Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: #ValleyBoyz rise up

[bwgood77]

Perfectly respectable take. You make a good point about balancing defensive styles. We agree on Clarke of course because obviously. The JJ/TJ question is the substantial issue for the franchise this summer. Not surprising that we would find ourselves on either side of it. It's a good question.

Playing devils advocate a bit, but if Clarke is so good, why wont he shoot up the draft boards? and if he is truly a sleep, whats the reason why phoenix would be the ones to actually pick him?

Because 23 year olds dont get drafted in the top 10 anymore. Thats his biggest downside is his age, teams want youngsters bursting with potential rather than already established older players, with the hopes that the younger player will surpass what that elder player has been doing. Teams also look at it this way, sure Clarke has been playing superbly, but if he was all that great, everyone would have seen that much sooner and he would have been a one-and-done player rather than need 3 years of college to establish what he can do.

Its the age old add-edge, take the player with a higher ceiling and more question-marks (Younger), or the player with the higher floor and is more established and seasoned (Older).

It's kind of dumb if that really is the case due to the quick impact of Duncan, Draymond Green, David Robinson, Kareem, Hakeem, Curry, Thompson (both 3 year players like Clarke), etc...so basically the entire core who won a record breaking # of games. Barnes was their only one and done guy and he was the least valuable.

The fact that many teams don't draft them in the top 10 anymore doesn't mean it's the right move unless they are a sure fire superstar....the bust chances are far higher and they can't contribute as fast.

That being said, I will be very surprised if Clarke slips past 10 due to his increasing buzz....and a team like us simply needs his skillset more than the wings available in the 4-7 range. I wouldn't mind Garland due to his apparent shooting range and smart ball handling/highest rated PG coming into the year, but there is a bit of a risk not playing much this year.

If a guy like Clarke is a perfect fit and what you need, it's dumb to try and assume you can make a trade to move up just so you take him where you think he may slide to.

Given he has the highest BPM in years other than Zion and AD is no joke. Younger players have more upside left because they simply are not as good, but even if they improve quite a bit they very likely won't even get to where he is now. Given his tremendous growth this year at 23, he should still have tons of upside left.

[bwgood77]

I'm not an NFL guy but this OBJ trade seems to be a big thing. Can someone come up with an NBA trade that would be equivalent to this OBJ trade so I can comprehend how big of a deal this is?

Thank you

Westbrook being traded.

No, probably more like a Blake Griffin. Not at a position where you lead a team but still top tier at a position, a bit injury prone, and a guy who was on good teams in past but then on a rebuilding team making a lot of money.

[BobbieL]

Playing devils advocate a bit, but if Clarke is so good, why wont he shoot up the draft boards? and if he is truly a sleep, whats the reason why phoenix would be the ones to actually pick him?

Because 23 year olds dont get drafted in the top 10 anymore. Thats his biggest downside is his age, teams want youngsters bursting with potential rather than already established older players, with the hopes that the younger player will surpass what that elder player has been doing. Teams also look at it this way, sure Clarke has been playing superbly, but if he was all that great, everyone would have seen that much sooner and he would have been a one-and-done player rather than need 3 years of college to establish what he can do.

Its the age old add-edge, take the player with a higher ceiling and more question-marks (Younger), or the player with the higher floor and is more established and seasoned (Older).

It's kind of dumb if that really is the case due to the quick impact of Duncan, Draymond Green, David Robinson, Kareem, Hakeem, Curry, Thompson (both 3 year players like Clarke), etc...so basically the entire core who won a record breaking # of games. Barnes was their only one and done guy and he was the least valuable.

The fact that many teams don't draft them in the top 10 anymore doesn't mean it's the right move unless they are a sure fire superstar....the bust chances are far higher and they can't contribute as fast.

