Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0

[frumble]

Anyone seeing Lawson or Alexander on any mocks?
Anyone else with a realistic shot of being drafted over the next couple of seasons? (McEwen in 2020?)

Kabengele

Yeah, Kabengele is on the mock draft list I quoted.

I was wondering if anyone other than the 9 on that list (Barrett, NAW, Clarke, Brazdeikis, Shittu, Wigginton, Dort, Kabengele, and Brissett) has a realistic shot, other than Lawson and Alexander.

[bozothepope]

Anyone seeing Lawson or Alexander on any mocks?
Anyone else with a realistic shot of being drafted over the next couple of seasons? (McEwen in 2020?)

Kabengele

Yeah, Kabengele is on the mock draft list I quoted.

I was wondering if anyone other than the 9 on that list (Barrett, NAW, Clarke, Brazdeikis, Shittu, Wigginton, Dort, Kabengele, and Brissett) has a realistic shot, other than Lawson and Alexander.

Andrew Nembhard? I can see Marial Shayok getting an NBA look too.

[aminiaturebuddha]

Extreme long shots, especially given the conferences that they play in, but two guys having decent freshman seasons who could develop into 4-year starters that get a 2nd round look down the road, are Stef Smith at Vermont (going to the NCAA tournament), and Noah Kirkwood at Harvard.

They both have size limitations, and in Kirkwood's case, players rarely get drafted from the Ivy League, but still, both have been pleasant surprises and important starters for good teams. It'll be fun to see how they develop over the next 3 years.

[Hair Canada]

In terms of being a good teammate most of them have raved about him just being one of the guys. Basically the reason many players didn't play on the 2017 U19 team had to do with most of them being in Summer School at the time ( a very common circumstance for many D1 guys ) not that they didn't want to play with Barrett. I'd say his winning pedigree that goes with everything he seems to touch ( U19-Monteverde-Duke) is something to be embraced, not shunned.

So yes - I'd say get off that ledge.

Just to add to that, because it's a story that has been running around for a while, so it's important to try and understand whether there's some truth to it or whether this is "fake news".

Mojo, you said: "There were already loads of rumors from the youth teams that other top prospects did not want to play with Barrett due to his selfish habits (I believe those rumors now)".

So let's take a look at that. To clarify, I'm not an insider, so this is all from following things online and putting the pieces together:

The top guys who did come were Wigginton and Kigab (what a great tournament he gave!), who both seemed like they had no problem with RJ. Neither did Djuricic, Shepherd, Darling, or any of the other guys on that team.

As for SGA, NAW, Akot, and Brissett, I think TrueNorth is right about summer school commitments, and some have said that. All were about to start their college career. None of them (except for Akot) had played with RJ before, so I don't think they could have had any beef with him. There was no indication of that in anything they said.

Nembhard didn't join the team because he was injured. Same I believe for Llewellyn.

So that leaves us with three top prospects: Simi, Iggy, and Lu Dort who were conspicuously missing from that championship without any explanation. Dort never played with RJ before. Iggy and Simi did in two previous championships. But I think for all three there's a much more straightforward explanation -- the feud that was going on that summer between the two primary Canadian AAU programs -- Uplay and CIA Bounce. It wasn't so much out in the open, but the hostility was quite eminent.

Now, let's look at the actors in that feud to try and understand what went on and how it might have affected the national teams (not just the U19; also the U16).

On the one hand, Uplay, the new kid in the block, had RJ playing for it (also AJ Lawson) and Rowan Barrett was involved in the program as well (which I think was a mistake for someone in his position). On the other hand, the much more seasoned CIA Bounce had Simi and Iggy playing for them. But not Dort. So how does he come into the picture? I believe that the key figure to understand the connection here is Tony McIntire. Quite a central figure in Canadian youth basketball and the dad of the Ennis brothers. He was the head coach of CIA Bounce and the founder of that program. But he's also the director of basketball operations at Athlete Institute, with its two flagship teams -- Orangeville Prep and Athlete Institute. And here's the connection: Iggy played at Orangeville Prep at the time and Dort was just about to join Athlete Institute. Curiously, Dort spoke enthusiastically about joining the U19 team just a month prior to the championship, and then, without any explanation just didn't come. And by the way, Brissett also just graduated from AI.

So what makes me think this is actually the reason and not some personal disliking of RJ?

What happened with the U16 team that year. In very similar fashion, top-5 guys like Addison Patterson, Matthew Alexander Moncrieff, and Josh Hemmings were all expected to be part of the team but without any explanation were not included in it in the last minute. Patterson even spoke enthusiastically about joining the team just a weak before the championship, but then it was never reported why he didn't come. Once again, what do all three have in common? All played at the time for either CIA Bounce, AI Prep, or both...

