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Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season

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Cavs 2019-2020 Regular Season 

Post#1 » by jbk1234 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:01 pm

Edit: Cavs have no cap space. They actually have to cut JR or make another move to get below the tax line.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Summer of 2019 FA watch 

Post#2 » by afarmenian » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:56 pm

hopefully they sell it off for picks, this can be a 3 year rebuild if they are smart. Any decent free agent will be just looking to cash in I dont see the point until the team is winning.
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Re: Summer of 2019 FA watch 

Post#3 » by Stillwater » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:27 am

nobody good seems like a reasonable target for the Cavs 1 season removed. This process of retooling will take all season win or lose the young core will get better but depending on the types of moves made at the deadline it still won't be enough to attract any big name players, nor is that the intentions of this org imo.
I think this is a 3 year retool plan myself. A lot of teams have been successful rebuilding on the fly without tanking and I think that is the best option.
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Re: Summer of 2019 FA watch 

Post#4 » by Stillwater » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:14 am

Well here is my way to early tank mock if that is in fact what they are now doing:edit for late season tank if competitive but hanging in the 9-12 range by march. : https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/draft_simulator/view/527851/
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Re: Summer of 2019 FA watch 

Post#5 » by gflem » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:38 pm

I'm not really sure how the lottery is going to work now, but I don't see this team as currently constructed winning more than 20 games. I would think that would put them in the 5-8 range if not lower. I haven't even begun to try to figure out the college players as of yet.
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Re: Summer of 2019 FA watch 

Post#6 » by Stillwater » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:54 pm

gflem wrote:I'm not really sure how the lottery is going to work now, but I don't see this team as currently constructed winning more than 20 games. I would think that would put them in the 5-8 range if not lower. I haven't even begun to try to figure out the college players as of yet.

If they only win 20 games they will be in the top 4.
The lottery is now the top 4 spots not the top 3 and the % to win the 1 is more even at the top 3 than before.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#7 » by jbk1234 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:18 pm

I'll admit that Knight has shown me more than I thought he still had. I'm open to moving both TT and Clarkson for the right offers now. I might even take on 2020 salary if the picks are good enough. I don't see much value in having any more than $20M or so in cap space for the summer of 2020. Cedi is the only keeper on the roster who'll need a new contract any time soon.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#8 » by Stillwater » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:32 pm

jbk1234 wrote:I'll admit that Knight has shown me more than I thought he still had. I'm open to moving both TT and Clarkson for the right offers now. I might even take on 2020 salary if the picks are good enough. I don't see much value in having any more than $20M or so in cap space for the summer of 2020. Cedi is the only keeper on the roster who'll need a new contract any time soon.
Yeah and although Cedi is getting better he is still missing a lot of shots and although a solid passer,not necessarily great at getting the ball to someone in good spots vs just getting the ball to someone because he's out of control etc. I think Cedi is worth retaining for sure, I love his fire and hustle, but I think they can keep him for pretty cheap and won't have to worry about over paying him in his next deal. Knight doesn't look that bad, but I'd rather keep JC
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#9 » by jbk1234 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:36 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I'll admit that Knight has shown me more than I thought he still had. I'm open to moving both TT and Clarkson for the right offers now. I might even take on 2020 salary if the picks are good enough. I don't see much value in having any more than $20M or so in cap space for the summer of 2020. Cedi is the only keeper on the roster who'll need a new contract any time soon.
Yeah and although Cedi is getting better he is still missing a lot of shots and although a solid passer,not necessarily great at getting the ball to someone in good spots vs just getting the ball to someone because he's out of control etc. I think Cedi is worth retaining for sure, I love his fire and hustle, but I think they can keep him for pretty cheap and won't have to worry about over paying him in his next deal. Knight doesn't look that bad, but I'd rather keep JC


I think JC is always going to be a homeless man's Kyrie. When he's shooting efficiently his bench points are great. When he's not, he's not really a positive player on the court. He can't really run an offense, handle/anticipate a double team, and Nance is the only guy he ever passes to. Knight is more of a point guard. You don't need a true PG to run the second unit, but it helps overall production when those guys don't feel starved for touches.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#10 » by Stillwater » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:38 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:I'll admit that Knight has shown me more than I thought he still had. I'm open to moving both TT and Clarkson for the right offers now. I might even take on 2020 salary if the picks are good enough. I don't see much value in having any more than $20M or so in cap space for the summer of 2020. Cedi is the only keeper on the roster who'll need a new contract any time soon.
Yeah and although Cedi is getting better he is still missing a lot of shots and although a solid passer,not necessarily great at getting the ball to someone in good spots vs just getting the ball to someone because he's out of control etc. I think Cedi is worth retaining for sure, I love his fire and hustle, but I think they can keep him for pretty cheap and won't have to worry about over paying him in his next deal. Knight doesn't look that bad, but I'd rather keep JC