That being said, I will be very surprised if Clarke slips past 10 due to his increasing buzz....and a team like us simply needs his skillset more than the wings available in the 4-7 range. I wouldn't mind Garland due to his apparent shooting range and smart ball handling/highest rated PG coming into the year, but there is a bit of a risk not playing much this year.

If a guy like Clarke is a perfect fit and what you need, it's dumb to try and assume you can make a trade to move up just so you take him where you think he may slide to.

Given he has the highest BPM in years other than Zion and AD is no joke. Younger players have more upside left because they simply are not as good, but even if they improve quite a bit they very likely won't even get to where he is now. Given his tremendous growth this year at 23, he should still have tons of upside left.

I like the fact that Clarke is older like Bridges and more established. Need a guy that can contribute quicker. I still prefer to probably trade the pick if its not zion but that gets tricky as what is the return coming back. The timing of the draft, the team and the player. Suns should have a top 5 pick - so need to get value and just not a trade for a veteran to get a veteran.

[BobbieL]

I agree with frank in that we should run tjo/booker/melton at point next year. It's clear he's exactly the type of PG we need next to booker. tjo's money situation next year isn't great but his next contract will be. Instead of going all out for a max contract pg and jeopardizing breaking up some great team chemistry and young guys that are still honing in on their spots I think we should exclusively be trying to upgrade the 4. Imagine if we had defense and 3 point production from the 4 spot. I like some of the names thrown around to the tune of nance/vonleh/kleber.. all of which should come at a price that would let us keep KOj and holmes.

Yeah I agree that Johnson is the type of PG that fits well with Booker. Defensive, 3pt shooting, enough handle and creation to run the O at times but not a guy who needs a super high usage because you want booker creating too.

Now someone who does these things at a higher level is probably needed long term. Melton has some traits to do it but is obviously raw. So I'd roll with this unless a better option presented itself.

Holliday could be that better option, he's a little higher usage and not as good of a 3pt shooter as the theoretical perfect fit but close enough all around.

But if someone like that isn't available then just dedicate your resources in finding a good PF for this core.

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I am good with rolling Tyler and Melton next too Booker as opposed to signing like Rozier. As based on recent player, the Suns do need a 4 next to Ayton that can defend, block shots, etc. I think it will take moving Jackson or Warren to free up more cap space. Or moving the 2019 FRP.

[MathiasPW]

I am still stuck at the mindset that, if we will have a rookie as a starter or playing a very important role, I'd rather trade the pick. So, even if we draft a more established guy like Clark, there is a high(er) chance we miss the playoffs again, and I honestly fear for the teams morale if we fail yet another season.

At this point I think we have enough young talent, and I'd take experience and physical maturity over potential (in most cases, except if the potential is sky high).

I'll take Tyler Johnson (assuming recent play is the norm, not the exception) over Ja Morant. I'll take Thad Young or Derrick Favors over Clarke.

But I'd take Zion over any of these, and then probably trade the oldest players that are more tired of losing (Booker, Warren) and build around the younger guys again.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I am still stuck at the mindset that, if we will have a rookie as a starter or playing a very important role, I'd rather trade the pick. So, even if we draft a more established guy like Clark, there is a high(er) chance we miss the playoffs again, and I honestly fear for the teams morale if we fail yet another season.

At this point I think we have enough young talent, and I'd take experience and physical maturity over potential (in most cases, except if the potential is sky high).

I'll take Tyler Johnson (assuming recent play is the norm, not the exception) over Ja Morant. I'll take Thad Young or Derrick Favors over Clarke.

But I'd take Zion over any of these, and then probably trade the oldest players that are more tired of losing (Booker, Warren) and build around the younger guys again.

If the mindset is playoffs or bust next year I think that's setting up for failure. The west is still going to be hard as hell and it would take a gigantic jump to make the playoffs. I think the goal should be improvement and a season like the kings are having right now would be considered a success.

