Season Speculation, Free Agency & Trade Ideas: Our Johnson is finally working

[Kerrsed]

It's just amazing how building a team with a vision seems like such a great plan, and how McD never seemed to have any vision about how he wanted the team to look.

Travis Schlenk, for example, apparently wanted to model his team after the Warriors (being an asst GM from there) but also build assets, so he trades down, picks up a first, gets Trae, drafts a sharpshooter (who is also a great passer) in Huerter and an all defensive big tough guy who can also hit 3s in Spellman (ex teammate of Mikal Bridges)..Spellman blocked shots but also shot over 43% from 3.

There was a lot of talk about they were their version of Curry, Klay and Draymond.

But when we play them I'm just watching it work...them bombing 3s on us...even Dedmon and Collins...everyone on their team pretty much is hitting 3s...heck, even Len is hitting them.

It just feels like there was ZERO vision in putting this team together...

NO ONE can hit 3s. I mean TJ is our best 3 pt shooter this year. If you would have heard that last year you would have laughed and thought it was a joke.

Now props to TJ for fixing his shot and becoming 11th in 3pt% this year, but that had nothing to do with McD building this team.

How can you build a team these days with very few good 3 pt shooters and no playmakers. The NBA today is all about multiple playmakers and shooters everywhere.

It seriously blows my mind.

I know a ton of blame is thrown Igor's way but seriously, there is SO little to work with in terms of what will win today. If you get killed from 3 every game, you simply ARE NOT going to win...EVER...barring something crazy like heavily outrebounding or getting to the line a lot more than the other team.

If i recall correctly there was a McD vision, and it was to emulate the Celtics (Who he was with for many many years). The idea was to completely dismantle the team and start a rebuild (Something that Sarver always refused to do and instead just liked to re-tool). The plan was to collect as many assets as possible, then use them in trade to acquire disgruntled stars just like they did in Boston with Garnett and Ray Allen when he was there. With Boston they tanked out and got a great young player via the draft in Paul Pierce. Had a few loosing seasons with him and collected some high draft picks along with youngsters with potential....that they then used to obtain Garnett and Allen (Allen coming because of Garnett and Pierce). It cost Boston a freshly drafted and highly touted Al Jefferson, along with Gomes/Telfair/Green/Ratliff, 2 2009 1st round picks and Cash. It looked to be a huge haul for the Wolves at the time, but most of those players never came close to their potential.

We tried to do somewhat the same, McD made some deal to obtain guys (regardless of their positions) that other teams would want and on good deals. The issue is we never found our "Garnett". The Suns just dont have the city and prestigious history and media market that the Celtics have. Things like that swing in the Celtics favor when it comes to weighing the risk of trading for players. While McD did have the opportunity to go after a few high end guys, there was just too much risk that we would end up trading for a player and then they would leave in FA. We saw how things were playing out with that so we decided to go opposite order of what Boston did and hope that the signing of a huge name FA would help us in that if we do trade for another star, that they would stay.....but as we saw that really backfired. Lebron turned us down, Aldridge had a last minute change of heart, Griffin....who knows if that was even real or if he was using us, but the thing is we chased the biggest named FA's and sat by idly as everyone else got snagged up and we were still waiting for our replies from option #1.

So there we sat with our d**ks in our hand holding on to our Paul Pierce (Booker), and failing to land our Garnett and then our Allen (And later our Allen THEN our Garnett).

Basically, McD did have a plan, and he stated exactly what is was multiple times, he just could see it come to fruition.

[Kerrsed]

And let me just put this out there.....im telling you straight up that Doncic was McD's man. I dont care what was said, McD was putting it all on himself and taking whatever heat there was away from Sarver like a good employee would. Fact is Sarvers ties to UofA are huge and Ayton would be a big money maker. Im telling you, the reason you saw both Sarver and James Jones at 2 of Doncic's games is because McD told him he has to go and see the kid play live and in person. McD had his mind made up already, but we all know he didnt have the final say as GM and had to convince Sarver and Jones that Doncic was the right pick, hence why they were there (Luka didnt preform that well the 1st game they watched). I truly believe that Doncic and Igor was McD's plan, but Doncic got overruled by Sarver/Jones. Sure McD SAID that Ayton was his choice, but once again it was McD playing the role to try to keep his Boss blame free in whatever situation should arise.