I think JC is always going to be a homeless man's Kyrie. When he's shooting efficiently his bench points are great. When he's not, he's not really a positive player on the court. He can't really run an offense, handle/anticipate a double team, and Nance is the only guy he ever passes to. Knight is more of a point guard. You don't need a true PG to run the second unit, but it helps overall production when those guys don't feel starved for touches.

That makes sense, I mean if it came down to it, you could go either one with Delly still on the roster though I think KNight is more expendable until the Cavs get a JC upgrade off the bench,which seems unlikely at this juncture despite him having some stinkers,overall he has been very impressive this season imo.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#11 » by jbk1234 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:42 pm

Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:Yeah and although Cedi is getting better he is still missing a lot of shots and although a solid passer,not necessarily great at getting the ball to someone in good spots vs just getting the ball to someone because he's out of control etc. I think Cedi is worth retaining for sure, I love his fire and hustle, but I think they can keep him for pretty cheap and won't have to worry about over paying him in his next deal. Knight doesn't look that bad, but I'd rather keep JC


I think JC is always going to be a homeless man's Kyrie. When he's shooting efficiently his bench points are great. When he's not, he's not really a positive player on the court. He can't really run an offense, handle/anticipate a double team, and Nance is the only guy he ever passes to. Knight is more of a point guard. You don't need a true PG to run the second unit, but it helps overall production when those guys don't feel starved for touches.

That makes sense, I mean if it came down to it, you could go either one with Delly still on the roster though I think KNight is more expendable until the Cavs get a JC upgrade off the bench,which seems unlikely at this juncture despite him having some stinkers,overall he has been very impressive this season imo.


There's also the reality that other teams will likely view Clarkson's offense and age more favorably and offer value for it. I don't see anyone offering value for Knight - even on an expiring contract.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#12 » by jbk1234 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:48 pm

The tax line for next season is $132M. The Cavs will be in the neighborhood of $136 with JR's contract, or the equivalent of JR's contract, still on the books. You have to stay below the tax line for two years to re-set the repeater tax. Nwaba needs a new deal and I'd like to see the Cavs bring him back. If a good pick isn't offered for JR's deal, it might not be worth it to trade him. Just cut him, realize the savings, and give yourself a little room to work with.
It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#13 » by Stillwater » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:35 pm

jbk1234 wrote:
Stillwater wrote:
jbk1234 wrote:
I think JC is always going to be a homeless man's Kyrie. When he's shooting efficiently his bench points are great. When he's not, he's not really a positive player on the court. He can't really run an offense, handle/anticipate a double team, and Nance is the only guy he ever passes to. Knight is more of a point guard. You don't need a true PG to run the second unit, but it helps overall production when those guys don't feel starved for touches.

That makes sense, I mean if it came down to it, you could go either one with Delly still on the roster though I think KNight is more expendable until the Cavs get a JC upgrade off the bench,which seems unlikely at this juncture despite him having some stinkers,overall he has been very impressive this season imo.


There's also the reality that other teams will likely view Clarkson's offense and age more favorably and offer value for it. I don't see anyone offering value for Knight - even on an expiring contract.

Yeah we shall see, just how much the Cavs value these players staying over keeping others like Nwaba. I would prefer Nwaba and JC over Knight same as other teams for on the court impact,but to me even if it means agreeing to a buyout with Knight,the asking price given his value to the team for JC is probably higher than teams will give up to lose his production
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#14 » by Richfield » Wed Jun 5, 2019 12:31 am

I think I just read somewhere that both Gilbert and Altman were disappointed not to get a pick higher than 5th in the draft lottery.

The gall!

First, Cavs fans are set up to endure a losing 2018-2019 season. Actually that's not first. First, they continuously squandered other high picks of the past many years. If not squandered, used questionably. They win the lottery more than any other team as of late and are STILL right back with worst teams in the league. THEN fans are set up for what we witnessed last season.

Now after tanking when Cavs KNEW the best shot they'd get would be 14%, or slightly higher if you're aiming for a top 2 pick, and taking that gamble, and losing that gamble, they're gonna act like they expected a better pick?? After all the good fortune of recent years in the lottery you didn't expect to eventually come out on the wrong side of the gamble? WAKE UP!

