The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread

[Schad]

With interest in the MLB declining in general, and fan attendance down across the league, you can quote me on expecting under 10k fans a game. Heck even the home opener is not sold out - when was the last time that happened?

Quoting you.

[phillipmike]

Guys he knows what he is talking about, back off.

[phillipmike]

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[ratul]

Did we not get a sellout on opening day? Even with 2 dollar water bottles?!!

Game one over. Fire Mark Shapiro.

[WuTang_CMB]

Shatkins are lucky there's super buzz around Raps and Leafs with how well both teams are doing (and have been doing for 2-3) solid years now.

If the Leafs and Raps were crap, Shatkins would have been called out long ago.

I give them till the off-season when the media and fans start to turn on them. They've been on a honeymoon for 3 years now.

[Schad]

Let's be real here: there are two largely types of Jays fans, those who only pay attention when the team is good, and those who watch regardless. The former group won't be angry at Shapiro/Atkins because they drifted off as soon as it became apparent that we were rebuilding; most of the latter understands that there's really nothing they could have done to forestall this eventuality. Their jobs are totally safe.

[Fairview4Life]

Some **** goldfish memoried mother **** in here.

[ratul]

Let's be real here: there are two largely types of Jays fans, those who only pay attention when the team is good, and those who watch regardless. The former group won't be angry at Shapiro/Atkins because they drifted off as soon as it became apparent that we were rebuilding; most of the latter understands that there's really nothing they could have done to forestall this eventuality. Their jobs are totally safe.

Remember this comment when they eventually get fired so we can start a proper rebuild. The jays will be good again in and around 2024.

[Schad]

Here's the funny thing: I agree that they screwed up the rebuild. We still have a lot of young talent, but it could have been rather a lot more.

Why did we screw up the rebuild, though? Because the organization was like you: too fixated on attendance. We were making too much money to blow it up when we ought to have done so. It cost us quite a bit of prospect value.

But no, there won't be another rebuild, because there isn't much of anything to rebuild. We are in full teardown mode already; the remaining vets are all on the block, and to the best of our ability, we'll shed them by the end of the year.

[ratul]

Here's the funny thing: I agree that they screwed up the rebuild. We still have a lot of young talent, but it could have been rather a lot more.

Why did we screw up the rebuild, though? Because the organization was like you: too fixated on attendance. We were making too much money to blow it up when we ought to have done so. It cost us quite a bit of prospect value.

But no, there won't be another rebuild, because there isn't much of anything to rebuild. We are in full teardown mode already; the remaining vets are all on the block, and to the best of our ability, we'll shed them by the end of the year.

I have been baseball fan a long time and Shapiro easily has produced one of the most substantive clustereffs of our time.

The fact that he has been able to destroy not one, but two awesome fan bases is effing testament to how clueless Rogers, and perhaps the broader baseball community, is about him. First it was a retool, then it was a rebuild and now its a tear down. Why don’t we just light a match and set it on fire? Because that’s where it’s going.

[Schad]

There is no "awesome fan base" to ruin in Toronto, and if you're a long-time baseball-knower, you'd be familiar with that. The awesome fanbase we once had was ruined through 15 years of cynically trying to keep the team around .500, resulting in attendance for the first five years of quadruple AAAAs tenure being between mediocre and bad, with a one-year uptick in 2013 when Anthopolous made a bunch of splashy moves (that failed miserably).

Yeah, the fans showed up when we were really good. That's because there are a lot of people who don't really care about the Jays in the aggregate, but will go to watch a competitive team. But they'll also leave as soon as the team ceases to be competitive, because their support runs about as deep as your average puddle. It's not Shapiro's fault that AA built a team that had no staying power, and consequently was going to see fan support crater back to pre-2013 levels almost instantly. And the solution is treat attendance as what it is: a lagging indicator for competitiveness. If we build a long-term competitive team, which is what we're aiming at now rather than pretending to be good, then our attendance will be very good, and we might even have a shot at converting some of the bandwagoners into more committed fans.

[ratul]

There is no "awesome fan base" to ruin in Toronto, and if you're a long-time baseball-knower, you'd be familiar with that. The awesome fanbase we once had was ruined through 15 years of cynically trying to keep the team around .500, resulting in attendance for the first five years of quadruple AAAAs tenure being between mediocre and bad, with a one-year uptick in 2013 when Anthopolous made a bunch of splashy moves (that failed miserably).

Yeah, the fans showed up when we were really good. That's because there are a lot of people who don't really care about the Jays in the aggregate, but will go to watch a competitive team. But they'll also leave as soon as the team ceases to be competitive, because their support runs about as deep as your average puddle. It's not Shapiro's fault that AA built a team that had no staying power, and consequently was going to see fan support crater back to pre-2013 levels almost instantly. And the solution is treat attendance as what it is: a lagging indicator for competitiveness. If we build a long-term competitive team, which is what we're aiming at now rather than pretending to be good, then our attendance will be very good, and we might even have a shot at converting some of the bandwagoners into more committed fans.

Um, we were first in attendance just three years ago and now we have to sell two dollar water to get people in the door. Toronto is an epic sports town. Fc, the raps and leafs fans will tell you that. You play well, and fans come. Lather, rinse, repeat. Baseball was the hottest ticket in town.