[Frank Lee]

So what

[Bogyo]

And let me just put this out there.....im telling you straight up that Doncic was McD's man. I dont care what was said, McD was putting it all on himself and taking whatever heat there was away from Sarver like a good employee would. Fact is Sarvers ties to UofA are huge and Ayton would be a big money maker. Im telling you, the reason you saw both Sarver and James Jones at 2 of Doncic's games is because McD told him he has to go and see the kid play live and in person. McD had his mind made up already, but we all know he didnt have the final say as GM and had to convince Sarver and Jones that Doncic was the right pick, hence why they were there (Luka didnt preform that well the 1st game they watched). I truly believe that Doncic and Igor was McD's plan, but Doncic got overruled by Sarver/Jones. Sure McD SAID that Ayton was his choice, but once again it was McD playing the role to try to keep his Boss blame free in whatever situation should arise.

That's one I'd really like to find out somethime. Who shat on my favourite sports team for the next 15 years in advance with that stupid decision? Drafting a p*ssy instead a killer, becouse of fit. Bowie part 2, just worse.
Imagine getting Doncic and paying Nurkic instead of Ariza, then trading for a decent PG with all our draftpicks... We'd be second round material THIS year

[Son of Ra]

And let me just put this out there.....im telling you straight up that Doncic was McD's man. I dont care what was said, McD was putting it all on himself and taking whatever heat there was away from Sarver like a good employee would. Fact is Sarvers ties to UofA are huge and Ayton would be a big money maker. Im telling you, the reason you saw both Sarver and James Jones at 2 of Doncic's games is because McD told him he has to go and see the kid play live and in person. McD had his mind made up already, but we all know he didnt have the final say as GM and had to convince Sarver and Jones that Doncic was the right pick, hence why they were there (Luka didnt preform that well the 1st game they watched). I truly believe that Doncic and Igor was McD's plan, but Doncic got overruled by Sarver/Jones. Sure McD SAID that Ayton was his choice, but once again it was McD playing the role to try to keep his Boss blame free in whatever situation should arise.

That's one I'd really like to find out somethime. Who shat on my favourite sports team for the next 15 years in advance with that stupid decision? Drafting a p*ssy instead a killer, becouse of fit. Bowie part 2, just worse.
Imagine getting Doncic and paying Nurkic instead of Ariza, then trading for a decent PG with all our draftpicks... We'd be second round material THIS year

Thank you. I made the Bowie comparison a few weeks back and got shat on for it.

[WeekapaugGroove]

And let me just put this out there.....im telling you straight up that Doncic was McD's man. I dont care what was said, McD was putting it all on himself and taking whatever heat there was away from Sarver like a good employee would. Fact is Sarvers ties to UofA are huge and Ayton would be a big money maker. Im telling you, the reason you saw both Sarver and James Jones at 2 of Doncic's games is because McD told him he has to go and see the kid play live and in person. McD had his mind made up already, but we all know he didnt have the final say as GM and had to convince Sarver and Jones that Doncic was the right pick, hence why they were there (Luka didnt preform that well the 1st game they watched). I truly believe that Doncic and Igor was McD's plan, but Doncic got overruled by Sarver/Jones. Sure McD SAID that Ayton was his choice, but once again it was McD playing the role to try to keep his Boss blame free in whatever situation should arise.

Weird take considering the little weasle mcd was so fond of blaming failures on others and leaking info. I think we'd have heard by now.

Also he used his 1st lotto pick on a C and his biggest UFA signing was a C. Dude liked centers.

Plus after Aytons workout mcd looked like he was about to spring a Woody with excitement.

My guess is the whole organizational wanted Ayton. He looks like a freak in workouts I get the appeal and think plenty of teams would have made the same decision. I"m sure Sarver had final say on this pick simply because there isn't an owner in the league that wouldn't have final say on a move as big as the #1 pick in the draft.

Heck kerrsed weren't you a doncic guy for a second but then went all in Ayton after they win the lottery? It was easy to get caught in the hype.


