Political Roundtable Part XXV

[Jamaaliver]

Both parties are just out to destroy each other now (Zonk has illustrated this the best with his posts).

Yes!!

And their supporters are to short sighted/delusional too see it.

[Pointgod]

This is why the 2-party system doesn't work anymore: Partisan politics and political absolutism.

I'd never align myself with Republicans. But I want nothing to do with Democrats' delusional belief that they alone can solve all of our country's ills.

The majority of the country resides in the middle of the political spectrum, But both parties keep pandering to extremists on the far reaches.




And we're all the poorer for it.

The biggest problem with the current political climate is Republicans, full stop, period. I don’t know how you don’t see everything they’re doing to destroy Democracy and the country and think “hmmm Democrats are just as bad”. Ideally in a functioning Democracy both parties would be working together on major pieces of legislation, using trade offs, compromises and debating the merits. Republicans refused to work with Obama, you can continue to see how they became even more corrupt with Trump. The party is full of anarchists, it’s not a party that’s able to govern. If two years controlling all 3 branches of government wasn’t enough evidence then I don’t know what is. Adding more parties to the mix isn’t a better recipe for governance as you can see in places like the UK.

I’m obviously a partisan but I’m not out of any crazy tribalism, but because of reality. The parties are so polarized that all switching power back and forth does is guarantee little progress. After Clinton, instead of voting Gore and setting the framework for a better country, you voted in Bush who was an absolute disaster that started multiple wars, blew up the surplus and set the stage for a global economic collapse. Obama comes in and has to clean up Bushes mess, but he gets hamstrung for 6 years because of Republicans in Congress, just when you’ve gotten to a recovery Trump comes in and starts to undo everything Obama did. So the next Democratic President is going to have to undo the immense damage Trump has caused, while trying to push a more progressive agenda. You see pattern here? It’s always a back and forth until there’s a definitive direction. I’m just saying voters need to choose that direction. Imagine 20 years of Democratic majority or 20 years of Republican majority and vote the outcome that you think leaves the country better off in the long run.

First, I think this is a bit of revisionist history. Gore ran a terrible campaign. He was stiff. And Bush wasn't terrible until 9/11 - he basically followed what Clinton did. It the overreaction to 9/11 that was his undoing. And remember, Obama had a supermajority until he pissed it away with a poor stimulus and a focus on healthcare instead of the economy as we came out of the great recession. Also note, that although he was hamstrung by the Rs, the economy and government receipts and outlays were best during that period.

You are right that this administration sucks and needs to go... but then you have the GND proposal that would be even worse for the country than Trump. The Ds aren't moving toward a supermajority either. Both parties are just out to destroy each other now (Zonk has illustrated this the best with his posts).

The biggest problem in my opinion is that neither side is trying to create a supermajority. And that is what it takes to govern like Clinton did (the last POTUS to do so).

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/23/opinion/electoral-college.html

I’d argue that the Republican Party in its current iteration needs to be destroyed and burned to the ground, then rebuilt into something else. So yes I want to see Republicans get crushed at all levels of government for their own good.

And it’s ridiculous to claim that the GND is worse for the country than Trump. As it stands it’s a very broad policy proposal not actually proposed law. I’d expect that the details hammered out and flaws that you see in the GND will be addressed when it can be realistically passed.

[Pointgod]

Both parties are just out to destroy each other now (Zonk has illustrated this the best with his posts).

Yes!!

And their supporters are to short sighted/delusional too see it.

So tell me what’s your suggestion to get things back on the right track? I’m not being antogonisic, just curious as to what you see as the solution to the state of the government.

[dckingsfan]

The biggest problem with the current political climate is Republicans, full stop, period. I don’t know how you don’t see everything they’re doing to destroy Democracy and the country and think “hmmm Democrats are just as bad”. Ideally in a functioning Democracy both parties would be working together on major pieces of legislation, using trade offs, compromises and debating the merits. Republicans refused to work with Obama, you can continue to see how they became even more corrupt with Trump. The party is full of anarchists, it’s not a party that’s able to govern. If two years controlling all 3 branches of government wasn’t enough evidence then I don’t know what is. Adding more parties to the mix isn’t a better recipe for governance as you can see in places like the UK.