The entitlement is shameful. Tanking is is not how you build a winning team, it's how you build a losing team. And that's what we've got because that's the decisions Gilbert and management have made!

And don't give me the "at least we won a chip" talk. That's not what this is about. It's about tanking and entitlement to high picks, and incompetence. Some people might think having LeBron James on your team for about 10 years could have yielded more than one 'chip, considering he won one half the time in Miami.

Expectations are so LOW with this ownership group and Gilbert wanted to be bailed out again?? He should be disappointed in his own performance before he acts disappointed in a freakin' ping pong ball. He made his own bed. Amazing that guy who works with numbers as much as he does can act disappointed about that lottery result. Either he's being disingenuous or entitled or shifting the blame from himself to a bunch of plastic balls. Take some freakin' responsibility for this.

And the short sightedness as if the 5th pick isn't d**n good enough to do something with. Is he building an excuse for if they pick wrong? There are ALWAYS quality NBA players at the 5th spot. It's his job to find him! Not to scurry from that responsibility with awww shucks we're so unlucky. BULL FEATHERS!!
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#15 » by Revenged25 » Wed Jun 5, 2019 2:18 pm

Richfield wrote:I think I just read somewhere that both Gilbert and Altman were disappointed not to get a pick higher than 5th in the draft lottery.

The gall!

First, Cavs fans are set up to endure a losing 2018-2019 season. Actually that's not first. First, they continuously squandered other high picks of the past many years. If not squandered, used questionably. They win the lottery more than any other team as of late and are STILL right back with worst teams in the league. THEN fans are set up for what we witnessed last season.

Now after tanking when Cavs KNEW the best shot they'd get would be 14%, or slightly higher if you're aiming for a top 2 pick, and taking that gamble, and losing that gamble, they're gonna act like they expected a better pick?? After all the good fortune of recent years in the lottery you didn't expect to eventually come out on the wrong side of the gamble? WAKE UP!

The entitlement is shameful. Tanking is is not how you build a winning team, it's how you build a losing team. And that's what we've got because that's the decisions Gilbert and management have made!

And don't give me the "at least we won a chip" talk. That's not what this is about. It's about tanking and entitlement to high picks, and incompetence. Some people might think having LeBron James on your team for about 10 years could have yielded more than one 'chip, considering he won one half the time in Miami.

Expectations are so LOW with this ownership group and Gilbert wanted to be bailed out again?? He should be disappointed in his own performance before he acts disappointed in a freakin' ping pong ball. He made his own bed. Amazing that guy who works with numbers as much as he does can act disappointed about that lottery result. Either he's being disingenuous or entitled or shifting the blame from himself to a bunch of plastic balls. Take some freakin' responsibility for this.

And the short sightedness as if the 5th pick isn't d**n good enough to do something with. Is he building an excuse for if they pick wrong? There are ALWAYS quality NBA players at the 5th spot. It's his job to find him! Not to scurry from that responsibility with awww shucks we're so unlucky. BULL FEATHERS!!


Philly is where they are now through tanking...

Also the chances of them ending up with a top 4 pick was like 82% or something once they won the tie breaker IIRC, so of course I would be upset for not getting a top 4 pick. It's not like they had a low chance to get a top 4 pick like NO did. Also only 2 of the picks they made ended up bad and only 1 was a questionable decision. EVERYONE would've drafted Kyrie and Wiggins #1 overall at that time. Tristan was highly thought of and although some other players developed well in other places, TT hasn't been a bust, though maybe a let down considering who else could've been drafted. Waiters just didn't mesh well with with team makeup, but he had the talent and showed it when he was given the chance and earned a big payday before getting hurt. Only Anthony Bennett really stood out as a questionable/bad pick and even then you could understand their thinking in getting an uber-athletic scoring stretch PF. Granted other issues derailed his career but at the time of the draft every top prospect had issues. Oladipo's shot was basically Rondo with no shot but great defense, not to mention we had Irving and Waiters, Porter was considered a high-floor, low-ceiling type player that lacked athleticism, Noel had destroyed his knee, Len had foot issues, McLemore was too inconsistent and questions about his desire to play, and Zeller was a good scorer but lacked defense, not to mention we already had TT and his older brother.