I agree that I wouldn't want any rookie from this class outside of Zion starting next season. It's just not that good of a class. I'm cool trading the pick but because it's not a great class I question if a good trade will be there. If not then just draft the BPA and bring them along as slowly as needed. Like if it's Ja or Garland you start Johnson and make that guy battle it out for PT off the bench.

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[Fo-Real]

Anyone else worried about chemistry and roles going forward with this logjam at SF?

Everything looks peachy while TJ is out, but he comes back playing at least 25 mins, we might see Oubre's minutes go down (which I don't think should happen) and definitely Jackson's.

Playing time = money.

Jackson will be a 3rd year player next year, Oubre is playing for a contract right now.

Any chance this gets dicey like it did with Bledsoe/Goran/IT?

I dont think we keep both Tj and Jackson this off-season. I also dont see a real issue since we dont really have a real set of positions in place. Book and Tyler are both two guards playing both pg and sg. We have no real back up sg, and Bridges and Jackson play anywhere between Sg, Sf, to Pf. The fact that Oubre and Warren both size wise match up with Sf's and Pf's and we have no better options at Pf, the only real question is who's minutes get cut and right now that is DRAGON BUST BENDER. Hopefully we both sign Oubre and aquire an actual Pf, THEN things get dicey only if we dont get rid of one of Warren or Josh, I prefer the energy of Josh over the iso scoring of Warren but thats just me.

[BobbieL]

I am still stuck at the mindset that, if we will have a rookie as a starter or playing a very important role, I'd rather trade the pick. So, even if we draft a more established guy like Clark, there is a high(er) chance we miss the playoffs again, and I honestly fear for the teams morale if we fail yet another season.

At this point I think we have enough young talent, and I'd take experience and physical maturity over potential (in most cases, except if the potential is sky high).

I'll take Tyler Johnson (assuming recent play is the norm, not the exception) over Ja Morant. I'll take Thad Young or Derrick Favors over Clarke.

But I'd take Zion over any of these, and then probably trade the oldest players that are more tired of losing (Booker, Warren) and build around the younger guys again.

If the mindset is playoffs or bust next year I think that's setting up for failure. The west is still going to be hard as hell and it would take a gigantic jump to make the playoffs. I think the goal should be improvement and a season like the kings are having right now would be considered a success.

I agree that I wouldn't want any rookie from this class outside of Zion starting next season. It's just not that good of a class. I'm cool trading the pick but because it's not a great class I question if a good trade will be there. If not then just draft the BPA and bring them along as slowly as needed. Like if it's Ja or Garland you start Johnson and make that guy battle it out for PT off the bench.

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I agree the odds of making the playoffs next year are not very good as the West is so competitive. But like you said, a Kings like improvement to mid 30's wins would be nice to start showing something longer term.

It does get tricky with the pick because the draft is not great so who is going to want the draft pick for not a great draft. So, in that regard - might be able to bring them along slowly. Or possibly, trade back down and get a solid veteran role player, not star, role player that helps your roster plus still a top 10 first round pick. Suns are in a very tricky spot with the cap hold for Oubre, the Tyler contract, what to do with Jackson and Warren and the nominal cap space where they need a solid 4.

[Fo-Real]

With this team scoring like it is without a real Pf (Bender being.... well, and TJ being out), Booker, Ayton and the fact that Oubre is looking like the other go to scorer and Johnson scoring when needed. Is there any chance we go with a straight defender at Pf in free-agency to put next to Ayton roaming the boards and blocking shots when Booker's man gets by him? I know he is a Rich Paul client but can you imagine the defense if you add Nerlens Noel to it? Just a quick thought, I love the energy and defense Oubre brings and the ability it gives us to get out and run, I can also imagine if Oubre and Noel were teamed up doing it together with Tyler doing his thing too. Not just scrappy but maybe staunch!

[bwgood77]

I am still stuck at the mindset that, if we will have a rookie as a starter or playing a very important role, I'd rather trade the pick. So, even if we draft a more established guy like Clark, there is a high(er) chance we miss the playoffs again, and I honestly fear for the teams morale if we fail yet another season.