I’m obviously a partisan but I’m not out of any crazy tribalism, but because of reality. The parties are so polarized that all switching power back and forth does is guarantee little progress. After Clinton, instead of voting Gore and setting the framework for a better country, you voted in Bush who was an absolute disaster that started multiple wars, blew up the surplus and set the stage for a global economic collapse. Obama comes in and has to clean up Bushes mess, but he gets hamstrung for 6 years because of Republicans in Congress, just when you’ve gotten to a recovery Trump comes in and starts to undo everything Obama did. So the next Democratic President is going to have to undo the immense damage Trump has caused, while trying to push a more progressive agenda. You see pattern here? It’s always a back and forth until there’s a definitive direction. I’m just saying voters need to choose that direction. Imagine 20 years of Democratic majority or 20 years of Republican majority and vote the outcome that you think leaves the country better off in the long run.

First, I think this is a bit of revisionist history. Gore ran a terrible campaign. He was stiff. And Bush wasn't terrible until 9/11 - he basically followed what Clinton did. It the overreaction to 9/11 that was his undoing. And remember, Obama had a supermajority until he pissed it away with a poor stimulus and a focus on healthcare instead of the economy as we came out of the great recession. Also note, that although he was hamstrung by the Rs, the economy and government receipts and outlays were best during that period.

You are right that this administration sucks and needs to go... but then you have the GND proposal that would be even worse for the country than Trump. The Ds aren't moving toward a supermajority either. Both parties are just out to destroy each other now (Zonk has illustrated this the best with his posts).

The biggest problem in my opinion is that neither side is trying to create a supermajority. And that is what it takes to govern like Clinton did (the last POTUS to do so).

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/23/opinion/electoral-college.html

I’d argue that the Republican Party in its current iteration needs to be destroyed and burned to the ground, then rebuilt into something else. So yes I want to see Republicans get crushed at all levels of government for their own good.

And it’s ridiculous to claim that the GND is worse for the country than Trump. As it stands it’s a very broad policy proposal not actually proposed law. I’d expect that the details hammered out and flaws that you see in the GND will be addressed when it can be realistically passed.

Well, this proves my point in two ways. First, "destroy the other side" and a willful ignorance of the GND proposal and how it sets back CCUS and mitigation to chase something that is unachievable (kind of like the wall).

The moderates of both parties need to step in and subdue the irrationality. If someone from one party actually has a discussion with someone from the other party that is a good thing - those that immediately call out that person for "conspiring with the enemy" need to be berated.

If you believe that we need to have a dialog about global warming and climate change, well, you are going to need Rs to get it done. If the Ds take back POTUS in 2020, it is highly unlikely they will grab the senate:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-senate-will-be-competitive-again-in-2020-but-republicans-are-favored/

And you don't do that by making a proposal like the GND. Where you ignore two thirds of the solution and set a panic timeline.

[closg00]

Hmm, so Mueller turned the evidence over to Trumps DOJ, and Barr/Rosenstein decided that Trump didn't obstruct justice

Read on Twitter

[Wizardspride]

Hmm, so Mueller turned the evidence over to Trumps DOJ, and Barr/Rosenstein decided that Trump didn't obstruct justice

Read on Twitter

And that's how you know it's crap.

I could see collusion being hard to prove but the obstruction was RIGHT there.

Just heard something interesting:

Mueller didn't conclude obstruction didn't take place. That decision was left up to AG Barr.

[stilldropin20]

Hmm, so Mueller turned the evidence over to Trumps DOJ, and Barr/Rosenstein decided that Trump didn't obstruct justice

Read on Twitter

And that's how you know it's crap.

I could see collusion being hard to prove but the obstruction was RIGHT there.

Just heard something interesting:

Mueller didn't conclude obstruction didn't take place. That decision was left up to AG Barr.

[Wizardspride]

[closg00]

Hmm, so Mueller turned the evidence over to Trumps DOJ, and Barr/Rosenstein decided that Trump didn't obstruct justice

Read on Twitter

And that's how you know it's crap.

I could see collusion being hard to prove but the obstruction was RIGHT there.

Just heard something interesting:

Mueller didn't conclude obstruction didn't take place. That decision was left up to AG Barr.

That was my point,Catch & Kill complete. They made a political decision not to indict, let's see the underlying evidence information.

[Wizardspride]

Hmm, so Mueller turned the evidence over to Trumps DOJ, and Barr/Rosenstein decided that Trump didn't obstruct justice

Read on Twitter

And that's how you know it's crap.

I could see collusion being hard to prove but the obstruction was RIGHT there.

Just heard something interesting:

Mueller didn't conclude obstruction didn't take place. That decision was left up to AG Barr.

