3/29 | G76: Denver Nuggets at Oklahoma City Thunder - 7PM CST

[Pillendreher]

I’m bored of the players vs coach argument. Let’s just clean house because if we get rid of one and it turns out to not be the problem then we’ve wasted another year.

"Cleaning house" is not a possible scenario in any sort of way. They're not going to tear this down.

[ThunderBolt]

I’m bored of the players vs coach argument. Let’s just clean house because if we get rid of one and it turns out to not be the problem then we’ve wasted another year.

"Cleaning house" is not a possible scenario in any sort of way. They're not going to tear this down.

Well buckle up. They’ve already picked up Donovan’s options.

[Kizz Fastfists]

"Cleaning house" is not a possible scenario in any sort of way. They're not going to tear this down.

The only way they clean house is if ownership ends up in the red to a point that they feel Presti has completely failed. At that time they replace Presti and it will be a very interesting off-season. There is a non zero chance that happens, but it is highly unlikely. The most likely scenario is some minor moves that don't change anything.

OKC might find a way to dump some combination of Schroder, Roberson and Patterson to reduce the tax. They could resign Noel to the tax MLE. They could just bring everyone except Noel back and add their rookie. Assuming they don't do anything crazy this off-season, i.e. trade PG to start a rebuild, I could see a scenario where they fire Presti next off-season and start a rebuild with a new front office if they miss the playoffs.

[Pillendreher]

"Cleaning house" is not a possible scenario in any sort of way. They're not going to tear this down.

The only way they clean house is if ownership ends up in the red to a point that they feel Presti has completely failed. At that time they replace Presti and it will be a very interesting off-season. There is a non zero chance that happens, but it is highly unlikely. The most likely scenario is some minor moves that don't change anything.

Even if Presti were fired, the new guy couldn't come in and get rid of everybody. He'd forever had the stigma of ending whatever success the Thunder had in the last decade.

[ThunderBolt]

"Cleaning house" is not a possible scenario in any sort of way. They're not going to tear this down.

The only way they clean house is if ownership ends up in the red to a point that they feel Presti has completely failed. At that time they replace Presti and it will be a very interesting off-season. There is a non zero chance that happens, but it is highly unlikely. The most likely scenario is some minor moves that don't change anything.

Even if Presti were fired, the new guy couldn't come in and get rid of everybody. He'd forever had the stigma of ending whatever success the Thunder had in the last decade.

Thats only true if the new guy were to be unsuccessful.

[Pillendreher]

The only way they clean house is if ownership ends up in the red to a point that they feel Presti has completely failed. At that time they replace Presti and it will be a very interesting off-season. There is a non zero chance that happens, but it is highly unlikely. The most likely scenario is some minor moves that don't change anything.

Even if Presti were fired, the new guy couldn't come in and get rid of everybody. He'd forever had the stigma of ending whatever success the Thunder had in the last decade.

Thats only true if the new guy were to be unsuccessful.

Define success in this scenario. Tearing everything down and then completely sucking for the next 5 years would not be a success to me. We don't have any idea what it's like to root for a team that does not matter.

[SecondTake]

I’m bored of the players vs coach argument. Let’s just clean house because if we get rid of one and it turns out to not be the problem then we’ve wasted another year.

We have a former MVP averaging 20/10/11 and a top 3 MVP candidate on this team and you want to clean house. How about we get a new coach and a couple of shooters first and see what happens?

[ThunderBolt]

Even if Presti were fired, the new guy couldn't come in and get rid of everybody. He'd forever had the stigma of ending whatever success the Thunder had in the last decade.

Thats only true if the new guy were to be unsuccessful.

Define success in this scenario. Tearing everything down and then completely sucking for the next 5 years would not be a success to me. We don't have any idea what it's like to root for a team that does not matter.

It's impossible to find an exact replica of our situation. I think the clippers have done pretty well moving on from their franchise players. They lost Paul and moved on from Griffin. Also, I think the Hawks are showing a lot of promise for essentially being in year two of a rebuild. The hawks might not get any better but if had a rookie and second year player that were both playing well along with future assets then I would feel relatively good moving forward. I think the Hawks rebuild has shown some promise but they also waited a little too long to pull the plug.

