Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: #ValleyBoyz rise up

[TASTIC]

Re-sign Holmes, something like 2/$12m but probably takes 3/$25m as someone else will sign him.

Re-sign Oubre, 4/$55m - again, likely will take more - something like 4/$70m...slightly too much.

Sign Pat Bev 2/20m

I like Johnson but buy-out might be better. Unless they can flip him as an expiring but not as attractive I suspect.

Trade Warren, simple as that. We've looked 10x better WITHOUT him on the floor, as much as I like the improved 3pt shot and efficiency. He doesn't defend, he has no upside and he doesn't pass. Loads of teams could use a starting SF - he'd be perfect for Detroit, Portland, New Orleans, Clippers or even WAS assuming they don't re-sign Ariza.

The draft is the tricky part. You get Zion, you're golden. Outside of him and we're in that 'do we go for it or wait one more year' spot.

I'd love Kleber on the cheap, Mirotic is a guy who I love but will be too expensive. Theis is solid but more a 5.

Can Oubre handle starting PF if we don't manage to land Zion?

I'd also chat to Crawford about staying for the vet min in that Haslem role - ie break in case of emergency, but basically an Asst. Coach and locker-room guy, no more 20-25min games 3-4 times a week. The young guys love him and he's a great chemistry guy.

[SunsLyf3]

Paul Milsap has a team option. Depending on how they do I could see Denver declining it and saving 30 million. He still can defend and play stretch 4. So many possible options.

[Saberestar]

Re-sign Holmes, something like 2/$12m but probably takes 3/$25m as someone else will sign him.

Re-sign Oubre, 4/$55m - again, likely will take more - something like 4/$70m...slightly too much.

Sign Pat Bev 2/20m

I like Johnson but buy-out might be better. Unless they can flip him as an expiring but not as attractive I suspect.

Trade Warren, simple as that. We've looked 10x better WITHOUT him on the floor, as much as I like the improved 3pt shot and efficiency. He doesn't defend, he has no upside and he doesn't pass. Loads of teams could use a starting SF - he'd be perfect for Detroit, Portland, New Orleans, Clippers or even WAS assuming they don't re-sign Ariza.

The draft is the tricky part. You get Zion, you're golden. Outside of him and we're in that 'do we go for it or wait one more year' spot.

I'd love Kleber on the cheap, Mirotic is a guy who I love but will be too expensive. Theis is solid but more a 5.

Can Oubre handle starting PF if we don't manage to land Zion?

I'd also chat to Crawford about staying for the vet min in that Haslem role - ie break in case of emergency, but basically an Asst. Coach and locker-room guy, no more 20-25min games 3-4 times a week. The young guys love him and he's a great chemistry guy.

I think that you are too generous with those contracts, I would not sign any of them for that money.

[bwgood77]

Re-sign Holmes, something like 2/$12m but probably takes 3/$25m as someone else will sign him.

Re-sign Oubre, 4/$55m - again, likely will take more - something like 4/$70m...slightly too much.

Sign Pat Bev 2/20m

I like Johnson but buy-out might be better. Unless they can flip him as an expiring but not as attractive I suspect.

Trade Warren, simple as that. We've looked 10x better WITHOUT him on the floor, as much as I like the improved 3pt shot and efficiency. He doesn't defend, he has no upside and he doesn't pass. Loads of teams could use a starting SF - he'd be perfect for Detroit, Portland, New Orleans, Clippers or even WAS assuming they don't re-sign Ariza.

The draft is the tricky part. You get Zion, you're golden. Outside of him and we're in that 'do we go for it or wait one more year' spot.

I'd love Kleber on the cheap, Mirotic is a guy who I love but will be too expensive. Theis is solid but more a 5.

Can Oubre handle starting PF if we don't manage to land Zion?

I'd also chat to Crawford about staying for the vet min in that Haslem role - ie break in case of emergency, but basically an Asst. Coach and locker-room guy, no more 20-25min games 3-4 times a week. The young guys love him and he's a great chemistry guy.

