Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVII

[verbal8]

Anyone have access to a spreadsheet with GM info who can tell us who is the GM that is the most games under .500 in NBA history? I remember an article about coaches claiming Byron Scott was the WCOAT by this standard but I don't know if this has been done for GMs.

I'd love to see where Ernie rates at wins per dollar spent.

The Wizards under Ernie have to rate right at the bottom. Nobody quite manages to build 40 win teams with a bloated payroll like the Wizards do.

It isn't as bad as I thought, but it is pretty damning. I compared NBA rank(wins) vs. Salary rank. EG's Wizards teams have averaged 19th(19.3) place in the standings despite a salary ranking of 17th(16.9).

This occurred despite having a lot of top picks and making salary moves that likely made the salary numbers look better than the expenses.

[daSwami]

Anyone have access to a spreadsheet with GM info who can tell us who is the GM that is the most games under .500 in NBA history? I remember an article about coaches claiming Byron Scott was the WCOAT by this standard but I don't know if this has been done for GMs.

I've never seen such an analysis, but I recall reading an article a few years back arguing that DC's own Elgin Baylor was the worst GM in NBA history; and the facts seem to bear that out - the Clippers had only 2 winning seasons in his 22 years as GM. (The Clips had a record of 607 and 1153 during his tenure.)

[penbeast0]

I blame Donald Sterling for most of that though Elgin did continue to work for him.

[babyjax13]

This might be a horrifically stupid idea. Has to happen before the draft, and Wall would have to waive his trade kicker. He might not do that, but I tend to think that he would if it meant going to a good situation.

Utah trades/Washington receives: Derrick Favors, Raul Neto, Georges Niang, Tony Bradley
Washington trades/Utah receives: John Wall, Troy Brown, 2019 WAS 1st (8), 2021 WAS 1st (unprotected)

Why Washington does it: If they let Parker go, they'll be opening up about $37 million in cap space this year and be able to sell potential free agents on playing next to Beal, then having max cap space the next year to sign another star. They also move Wall's horrific contract, one that was bad before he was missing a year with a potentially career-threatening injury.

Why Utah does it: The Jazz gamble on getting a star twice. They roll the dice that maaaaybe Wall comes back after next season and is still a 20/10 player, and that several rookie-scale contracts can act as a ballast to all that bloat. They also roll the dice that the 8th pick can result in someone good. Finally, they also get two shots at role players. Brown looked good in preseason and is still 19, and while the 2021 pick likely won't land in the lottery, it is another shot to attempt to exercise some drafting prowess.

[gambitx777]

Look as much as I want rid of wall. The only way we move that contact now, is if we land a top 3 pick and we attach it to wall and move him to a place.
Like to the suns
They get john, our pick and we get filler, the rights to the bucks pick next year and the suns second this year. Most people would hate that though.

[dangermouse]

There'd be two conditions for me: if we got a pick in the 4 to 7 range or so I'd be looking at that kind of move, maybe not a future pick as well.

Second condition: new GM that can actually get us interviews with free agents.

[nate33]

I'm totally in favor of trading Wall. I'm just unwilling to pay the price that would be necessary to offload him this offseason. It makes much more sense to wait until he gets healthy (and there's one less year on his contract).

[Hogified05]

What's the feeling around Washington? Are they going blow it up this off season? Think Beal becomes available? Or is he untouchable?

Because if y'all are looking to start over been messing around the Trade machine on ESPN. Beal for Fournier and Bamba works. Obviously judging we resign Vuc.

Bamba is a decent chip to start the rebuild around. Plus Fournier's contract becomes more manageable after this year with only 2 years left on it. Evan is competent but if he is your lead off guard he will help you get a high pick next year lol. Then he becomes tradeable with one year left on his deal. Think he would be really good as a 3rd or fourth option on a contender now.

We just won't win without upgrading our 2 spot. Beal is the piece we need in my estimation. I'd be willing to throw in our first in 2020 as well.

Of course all this is moot if y'all arent in blowup mode.

[Ruzious]

What's the feeling around Washington? Are they going blow it up this off season? Think Beal becomes available? Or is he untouchable?

Because if y'all are looking to start over been messing around the Trade machine on ESPN. Beal for Fournier and Bamba works. Obviously judging we resign Vuc.

Bamba is a decent chip to start the rebuild around. Plus Fournier's contract becomes more manageable after this year with only 2 years left on it. Evan is competent but if he is your lead off guard he will help you get a high pick next year lol. Then he becomes tradeable with one year left on his deal. Think he would be really good as a 3rd or fourth option on a contender now.

We just won't win without upgrading our 2 spot. Beal is the piece we need in my estimation. I'd be willing to throw in our first in 2020 as well.