To reiterate, I'm not an insider, so this is just me putting the pieces together with some common sense. But I think this is a much more reasonable explanation than guys having such a serious problem with RJ that they wouldn't come to represent Canada. The only one that might have had some personal issues with RJ is Simi, who left Montverde a year after RJ came and there was a bit of a rumble about an altercation between the two during the U17 championship in 2016. But both publically denied that they have any serious bad blood between them and I tend to believe that.


So that's that, and I hope we can put this story to bed. I certainly see no evidence that the guys in Duke have a personal issue with RJ (He and Zion are truly best buddies).

[casoldi]

I think Jaelin Llewellyn at Princeton has a lot of room to grow. He could be a draft pick in the next few years.

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[Mirotic12]

What a shock that USA once again just somehow managed to get the best group and schedule.........amazing how that happens in every single tournament, despite these things supposedly being equal and purely random.............so ridiculous.

Anyway, I've come to realize that Kevin Pangos is enormously overrated here. He's a good player, and could play in NBA, but seriously, he's nowhere near as good as people here seem to think he is.

[Mattd97]

What a shock that USA once again just somehow managed to get the best group and schedule.........amazing how that happens in every single tournament, despite these things supposedly being equal and purely random.............so ridiculous.

Anyway, I've come to realize that Kevin Pangos is enormously overrated here. He's a good player, and could play in NBA, but seriously, he's nowhere near as good as people here seem to think he is.

Of course the US should have the easiest group, they're the number one team. That's how these things work

[Mirotic12]

Of course the US should have the easiest group, they're the number one team. That's how these things work

They were ranked number 2 and still always got the best group. Also, the rankings are not supposed to influence the scheduling or the placements in the brackets - yet somehow USA always win the best scenario in those also.

And this simply isn't applied to other teams. For example, Greece got the group of death recently in 3 straight tournaments...which shouldn't be possible if it's based on rankings.

On top of that, whole concept makes no sense at all. Why in the world would FIBA do everything it can to help the top ranked team? It makes no sense, and wasn't applied to Argentina either when they were ranked one (USA still got better draws). But even the idea that USA needs special help and treatment is completely illogical and against basic sporting principles.

Especially when other teams because of this end up getting put into these death groups unfairly, because of the unbalance the USA favoritism causes. USA is the top team and it's basically absurd that they stack the tournament in their favor every time on top of that.

[mojo13]

Of course the US should have the easiest group, they're the number one team. That's how these things work

They were ranked number 2 and still always got the best group. Also, the rankings are not supposed to influence the scheduling or the placements in the brackets - yet somehow USA always win the best scenario in those also.

And this simply isn't applied to other teams. For example, Greece got the group of death recently in 3 straight tournaments...which shouldn't be possible if it's based on rankings.

On top of that, whole concept makes no sense at all. Why in the world would FIBA do everything it can to help the top ranked team? It makes no sense, and wasn't applied to Argentina either when they were ranked one (USA still got better draws). But even the idea that USA needs special help and treatment is completely illogical and against basic sporting principles.

Especially when other teams because of this end up getting put into these death groups unfairly, because of the unbalance the USA favoritism causes. USA is the top team and it's basically absurd that they stack the tournament in their favor every time on top of that.

What are you talking about? The USA has far from a weak draw and it seems to me they have an artificially difficult draw.

The USA's pool is far, far from the weakest. It is actually seems like one of of the stronger pools - you who is such an advocate for the superiority of European teams has to admit any pool with two European teams and the USA is not among the weakest. Look at Spain or China's pool if you want to see weakness. Assuming the USA win the combined pools they will have the hardest 1/4 match-up going against one of Canada, Australia, France, or Lithuania. Then they get Spain of Serbia in the semis.

Honestly....what's up? Coming in here complaining on a Team Canada thread about pool balance? You don't even mention China having the entire draw tilted towards their favor?

Are you upset that Greece combines into the the USA/Turkey/Czech pool? You afraid of the Turks, because the Greek pool with NZ, BRA, MTG seems among the weaker. If Greece can't get out of that combined group, I don't know what to tell you.





And you are the one hyping up Pangos. Not many around here saying he should be in the NBA, yet you just did.
Consensus around here is he'd be a nice complementary piece to a World Cup team as a back-up guard assuming some of our NBA players don't play. I don't know if he is in anyone top 5 guards for Canada (I'd put him somewhere in the Ennis, Stuaskas, Scrubb tier) .