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[WeekapaugGroove]

It's just amazing how building a team with a vision seems like such a great plan, and how McD never seemed to have any vision about how he wanted the team to look.

Travis Schlenk, for example, apparently wanted to model his team after the Warriors (being an asst GM from there) but also build assets, so he trades down, picks up a first, gets Trae, drafts a sharpshooter (who is also a great passer) in Huerter and an all defensive big tough guy who can also hit 3s in Spellman (ex teammate of Mikal Bridges)..Spellman blocked shots but also shot over 43% from 3.

There was a lot of talk about they were their version of Curry, Klay and Draymond.

But when we play them I'm just watching it work...them bombing 3s on us...even Dedmon and Collins...everyone on their team pretty much is hitting 3s...heck, even Len is hitting them.

It just feels like there was ZERO vision in putting this team together...

NO ONE can hit 3s. I mean TJ is our best 3 pt shooter this year. If you would have heard that last year you would have laughed and thought it was a joke.

Now props to TJ for fixing his shot and becoming 11th in 3pt% this year, but that had nothing to do with McD building this team.

How can you build a team these days with very few good 3 pt shooters and no playmakers. The NBA today is all about multiple playmakers and shooters everywhere.

It seriously blows my mind.

I know a ton of blame is thrown Igor's way but seriously, there is SO little to work with in terms of what will win today. If you get killed from 3 every game, you simply ARE NOT going to win...EVER...barring something crazy like heavily outrebounding or getting to the line a lot more than the other team.

If i recall correctly there was a McD vision, and it was to emulate the Celtics (Who he was with for many many years). The idea was to completely dismantle the team and start a rebuild (Something that Sarver always refused to do and instead just liked to re-tool). The plan was to collect as many assets as possible, then use them in trade to acquire disgruntled stars just like they did in Boston with Garnett and Ray Allen when he was there. With Boston they tanked out and got a great young player via the draft in Paul Pierce. Had a few loosing seasons with him and collected some high draft picks along with youngsters with potential....that they then used to obtain Garnett and Allen (Allen coming because of Garnett and Pierce). It cost Boston a freshly drafted and highly touted Al Jefferson, along with Gomes/Telfair/Green/Ratliff, 2 2009 1st round picks and Cash. It looked to be a huge haul for the Wolves at the time, but most of those players never came close to their potential.

We tried to do somewhat the same, McD made some deal to obtain guys (regardless of their positions) that other teams would want and on good deals. The issue is we never found our "Garnett". The Suns just dont have the city and prestigious history and media market that the Celtics have. Things like that swing in the Celtics favor when it comes to weighing the risk of trading for players. While McD did have the opportunity to go after a few high end guys, there was just too much risk that we would end up trading for a player and then they would leave in FA. We saw how things were playing out with that so we decided to go opposite order of what Boston did and hope that the signing of a huge name FA would help us in that if we do trade for another star, that they would stay.....but as we saw that really backfired. Lebron turned us down, Aldridge had a last minute change of heart, Griffin....who knows if that was even real or if he was using us, but the thing is we chased the biggest named FA's and sat by idly as everyone else got snagged up and we were still waiting for our replies from option #1.

So there we sat with our d**ks in our hand holding on to our Paul Pierce (Booker), and failing to land our Garnett and then our Allen (And later our Allen THEN our Garnett).

Basically, McD did have a plan, and he stated exactly what is was multiple times, he just could see it come to fruition.

While I think you're right that McD wanted to emulate the Boston plan you're a little off on what actually happened with Boston. They didn't 'tank to get Pierce' he was a late lotto pick and him and Walker then made the playoffs for like 4-5 years in a row when they were younger. Pierce was an established All Star in the prime of his career when they made the Allen and Garnett trade. And actually those trades were really plan B for them. They absolutely tanked the year prior to that after breaking up him and Walker and plan A was to land Oden or Durrant; the lotto failed them so then they traded that pick to Seattle for Allen then traded some young pieces for Garnett.

Honestly what they did is very very rare. Since then I can't think of 1 single example of a bad team that traded for a 'star' as their path to actually getting good. There have been plenty of decent teams that have used this route to put them over the top but actually going from bad to good this way is not something that is done often. And again they already had an established allstar in Pierce. I can't think of any scenarios where a team without one traded their way out of suckyness.