Of course all this is moot if y'all arent in blowup mode.

There's very little chance they trade Beal. It sounds like he's committed to the Wizards, and the Wizards are committed to him. Of course, there's always a chance that changes, but it would take a huge offer, and Fournier and Bamba does not cut it. Look at Beal's stats since the all-star game (which he was in), and compare them to Fournier's - he's slipped badly this season, and while Bomba's a nice piece, gotta wonder about him getting a stress fracture while averaging just 16 minutes a game.

[payitforward]

...Beal for Fournier and Bamba ...I'd be willing to throw in our first in 2020 as well....

Why ever would we do this, I wonder?

Fournier has negative trade value. Including him doesn't get you part way to what you have to offer for Beal; it means you have to offer more than you would otherwise.

[Illmatic12]

What's the feeling around Washington? Are they going blow it up this off season? Think Beal becomes available? Or is he untouchable?

Because if y'all are looking to start over been messing around the Trade machine on ESPN. Beal for Fournier and Bamba works. Obviously judging we resign Vuc.

Bamba is a decent chip to start the rebuild around. Plus Fournier's contract becomes more manageable after this year with only 2 years left on it. Evan is competent but if he is your lead off guard he will help you get a high pick next year lol. Then he becomes tradeable with one year left on his deal. Think he would be really good as a 3rd or fourth option on a contender now.

We just won't win without upgrading our 2 spot. Beal is the piece we need in my estimation. I'd be willing to throw in our first in 2020 as well.

Of course all this is moot if y'all arent in blowup mode.

Hmm.. you don't seem particularly familiar with how NBA trades work . Beal is a 25yo All-NBA guard with multiple years left on his deal. He's reaffirmed his commitment to the Wizards and is not on the trade block by any means.

Bamba + Fournier is a decent offer for say, Josh Richardson . Not in the ballpark of what it would take to get Washington to even listen to a Bradley Beal offer.

[nate33]

What's the feeling around Washington? Are they going blow it up this off season? Think Beal becomes available? Or is he untouchable?

Because if y'all are looking to start over been messing around the Trade machine on ESPN. Beal for Fournier and Bamba works. Obviously judging we resign Vuc.

Bamba is a decent chip to start the rebuild around. Plus Fournier's contract becomes more manageable after this year with only 2 years left on it. Evan is competent but if he is your lead off guard he will help you get a high pick next year lol. Then he becomes tradeable with one year left on his deal. Think he would be really good as a 3rd or fourth option on a contender now.

We just won't win without upgrading our 2 spot. Beal is the piece we need in my estimation. I'd be willing to throw in our first in 2020 as well.

Of course all this is moot if y'all arent in blowup mode.

There's very little chance they trade Beal. It sounds like he's committed to the Wizards, and the Wizards are committed to him. Of course, there's always a chance that changes, but it would take a huge offer, and Fournier and Bamba does not cut it. Look at Beal's stats since the all-star game (which he was in), and compare them to Fournier's - he's slipped badly this season, and while Bomba's a nice piece, gotta wonder about him getting a stress fracture while averaging just 16 minutes a game.

And it's not just since the All Star game. Beal has been elite ever since Wall's season ended on December 26. Since then, Beal has averaged 28, 7 and 6 with a TS% of .590. Those are basically identical to James Harden's numbers when Harden was the same age (25). Harden's TS% was just a bit higher at .605, but everything else was the same.

The Wizards aren't trading Beal unless it's for someone like Anthony Davis or Ben Simmons. He's that good.

[Ruzious]

What's the feeling around Washington? Are they going blow it up this off season? Think Beal becomes available? Or is he untouchable?

Because if y'all are looking to start over been messing around the Trade machine on ESPN. Beal for Fournier and Bamba works. Obviously judging we resign Vuc.

Bamba is a decent chip to start the rebuild around. Plus Fournier's contract becomes more manageable after this year with only 2 years left on it. Evan is competent but if he is your lead off guard he will help you get a high pick next year lol. Then he becomes tradeable with one year left on his deal. Think he would be really good as a 3rd or fourth option on a contender now.

We just won't win without upgrading our 2 spot. Beal is the piece we need in my estimation. I'd be willing to throw in our first in 2020 as well.

Of course all this is moot if y'all arent in blowup mode.

There's very little chance they trade Beal. It sounds like he's committed to the Wizards, and the Wizards are committed to him. Of course, there's always a chance that changes, but it would take a huge offer, and Fournier and Bamba does not cut it. Look at Beal's stats since the all-star game (which he was in), and compare them to Fournier's - he's slipped badly this season, and while Bomba's a nice piece, gotta wonder about him getting a stress fracture while averaging just 16 minutes a game.