I think a lot of people compare a rebuilding team with the okc's teams that were finals contenders in okc. If that's what he currently had or I saw a realistic way get back to that point then I see the argument against it. I think that ship has sailed. Donovan has already had his option picked up and the other issues are well documented. While I dont necessarily think a rebuild means guaranteed immediate success, I also don't think its hard to get back to the 8th seed with a rebuild. Once we are sniffing the playoffs the question becomes is it easier to build for the future with an ageing superstar and hardly any assets and cap space which we currently have or with a young core, cap space and more picks. That's what it comes down to for me.

Yes we could suck for 5 years if we rebuild. We could also suck for 8-10 years if we don't rebuild and hang on too long. I'm not really a fan of the Heinke approach. I dont like intentionally establishing a losing culture. I think several teams have shown that you don't have to intentionally suck for half a decade to put together a competitive team.

[ThunderBolt]

I’m bored of the players vs coach argument. Let’s just clean house because if we get rid of one and it turns out to not be the problem then we’ve wasted another year.

We have a former MVP averaging 20/10/11 and a top 3 MVP candidate on this team and you want to clean house. How about we get a new coach and a couple of shooters first and see what happens?

Derrick Rose is a former mvp too. How about you do some research on players that rely on athleticism and how their game ages after they hit 30?

[Pillendreher]

It's impossible to find an exact replica of our situation. I think the clippers have done pretty well moving on from their franchise players. They lost Paul and moved on from Griffin.

Meh. They are bound for mediocrity unless for whatever reason a superstar decides to join them. They have a bunch of good roleplayers, but their youth isn't all that intriguing moving forward. There's a hard cap on that team.

Also, I think the Hawks are showing a lot of promise for essentially being in year two of a rebuild. The hawks might not get any better but if had a rookie and second year player that were both playing well along with future assets then I would feel relatively good moving forward. I think the Hawks rebuild has shown some promise but they also waited a little too long to pull the plug.

We'll see about them. I'm always sceptical about teams playing better in the latter months of the sesaon because it's the "random things happen because half the league doesn't care anymore" part of the season (see last season's Lakers). But yeah, they look like they have a couple of nice players.

I think a lot of people compare a rebuilding team with the okc's teams that were finals contenders in okc. If that's what he currently had or I saw a realistic way get back to that point then I see the argument against it. I think that ship has sailed. Donovan has already had his option picked up and the other issues are well documented. While I dont necessarily think a rebuild means guaranteed immediate success, I also don't think its hard to get back to the 8th seed with a rebuild. Once we are sniffing the playoffs the question becomes is it easier to build for the future with an ageing superstar and hardly any assets and cap space which we currently have or with a young core, cap space and more picks. That's what it comes down to for me.

Yes we could suck for 5 years if we rebuild. We could also suck for 8-10 years if we don't rebuild and hang on too long. I'm not really a fan of the Heinke approach. I dont like intentionally establishing a losing culture. I think several teams have shown that you don't have to intentionally suck for half a decade to put together a competitive team.

And yet there are also so many teams that shown the complete opposite. I also get the part about just having hope for the future. But then again, that might be just as futile as being hopeful right now. At least with the current core, you know the potential to be great is there. And finally, let's be real: You can plan as much as you want to, but in the end it comes down to simply getting lucky. Just look at the respective Top 10 picked in the last 5 drafts. How many of those 50 picks will become franchise changing players? You can look at Towns and go "Maybe, but I doubt it". Embiid is probably the real deal. What about Simmons? Will he ever learn to shoot? What about Tatum? There are several intriguing guys, but chances are not even a handful of them will really matter down the road.

Most of the intriguing young teams did not go down the "Let's just suck for 5 years and try to get lucky" road. They got lucky within the process of just trying to stay afloat.

[ThunderBolt]

Spoiler:

It's impossible to find an exact replica of our situation. I think the clippers have done pretty well moving on from their franchise players. They lost Paul and moved on from Griffin.

Meh. They are bound for mediocrity unless for whatever reason a superstar decides to join them. They have a bunch of good roleplayers, but their youth isn't all that intriguing moving forward. There's a hard cap on that team.