I mean the picks all made sense and none were really egregious if you look at circumstances. Granted I wanted Klay/Kawhi in 2011 with Irving to give him a running mate, but they were on the analytics kick at the time and TT blew the others out of the water, not to mention apparently having a great private workout.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#16 » by gflem » Wed Jun 5, 2019 11:20 pm

Revenged25 wrote:
Richfield wrote:I think I just read somewhere that both Gilbert and Altman were disappointed not to get a pick higher than 5th in the draft lottery.

The gall!

The entitlement is shameful. . Take some freakin' responsibility for this.

And the short sightedness as if the 5th pick isn't d**n good enough to do something with. Is he building an excuse for if they pick wrong? There are ALWAYS quality NBA players at the 5th spot. It's his job to find him! Not to scurry from that responsibility with awww shucks we're so unlucky. BULL FEATHERS!!


Philly is where they are now through tanking...

Also the chances of them ending up with a top 4 pick was like 82% or something once they won the tie breaker IIRC, so of course I would be upset for not getting a top 4 pick. It's not like they had a low chance to get a top 4 pick like NO did. Also only 2 of the picks they made ended up bad and only 1 was a questionable decision. EVERYONE would've drafted Kyrie and Wiggins #1 overall at that time. Tristan was highly thought of and although some other players developed well in other places, TT hasn't been a bust, though maybe a let down considering who else could've been drafted. Waiters just didn't mesh well with with team makeup, but he had the talent and showed it when he was given the chance and earned a big payday before getting hurt. Only Anthony Bennett really stood out as a questionable/bad pick and even then you could understand their thinking in getting an uber-athletic scoring stretch PF. Granted other issues derailed his career but at the time of the draft every top prospect had issues. Oladipo's shot was basically Rondo with no shot but great defense, not to mention we had Irving and Waiters, Porter was considered a high-floor, low-ceiling type player that lacked athleticism, Noel had destroyed his knee, Len had foot issues, McLemore was too inconsistent and questions about his desire to play, and Zeller was a good scorer but lacked defense, not to mention we already had TT and his older brother.

I mean the picks all made sense and none were really egregious if you look at circumstances. Granted I wanted Klay/Kawhi in 2011 with Irving to give him a running mate, but they were on the analytics kick at the time and TT blew the others out of the water, not to mention apparently having a great private workout.

Well, OP apparently doesn't realize that in order to get the type of players to placate Lebron the team HAD to overpay vets and trade away assets. Lebron leaves and he has an issue with the team being bad for one season? And Kryrie being an A-Hole was Dan's fault too I suppose?
Of course management was disappointed with being 5th, there was a decent chance they could have been first. Anybody would be hopeful in that position. Being disappointed isn't the same thing as being upset. If it was reported they were upset I would agree with the entitled comment. Obviously I dont.
Dropping even one spot in the draft lottery can be the difference between say, a Lebron type of talent and a Darko Milicic?
It is going to take several more seasons to clear cap, acquire draft assets (and yes, use them correctly), figure out what type of players they have drafted and what type of players to surround the guys who become cornerstones, then go and find them. This isn't a short term thing.
As fans we can either deal with it, criticize the mistakes when they happen, applaud their correct choices, and generally be a fan and root for the team, or we can just rip Dan for being Dan (which I believe most do simply because he is wealthy, outspoken, and not liberal, not judging OP here, just saying), root against their choices (just to prove to themselves how right/smart they are) and bash management for past decisions that have little to no bearing on the current situation.
I prefer to look forward but will not hesitate to hold the decision makers accountable (as much as any fan actually can) if they make glaring mistakes. Gilbert isn't perfect, but I would take him every time over the likes of Ted Stepien, Art Modell, and any of the Indians owners outside of the Jacob's.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#17 » by Richfield » Thu Jun 6, 2019 12:04 am

gflem wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Richfield wrote:I think I just read somewhere that both Gilbert and Altman were disappointed not to get a pick higher than 5th in the draft lottery.

The gall!

The entitlement is shameful. . Take some freakin' responsibility for this.

And the short sightedness as if the 5th pick isn't d**n good enough to do something with. Is he building an excuse for if they pick wrong? There are ALWAYS quality NBA players at the 5th spot. It's his job to find him! Not to scurry from that responsibility with awww shucks we're so unlucky. BULL FEATHERS!!


Philly is where they are now through tanking...