And it's not just since the All Star game. Beal has been elite ever since Wall's season ended on December 26. Since then, Beal has averaged 28, 7 and 6 with a TS% of .590. Those are basically identical to James Harden's numbers when Harden was the same age (25). Harden's TS% was just a bit higher at .605, but everything else was the same.

The Wizards aren't trading Beal unless it's for someone like Anthony Davis or Ben Simmons. He's that good.

Now that you mention Simmons, I wonder what he thought when 76ers owner Josh Harris said : "Joel Embiid is ‘our most important player. He’s clearly our future". Maybe there's a trade that would make some sense there. I'm guessing Philly doesn't want to pay for Redick - who will turn 35 this year, so Beal could be a great fit for them. And they could use the MLE for a PG. Problem in making a Beal for Simmons trade is Simmons is on his rookie deal, so Philly would have to trade some filler, and they don't have much. Maybe they could re-sign Boban at over market for 1 year and include him in the trade to make it work. Or... throw in a Kardashian.

[nate33]

There's very little chance they trade Beal. It sounds like he's committed to the Wizards, and the Wizards are committed to him. Of course, there's always a chance that changes, but it would take a huge offer, and Fournier and Bamba does not cut it. Look at Beal's stats since the all-star game (which he was in), and compare them to Fournier's - he's slipped badly this season, and while Bomba's a nice piece, gotta wonder about him getting a stress fracture while averaging just 16 minutes a game.

And it's not just since the All Star game. Beal has been elite ever since Wall's season ended on December 26. Since then, Beal has averaged 28, 7 and 6 with a TS% of .590. Those are basically identical to James Harden's numbers when Harden was the same age (25). Harden's TS% was just a bit higher at .605, but everything else was the same.

The Wizards aren't trading Beal unless it's for someone like Anthony Davis or Ben Simmons. He's that good.

Now that you mention Simmons, I wonder what he thought when 76ers owner Josh Harris said : "Joel Embiid is ‘our most important player. He’s clearly our future". Maybe there's a trade that would make some sense there. I'm guessing Philly doesn't want to pay for Redick - who will turn 35 this year, so Beal could be a great fit for them. And they could use the MLE for a PG. Problem in making a Beal for Simmons trade is Simmons is on his rookie deal, so Philly would have to trade some filler, and they don't have much. Maybe they could re-sign Boban at over market for 1 year and include him in the trade to make it work. Or... throw in a Kardashian.

They could absorb the salary differential into their cap space.

It's really too bad they made that Jimmy Butler trade. Imagine if they still had Covington and Saric. They could make the Beal for Simmons deal and have the following lineup:

PG ???
SG Beal
SF Covington
PF Harris
C Embiid

Man, those are 4 VERY complementary players. Embiid can be the focal point as he should be, but Beal and Harris can create shots off the bounce and really exploit the defensive attention given to Embiid, and also space the floor. Covington guards the opposition's best player and doesn't demand many shots on offense. That still leaves about $10M for a PG. All you really need there is a 3&D guy like Patrick Beverley. And with so much defensive attention given to Beal, Harris and Embiid, you can fill out the roster with cheap, defensive-minded vets like Garrett Temple and Mbah a Moute.

[payitforward]

Bradley Beal is playing great. He's playing his best basketball ever. He's fully justifying that he's an all-star. &, at 25, there's room for further development. He would & should bring a lot in a trade.

But, good as he is, I would not trade Ben Simmons for Beal. Or, put the other way, if I were Wizards GM I would jump at that deal instantly. Simmons is one of the top handful of players in the league. Leaving out Centers (the best C's always put up the biggest overall raw numbers), he is behind Giannis & LeBron & no one else. & he is only 22.

I do not mean to throw shade on Bradley Beal -- I wouldn't trade Simmons for James Harden. Or Kawhi Leonard. Or Jimmy Butler.

[Ruzious]

Bradley Beal is playing great. He's playing his best basketball ever. He's fully justifying that he's an all-star. &, at 25, there's room for further development. He would & should bring a lot in a trade.

But, good as he is, I would not trade Ben Simmons for Beal. Or, put the other way, if I were Wizards GM I would jump at that deal instantly. Simmons is one of the top handful of players in the league. Leaving out Centers (the best C's always put up the biggest overall raw numbers), he is behind Giannis & LeBron & no one else. & he is only 22.

I do not mean to throw shade on Bradley Beal -- I wouldn't trade Simmons for James Harden. Or Kawhi Leonard. Or Jimmy Butler.

It depends on whether Philly thinks they need better spacing to win a championship - assuming Redick leaves.