Sustainability my backside. The job is to win not lose so we can hope to win in some mythical far off time and place.

As for staying power, our hopes rest on double AA ‘s remants. Vladdy Sanchez and stroman and pillar. I’d rather have those cats than the bs we see on the field now. No defense disasters.

[Schad]

Um, we were first in attendance just three years ago and now we have to sell two dollar water to get people in the door. Toronto is an epic sports town. Fc, the raps and leafs fans will tell you that. You play well, and fans come. Lather, rinse, repeat. Baseball was the hottest ticket in town.

Because we were really good. Briefly. And we were built to be good only briefly.

Sustainability my backside. The job is to win not lose so we can hope to win in some mythical far off time and place.

Know what AAAAAAAAAAA did when he came in? He traded off a bunch of veterans and our attendance dropped drastically. Because the only people who believe that you can just will a team to be good in perpetuity have no idea what they are talking about.

As for staying power, our hopes rest on double AA ‘s remants. Vladdy Sanchez and stroman and pillar. I’d rather have those cats than the bs we see on the field now. No defense disasters.

Sanchez, Stroman and Pillar are absolutely not where our hopes rest. Sanchez, Stroman and Pillar are trade bait. Pillar would have been traded months ago if anyone wanted to give us anything of value for him.

[Fenris-77]

I dont get the crazed love for Pillar. His bat has always been a bitnof a noodle, and hes lost a step and is no longer a defensive wunderkind in CF. There's no earthly reason he should be with the team long term.

Stro and Sanchez are both fine, but I'd agree that both guys need to be on the market. The Jays dont need them in the time frame within which they'll be most effective. And the Jays absolutely need guts wgo fit the Vlad/Bo time frame. Its not rocket science.

[vaff87]

I dont get the crazed love for Pillar. His bat has always been a bitnof a noodle, and hes lost a step and is no longer a defensive wunderkind in CF. There's no earthly reason he should be with the team long term.

Stro and Sanchez are both fine, but I'd agree that both guys need to be on the market. The Jays dont need them in the time frame within which they'll be most effective. And the Jays absolutely need guts wgo fit the Vlad/Bo time frame. Its not rocket science.

Quiet. He’s our only “good young player” according to ratul

That tells you all you need to know about ratul.

[ratul]

I dont get the crazed love for Pillar. His bat has always been a bitnof a noodle, and hes lost a step and is no longer a defensive wunderkind in CF. There's no earthly reason he should be with the team long term.

Stro and Sanchez are both fine, but I'd agree that both guys need to be on the market. The Jays dont need them in the time frame within which they'll be most effective. And the Jays absolutely need guts wgo fit the Vlad/Bo time frame. Its not rocket science.

Quiet. He’s our only “good young player” according to ratul

That tells you all you need to know about ratul.

What the eff are you talking about?

[ratul]

Um, we were first in attendance just three years ago and now we have to sell two dollar water to get people in the door. Toronto is an epic sports town. Fc, the raps and leafs fans will tell you that. You play well, and fans come. Lather, rinse, repeat. Baseball was the hottest ticket in town.

Because we were really good. Briefly. And we were built to be good only briefly.

Sustainability my backside. The job is to win not lose so we can hope to win in some mythical far off time and place.

Know what AAAAAAAAAAA did when he came in? He traded off a bunch of veterans and our attendance dropped drastically. Because the only people who believe that you can just will a team to be good in perpetuity have no idea what they are talking about.

As for staying power, our hopes rest on double AA ‘s remants. Vladdy Sanchez and stroman and pillar. I’d rather have those cats than the bs we see on the field now. No defense disasters.

Sanchez, Stroman and Pillar are absolutely not where our hopes rest. Sanchez, Stroman and Pillar are trade bait. Pillar would have been traded months ago if anyone wanted to give us anything of value for him.

10,000 people at the game yesterday. Sorry pal, this is a disaster. Even worse than I expected. Enjoy the rebuild to oblivion with mark shapiro. I will enjoy my boycott of this car crash and watch the raps/leafs.

[Ado05]

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[Brinbe]

I'm actually with Ratul on this... Shatkins are pretty damn terrible. They have completely misread this market and treated fans as if they're star-driven yokels with no clue about baseball. The Colangelos of of the MLB. Again, these problems are things we were talking about years ago. A lot of this territory we've covered many times before. But obviously the teardown came way too late which means we got piss-poor returns on assets, which makes it harder to rebuild, and now they're keeping the likes of Bo/Vlad in the minors. I get the long-term CBA reasons for this, but that's not gonna entice people to come out and watch a less-than-optimum team.

In the end, they tried to half-ass things and what/who on this current 25-man-roster is getting people out to a game? Call the kids up, embrace the rebuild and market the hell out of the young guys. You're not gonna sell out the place, but a vision/direction marketed well goes a long way. I'm convinced of that. And while they may go that way anyway, out of necessity, that doesn't mean failing upward actually makes you competent. Again, like Colangelo. There's a difference between a good tank/rebuild and actually trying and just being inept.

[Fairview4Life]

I'm with Ratul on this... Shatkins are pretty damn terrible. They have completely misread this market. The Colangelos of baseball.

Looking at the team when Shapiro wasn't brought in...how did they "misread the market"? Do you mean that the market would have been happy with moving Donaldson before last season?