a title, but it's nice to be the leader of a franchise in a city that loves you.

I think a rebuild can be accomplished with Beal on the roster. As we have discussed earlier, the new lottery system doesn't not reward ultra-sucking much more than it rewards mild incompetence. This year, we are sure to land a top 9 pick, with 32% chance at a top 4 pick. We will probably be in the lottery again next year without Wall, so that's another lottery pick. In 2020/21, I don't see why we can't be back in the second tier of playoff teams (5-8) with a few more young players with upside playing a major role. The team certainly won't be a contender and will have no capacity for contention without some major luck in the lottery, but 45 wins is easily doable.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I think a rebuild can be done with Beal on the roster, too, but the probability of that took a massive nosedive with Wall's injury. If Wall takes a season or two to return to normal, that's a problem. And given Wall's age, who knows what normal is. The Wizards are basically operating under one of those old-school franchise crippling limited caps the league used to foist onto expansion teams.

The way to work around that is in the draft. I'm not optimistic Ernie will move in that direction. Porter was the best shot at adding draft picks and Ernie just dumped him while avoiding taking back any picks other than a protected 2023 2nd rounder. I suppose the team could extend Sato and Bryant and then try to flip them for picks, but we're talking about a reasonably limited window here because once Beal's contract is up, he's going to get paid in a big way, and he will deserve it.

As for what Beal wants, sure we don't know, but I do think it's time to come to grips with the reality that, unless there is some sort of surprise opportunity that comes up or the team does a total about-face and starts playing like a 50-win team with the same players on the roster, it's time to seriously consider moving Beal. It sucks. It isn't Beal's fault. But hanging on to Beal at this stage is basically accepting that it's likely that the team will finish in that 7-11 zone for the remainder of Beal's contract unless he gets injured for one of the two remaining seasons (also not a good thing). Granted, I do expect that's what Grunfeld is going to do since he hasn't hidden that his goal is always to try to make the playoffs and see where things go from there. He's intentionally aiming to be on the fringe for that 8th pick and is actually pretty good at hitting near his mark.

[DCZards]

Look... if you're starting over, you're starting over. You don't keep Beal b/c you like him!

You’re missing the point. Debate, at least for me, is not about keeping Beal because I like him. It’s over whether we blow it up and start over. So, while you and others might embrace starting over, not all of us agree with that approach.

I’ve laid out why I think the Zards could/should rebuild around Beal and it has little to do with “liking him.” It has much more to do with who Beal is as a ballplayer, competitor, person, leader and potential face of this franchise.

Bottom line though is let’s just wait until after this season when the Zards have a new GM with a new game plan. And the roster now includes a top 4-6 draft pick. That will be the best time to discuss and debate the path forward.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

DCZards, I'm digging your avatar!

Props to you on the optimism. Also, I wish I had your optimism about the new GM.