[nate33]

Bradley Beal is playing great. He's playing his best basketball ever. He's fully justifying that he's an all-star. &, at 25, there's room for further development. He would & should bring a lot in a trade.

But, good as he is, I would not trade Ben Simmons for Beal. Or, put the other way, if I were Wizards GM I would jump at that deal instantly. Simmons is one of the top handful of players in the league. Leaving out Centers (the best C's always put up the biggest overall raw numbers), he is behind Giannis & LeBron & no one else. & he is only 22.

I do not mean to throw shade on Bradley Beal -- I wouldn't trade Simmons for James Harden. Or Kawhi Leonard. Or Jimmy Butler.

It depends on whether Philly thinks they need better spacing to win a championship - assuming Redick leaves.

Yes. I think it could very well be a win-win trade.

I think PIF has a point that, Simmons may be more intrinsically talented than Beal and is capable of ultimately doing more things that contribute to winning. The problem with Simmons is that he is unwilling or unable to space the floor, which limits the type of teammates he is likely to excel alongside. As it stands now, Embiid happens to be the type of teammate that doesn't mesh ideally with Simmons' skill set.

Beal strikes me as a guy who is damn near as good as Simmons, but also way more complementary to the other pieces they already have on the roster. Trading Simmons for Beal might ultimately lead to more wins for Philly, even if Simmons is slightly better than Beal in the abstract.

[Ruzious]

Bradley Beal is playing great. He's playing his best basketball ever. He's fully justifying that he's an all-star. &, at 25, there's room for further development. He would & should bring a lot in a trade.

But, good as he is, I would not trade Ben Simmons for Beal. Or, put the other way, if I were Wizards GM I would jump at that deal instantly. Simmons is one of the top handful of players in the league. Leaving out Centers (the best C's always put up the biggest overall raw numbers), he is behind Giannis & LeBron & no one else. & he is only 22.

I do not mean to throw shade on Bradley Beal -- I wouldn't trade Simmons for James Harden. Or Kawhi Leonard. Or Jimmy Butler.

It depends on whether Philly thinks they need better spacing to win a championship - assuming Redick leaves.

Yes. I think it could very well be a win-win trade.

I think PIF has a point that, Simmons may be more intrinsically talented than Beal and is capable of ultimately doing more things that contribute to winning. The problem with Simmons is that he is unwilling or unable to space the floor, which limits the type of teammates he is likely to excel alongside. As it stands now, Embiid happens to be the type of teammate that doesn't mesh ideally with Simmons' skill set.

Beal strikes me as a guy who is damn near as good as Simmons, but also way more complementary to the other pieces they already have on the roster. Trading Simmons for Beal might ultimately lead to more wins for Philly, even if Simmons is slightly better than Beal in the abstract.

Right, Philly doesn't need to "win the trade" to become a better team.

[payitforward]

It depends on whether Philly thinks they need better spacing to win a championship - assuming Redick leaves.

Yes. I think it could very well be a win-win trade.

I think PIF has a point that, Simmons may be more intrinsically talented than Beal and is capable of ultimately doing more things that contribute to winning. The problem with Simmons is that he is unwilling or unable to space the floor, which limits the type of teammates he is likely to excel alongside. As it stands now, Embiid happens to be the type of teammate that doesn't mesh ideally with Simmons' skill set.

Beal strikes me as a guy who is damn near as good as Simmons, but also way more complementary to the other pieces they already have on the roster. Trading Simmons for Beal might ultimately lead to more wins for Philly, even if Simmons is slightly better than Beal in the abstract.

Right, Philly doesn't need to "win the trade" to become a better team.

...& presumably we would also win more games? Sorry, no. Basketball is a zero sum game: a trade cannot make both teams better. Period.

Moreover, Simmons is not "slightly better than Beal in the abstract," he's much better than Brad concretely, while both guys are on the floor playing the game. And again, that is not a ding on Brad Beal!

Yes, this year Brad has scored 7.66 more points than Simmons per 40 minutes. But, his TS% is actually a little lower than Ben's. & when you look at the rest of the stuff, it just absolutely blows you away! Start with:

6.5 more possessions to other teammates from taking fewer shots
3.7 more possessions to teammates from getting more defensive boards

That is 10.2 extra possessions per 40 minutes for the rest of the team from having Ben Simmons instead of Brad Beal, the net effect of which is a lot more than 7.66 extra points.

Again... this isn't about Brad Beal! It's about a guy who is on his own level.

I'm sure Zards remembers predicting that, unless he developed a jump shot, Simmons would decline this season, because the league would have scouted him. Well, his jump shot is unchanged -- but he is better than last season not worse.

Ben Simmons is 22.

[payitforward]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the 53% more assists & more than twice as many offensive rebounds....