At this point I think we have enough young talent, and I'd take experience and physical maturity over potential (in most cases, except if the potential is sky high).

I'll take Tyler Johnson (assuming recent play is the norm, not the exception) over Ja Morant. I'll take Thad Young or Derrick Favors over Clarke.

But I'd take Zion over any of these, and then probably trade the oldest players that are more tired of losing (Booker, Warren) and build around the younger guys again.

I think it depends on the player. If those guys are available, I think they are good options, but I'd still prefer the guy who mirrors Zion in stats and is only 23, and would be on a rookie contract for 4 years. I don't necessarily expect to make the playoffs regardless, but even without a solid PF, if we continue to play like we have as of late, we could really surprise people and make a push, and that's before adding a guy like Clarke.

Favors and Young are playing very well this year though, but I don't know that Favors is a great fit next to Ayton....though staggering could be good..I'd probably let Holmes go unless he was really cheap. I don't know that the Pacers let Thad go either, though I know he's a FA and they have Sabonis, but they have plenty of cap space to keep that team together and depth never hurts. Those guys seem a bit out of the age range we are looking for anyway.

[Waylay13]

Perfectly respectable take. You make a good point about balancing defensive styles. We agree on Clarke of course because obviously. The JJ/TJ question is the substantial issue for the franchise this summer. Not surprising that we would find ourselves on either side of it. It's a good question.

Playing devils advocate a bit, but if Clarke is so good, why wont he shoot up the draft boards? and if he is truly a sleep, whats the reason why phoenix would be the ones to actually pick him?

Because 23 year olds dont get drafted in the top 10 anymore. Thats his biggest downside is his age, teams want youngsters bursting with potential rather than already established older players, with the hopes that the younger player will surpass what that elder player has been doing. Teams also look at it this way, sure Clarke has been playing superbly, but if he was all that great, everyone would have seen that much sooner and he would have been a one-and-done player rather than need 3 years of college to establish what he can do.

Its the age old add-edge, take the player with a higher ceiling and more question-marks (Younger), or the player with the higher floor and is more established and seasoned (Older).

Here I thought the biggest issue with Clarke is that he is 6'8" and 215 lbs. In other words a power forward who is the same height as Warren and Jackson and with less weight than Warren.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Playing devils advocate a bit, but if Clarke is so good, why wont he shoot up the draft boards? and if he is truly a sleep, whats the reason why phoenix would be the ones to actually pick him?

Because 23 year olds dont get drafted in the top 10 anymore. Thats his biggest downside is his age, teams want youngsters bursting with potential rather than already established older players, with the hopes that the younger player will surpass what that elder player has been doing. Teams also look at it this way, sure Clarke has been playing superbly, but if he was all that great, everyone would have seen that much sooner and he would have been a one-and-done player rather than need 3 years of college to establish what he can do.

Its the age old add-edge, take the player with a higher ceiling and more question-marks (Younger), or the player with the higher floor and is more established and seasoned (Older).

Here I thought the biggest issue with Clarke is that he is 6'8" and 215 lbs. In other words a power forward who is the same height as Warren and Jackson and with less weight than Warren.

I was just thinking about the height thing with Clarke. Measurements will be important for him. If he's actually any smaller than 6'8 that could hurt his stock.

Side note, it's probably been brought up before but I just realized Clarke played high school ball here in AZ at desert Vista. That's cool he'd definitely fit the valley boyzz theme

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[MathiasPW]

I am still stuck at the mindset that, if we will have a rookie as a starter or playing a very important role, I'd rather trade the pick. So, even if we draft a more established guy like Clark, there is a high(er) chance we miss the playoffs again, and I honestly fear for the teams morale if we fail yet another season.

At this point I think we have enough young talent, and I'd take experience and physical maturity over potential (in most cases, except if the potential is sky high).