Also, I think the Hawks are showing a lot of promise for essentially being in year two of a rebuild. The hawks might not get any better but if had a rookie and second year player that were both playing well along with future assets then I would feel relatively good moving forward. I think the Hawks rebuild has shown some promise but they also waited a little too long to pull the plug.

We'll see about them. I'm always sceptical about teams playing better in the latter months of the sesaon because it's the "random things happen because half the league doesn't care anymore" part of the season (see last season's Lakers). But yeah, they look like they have a couple of nice players.

I think a lot of people compare a rebuilding team with the okc's teams that were finals contenders in okc. If that's what he currently had or I saw a realistic way get back to that point then I see the argument against it. I think that ship has sailed. Donovan has already had his option picked up and the other issues are well documented. While I dont necessarily think a rebuild means guaranteed immediate success, I also don't think its hard to get back to the 8th seed with a rebuild. Once we are sniffing the playoffs the question becomes is it easier to build for the future with an ageing superstar and hardly any assets and cap space which we currently have or with a young core, cap space and more picks. That's what it comes down to for me.

Yes we could suck for 5 years if we rebuild. We could also suck for 8-10 years if we don't rebuild and hang on too long. I'm not really a fan of the Heinke approach. I dont like intentionally establishing a losing culture. I think several teams have shown that you don't have to intentionally suck for half a decade to put together a competitive team.

And yet there are also so many teams that shown the complete opposite. I also get the part about just having hope for the future. But then again, that might be just as futile as being hopeful right now. At least with the current core, you know the potential to be great is there. And finally, let's be real: You can plan as much as you want to, but in the end it comes down to simply getting lucky. Just look at the respective Top 10 picked in the last 5 drafts. How many of those 50 picks will become franchise changing players? You can look at Towns and go "Maybe, but I doubt it". Embiid is probably the real deal. What about Simmons? Will he ever learn to shoot? What about Tatum? There are several intriguing guys, but chances are not even a handful of them will really matter down the road.

Most of the intriguing young teams did not go down the "Let's just suck for 5 years and try to get lucky" road. They got lucky within the process of just trying to stay afloat.

I don't disagree with a lot of that. Whatever path you choose you'll have to have some luck. The reason I'm beyond frustrated currently is we have almost eliminated the possibility of luck- we extended Donovan, we are capped out, we have traded too many picks and the young guys we have are kind of meh. There is a feeling that we've painted ourselves into a corner. Tbh, i just want to see a way to being a true contender and I can't right now.

[Pillendreher]

It's impossible to find an exact replica of our situation. I think the clippers have done pretty well moving on from their franchise players. They lost Paul and moved on from Griffin.

Meh. They are bound for mediocrity unless for whatever reason a superstar decides to join them. They have a bunch of good roleplayers, but their youth isn't all that intriguing moving forward. There's a hard cap on that team.

Also, I think the Hawks are showing a lot of promise for essentially being in year two of a rebuild. The hawks might not get any better but if had a rookie and second year player that were both playing well along with future assets then I would feel relatively good moving forward. I think the Hawks rebuild has shown some promise but they also waited a little too long to pull the plug.

We'll see about them. I'm always sceptical about teams playing better in the latter months of the sesaon because it's the "random things happen because half the league doesn't care anymore" part of the season (see last season's Lakers). But yeah, they look like they have a couple of nice players.

I think a lot of people compare a rebuilding team with the okc's teams that were finals contenders in okc. If that's what he currently had or I saw a realistic way get back to that point then I see the argument against it. I think that ship has sailed. Donovan has already had his option picked up and the other issues are well documented. While I dont necessarily think a rebuild means guaranteed immediate success, I also don't think its hard to get back to the 8th seed with a rebuild. Once we are sniffing the playoffs the question becomes is it easier to build for the future with an ageing superstar and hardly any assets and cap space which we currently have or with a young core, cap space and more picks. That's what it comes down to for me.

Yes we could suck for 5 years if we rebuild. We could also suck for 8-10 years if we don't rebuild and hang on too long. I'm not really a fan of the Heinke approach. I dont like intentionally establishing a losing culture. I think several teams have shown that you don't have to intentionally suck for half a decade to put together a competitive team.