Also the chances of them ending up with a top 4 pick was like 82% or something once they won the tie breaker IIRC, so of course I would be upset for not getting a top 4 pick. It's not like they had a low chance to get a top 4 pick like NO did. Also only 2 of the picks they made ended up bad and only 1 was a questionable decision. EVERYONE would've drafted Kyrie and Wiggins #1 overall at that time. Tristan was highly thought of and although some other players developed well in other places, TT hasn't been a bust, though maybe a let down considering who else could've been drafted. Waiters just didn't mesh well with with team makeup, but he had the talent and showed it when he was given the chance and earned a big payday before getting hurt. Only Anthony Bennett really stood out as a questionable/bad pick and even then you could understand their thinking in getting an uber-athletic scoring stretch PF. Granted other issues derailed his career but at the time of the draft every top prospect had issues. Oladipo's shot was basically Rondo with no shot but great defense, not to mention we had Irving and Waiters, Porter was considered a high-floor, low-ceiling type player that lacked athleticism, Noel had destroyed his knee, Len had foot issues, McLemore was too inconsistent and questions about his desire to play, and Zeller was a good scorer but lacked defense, not to mention we already had TT and his older brother.

I mean the picks all made sense and none were really egregious if you look at circumstances. Granted I wanted Klay/Kawhi in 2011 with Irving to give him a running mate, but they were on the analytics kick at the time and TT blew the others out of the water, not to mention apparently having a great private workout.

Well, OP apparently doesn't realize that in order to get the type of players to placate Lebron the team HAD to overpay vets and trade away assets. Lebron leaves and he has an issue with the team being bad for one season? And Kryrie being an A-Hole was Dan's fault too I suppose?
Of course management was disappointed with being 5th, there was a decent chance they could have been first. Anybody would be hopeful in that position. Being disappointed isn't the same thing as being upset. If it was reported they were upset I would agree with the entitled comment. Obviously I dont.
Dropping even one spot in the draft lottery can be the difference between say, a Lebron type of talent and a Darko Milicic?
It is going to take several more seasons to clear cap, acquire draft assets (and yes, use them correctly), figure out what type of players they have drafted and what type of players to surround the guys who become cornerstones, then go and find them. This isn't a short term thing.
As fans we can either deal with it, criticize the mistakes when they happen, applaud their correct choices, and generally be a fan and root for the team, or we can just rip Dan for being Dan (which I believe most do simply because he is wealthy, outspoken, and not liberal, not judging OP here, just saying), root against their choices (just to prove to themselves how right/smart they are) and bash management for past decisions that have little to no bearing on the current situation.
I prefer to look forward but will not hesitate to hold the decision makers accountable (as much as any fan actually can) if they make glaring mistakes. Gilbert isn't perfect, but I would take him every time over the likes of Ted Stepien, Art Modell, and any of the Indians owners outside of the Jacob's.


Philly is where they are now, watching the playoffs from home. Why do you assume they'd be worse off had they chose to build with good management, a la the Spurs or the '04 Pistons or Warriors or any other Champion that chose NOT to tank?

LeBron left the first time for a reason.. management.

Kyrie was an upset a-hole for a reason.. management. And their constant placating of LeBron.

Gambling with ping pong balls might be fun for some, but you know what's a better bet than a 14% long shot? Having good management in the front office.

Would you rather build something that lasts with good management, something sustainable long term? Perhaps win multiple championships over a 20 year span and have winning teams every year like the Spurs? Or would you rather be perennial losers most seasons, and hope to get lucky with one championship when the stars align in your favor?

Not every draft choice will be a good one, but if you have good management, you'll get it right or make trades in your favor a lot more than you mess situations up.

How many former Cavs play better on other teams than they play on the Cavs? Could we have gotten any less from Jae Crowder, Dwyane Wade, Danny Green, or any of the other of the uncountable players we squandered in order to appease a crybaby? Good management does what Riley did when a player tries to get a coach canned. And it pays off in MULTIPLE rings. 2 in 4 years in that case.

Like I said, expectations so low in Cleveland, it's been passed on and sold to the fans. Every time you get that shiney new high draft pick it usually means you just missed the playoffs and won't be anywhere close for years. And in 4 years when you think you have a chance, that player wants out because of why? Again, bad management. And the cycle continues. Look at the owners/managers you compared for would you rather have.. why did you name those guys? Not the most successful? Look at how we think? "At least we're not ________ (even worse choice). " That's low expectation thinking.

That's why I have a problem with Gilbert's comments. He's selling you further low expectations, and you're buying. Instead he could be focused on looking for the next Kawhi or Giannis or other steal. He's selling you that this draft is weak. So if he picks poorly, blame it on that, not him. There are ALWAYS excellent picks at #5 available. 9 times out of 10, or higher percentage than the freakin draft lottery for sure.