[Mirotic12]

What are you talking about? The USA has far from a weak draw and it seems to me they have an artificially difficult draw.

The USA's pool is far, far from the weakest. It is actually seems like one of of the stronger pools - you who is such an advocate for the superiority of European teams has to admit any pool with two European teams and the USA is not among the weakest. Look at Spain or China's pool if you want to see weakness. Assuming the USA win the combined pools they will have the hardest 1/4 match-up going against one of Canada, Australia, France, or Lithuania. Then they get Spain of Serbia in the semis.

Honestly....what's up? Coming in here complaining on a Team Canada thread about pool balance? You don't even mention China having the entire draw tilted towards their favor?

Are you upset that Greece combines into the the USA/Turkey/Czech pool? You afraid of the Turks, because the Greek pool with NZ, BRA, MTG seems among the weaker. If Greece can't get out of that combined group, I don't know what to tell you.

The worst era for Turkey's national team level in probably the last 25-30 years....a below average European team in Czech Republic that is quite good in 6-7 players deep but has nothing beyond that (most European teams have 10-12 guys that can consistenyl contribute something), and Japan, which is not even one of the best Asian teams..........that's an incredibly easy group.

You are talking about Greece's group - it's easily much stronger than that group.

New Zealand is way better than Japan and arguably around the level of Czech Republic.

Montenegro is better than Japan and Czech Republic.

Montenegro is arguably at the same level as Turkey.

Brazil is much better than Japan, and should be better than Czech Republic and about the same as Turkey.

China got a gifted group - they always help the host team, especially host teams that are very weak, like China. That's completely different than this constant easy ride they give USA, which needs it less than any other team does.

[Mattd97]

Im still just confused how you dont think the point of the draws are to give better teams worse opponents. That's their reward for being good. Playoffs go 1-8, 2-7, 3-6, 4-5. Not 1-2, 7-8 so that it's not helping good teams. How does that make no sense

[frumble]

The worst era for Turkey's national team level in probably the last 25-30 years....a below average European team in Czech Republic that is quite good in 6-7 players deep but has nothing beyond that (most European teams have 10-12 guys that can consistenyl contribute something), and Japan, which is not even one of the best Asian teams..........that's an incredibly easy group.

You are talking about Greece's group - it's easily much stronger than that group.

New Zealand is way better than Japan and arguably around the level of Czech Republic.

Montenegro is better than Japan and Czech Republic.

Montenegro is arguably at the same level as Turkey.

Brazil is much better than Japan, and should be better than Czech Republic and about the same as Turkey.

China got a gifted group - they always help the host team, especially host teams that are very weak, like China. That's completely different than this constant easy ride they give USA, which needs it less than any other team does.

Even using your own evaluations, we have:

Montenegro is "arguably at the same level" as Turkey.
NZ is "arguably around the level" of the Czech Republic.
Brazil is much better than Japan.

But you are leaving out the comparison of the top teams.
The US is much better than Greece.

So, all in all, it seems the Greece group is much better in terms of bottom team, much worse in terms of top team, and arguably at or around the same level in terms of 2nd and 3rd teams.

[frumble]

Anyway, I've come to realize that Kevin Pangos is enormously overrated here. He's a good player, and could play in NBA, but seriously, he's nowhere near as good as people here seem to think he is.

As Mojo said, none of us think he is a saviour, or as good as you seem to suggest we think he is. But "could play in the NBA" is not something that could be said for some of the guards who will likely be on our roster. We are probably looking at 2 to 4 non-NBA guards making our roster, so someone who could play in the NBA is likely to get significant minutes, and is a step-up on many of our options.

[frumble]

I think Jaelin Llewellyn at Princeton has a lot of room to grow. He could be a draft pick in the next few years.

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I am pulling for Llewellyn, but he seems to have had a pretty poor freshman season. IMHO he will need to improve considerably to get (back?) into draft consideration.

[aminiaturebuddha]

I think Jaelin Llewellyn at Princeton has a lot of room to grow. He could be a draft pick in the next few years.

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I am pulling for Llewellyn, but he seems to have had a pretty poor freshman season. IMHO he will need to improve considerably to get (back?) into draft consideration.

Yeah, unfortunately it's hard to think of a player that shot .332 from the field in significant minutes who went on to have a good career. Hopefully he can be the exception, but not holding my breath.

[aminiaturebuddha]

Someone pointed out a couple of weeks ago how Dwight Powell has been given a good opportunity with injuries and trade deadline roster changes in Dallas.

