WWE General Discussion II

[JohnPferdelack]

oh ok, the change will only take place in autumn...

[improper]

Eminem will be doing the WWE 2K20 sound track and will be making an appearance on SmackDown when it goes to Fox. That's huge.

Call me when they make the game not suck.

[jakecronus8]

So I'm rewatching the women's rumble from this year and I just kept thinking about how great of a state that women's wrestling is in now and for the future. With the right booking you have a bunch of super studs in Becky, Charlotte, Ronda, Sasha and Asuka. Great mid card acts and tag teams, the nxt women, the U.K. women. It's getting to the point now where I'd like to see them scrap 205 Live in favor of an all women's show. There's too much talent there to sit on the sidelines. I'd be way more inclined to watch an all women's show than 205Live. No disrespect. There's just way more character and plenty of women that can straight up go in the ring. Keep in mind, id still have bigger main roster stories too to go along with the separate show.

[improper]

With the right booking...

[Wo1verine]

Eminem will be doing the WWE 2K20 sound track and will be making an appearance on SmackDown when it goes to Fox. That's huge.

Call me when they make the game not suck.

Eminem is going to be a DLC wrestler lol

[Scott Hall]

I just can't put Cena as the best ever because, even though he's got the resume and was the face of the company for a decade, he was the face of the company as ratings fell consistently over that same decade and interest in wrestling seriously waned.

For me personally, I'd go with Austin. Not only was he involved in the greatest feud in wrestling history, but he carried the company when it blew up and, if we're being honest, the Attitude Era doesn't happen without Stone Cold. He was the face of the company during its biggest boom period and he was a cultural phenomenon in a way few people have been since. He helped make wrestling cool, something Cena had the opposite effect on. Austin also retired before he became a joke, unlike Taker.

I think there's 2 ways of looking at it...

One is the wrestling purist stand point that goes off the criteria of work rate, mic skills and look. You might also factor
in legendary matches, classic feuds etc.

I think the top 5 guys are Flair, Bret, Angle, HBK, Jericho

For me it's between Angle and HBK for best all around wrestler of all-time. HBK might win on longevity but
prime Angle might be the best I've ever seen as best all around wrestler.

Then there is the biggest star of the business criteria. Box office attraction, star power, historical merit, crossover
appeal plus you can throw in the wrestling purist criteria as well.

My problem with Austin is his longevity (from the Owen Hart Tombstone Piledriver), lack of classic iconic matches,
and the fact that the Rock was 1A with him and was right there with him.

To me Hulk Hogan still has Austin, Bruno, Cena, Taker, Flair etc soundly beat. Hogan essentially made wrestling
main stream, made the WWE Global made Wrestlemania an iconic brand and the only one who is more important
then him from a historical stand point is Vince. Savage and Warrior were hot at one point but there was always
a gap between them and Hogan.

Hogan vs. Andre at WM 3 is still regarded as the biggest and most historical match of all-time and their feud is on par
or possibly even more bigger than Austin vs. Rock. Speaking of Austin vs. Rock that match at WM 17 and Austins
match vs. Bret Hart at WM 13 are only his real big significant matches that are regarded high.

Sure Austin got hot and help sky rocket the WWF but a lot of new eyeballs or old eyeballs coming back to the industry
was because of Hogan and the nWo becoming super hot.

An old Hogan showed up on Austins turf in 2002 and had a legendary match with the Rock the next night on RAW
Austin no showed then Hogan became champ at the next PPV. Austin refused to job to Brock and Eddie took his ball
and went home and then came back for the one final match against the Rock and you can argue that Hogan vs. Vince
might have been the better match it was the cover of the DVD for WM 19.

Also Hogans heel turn is the biggest of all-time and was a huge success Austins was a big flop and had to turn
back face several months later.

[improper]

I can see Hogan. I just can't put him as the greatest ever for two reasons.

One, I missed most of his prime. I started watching wrestling in the nineties, so nWo Hogan is the version most entrenched in my memory.

Two, the outside of the ring stuff.

But as I said, I can certainly see a credible argument for him.

[Stanford]

Austin doesn't exactly have a spotless story outside of the ring either.

[improper]

Austin doesn't exactly have a spotless story outside of the ring either.

That's true, but as far as I know he's been clean since his career ended.

[Stanford]

Austin doesn't exactly have a spotless story outside of the ring either.