Being rich is great if you can be. But it doesn't make you a good manager. What it does do is help you mask some of the mistakes that show what a bad manager you really are.

LeBron had his own legacy to save, and could have come back and built with the team over an extended period of time if he wanted to win a ring and Cleveland. Could have held on to a future and let LeBron make the necessary adjustments. Instead they gave him everything he cried for so he could contend instantly and then bounce again as soon as mf possible. FA payers would have come to join the team if they knew LeBron would stay more than a year. But in all that placating Cavs set conditions for him to bounce at any time and leave us with nothing in return. Cavs didn't realize how powerful they were, with Kyrie and others, and acted like they needed an outside savior, and behaved as such, selling low and buying high.

And don't get me started with that d**n letter. Do you think that attracted quality free agents to come also?

Darko happened to be a bad pick. Pistons missed. Bosh or Dwayne Wade would have been an excellent choice. You can't argue your point with Darko. Miami won a championship with Wade and attracted LeBron to join him before Cleveland ever won one with LeBron and failed to win one with Wade. Wade's worst year in the NBA was his time with Cleveland. We take the value right out of potential contributors with our constant placating of everything LeBron wants, including narratives. He asked where his teammate was and all you heard from the org insiders was how disrespectful he was being for asking a question about Kevin Love. That season was such a disaster I don't know where to begin or finish. And that was WITH LeBron. Imagine (not that you have to) how bad Cavs are without him.

We ARE all witnesses.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#18 » by jbk1234 » Thu Jun 6, 2019 3:59 am

Richfield wrote:
gflem wrote:
Revenged25 wrote:
Philly is where they are now through tanking...

Also the chances of them ending up with a top 4 pick was like 82% or something once they won the tie breaker IIRC, so of course I would be upset for not getting a top 4 pick. It's not like they had a low chance to get a top 4 pick like NO did. Also only 2 of the picks they made ended up bad and only 1 was a questionable decision. EVERYONE would've drafted Kyrie and Wiggins #1 overall at that time. Tristan was highly thought of and although some other players developed well in other places, TT hasn't been a bust, though maybe a let down considering who else could've been drafted. Waiters just didn't mesh well with with team makeup, but he had the talent and showed it when he was given the chance and earned a big payday before getting hurt. Only Anthony Bennett really stood out as a questionable/bad pick and even then you could understand their thinking in getting an uber-athletic scoring stretch PF. Granted other issues derailed his career but at the time of the draft every top prospect had issues. Oladipo's shot was basically Rondo with no shot but great defense, not to mention we had Irving and Waiters, Porter was considered a high-floor, low-ceiling type player that lacked athleticism, Noel had destroyed his knee, Len had foot issues, McLemore was too inconsistent and questions about his desire to play, and Zeller was a good scorer but lacked defense, not to mention we already had TT and his older brother.

I mean the picks all made sense and none were really egregious if you look at circumstances. Granted I wanted Klay/Kawhi in 2011 with Irving to give him a running mate, but they were on the analytics kick at the time and TT blew the others out of the water, not to mention apparently having a great private workout.

Well, OP apparently doesn't realize that in order to get the type of players to placate Lebron the team HAD to overpay vets and trade away assets. Lebron leaves and he has an issue with the team being bad for one season? And Kryrie being an A-Hole was Dan's fault too I suppose?
Of course management was disappointed with being 5th, there was a decent chance they could have been first. Anybody would be hopeful in that position. Being disappointed isn't the same thing as being upset. If it was reported they were upset I would agree with the entitled comment. Obviously I dont.
Dropping even one spot in the draft lottery can be the difference between say, a Lebron type of talent and a Darko Milicic?
It is going to take several more seasons to clear cap, acquire draft assets (and yes, use them correctly), figure out what type of players they have drafted and what type of players to surround the guys who become cornerstones, then go and find them. This isn't a short term thing.
As fans we can either deal with it, criticize the mistakes when they happen, applaud their correct choices, and generally be a fan and root for the team, or we can just rip Dan for being Dan (which I believe most do simply because he is wealthy, outspoken, and not liberal, not judging OP here, just saying), root against their choices (just to prove to themselves how right/smart they are) and bash management for past decisions that have little to no bearing on the current situation.
I prefer to look forward but will not hesitate to hold the decision makers accountable (as much as any fan actually can) if they make glaring mistakes. Gilbert isn't perfect, but I would take him every time over the likes of Ted Stepien, Art Modell, and any of the Indians owners outside of the Jacob's.