Well, in 10 games as a starter he's averaging 16.1 pts, 7.1 rbds, and 2.3 asts. He's definitely peaking at the right time as far as Team Canada is concerned, and showing what he's capable of. An Olynyk-Powell frontline for the World Cup could be very exciting for Canada if they're both available.

An interesting side note: Powell has now increased his PPG each of his first 6 years in the NBA.

[DaFroMan]

Someone pointed out a couple of weeks ago how Dwight Powell has been given a good opportunity with injuries and trade deadline roster changes in Dallas.

Well, in 10 games as a starter he's averaging 16.1 pts, 7.1 rbds, and 2.3 asts. He's definitely peaking at the right time as far as Team Canada is concerned, and showing what he's capable of. An Olynyk-Powell frontline for the World Cup could be very exciting for Canada if they're both available.

An interesting side note: Powell has now increased his PPG each of his first 6 years in the NBA.

This is a great sign. Dallas has really brought him along slowly. Some times It's felt like they've held him back a bit. I just did a quick glance at the dallas roster and there's really not much reason he shouldn't be getting at least 30+ mpg from here on out. He does everything well and is a pretty mobile big; why havn't they given him extended minutes sooner? Like last year sooner lol.

[mojo13]

Someone pointed out a couple of weeks ago how Dwight Powell has been given a good opportunity with injuries and trade deadline roster changes in Dallas.

Well, in 10 games as a starter he's averaging 16.1 pts, 7.1 rbds, and 2.3 asts. He's definitely peaking at the right time as far as Team Canada is concerned, and showing what he's capable of. An Olynyk-Powell frontline for the World Cup could be very exciting for Canada if they're both available.

An interesting side note: Powell has now increased his PPG each of his first 6 years in the NBA.

This is a great sign. Dallas has really brought him along slowly. Some times It's felt like they've held him back a bit. I just did a quick glance at the dallas roster and there's really not much reason he shouldn't be getting at least 30+ mpg from here on out. He does everything well and is a pretty mobile big; why havn't they given him extended minutes sooner? Like last year sooner lol.

I love Powell as an elite rim running big, and his recent surge is great to watch. But his defense leaves much to be desired and why it has taken a while for him to get major minutes.
He gets dominated by traditional bigs in the paint and inexplicablly offers zero rim protection for someone that gets so vertical on offense.


Yet Khem Birch, to me, is the one massively under the radar and one who I also think can be key to a WC team. His defense is becoming elite as he gains confidence. Since Feb The Magic are like 15-1 or something when he plays 15 minutes and like 1-7 when he doesn’t.
Amazingly he is in the top 10 for win shares per 48 right now.

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?s=20

Any way to merge Birch and Powell?

[TrueNorth31]

I think most NBA observers see Powell as a stretch 4 playing out of position with Dallas as a 5. For me his biggest improvement has been in his 3 point shooting - since becoming a regular in February after the Jordan trade he's shot 47.5 % from deep. It's hard to get any shooting rhythm with limited playing time and confidence ( I have a son who's a player and it's certainly been the case with him). He's an extremely efficient offensive player ( in the 99/100 percentile) per synergy the past 2 seasons. I think he's much better suited defensively as a four.

He and his agent ( Toronto's Mike George ) have a real decision to make. He has a $10.3 player option for next year. I can see him striking while the iron is hot , declining the option and trying to get a long term contract. If he doesn't Olynyk, Powell and Thompson are all free agents after next season - with a probable June 2020 last chance qualifying tournament looming for Canada it would be nice to have some posts available.

Hopefully Birch keeps up the good play and lands a long term contract as well - he's on the record as saying he's going to China no matter what, as either a player or spectator.

Some interesting developments yesterday in the U Sports coaching world yesterday. Dave Smart has stepped down as Carleton head coach- but staying at Carleton as a fund raiser and coaching coordinator for both basketball programs at Carleton. It's the type of job however, that would free him up for more National Team duties. It's been a tough couple of weeks for Smart as his house in Ottawa burned down while he and his family were in Halifax.

In Canadian basketball coaching/ player circles rumors continue that Roy Rana will be the National Team head coach. It's hard to know if this is just wishful thinking, seeing one of their own succeed or a somewhat legitimate rumor.

[aminiaturebuddha]

Good points on Birch, mojo. Since Birch has started getting consistent minutes, I've only seen Orlando play 2 times, but both times Birch's defence really did come across as elite. He constantly causes havoc in the paint, and is also excellent about getting back on transition D to shut down easy transition looks.

A Dwight Birch would be an All-Star!