Statistical proof of LeBron’s HORRIFIC defense

[CeltsFlow]

High-level answer - defense is very difficult to measure as it is super contextual with significant interaction effects. The publicly available data that I have seen either does not account for these difficulties for various reasons – lack of data, poor approach, etc…

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/8c1x8q/im_daryl_morey_general_manager_of_the_houston/dxbhq33/

LeBron is still a great 1v1 defender, don't get me wrong, and he certainly still has that aura around him when players attack/drive to the rim, with the intimidation factor and whatnot, but defensive stats won't necessarily account for his lazy attributes on defense, i.e the plays he takes off. He's only a bad defender when he wants to be, unfortunately that happens more often than usual as he gets up there in age. Just something to keep in mind, after all, the eye test always provides more context

Edit: Not just watching lowlights or defensive reels, but watching games as a whole. There's no real substitute for that, but of course, many people don't have time for that, so stats like APM, on-off rating are usually the next best thing.

[levon]

All defenders take plays off. All defenders have mental slip-ups. The only difference is nobody cares about them, because Lebron is the most highly scrutinized athlete since Kobe.

When he came back from injury, he was no doubt lacking. I remember going back and forth with the OP about this very thing. However now I'd like to commend their effort in displaying a statistically sound argument instead of zoomed in Twitter videos that lack context about coverage. And certainly, Lebron's defense has picked up greatly as he's gotten into shape, which has in turn lifted the energy of the team. He played great D last night for example.

I'm still of the mind Lebron kind of sabotaged the Lakers when he came back from injury so he can have the offseason. He could've played way, way better.

[E-Balla]

The Lakers actually have a 106.9 DRTG with Lebron on the court and a 108.9 without him.

[MarcusBrody]

I think the data provided is pretty consistent with an unbiased eye-test, but as people have said, it needs context.

Lebron has been lazy on closeouts. That's his biggest sin and it shows in the stats. He's actually also a decent 1v1 defender and that shows as well.

Lebron's laziness occasionally hurts team defense (slow rotations), and that's harder to pick up in these type of stats. But he actually isn't a bad team defender for a couple of reasons:
1. He does tend to loaf in high leverage positions
2. He's a good rebounder
3. (And this is what I haven't seen talked about as much here) Teams almost never hunt him on defense. With a lot of bad defenders, other teams try to force switches to exploit mismatches. Even in laze mode, Lebron is one of the more versatile defenders out there, so when he's resting on a low threat player teams are very unlikely to try to force him to switch onto a higher threat player. This limits the effectiveness of potential offensive sets as it limits the amount that teams will use Lebron's limited man in what's often his most effective role (screener).

[freethedevil]

I think the data provided is pretty consistent with an unbiased eye-test, but as people have said, it needs context.

Lebron has been lazy on closeouts. That's his biggest sin and it shows in the stats. He's actually also a decent 1v1 defender and that shows as well.

Lebron's laziness occasionally hurts team defense (slow rotations), and that's harder to pick up in these type of stats. But he actually isn't a bad team defender for a couple of reasons:
1. He does tend to loaf in high leverage positions
2. He's a good rebounder
3. (And this is what I haven't seen talked about as much here) Teams almost never hunt him on defense. With a lot of bad defenders, other teams try to force switches to exploit mismatches. Even in laze mode, Lebron is one of the more versatile defenders out there, so when he's resting on a low threat player teams are very unlikely to try to force him to switch onto a higher threat player. This limits the effectiveness of potential offensive sets as it limits the amount that teams will use Lebron's limited man in what's often his most effective role (screener).

'
So nice to see someone use the eyetest properly.

[RobParkerFS1]

Considering the eye test is literally 100% invalid when it comes to defense I don't think this really matters.

The only thing that matters on the defensive end is how often a team scores.

Defense is 50% effort, 25% skill & 25% athleticism/physical attributes. The eye test definitely has limits, but it clearly exposes a player’s lackadaisical attitude towards certain possessions that cannot be validated by mere statistics.

LeBron used to be a great defender, but he definitely slowed down and it’s not due to physical limitations but with his lack of interest. He definitely checked out when he realized how difficult it is to rule the West.

Just my two cents...

Where are you getting those numbers from?

And regardless, even if Lebron supposedly only gives "50%" effort on defense, he's still better than most NBA players and improves his team on that side of the ball.