Philly is where they are now, watching the playoffs from home. Why do you assume they'd be worse off had they chose to build with good management, a la the Spurs or the '04 Pistons or Warriors or any other Champion that chose NOT to tank?

LeBron left the first time for a reason.. management.

Kyrie was an upset a-hole for a reason.. management. And their constant placating of LeBron.

Gambling with ping pong balls might be fun for some, but you know what's a better bet than a 14% long shot? Having good management in the front office.

Would you rather build something that lasts with good management, something sustainable long term? Perhaps win multiple championships over a 20 year span and have winning teams every year like the Spurs? Or would you rather be perennial losers most seasons, and hope to get lucky with one championship when the stars align in your favor?

Not every draft choice will be a good one, but if you have good management, you'll get it right or make trades in your favor a lot more than you mess situations up.

How many former Cavs play better on other teams than they play on the Cavs? Could we have gotten any less from Jae Crowder, Dwyane Wade, Danny Green, or any of the other of the uncountable players we squandered in order to appease a crybaby? Good management does what Riley did when a player tries to get a coach canned. And it pays off in MULTIPLE rings. 2 in 4 years in that case.

Like I said, expectations so low in Cleveland, it's been passed on and sold to the fans. Every time you get that shiney new high draft pick it usually means you just missed the playoffs and won't be anywhere close for years. And in 4 years when you think you have a chance, that player wants out because of why? Again, bad management. And the cycle continues. Look at the owners/managers you compared for would you rather have.. why did you name those guys? Not the most successful? Look at how we think? "At least we're not ________ (even worse choice). " That's low expectation thinking.

That's why I have a problem with Gilbert's comments. He's selling you further low expectations, and you're buying. Instead he could be focused on looking for the next Kawhi or Giannis or other steal. He's selling you that this draft is weak. So if he picks poorly, blame it on that, not him. There are ALWAYS excellent picks at #5 available. 9 times out of 10, or higher percentage than the freakin draft lottery for sure.

Being rich is great if you can be. But it doesn't make you a good manager. What it does do is help you mask some of the mistakes that show what a bad manager you really are.

LeBron had his own legacy to save, and could have come back and built with the team over an extended period of time if he wanted to win a ring and Cleveland. Could have held on to a future and let LeBron make the necessary adjustments. Instead they gave him everything he cried for so he could contend instantly and then bounce again as soon as mf possible. FA payers would have come to join the team if they knew LeBron would stay more than a year. But in all that placating Cavs set conditions for him to bounce at any time and leave us with nothing in return. Cavs didn't realize how powerful they were, with Kyrie and others, and acted like they needed an outside savior, and behaved as such, selling low and buying high.

And don't get me started with that d**n letter. Do you think that attracted quality free agents to come also?

Darko happened to be a bad pick. Pistons missed. Bosh or Dwayne Wade would have been an excellent choice. You can't argue your point with Darko. Miami won a championship with Wade and attracted LeBron to join him before Cleveland ever won one with LeBron and failed to win one with Wade. Wade's worst year in the NBA was his time with Cleveland. We take the value right out of potential contributors with our constant placating of everything LeBron wants, including narratives. He asked where his teammate was and all you heard from the org insiders was how disrespectful he was being for asking a question about Kevin Love. That season was such a disaster I don't know where to begin or finish. And that was WITH LeBron. Imagine (not that you have to) how bad Cavs are without him.

We ARE all witnesses.
There's a whole lot of revisionism going on in this thread. How did things go with Kyrie in Boston? If LBJ likes good management, why did he leave Miami and eventually go the Lakers who were mismanaged for half a decade before he got there. Speaking of which, how are things going for LBJ in L.A. now that he's out from under Gilbert?

Dwayne Wade was flat out awful in the first round for the Bulls the year before he came here. They paid him $15M the following summer to go play for someone else. Dude was cashed. He had 10-15 solid minutes per game left and that didn't really change when he went back to Miami.

Danny Green did two stints in the D League before finally breaking out with the Spurs. It took him a long time to develop. The best thing about Crowder has always been his contract. He's a rotation player period. A good backup but a meh starter. There's a reason Jazz fans include him in trade proposals.

The Cavs have been well managed under Gilbert's tenure. There have been a couple notable mistakes, e.g. the letter and Bennett, but all in all, we're fortunate he owns the team. There are far worse run organizations in the NBA.

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It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#19 » by Richfield » Thu Jun 6, 2019 4:22 am

Never said i wanted Crowder or expected much from him. But he got even worse in Cleveland. Looks more himself in Utah, and Jazz fans are correct. He’s always been slightly overrated.