[Frank Lee]

Spoiler:

And let me just put this out there.....im telling you straight up that Doncic was McD's man. I dont care what was said, McD was putting it all on himself and taking whatever heat there was away from Sarver like a good employee would. Fact is Sarvers ties to UofA are huge and Ayton would be a big money maker. Im telling you, the reason you saw both Sarver and James Jones at 2 of Doncic's games is because McD told him he has to go and see the kid play live and in person. McD had his mind made up already, but we all know he didnt have the final say as GM and had to convince Sarver and Jones that Doncic was the right pick, hence why they were there (Luka didnt preform that well the 1st game they watched). I truly believe that Doncic and Igor was McD's plan, but Doncic got overruled by Sarver/Jones. Sure McD SAID that Ayton was his choice, but once again it was McD playing the role to try to keep his Boss blame free in whatever situation should arise.

That's one I'd really like to find out somethime. Who shat on my favourite sports team for the next 15 years in advance with that stupid decision? Drafting a p*ssy instead a killer, becouse of fit. Bowie part 2, just worse.
Imagine getting Doncic and paying Nurkic instead of Ariza, then trading for a decent PG with all our draftpicks... We'd be second round material THIS year

Thank you. I made the Bowie comparison a few weeks back and got what on for it.

Bowie the player was actually a GD stud...and no wuss. Bowie the draft pick was a disaster due to injury and of course the emergence of the GOAT. There is a real good docu on him (i think 30-4-30)

Ayton is not a bust, lets be clear. Hes going to get better, as he has already showed some improvement. He has mad potential offensively. This season is a rocky honeymoon for him. He's learning what not to do, what not to say. He' is still a GD kid. Lets not forget that. We cant rewind the clock. Yeah, Luka looks like a special player, but so does Young. That was a good draft as there are 5-6 guys that are going to be around contributing for a while.

Im just not going to b**** about it anymore. I'll spank She-Andre when I see her, but Im done with the wouldashouldacoulda routine and I advise that for all you sourpusses. The rebuild is over, and the remodeling begins. We still have some good GD youngsters as a foundation. This will be an important off season and it can turn out well. Yeah, I know, we cant get the last 5 yrs back.

Furthermore, the more I think on it, the more I get comfortable with Morant. If he grades out, he will be a welcomed addition IMO. Dude has killer in him, is fast as F, with big hops AND a handle... plus his shot isnt broken. A combo of him and Johnson will be just fine IMO. Id then throw some chunky change to Randall or Mirotic. then fill in the gaps. Im on the fence as to what to do with Oubrick and Jackstone, but they do bring attitude, swag and dont dog it. If we become more of a transition team, they will excel.

We'll know more come lotto day and all we need is one more dose of good GD luck. ****, we deserve it. If we dont get 1 or 2... then its move on to a different strategy. But there is no need to check your shoelaces in at the counter.

[alamin330]

Y’all are bugging. You really gave josh jackson 1.5 seasons to be a superstar and ayton about 50 games to be a superstar. Impatience is what got the suns in this situation and it’s not just Sarver. Looks like most suns fan have the same impatient trait as Sarver. Any of you putting down Sarver for making desperate moves or whatever you want to call them need to take a look in the mirror because you’re one in the same. Ayton is nowhere near a bust. Any other draft class ayton is probably ROY. This was a really good draft class. Ayton has better rookie numbers than cousins and AD but he’s a bust? If suns had more wins and ayton played the same you wouldn’t call him a bust.
A pg who can shoot 3s defend and pass and a rebounding stretch 4 with booker oubre and ayton this team will be dangerous. Add in some vets off the bench and this is a playoff team. Watch the games and not the stats for once. Ayton, booker and oubre are keepers. I think everyone else can and should be considered for trades if the right offer comes along.
It’s still so strange how you guys are so inconsistent in your criticism. So josh and ayton are busts but then you love Mikal and Holmes as if they are doing so great when they play. Bridges has done nothing for a while now. Holmes has been trash. But I don’t ever see anything on here about them it’s always let’s trade our best players because the rest of the roster sucks. How about let’s keep our best players because everyone sucks