Yeah I guess he's not as good as he used to be, but that is irrelevant because he's still pretty good on that end as basically every metric shows. He sure as hell is better than he was last year as far as I can tell, and last year he probably had one of the worst defensive supporting casts for a playoff team in NBA history.

Is that the Lebron Cavs team which had the highest payroll ever in the history of the NBA and played in the historically weak Eastern Conference?

That’s the team you’re describing as “the worst defensive supportive cast for a playoff team in NBA history”?

When did you start watching the basketball?

[Impuniti]

I wonder who'll take the HATE mantle once Lebron retires.

If you've actually been on realgm the last few years, it's been the Warriors by a landslide.

[RoyceDa59]

LeBron has always been known as an elite game-changing defender.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[nikster]

Defense is 50% effort, 25% skill & 25% athleticism/physical attributes. The eye test definitely has limits, but it clearly exposes a player’s lackadaisical attitude towards certain possessions that cannot be validated by mere statistics.

LeBron used to be a great defender, but he definitely slowed down and it’s not due to physical limitations but with his lack of interest. He definitely checked out when he realized how difficult it is to rule the West.

Just my two cents...

Where are you getting those numbers from?

And regardless, even if Lebron supposedly only gives "50%" effort on defense, he's still better than most NBA players and improves his team on that side of the ball.

Yeah I guess he's not as good as he used to be, but that is irrelevant because he's still pretty good on that end as basically every metric shows. He sure as hell is better than he was last year as far as I can tell, and last year he probably had one of the worst defensive supporting casts for a playoff team in NBA history.

Is that the Lebron Cavs team which had the highest payroll ever in the history of the NBA and played in the historically weak Eastern Conference?

That’s the team you’re describing as “the worst defensive supportive cast for a playoff team in NBA history”?

When did you start watching the basketball?

Does payroll make a team any better defensively? They had a roster full of overpaid one dimensional players. The talent defensively was objectively terrible, and I can’t think of a contender that was any worse

[floppymoose]

I don't believe those individual, or synergy-style stats can really do much to answer a question like "how good is this player overall on defense?"

I'd rather look at how the team defensive stats are affected when they are on the court vs off. We have that (in raw form at least) here:
http://www.82games.com/1819/18LAL14.HTM#onoff

Going from that I'd say he is a good but not great defender.

If we roll back the clock a few years and look at:
http://www.82games.com/1415/14CLE11.HTM#onoff

than at that point in time he looks like a great defender.

[RobParkerFS1]

Where are you getting those numbers from?

And regardless, even if Lebron supposedly only gives "50%" effort on defense, he's still better than most NBA players and improves his team on that side of the ball.

Yeah I guess he's not as good as he used to be, but that is irrelevant because he's still pretty good on that end as basically every metric shows. He sure as hell is better than he was last year as far as I can tell, and last year he probably had one of the worst defensive supporting casts for a playoff team in NBA history.

Is that the Lebron Cavs team which had the highest payroll ever in the history of the NBA and played in the historically weak Eastern Conference?

That’s the team you’re describing as “the worst defensive supportive cast for a playoff team in NBA history”?

When did you start watching the basketball?

Does payroll make a team any better defensively? They had a roster full of overpaid one dimensional players. The talent defensively was objectively terrible, and I can’t think of a contender that was any worse

Lebron just never has enough help.

[Heej]

The thing is here that most important people on this board haven't coached a team at any point, or probably weren't the high IQ guys on their HS bball team so the value of being a "yellow light" on help defense is underappreciated.

Bron might rest a crap load on defense, but he loafs around in the high leverage real estate areas on the court. Then when he closes out he still has that aura where shooters get shook even on a half hearted closeout. Also he's a plus defensive rebounder for his position which is inarguably the most important part of defense.

We go through this every year where people crap on LeBron and then Zach Lowe goes on a podcast after he talks to some league guys about their internal metrics and they all tell him "nope, he's still good"

Who cares though, people wanna follow whatever narrative they wish to follow.

LOL even better than Zach Lowe, we got this guy. And even then, I feel like Elgee substantially understates the impact LeBron has on defense just from calling out sets/actions and pointing guys to the right spots

Watch on YouTube

[SlowPaced]

Also he's a plus defensive rebounder for his position which is inarguably the most important part of defense.

I can't believe a comment that has this inane sentence in it got seven And-1s.

[nikster]

Is that the Lebron Cavs team which had the highest payroll ever in the history of the NBA and played in the historically weak Eastern Conference?

That’s the team you’re describing as “the worst defensive supportive cast for a playoff team in NBA history”?