That's true, but as far as I know he's been clean since his career ended.

True. It seems to have been a single incident.

[improper]

True. It seems to have been a single incident.

I guess I'm also a bit more forgiving because, with Austin, his incident seemed to be a result of steroid abuse. A lot of wrestlers have had similar issues because they abused steroids. Doesn't make what they did right, but it at least frames it in a different context.

WWF failed many of them by being so lax with their drug enforcement, and allowing guys to work through head injuries.

Hogan, on the other hand, is just racist, even if he is also very likable.

[Scott Hall]

I don't think any of that outside of the ring stuff should be a factor or even the politics backstage where you could
severely penalize HBK and extremely prop up Taker. Hogans racist rant when he was suicidal or Austin beating up Debra
is unfortunate but both seem to be one time incidents.

I get people are partial to the guys that they grew up watching or certain eras. I think Austin is the only guy to ever
seriously challenge Hogan as the GOAT but the longevity just isn't there as well as some misses in some big categories.
The same goes for the Rock if he didn't leave for Hollywood just as he was entering his prime or apex we could be talking
about him as the GOAT but the longevity isn't there either.

I don't think Cena, Bruno, Flair, Taker etc should be in the conversation.

[spykelee]

Flair, really? What's the case against excluding him? Other than his lack of time spent in WWE specifically anyways.

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[Mich3006]

All-time Top 5 in case of impact/popularity on the WWE:
1. Stone Cold
2. Hulk Hogan
3. Undertaker
4. The Rock
5. John Cena

Goat talentwise is Shawn Michaels IMO.

[Scott Hall]

Flair, really? What's the case against excluding him? Other than his lack of time spent in WWE specifically anyways.

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In the 80's Hogan took WWE main stream both became cultural phenomenons. The NWA/WCW was a distant
2nd promotion primarily watched in the South. I think this seriously hurts Sting as well from being in the GOAT
discussion. Flair and Sting were both the franchise players of the 2nd best promotion. Flairs best matches
just don't hold up to the spectacle of Hogans or compare to guys like HBK, Bret etc.

When Hogan and other WWE guys started coming over to WCW Flair turned into a mid carder. When the nWo
was formed and became the hottest thing in the industry the Horsemen became a midcard stable.

Flair also has by far the least amount of twitter followers of all the mount rushmore guys and never really did
any movies so his star power outside of wrestling is questionable. From a "best all around wrestler" perspective
I think HBK, Angle, Bret, Sting and Jericho possibly have surpassed him.

I think the only ones that can even remotely touch Hogan are Austin and Rock but man making a case for them
with their extremely small sample size is tough.

[spykelee]

So you always see flair as a second banana type guy, I see. As dumb as it may be, I see flair's 16 title runs as an achievement that merits goat discussion on its own really. Couple that with his longevity and the respect he has from other goats and the cross over appeal he managed (granted, mostly within wrestling and sports), even his offspring being the goat female. He's certainly in consideration for me. I can see the point about always sorta being second best, and that wasn't even in wwe which this discussion focuses on, but still, a mt Rushmore, for me, he's in the discussion. Id have him over Jericho. Jericho would be in the tier right after the big dogs.

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[spykelee]

And right on cue from the most electrifying man in sports entertainment;

This past weekend @WWE celebrated the 17th anniversary of what was billed as “ICON vs ICON” to determine who would go down in @WWE history as THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME.

It was yours truly, VS The Immortal Hulk Hogan at WrestleMania.

What made this match so special was that there was no Heavyweight Championship on the line.

Just two men.

Just two careers.

And 85,000+ of the most insane ELECTRIC crowd I have ever had the privilege to perform in front of.

It was almost as if every single person that night in the Toronto SkyDome made up their mind that they would give every ounce of energy they had because they knew this match was only going to be seen once in a lifetime.

My friend and childhood hero, Hulk Hogan passed the torch to me on this historic night which decreed me becoming “THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME”, but the truth is – to me – the GOAT are the three men who paved the way for me and so many others in pro wrestling/

@hulkhogan

@ricflairnatureboy

@steveaustinbsr

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[Scott Hall]

So you always see flair as a second banana type guy, I see. As dumb as it may be, I see flair's 16 title runs as an achievement that merits goat discussion on its own really. Couple that with his longevity and the respect he has from other goats and the cross over appeal he managed (granted, mostly within wrestling and sports), even his offspring being the goat female. He's certainly in consideration for me. I can see the point about always sorta being second best, and that wasn't even in wwe which this discussion focuses on, but still, a mt Rushmore, for me, he's in the discussion. Id have him over Jericho. Jericho would be in the tier right after the big dogs.