That was my point,Catch & Kill complete. They made a political decision not to indict, let's see the underlying evidence information.

Since Trump is obviously innocent I expect him not fight the release of the full report.

If/when the public sees that report I'll make a determination.

[stilldropin20]

And that's how you know it's crap.

I could see collusion being hard to prove but the obstruction was RIGHT there.

Just heard something interesting:

Mueller didn't conclude obstruction didn't take place. That decision was left up to AG Barr.

That was my point,Catch & Kill complete. They made a political decision not to indict, let's see the underlying evidence information.

Since Trump is obviously innocent I expect him not fight the release of the full report.

If/when the public sees that report I'll make a determination.

mueller is clear: "no collusion. no conspiracy...by anyone...trump. trump campaign...any american"

Democrats are literally the most corrupt group of animals alive. they(HRC/DNC/obama attorneys) bought and paid for the dossier and used russians to gain info. then the OBAMA DOJ used that dossier to mislead the fisa courts. Once the h and disgustingly and horrifically corrupt obama DOJ had fisa warrants they leaked info obtained from those FISA warrants to trip up the Trump presidency in its infancy to derail it. Then the democrats went on CNN and NBC and twitter every single day for 2 years to call trump a traitor.

As Trump defended himself (of collusion and conspiracy) in public...democrat then claim trump is obstructing.

Mueller: no collusion. no conspiracy. No evidence of obstruction.

[Wizardspride]

That was my point,Catch & Kill complete. They made a political decision not to indict, let's see the underlying evidence information.

Since Trump is obviously innocent I expect him not fight the release of the full report.

If/when the public sees that report I'll make a determination.

mueller is clear: "no collusion. no conspiracy...by anyone...trump. trump campaign...any american"

Democrats are literally the most corrupt group of animals alive. they(HRC/DNC/obama attorneys) bought and paid for the dossier and used russians to gain info. then the OBAMA DOJ used that dossier to mislead the fisa courts. Once the h and disgustingly and horrifically corrupt obama DOJ had fisa warrants they leaked info obtained from those FISA warrants to trip up the Trump presidency in its infancy to derail it. Then the democrats went on CNN and NBC and twitter every single day for 2 years to call trump a traitor.

As Trump defended himself (of collusion and conspiracy) in public...democrat then claim trump is obstructing.

Mueller: no collusion. no conspiracy. No evidence of obstruction.

Cool...but since I don't particularly trust Barr, I'd like to see the actual report.

Thanks

[closg00]

mueller is clear: "no collusion. no conspiracy...by anyone...trump. trump campaign...any american"

Democrats are literally the most corrupt group of animals alive. they(HRC/DNC/obama attorneys) bought and paid for the dossier and used russians to gain info. then the OBAMA DOJ used that dossier to mislead the fisa courts. Once the h and disgustingly and horrifically corrupt obama DOJ had fisa warrants they leaked info obtained from those FISA warrants to trip up the Trump presidency in its infancy to derail it. Then the democrats went on CNN and NBC and twitter every single day for 2 years to call trump a traitor.

As Trump defended himself (of collusion and conspiracy) in public...democrat then claim trump is obstructing.

Mueller: no collusion. no conspiracy. No evidence of obstruction.

Your entire narrative is false and easily debunked . Obama officials knew that Trump/peeps were under investigation during the campaign , but DID NOT disclose it to the media when it could have damaged Trump, same goes for the FBI. Debunked.

[gtn130]

We haven’t seen the report and Barr is a partisan hand-picked to end the investigation. I never thought Mueller would take down Trump but this four page letter today contains very little of substance.

[Pointgod]

First, I think this is a bit of revisionist history. Gore ran a terrible campaign. He was stiff. And Bush wasn't terrible until 9/11 - he basically followed what Clinton did. It the overreaction to 9/11 that was his undoing. And remember, Obama had a supermajority until he pissed it away with a poor stimulus and a focus on healthcare instead of the economy as we came out of the great recession. Also note, that although he was hamstrung by the Rs, the economy and government receipts and outlays were best during that period.

You are right that this administration sucks and needs to go... but then you have the GND proposal that would be even worse for the country than Trump. The Ds aren't moving toward a supermajority either. Both parties are just out to destroy each other now (Zonk has illustrated this the best with his posts).

The biggest problem in my opinion is that neither side is trying to create a supermajority. And that is what it takes to govern like Clinton did (the last POTUS to do so).