When did you start watching the basketball?

Does payroll make a team any better defensively? They had a roster full of overpaid one dimensional players. The talent defensively was objectively terrible, and I can’t think of a contender that was any worse

Lebron just never has enough help.

Want to provide answers with substance or are you just interested in these lazy narratives. Can you think of any teams that made it far, even in a weak conference, that had less talent defensively?

[Heej]

Also he's a plus defensive rebounder for his position which is inarguably the most important part of defense.

I can't believe a comment that has this inane sentence in it got seven And-1s.

If you think that comment is inane your bball IQ is lower than I've given you credit for all the years that I've seen your low effort posts here.

https://www.numberfire.com/nba/news/3564/the-correlation-between-team-stats-and-offensive-and-defensive-efficiency-part-4-rebounds

The only basic box score metric that might serve as a better litmus test for your defensive performance that night is 3PFGM. And even then that one over the course of a season isn't that reliable an indicator. Rebounds are why centers still matter in a perimeter league, doubly so in a switchy one such as hours. But I suppose I can't expect you to reason through that, can I?

[G35]

Does payroll make a team any better defensively? They had a roster full of overpaid one dimensional players. The talent defensively was objectively terrible, and I can’t think of a contender that was any worse

Lebron just never has enough help.

Want to provide answers with substance or are you just interested in these lazy narratives. Can you think of any teams that made it far, even in a weak conference, that had less talent defensively?

What's the difference between that answer and Lebron's closeout defense...can you think of any player that has had as much help in a weak conference that has not made it far?......

[nikster]

Lebron just never has enough help.

Want to provide answers with substance or are you just interested in these lazy narratives. Can you think of any teams that made it far, even in a weak conference, that had less talent defensively?

What's the difference between that answer and Lebron's closeout defense...can you think of any player that has had as much help in a weak conference that has not made it far?......

That’s a different question. Those Cavs teams were talented, it’s not like Lebron was much of an underdog. But they were objectively terrible defensively

[AussieBuck]

I wonder who'll take the HATE mantle once Lebron retires.

Most of the usual suspects have started transitioning to Giannis.

[ShotCreator]

The thing is here that most important people on this board haven't coached a team at any point, or probably weren't the high IQ guys on their HS bball team so the value of being a "yellow light" on help defense is underappreciated.

Bron might rest a crap load on defense, but he loafs around in the high leverage real estate areas on the court. Then when he closes out he still has that aura where shooters get shook even on a half hearted closeout. Also he's a plus defensive rebounder for his position which is inarguably the most important part of defense.

We go through this every year where people crap on LeBron and then Zach Lowe goes on a podcast after he talks to some league guys about their internal metrics and they all tell him "nope, he's still good"

Who cares though, people wanna follow whatever narrative they wish to follow.

LOL even better than Zach Lowe, we got this guy. And even then, I feel like Elgee substantially understates the impact LeBron has on defense just from calling out sets/actions and pointing guys to the right spots

Watch on YouTube

He absolutely does but he’s in objectivity prison because he wants to maintain credibility with people who ironically know less than he does, his viewers.

Or maybe he’s kinda overrated. Doubt it though.

[SlowPaced]

Also he's a plus defensive rebounder for his position which is inarguably the most important part of defense.

I can't believe a comment that has this inane sentence in it got seven And-1s.

If you think that comment is inane your bball IQ is lower than I've given you credit for all the years that I've seen your low effort posts here.

https://www.numberfire.com/nba/news/3564/the-correlation-between-team-stats-and-offensive-and-defensive-efficiency-part-4-rebounds

The only basic box score metric that might serve as a better litmus test for your defensive performance that night is 3PFGM. And even then that one over the course of a season isn't that reliable an indicator. Rebounds are why centers still matter in a perimeter league, doubly so in a switchy one such as hours. But I suppose I can't expect you to reason through that, can I?

Rim protection and shot contests are why centers still matter. Can you please tell me what the Top 3-ranked defenses this year, the Bucks, the Jazz and the Pacers have in common? That's right, it's rim protection.

Most important parts of defense are rim protection, guarding the pick 'n' roll and ability to defend in space. Defensive rebounding is nowhere near being the most important part of defense. Is Andre Drummond one of the best defenders in the game? Is DeMarcus Cousins? Is Enes Kanter? Is Karl-Anthony Towns?

You are embarrassing yourself. Spare me the "low effort posts throughout the years" drivel by the way, stick to the conversation.