[alamin330]

Here’s what a lot of you don’t understand about basketball. Devin booker was an exception. Same as Donovan Mitchell. The other part you don’t understand is that most lottery picks have veterans to learn from and have time to work on their weaknesses. Suns have practically zero vets. Josh jackson had no one to study from. Neither does ayton. These guys are learning on the job in games. Plus McDonough did such a terrible job of surrounding our youth with mature nba vets who have been on winning teams. Josh jackson, ayton have never experienced that. At least bridges had multiple years at nova and won championships but he still has no one to learn from in the nba. Ariza was only in it for the money. Book had Bledsoe, markieff, tucker and chandler. These young guys came in to a roster of guys just as young and inexperienced as them. The coaching can only do so much. The only way to help these guys is the get a veteran back up center and veteran wing player and pg who can still contribute and not Jared Dudley or Ryan Anderson. Jamal would’ve been great for their development if he was a 12th man or had more veteran leadership to help him but he can’t do it on his own. Stop beating down these young guys who haven’t even been in the league 5 minutes. Suns have a bright future but most of you want to sell low on that future for consistent losing seasons like the pelicans.

[RaisingArizona]

Y’all are bugging. You really gave josh jackson 1.5 seasons to be a superstar and ayton about 50 games to be a superstar. Impatience is what got the suns in this situation and it’s not just Sarver. Looks like most suns fan have the same impatient trait as Sarver. Any of you putting down Sarver for making desperate moves or whatever you want to call them need to take a look in the mirror because you’re one in the same. Ayton is nowhere near a bust. Any other draft class ayton is probably ROY. This was a really good draft class. Ayton has better rookie numbers than cousins and AD but he’s a bust? If suns had more wins and ayton played the same you wouldn’t call him a bust.
A pg who can shoot 3s defend and pass and a rebounding stretch 4 with booker oubre and ayton this team will be dangerous. Add in some vets off the bench and this is a playoff team. Watch the games and not the stats for once. Ayton, booker and oubre are keepers. I think everyone else can and should be considered for trades if the right offer comes along.
It’s still so strange how you guys are so inconsistent in your criticism. So josh and ayton are busts but then you love Mikal and Holmes as if they are doing so great when they play. Bridges has done nothing for a while now. Holmes has been trash. But I don’t ever see anything on here about them it’s always let’s trade our best players because the rest of the roster sucks. How about let’s keep our best players because everyone sucks

A superstar? JJ isn't even an average starter on most teams. Bad decisions, possible headcase. Goodwin 2.0

Ayton is **** soft and fans have a right to be pissed about it. He talks a big game then doesn't try on defense. Guards go to the rack at ease and he doesn't even TRY to contest. Ever since his "I'm taking over comment" he is getting his usual 14 and 10 with horrible defense.

[Frank Lee]

Its hard to teach tough

[WeekapaugGroove]

Has there ever been a lotto pick who's been as bad as Jackson his first two seasons who ended up being good? That's not a retorical question I'm curious of an example or two.


Ayton and Jackson shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. While maybe Ayton doesn't end up the best guy in this class he's going to be a fine player. He's already a positive contibutor. Jackson is negative player and by some measurements literally the worst offensive rotation player in the NBA. There's a huge difference between the two.

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[BobbieL]

Has there ever been a lotto pick who's been as bad as Jackson his first two seasons who ended up being good? That's not a retorical question I'm curious of an example or two.


Ayton and Jackson shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. While maybe Ayton doesn't end up the best guy in this class he's going to be a fine player. He's already a positive contibutor. Jackson is negative player and by some measurements literally the worst offensive rotation player in the NBA. There's a huge difference between the two.

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Anthony Bennett


I always compare Jackson to Corey Brewer for many reasons. Both have the same build, both have the same offensive game early in their careers It took Corey a long time, many stops around the league to find his niche in the league. I can see Josh having that same issue.

[alamin330]

Has there ever been a lotto pick who's been as bad as Jackson his first two seasons who ended up being good? That's not a retorical question I'm curious of an example or two.