And yet there are also so many teams that shown the complete opposite. I also get the part about just having hope for the future. But then again, that might be just as futile as being hopeful right now. At least with the current core, you know the potential to be great is there. And finally, let's be real: You can plan as much as you want to, but in the end it comes down to simply getting lucky. Just look at the respective Top 10 picked in the last 5 drafts. How many of those 50 picks will become franchise changing players? You can look at Towns and go "Maybe, but I doubt it". Embiid is probably the real deal. What about Simmons? Will he ever learn to shoot? What about Tatum? There are several intriguing guys, but chances are not even a handful of them will really matter down the road.

Most of the intriguing young teams did not go down the "Let's just suck for 5 years and try to get lucky" road. They got lucky within the process of just trying to stay afloat.

[/spoiler]

I don't disagree with a lot of that. Whatever path you choose you'll have to have some luck. The reason I'm beyond frustrated currently is we have almost eliminated the possibility of luck- we extended Donovan, we are capped out, we have traded too many picks and the young guys we have are kind of meh. There is a feeling that we've painted ourselves into a corner. Tbh, i just want to see a way to being a true contender and I can't right now.

Yeah, I get that. I've always been able to muster some optimism no matter the situation, but I can't keep doing that anymore. Something needs to happen. It's like we're trying to jump over a hedge and constantly crash right into it, yet we think all we have to do is try again.

[SecondTake]

I’m bored of the players vs coach argument. Let’s just clean house because if we get rid of one and it turns out to not be the problem then we’ve wasted another year.

We have a former MVP averaging 20/10/11 and a top 3 MVP candidate on this team and you want to clean house. How about we get a new coach and a couple of shooters first and see what happens?

Derrick Rose is a former mvp too. How about you do some research on players that rely on athleticism and how their game ages after they hit 30?

Did Russ tear his ACL? Is Derrick Rose averaging 20/10/10?

Not even comparable. Russ is still putting up huge numbers. He's still easily a top 20 player in the NBA, and probably top 15. PG13 is arguably a top 5 player this year, top 10 at worst.

So your answer is to tear it all down and rebuild when you have two top 15 players, an emerging TFerg and Grant, a top 10 center and perhaps the best backup center in the nba?

[SecondTake]

BTW, just a month ago we were the third seed vying for second. We've had a bad stretch, but we've been one of the best teams in the NBA for 2/3rds of the season. Doesn't make sense to blow it up. Difference between 8 seed and third seed this season is minuscule.

[Pillendreher]

We have a former MVP averaging 20/10/11 and a top 3 MVP candidate on this team and you want to clean house. How about we get a new coach and a couple of shooters first and see what happens?

Derrick Rose is a former mvp too. How about you do some research on players that rely on athleticism and how their game ages after they hit 30?

Did Russ tear his ACL? Is Derrick Rose averaging 20/10/10?

Not even comparable. Russ is still putting up huge numbers. He's still easily a top 20 player in the NBA, and probably top 15. PG13 is arguably a top 5 player this year, top 10 at worst.

So your answer is to tear it all down and rebuild when you have two top 15 players, an emerging TFerg and Grant, a top 10 center and perhaps the best backup center in the nba?

This season of Westbrook will go down as one of the worst volume shooting seasons of all time:



And look it, our 2nd iteration of Westbrook is right there with him

[ThunderBolt]

We have a former MVP averaging 20/10/11 and a top 3 MVP candidate on this team and you want to clean house. How about we get a new coach and a couple of shooters first and see what happens?

Derrick Rose is a former mvp too. How about you do some research on players that rely on athleticism and how their game ages after they hit 30?

Did Russ tear his ACL? Is Derrick Rose averaging 20/10/10?

Not even comparable. Russ is still putting up huge numbers. He's still easily a top 20 player in the NBA, and probably top 15. PG13 is arguably a top 5 player this year, top 10 at worst.

So your answer is to tear it all down and rebuild when you have two top 15 players, an emerging TFerg and Grant, a top 10 center and perhaps the best backup center in the nba?

Russ has had 5 knee procedures. He's one of the highest usage players in the nba. He's not the player he was two years ago. That can't be ignored just because okc likes to put out the triple double stat in our face to try to cover over any bad performances.

As for the rest of your post...

[ThunderBolt]

Derrick Rose is a former mvp too. How about you do some research on players that rely on athleticism and how their game ages after they hit 30?