I'll take Tyler Johnson (assuming recent play is the norm, not the exception) over Ja Morant. I'll take Thad Young or Derrick Favors over Clarke.

But I'd take Zion over any of these, and then probably trade the oldest players that are more tired of losing (Booker, Warren) and build around the younger guys again.

I think it depends on the player. If those guys are available, I think they are good options, but I'd still prefer the guy who mirrors Zion in stats and is only 23, and would be on a rookie contract for 4 years. I don't necessarily expect to make the playoffs regardless, but even without a solid PF, if we continue to play like we have as of late, we could really surprise people and make a push, and that's before adding a guy like Clarke.

Favors and Young are playing very well this year though, but I don't know that Favors is a great fit next to Ayton....though staggering could be good..I'd probably let Holmes go unless he was really cheap. I don't know that the Pacers let Thad go either, though I know he's a FA and they have Sabonis, but they have plenty of cap space to keep that team together and depth never hurts. Those guys seem a bit out of the age range we are looking for anyway.

On Favors and Ayton pairing, I don't see it as bad as the Favors/Gobert one. In our case, Favors would act as Gobert, while Ayton would act as Bender, due to his mobility. I think it can work.

[Frank Lee]

Anyone else worried about chemistry and roles going forward with this logjam at SF?

Everything looks peachy while TJ is out, but he comes back playing at least 25 mins, we might see Oubre's minutes go down (which I don't think should happen) and definitely Jackson's.

Playing time = money.

Jackson will be a 3rd year player next year, Oubre is playing for a contract right now.

Any chance this gets dicey like it did with Bledsoe/Goran/IT?

I dont think we keep both Tj and Jackson this off-season. I also dont see a real issue since we dont really have a real set of positions in place. Book and Tyler are both two guards playing both pg and sg. We have no real back up sg, and Bridges and Jackson play anywhere between Sg, Sf, to Pf. The fact that Oubre and Warren both size wise match up with Sf's and Pf's and we have no better options at Pf, the only real question is who's minutes get cut and right now that is DRAGON BUST BENDER. Hopefully we both sign Oubre and aquire an actual Pf, THEN things get dicey only if we dont get rid of one of Warren or Josh, I prefer the energy of Josh over the iso scoring of Warren but thats just me.

I'm thinking Jackson bought his odd man out ticket when he made James Jones run down to Frys and apologetically buy 12 packs for 100 fans. May be it wasnt Josh's fault... but his unremorseful hokie whitewashing apology was over shadowed by the tweeted BDay picks and the hefty fine.

It would be OK with me if they we able to turn Jackson and the Milw pick into a mid pick. A classic move up for player X. much like with Bridges. Possible to turn him into Clarke or Sekou another PF who grades out ? Personally, Im starting to lean to Hachimura... great athlete, already has the strength... and a 7'2 span.

[BobbieL]

Anyone else worried about chemistry and roles going forward with this logjam at SF?

Everything looks peachy while TJ is out, but he comes back playing at least 25 mins, we might see Oubre's minutes go down (which I don't think should happen) and definitely Jackson's.

Playing time = money.

Jackson will be a 3rd year player next year, Oubre is playing for a contract right now.

Any chance this gets dicey like it did with Bledsoe/Goran/IT?

I dont think we keep both Tj and Jackson this off-season. I also dont see a real issue since we dont really have a real set of positions in place. Book and Tyler are both two guards playing both pg and sg. We have no real back up sg, and Bridges and Jackson play anywhere between Sg, Sf, to Pf. The fact that Oubre and Warren both size wise match up with Sf's and Pf's and we have no better options at Pf, the only real question is who's minutes get cut and right now that is DRAGON BUST BENDER. Hopefully we both sign Oubre and aquire an actual Pf, THEN things get dicey only if we dont get rid of one of Warren or Josh, I prefer the energy of Josh over the iso scoring of Warren but thats just me.