Ayton and Jackson shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. While maybe Ayton doesn't end up the best guy in this class he's going to be a fine player. He's already a positive contibutor. Jackson is negative player and by some measurements literally the worst offensive rotation player in the NBA. There's a huge difference between the two.

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Joe Johnson, Paul George off the top of the head

[BobbieL]

It's just amazing how building a team with a vision seems like such a great plan, and how McD never seemed to have any vision about how he wanted the team to look.

Travis Schlenk, for example, apparently wanted to model his team after the Warriors (being an asst GM from there) but also build assets, so he trades down, picks up a first, gets Trae, drafts a sharpshooter (who is also a great passer) in Huerter and an all defensive big tough guy who can also hit 3s in Spellman (ex teammate of Mikal Bridges)..Spellman blocked shots but also shot over 43% from 3.

There was a lot of talk about they were their version of Curry, Klay and Draymond.

But when we play them I'm just watching it work...them bombing 3s on us...even Dedmon and Collins...everyone on their team pretty much is hitting 3s...heck, even Len is hitting them.

It just feels like there was ZERO vision in putting this team together...

NO ONE can hit 3s. I mean TJ is our best 3 pt shooter this year. If you would have heard that last year you would have laughed and thought it was a joke.

Now props to TJ for fixing his shot and becoming 11th in 3pt% this year, but that had nothing to do with McD building this team.

How can you build a team these days with very few good 3 pt shooters and no playmakers. The NBA today is all about multiple playmakers and shooters everywhere.

It seriously blows my mind.

I know a ton of blame is thrown Igor's way but seriously, there is SO little to work with in terms of what will win today. If you get killed from 3 every game, you simply ARE NOT going to win...EVER...barring something crazy like heavily outrebounding or getting to the line a lot more than the other team.

I know a lot of people are probably Igors buddy - but Gentry said it again this week - the team is young especially if you take out Jamal. The organization needs a consistent coach - I think they have to keep Igor. I think starting again from zero would be so bad

As for the team - again, when Ryan McD decided Ayton was the guy - what the hell was the plan
1) 15m of cap space
2) the 16, 31, Bucks pick and Miami pick to trade


Why the hell sign Ariza when you have a Jared Dudley - just tell him to get his butt in shape

why not get a real PG


no trhought what so ever... kind of irritating actually

[alamin330]

Some of you would’ve traded Kobe Bryant after his rookie year because of his stats and not potential.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Has there ever been a lotto pick who's been as bad as Jackson his first two seasons who ended up being good? That's not a retorical question I'm curious of an example or two.


Ayton and Jackson shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. While maybe Ayton doesn't end up the best guy in this class he's going to be a fine player. He's already a positive contibutor. Jackson is negative player and by some measurements literally the worst offensive rotation player in the NBA. There's a huge difference between the two.

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Joe Johnson, Paul George off the top of the head

Go take a look at both their bb reference pages. Paul George was much much better his first two years by all advanced metrics. Hell his advanced stats in year two are better than Devin booker has ever posted in any season. I know you don't like him but Bridges is actually a guy with similar advanced stats his rookie yr as George. Neither put up big counting stats but good indicators were there.

Johnson is closer but his advanced stats were better and he was trending up by year two.

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[alamin330]

Y’all are bugging. You really gave josh jackson 1.5 seasons to be a superstar and ayton about 50 games to be a superstar. Impatience is what got the suns in this situation and it’s not just Sarver. Looks like most suns fan have the same impatient trait as Sarver. Any of you putting down Sarver for making desperate moves or whatever you want to call them need to take a look in the mirror because you’re one in the same. Ayton is nowhere near a bust. Any other draft class ayton is probably ROY. This was a really good draft class. Ayton has better rookie numbers than cousins and AD but he’s a bust? If suns had more wins and ayton played the same you wouldn’t call him a bust.
A pg who can shoot 3s defend and pass and a rebounding stretch 4 with booker oubre and ayton this team will be dangerous. Add in some vets off the bench and this is a playoff team. Watch the games and not the stats for once. Ayton, booker and oubre are keepers. I think everyone else can and should be considered for trades if the right offer comes along.
It’s still so strange how you guys are so inconsistent in your criticism. So josh and ayton are busts but then you love Mikal and Holmes as if they are doing so great when they play. Bridges has done nothing for a while now. Holmes has been trash. But I don’t ever see anything on here about them it’s always let’s trade our best players because the rest of the roster sucks. How about let’s keep our best players because everyone sucks