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It's not that I see Flair as a second banana it's just if we're talking about the GOAT I don't think he's in the
discussion anymore but he's still top 5 or top 10.

The majority of his tittle runs were during the late 70's and early 80's of the Dusty and Harley era. When Sting
came around it didn't take long for him to become the franchise player.

What is Flairs best match ever? Against Steamboat at Chi-Town Rumble 1989? How many people have even watched
that or watched it live at the time?

Hogans prime was primarily played out on NBC and his match with Andre in 1988 on SNME had 30 million people watching.
Austins box office numbers destroy anything Flair did.

Flairs WWF run from 1991-1993 was mediocre at best outside of the 1992 Rumble and the match with Savage
at WM 8. He was starting to get out classed by guys like Bret, HBK, Mr. Perfect etc and went back to WCW.

His WCW 1993-2001 run didn't produce any great matches or any real significance and by 1996 he was a midcarder.

Flair dominated the Dusty/Harley years of the 2nd promotion but whenever he was on a roster with Hogan, Savage,
Bret, HBK, Taker, Sting and eventually Austin and Rock he was a guy in the mix that ends up turning into a midcarder.

As for Charlotte to me that's just a nice cherry on top.

For years Flair was known as the wrestling fans champion the best all around talent. But I think HBK and prime
Angle have surpassed him maybe even Bret.

Jericho is definitely questionable

[Stanford]

The majority of his tittle runs were during the late 70's and early 80's of the Dusty and Harley era. When Sting
came around it didn't take long for him to become the franchise player.

Which makes it strange that you criticize him for being a midcarder by 1996. Well, no kidding. His run on top lasted 15 years. Besides, he had a career renaissance after the Harley/Dusty era. His run of 5 star matches with the "next guy" from 87 to 89 is an all-time great stretch. His 89 run may be the best individual year in wrestling history. Sure, in the mid 90s he wasn't great, but he certainly wasn't terrible. It wasn't embarrassing like Hogan's work in the 90s. And then he had a second career revival in 2004 with a bunch of matches that had no right to be as good as they were, considering his age.

Hogans prime was primarily played out on NBC and his match with Andre in 1988 on SNME had 30 million people watching.
Austins box office numbers destroy anything Flair did.

Oh come on. Both Hogan and Austin had the benefit of Vince McMahon as a promoter. It's not up to Flair to figure out marketing strategies and develop revenue streams. Don't act like Hogan was negotiating with TV executives and working on strategic plans. The territories couldn't compete with Vince's vision - that's not Flair's fault. If Hogan stuck to the territories, his matches wouldn't have been watched by 30 million people on NBC either.

Flairs WWF run from 1991-1993 was mediocre at best outside of the 1992 Rumble and the match with Savage
at WM 8. He was starting to get out classed by guys like Bret, HBK, Mr. Perfect etc and went back to WCW.

He was in his 40s by the time he joined WWF and still left two classic matches. How is this a criticism?

If your only criteria for greatest wrestler is 'how much did this guy draw compared to Hogan,' maybe you have a point. But in terms of main event match resume, promo and character work, time on top and drawing power, it's hard to top Flair all time.

Giving Hogan credit for what was clearly Vince McMahon's vision and execution is hilarious.

[studcrackers]

I don't think any of that outside of the ring stuff should be a factor or even the politics backstage where you could
severely penalize HBK and extremely prop up Taker. Hogans racist rant when he was suicidal or Austin beating up Debra
is unfortunate but both seem to be one time incidents.

I get people are partial to the guys that they grew up watching or certain eras. I think Austin is the only guy to ever
seriously challenge Hogan as the GOAT but the longevity just isn't there as well as some misses in some big categories.
The same goes for the Rock if he didn't leave for Hollywood just as he was entering his prime or apex we could be talking
about him as the GOAT but the longevity isn't there either.

I don't think Cena, Bruno, Flair, Taker etc should be in the conversation.

the way hogan dropped those n bombs so casually i highly doubt that was a one time thing. just one time he was caught