I'm thinking Jackson bought his odd man out ticket when he made James Jones run down to Frys and apologetically buy 12 packs for 100 fans. May be it wasnt Josh's fault... but his unremorseful hokie whitewashing apology was over shadowed by the tweeted BDay picks and the hefty fine.

It would be OK with me if they we able to turn Jackson and the Milw pick into a mid pick. A classic move up for player X. much like with Bridges. Possible to turn him into Clarke or Sekou another PF who grades out ?

A mid round pick in 2020! I want the cap space this year actually If the Suns can get to around 12-13m of cap space while keeping Oubre, Holmes and the 2019 FRP - that would be an okay solution. It means rolling with Tyler J at PG - which I am good with but giving yourself enough cap space to maybe make a run at Kleber or sign Aminu.

[bwgood77]

I am still stuck at the mindset that, if we will have a rookie as a starter or playing a very important role, I'd rather trade the pick. So, even if we draft a more established guy like Clark, there is a high(er) chance we miss the playoffs again, and I honestly fear for the teams morale if we fail yet another season.

At this point I think we have enough young talent, and I'd take experience and physical maturity over potential (in most cases, except if the potential is sky high).

I'll take Tyler Johnson (assuming recent play is the norm, not the exception) over Ja Morant. I'll take Thad Young or Derrick Favors over Clarke.

But I'd take Zion over any of these, and then probably trade the oldest players that are more tired of losing (Booker, Warren) and build around the younger guys again.

I think it depends on the player. If those guys are available, I think they are good options, but I'd still prefer the guy who mirrors Zion in stats and is only 23, and would be on a rookie contract for 4 years. I don't necessarily expect to make the playoffs regardless, but even without a solid PF, if we continue to play like we have as of late, we could really surprise people and make a push, and that's before adding a guy like Clarke.

Favors and Young are playing very well this year though, but I don't know that Favors is a great fit next to Ayton....though staggering could be good..I'd probably let Holmes go unless he was really cheap. I don't know that the Pacers let Thad go either, though I know he's a FA and they have Sabonis, but they have plenty of cap space to keep that team together and depth never hurts. Those guys seem a bit out of the age range we are looking for anyway.

On Favors and Ayton pairing, I don't see it as bad as the Favors/Gobert one. In our case, Favors would act as Gobert, while Ayton would act as Bender, due to his mobility. I think it can work.

I wonder what both will want in FA. We would need to trade the pick or Jackson without taking salary back.

[carey]

Would anyone be interested in IT if he came here for what Denver is paying him? He's only getting like $2M and is an FA this Summer. I'm not sure how healthy he is but he's now 2 years removed from that bad hip injury.

[Qwigglez]

Would anyone be interested in IT if he came here for what Denver is paying him? He's only getting like $2M and is an FA this Summer. I'm not sure how healthy he is but he's now 2 years removed from that bad hip injury.

If we completely strike out on other options first, then yeah I’d be willing to fork over a one year $5M deal if we got our other bases covered.

[Qwigglez]

I used to really like Favors but he’s always injured. Depends what we can sign him for. I might be going to tonight’s game though so I can evaluate better. Be warned, every Suns game I’ve been to in the last 7 years we always lose, so expect a blow out

Trying to remember the last game I went to where the Suns won and I think it was in the playoffs against the Grizzlies back in HS. 2004-05ish?

[Waylay13]

Would anyone be interested in IT if he came here for what Denver is paying him? He's only getting like $2M and is an FA this Summer. I'm not sure how healthy he is but he's now 2 years removed from that bad hip injury.

I wouldnt touch IT with a 10 ft pole. The very last thing this time needs is a point guard that doesn't pass the ball or play defense. This team is finally starting to come up together has a team and you want to bring in a cancer that has caused problems on 4 teams now (Phoenix, Cleveland, LA and Denver). Denver has just benched him.