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/23/opinion/electoral-college.html

I’d argue that the Republican Party in its current iteration needs to be destroyed and burned to the ground, then rebuilt into something else. So yes I want to see Republicans get crushed at all levels of government for their own good.

And it’s ridiculous to claim that the GND is worse for the country than Trump. As it stands it’s a very broad policy proposal not actually proposed law. I’d expect that the details hammered out and flaws that you see in the GND will be addressed when it can be realistically passed.

Well, this proves my point in two ways. First, "destroy the other side" and a willful ignorance of the GND proposal and how it sets back CCUS and mitigation to chase something that is unachievable (kind of like the wall).

The moderates of both parties need to step in and subdue the irrationality. If someone from one party actually has a discussion with someone from the other party that is a good thing - those that immediately call out that person for "conspiring with the enemy" need to be berated.

If you believe that we need to have a dialog about global warming and climate change, well, you are going to need Rs to get it done. If the Ds take back POTUS in 2020, it is highly unlikely they will grab the senate:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-senate-will-be-competitive-again-in-2020-but-republicans-are-favored/

And you don't do that by making a proposal like the GND. Where you ignore two thirds of the solution and set a panic timeline.

All though it’s not an actual policy proposal I’m happy to discuss the GND in separate conversation thread.

As for the Republican Party, yes I stand by what I said. It needs to be destroyed and rebuilt into something else. It’s become the party of Trump and they’ve continually put politics and party over country and done everything to subvert Democracy. Everything from gerrymandering, voter supression (see Georgia and Florida) and outright voter fraud (see North Carolina) and hamstringing Democratically elected officials (see Wisconsin). IMO the reason the party needs to be destroyed on all levels of government is to send a clear message that their corruption and subversion of Democracy can’t be rewarded. Imagine the precedent it sets of Trump gets re-elected and Republicans don’t get wiped out country wide? It’s a signal that corruption is accepted and they can literally do whatever they want because there are no consequences. And this doesn’t just set the precedent for future Republican Presidents, why would a Democratic President and Congress follow the rule of law and Democratic norms when the voters have signalled it doesn’t matter. Want to make money off the Presidency? Doesn’t matter because Trump did it. Want to appoint Supreme Court justices that will personally protect your interests? Obstruct Justice why not? As long as Congress has your back why bother with Democracy? If you want to save the patient cut off the rot and that rot begins with the current Republican Party.

[Pointgod]

We haven’t seen the report and Barr is a partisan hand-picked to end the investigation. I never thought Mueller would take down Trump but this four page letter today contains very little of substance.

It’s perfectly timed to match up with my whole Republican Party is corrupt stance. It’s obvious Barr is in the tank for Trump, not sure why Rosenstein went along. So much for all those people that claimed Barr was a serious AG candidate that would respect the rule of law.

[Pointgod]

mueller is clear: "no collusion. no conspiracy...by anyone...trump. trump campaign...any american"

Democrats are literally the most corrupt group of animals alive. they(HRC/DNC/obama attorneys) bought and paid for the dossier and used russians to gain info. then the OBAMA DOJ used that dossier to mislead the fisa courts. Once the h and disgustingly and horrifically corrupt obama DOJ had fisa warrants they leaked info obtained from those FISA warrants to trip up the Trump presidency in its infancy to derail it. Then the democrats went on CNN and NBC and twitter every single day for 2 years to call trump a traitor.

As Trump defended himself (of collusion and conspiracy) in public...democrat then claim trump is obstructing.

Mueller: no collusion. no conspiracy. No evidence of obstruction.

Your entire narrative is false and easily debunked . Obama officials knew that Trump/peeps were under investigation during the campaign , but DID NOT disclose it to the media when it could have damaged Trump, same goes for the FBI. Debunked.

You know those crazy people that cover their trucks in Trump paraphernalia or drive around with a replica Trump wall? That’s STD in his purest form. He’s either literally not right in his head or he’s an attention seeking moron.

[FAH1223]

We haven’t seen the report and Barr is a partisan hand-picked to end the investigation. I never thought Mueller would take down Trump but this four page letter today contains very little of substance.

It’s perfectly timed to match up with my whole Republican Party is corrupt stance. It’s obvious Barr is in the tank for Trump, not sure why Rosenstein went along. So much for all those people that claimed Barr was a serious AG candidate that would respect the rule of law.

Rosenstein was part of the Comey firing. He's not going to get caught up on obstruction.

[FAH1223]

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[Pointgod]

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Those are some shockingly bad takes.