Kyrie in Boston was a guy not used to playing in a system matched with a system not used to playing with a guy like Kyrie. And when he took on LeBron like attitude (LBJ attitude was a bad influence on Kyrie’s career), it was over. I liked the Kyrie we had pre-LeBron. The I want Kobe 1 on 1 Kyrie. 4th quarter clutch Kyrie. That team was starting to get better and better and then LBJ jumped in the picture as if he brought these know nothings into existence.

Also never said LBJ likes good management. In fact he fears it. But he didnt think he could win in Cleveland after we made no moves in 7 years to bring allstars in to play with him. It was always LeBron plus shooter specialists ans defender specialists. Rarely a two way player or anybody who could finish over guys. Add to that MIKE FREAKIN BROWN without trying something new when it didnt work, and LeBron knew he had no shot here. When he went to LA he thougjt he’d join young guns again before they hit star status and take the credit again. Hes making fair efforts to do exactly what he did in Cleveland the second time. After one year its not working out so far. Although he did almost get his guys in Davis and Lue before Magic fired himself.

Green is Green. Serviceable to any contender. Yea he had to work his way up to that, but why draft him at all if youre not going to invest in his development. And 3 years is not a "long time" when you're drafted forty somethingth. The signs of being who he was a few years later were there in his rookie season in Cleveland. Spurs actually developed him, and yes that included the D-League and even cutting him I think. They were obviously in control of the situation.

Wade is a lot better than you give him credit for. Sure he was old and body deteriorating, but Cavs traded him for nothing before he before he hits his most valuable part of the season, the playoffs when he has time to recover between games.

I could keep going. How about Isaiah Thomas? Want to give me your version of what happened there before I revise that too?

Mike freakin Brown. TWICE!
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Re: Cavs 2019 off-season 

Post#20 » by jbk1234 » Thu Jun 6, 2019 6:01 am

Richfield wrote:Never said i wanted Crowder or expected much from him. But he got even worse in Cleveland. Looks more himself in Utah, and Jazz fans are correct. He’s always been slightly overrated.

Kyrie in Boston was a guy not used to playing in a system matched with a system not used to playing with a guy like Kyrie. And when he took on LeBron like attitude (LBJ attitude was a bad influence on Kyrie’s career), it was over. I liked the Kyrie we had pre-LeBron. The I want Kobe 1 on 1 Kyrie. 4th quarter clutch Kyrie. That team was starting to get better and better and then LBJ jumped in the picture as if he brought these know nothings into existence.

Also never said LBJ likes good management. In fact he fears it. But he didnt think he could win in Cleveland after we made no moves in 7 years to bring allstars in to play with him. It was always LeBron plus shooter specialists ans defender specialists. Rarely a two way player or anybody who could finish over guys. Add to that MIKE FREAKIN BROWN without trying something new when it didnt work, and LeBron knew he had no shot here. When he went to LA he thougjt he’d join young guns again before they hit star status and take the credit again. Hes making fair efforts to do exactly what he did in Cleveland the second time. After one year its not working out so far. Although he did almost get his guys in Davis and Lue before Magic fired himself.

Green is Green. Serviceable to any contender. Yea he had to work his way up to that, but why draft him at all if youre not going to invest in his development. And 3 years is not a "long time" when you're drafted forty somethingth. The signs of being who he was a few years later were there in his rookie season in Cleveland. Spurs actually developed him, and yes that included the D-League and even cutting him I think. They were obviously in control of the situation.

Wade is a lot better than you give him credit for. Sure he was old and body deteriorating, but Cavs traded him for nothing before he before he hits his most valuable part of the season, the playoffs when he has time to recover between games.

I could keep going. How about Isaiah Thomas? Want to give me your version of what happened there before I revise that too?

Mike freakin Brown. TWICE!
IT had a busted hip when we he was included in the Kyrie trade, and I say included because Boston wasn't keeping him. He should've had surgery that summer but he was worried it would impact his next contract. How many minutes did he get on a near minimum contract last year? He's a free agent again this summer. Who is signing him and for how much? I wouldn't be shocked if dude is playing in China in the next two years.

This reality you envision where these guys leave Cleveland and ball out only exists in your head.

As far as Brown, he became a defensive assistant once this became a three point league. His entire philosophy became obsolete.

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It is highly unlikely that the Cavs will agree with your Kevin Love evaluation for the purpose of a trade.

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