Did Russ tear his ACL? Is Derrick Rose averaging 20/10/10?

Not even comparable. Russ is still putting up huge numbers. He's still easily a top 20 player in the NBA, and probably top 15. PG13 is arguably a top 5 player this year, top 10 at worst.

So your answer is to tear it all down and rebuild when you have two top 15 players, an emerging TFerg and Grant, a top 10 center and perhaps the best backup center in the nba?

This season of Westbrook will go down as one of the worst volume shooting seasons of all time:



And look it, our 2nd iteration of Westbrook is right there with him

That list is very telling. Lots of big names on there but most of whom didn't age particularly well.

[SecondTake]

Derrick Rose is a former mvp too. How about you do some research on players that rely on athleticism and how their game ages after they hit 30?

Did Russ tear his ACL? Is Derrick Rose averaging 20/10/10?

Not even comparable. Russ is still putting up huge numbers. He's still easily a top 20 player in the NBA, and probably top 15. PG13 is arguably a top 5 player this year, top 10 at worst.

So your answer is to tear it all down and rebuild when you have two top 15 players, an emerging TFerg and Grant, a top 10 center and perhaps the best backup center in the nba?

This season of Westbrook will go down as one of the worst volume shooting seasons of all time:



And look it, our 2nd iteration of Westbrook is right there with him

He was never a good shooter. He's dishing out 11 assists, grabbing 10 boards including some massive ORB's over bigs and his shooting has been old-brook like since the all star break. I mean if WB could shoot like Curry he would be the goat. The reason he's slipped to a top 15 player this year is because of his poor shooting.

[SecondTake]

Derrick Rose is a former mvp too. How about you do some research on players that rely on athleticism and how their game ages after they hit 30?

Did Russ tear his ACL? Is Derrick Rose averaging 20/10/10?

Not even comparable. Russ is still putting up huge numbers. He's still easily a top 20 player in the NBA, and probably top 15. PG13 is arguably a top 5 player this year, top 10 at worst.

So your answer is to tear it all down and rebuild when you have two top 15 players, an emerging TFerg and Grant, a top 10 center and perhaps the best backup center in the nba?

Russ has had 5 knee procedures. He's one of the highest usage players in the nba. He's not the player he was two years ago. That can't be ignored just because okc likes to put out the triple double stat in our face to try to cover over any bad performances.

As for the rest of your post...

He would still be the best player on a ton of current NBA playoff teams. PG would also be the best player on most of the current playoff teams. Grant is having a breakout year, Ferg is very good for a second year player. We got Diallo coming in next year. It just seems like if the Thunder should blow it up then so should 70% of the other playoff teams.

[Pillendreher]

Did Russ tear his ACL? Is Derrick Rose averaging 20/10/10?

Not even comparable. Russ is still putting up huge numbers. He's still easily a top 20 player in the NBA, and probably top 15. PG13 is arguably a top 5 player this year, top 10 at worst.

So your answer is to tear it all down and rebuild when you have two top 15 players, an emerging TFerg and Grant, a top 10 center and perhaps the best backup center in the nba?

This season of Westbrook will go down as one of the worst volume shooting seasons of all time:



And look it, our 2nd iteration of Westbrook is right there with him

He was never a good shooter. He's dishing out 11 assists, grabbing 10 boards including some massive ORB's over bigs

I know you have to steer the debate into a different direction because this is not going well for you at all, but let's stay on topic, shall we?

and his shooting has been old-brook like since the all star break.

Meh. Better than before, sure, but it's mostly just due to some variance on his 3s:

I mean if WB could shoot like Curry he would be the goat.

Again: Stay on topic. Nobody is calling for Westbrook to be one of the best shooters of all time. We simply would like for our 200 million dollar man to do one of the most important things to the game of basketball at league average level. He's not even close to that.

If you filter for at least 300 attempts this season, Westbrook is the 2nd worst shooter in the league outside of 10 ft. after Antetokounmpo. That is unacceptable, plain and simple. Add his horrible FT shooting to that and he should be forced to give back his salary for the season.

The reason he's slipped to a top 15 player this year is because of his poor shooting.

Poor shooting is what Westbrook offered last season. This year it's historically bad from everywhere on the court save for at the rim.