A superstar? JJ isn't even an average starter on most teams. Bad decisions, possible headcase. Goodwin 2.0

Ayton is **** soft and fans have a right to be pissed about it. He talks a big game then doesn't try on defense. Guards go to the rack at ease and he doesn't even TRY to contest. Ever since his "I'm taking over comment" he is getting his usual 14 and 10 with horrible defense.

You have young Robert Sarver traits. Goowdwin was smaller and had a low motor. Jackson is longer quicker smarter and with an elite motor. So he’s not the best player right now doesn’t mean he’s not going to be. I understand if the patience is wearing thin but it is really only his 2nd year and he is still young and still without a mentor. Year 5 is when most guys show you what they will be. Which is why I always say tj Warren is what he will be. As far as ayton being soft have you ever been a 20 year old playing against strong grown men every night with no body else on your team to help you muscle your way around or teach you how to use your body against them? I didn’t think so. He’s definitely not soft. He’s just not wild like Holmes who is just terrible. He gets rebounds at an all star level already which cousins and AD weren’t doing their first year. He’s young and doesn’t know how to use his strength yet which most young guys are guilty of. He still working on his timing to block shots which takes time. He’s also still working on post moves and his 3 pt shooting. Patience is a virtue my friend. Josh and ayton will be fine. They need mentors and vets to encourage them and sharpen their basketball minds. Josh is trying to help this team win but he is still too small to finish the way he will be able to in 2 years. Opposing teams also play a hybrid zone defense against us so it’s extremely difficult to score in the paint which is why ayton looks “soft” to you and Jackson looks bad. There’s no outside shooting from this team. Our best players score inside the 3pt line except for booker who’s being smothered every night. What else don’t you get? Add more shooters and a pg and josh and ayton will look so much better

[alamin330]

Has there ever been a lotto pick who's been as bad as Jackson his first two seasons who ended up being good? That's not a retorical question I'm curious of an example or two.


Ayton and Jackson shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. While maybe Ayton doesn't end up the best guy in this class he's going to be a fine player. He's already a positive contibutor. Jackson is negative player and by some measurements literally the worst offensive rotation player in the NBA. There's a huge difference between the two.

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Joe Johnson, Paul George off the top of the head

Go take a look at both their bb reference pages. Paul George was much much better his first two years by all advanced metrics. Hell his advanced stats in year two are better than Devin booker has ever posted in any season. I know you don't like him but Bridges is actually a guy with similar advanced stats his rookie yr as George. Neither put up big counting stats but good indicators were there.

Johnson is closer but his advanced stats were better and he was trending up by year two.

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This is a hard question to answer and a much harder way to evaluate a player. George and iso joe were young guys at different times and different styles of league play. Josh came in to a fast paced 3 pt shooting nba where joe came in before ssol era. Joe and George both played in the east their first 2 years and joe played with guys like thunder dan, penny, Steph Marbury, ShawnMarion. Those guys are basketball legends. Closest thing to a legend josh has played with in the nba is Jamal Crawford. I think for the hand josh has been dealt his first two years he’s been decent. He’s shown flashes and has a ton of upside. I agree that he makes bad decisions at times and still shoots terribly but Every young player has highs and lows and the guys who are fortunate to have veteran leadership during their wonder years don’t have their lows on display like josh does because they will put him in the right spots, tell him what he did wrong and how to improve and they’ll also take them to school during practice. Same ideology applies for bender. If these guys leave Phoenix and can learn from veterans they will become what we thought they would be. It’s not their faults it’s the McDonoughs fault for not surrounding them with leaders. So everything starts from this offseason. Ryan thought he could improve this team by collecting assets in the form of draft picks and never traded them for a star and kept collecting young guys while the team was losing and all the older guys wanted out which is leading to a stunt in their development and turning the fans against them which will turn them against the team and ask for a trade and then go on to shine for their new team.