I don't understand the "10X better with Warren off the floor" at all. Most all of our 17 game losing streak was after he went out. We didn't win one game without TJ until Tyler joined on...then without Tyler (and with TJ still out) we only won 1 game...the Pelicans game which we were very lucky to win because of a time out call by Gentry with no timeouts AFTER a 5 second violation with limited minutes from AD and none from Jrue.

Without TJ we've been awful except when Tyler Johnson was able to start at PG, but that was independent of TJ, and I imagine we would have been even better had he been healthy, since we were a lot better before he got injured than during the 17 game losing streak (where Oubre was certainly around).

TJ improved a great deal defensively this year. I think you may be just going off reputation. While a guy like Oubre is more flashy and gets more blocks and steals, TJ is the better team and off ball defender...less of a gambler type.

Him and JJ were 64th and 65th in DRPM while Oubre was 83rd http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/5

He also improved in the passing/assist department but that's never really been his role either. Oubre is similar there though.

I would consider starting Oubre at PF if we can't find one though. At that point, you really could use a guy like TJ off the bench...since your bench would be thin with scoring options.

[bwgood77]

Re-sign Holmes, something like 2/$12m but probably takes 3/$25m as someone else will sign him.

Re-sign Oubre, 4/$55m - again, likely will take more - something like 4/$70m...slightly too much.

Sign Pat Bev 2/20m

I like Johnson but buy-out might be better.

I think that you are too generous with those contracts, I would not sign any of them for that money.

Yeah, 4/70 for a guy like Oubre is insane. I think he's a good guy to have mostly due to his positive energy with the guys, but his play doesn't warrant anything close to that. It's interesting there is a thread on the trade board and his value right now...with all sorts of numbers and ranges thrown out there.

[cberry78]

Re-sign Holmes, something like 2/$12m but probably takes 3/$25m as someone else will sign him.

Re-sign Oubre, 4/$55m - again, likely will take more - something like 4/$70m...slightly too much.

Sign Pat Bev 2/20m

I like Johnson but buy-out might be better. Unless they can flip him as an expiring but not as attractive I suspect.

Trade Warren, simple as that. We've looked 10x better WITHOUT him on the floor, as much as I like the improved 3pt shot and efficiency. He doesn't defend, he has no upside and he doesn't pass. Loads of teams could use a starting SF - he'd be perfect for Detroit, Portland, New Orleans, Clippers or even WAS assuming they don't re-sign Ariza.

The draft is the tricky part. You get Zion, you're golden. Outside of him and we're in that 'do we go for it or wait one more year' spot.

I'd love Kleber on the cheap, Mirotic is a guy who I love but will be too expensive. Theis is solid but more a 5.

Can Oubre handle starting PF if we don't manage to land Zion?

I'd also chat to Crawford about staying for the vet min in that Haslem role - ie break in case of emergency, but basically an Asst. Coach and locker-room guy, no more 20-25min games 3-4 times a week. The young guys love him and he's a great chemistry guy.

I don't understand the "10X better with Warren off the floor" at all. Most all of our 17 game losing streak was after he went out. We didn't win one game without TJ until Tyler joined on...then without Tyler (and with TJ still out) we only won 1 game...the Pelicans game which we were very lucky to win because of a time out call by Gentry with no timeouts AFTER a 5 second violation with limited minutes from AD and none from Jrue.

Without TJ we've been awful except when Tyler Johnson was able to start at PG, but that was independent of TJ, and I imagine we would have been even better had he been healthy, since we were a lot better before he got injured than during the 17 game losing streak (where Oubre was certainly around).

TJ improved a great deal defensively this year. You are just going off reputation. While a guy like Oubre is more flashy and gets more blocks and steals, TJ is the better team and off ball defender...less of a gambler type.

Him and JJ were 64th and 65th in DRPM while Oubre was 83rd http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/5

He also improved in the passing/assist department but that's never really been his role either. Oubre is similar there though.

I would consider starting Oubre at PF if we can't find one though. At that point, you really could use a guy like TJ off the bench...since your bench would be thin with scoring options.

I still say TJ is the only one of our wings that has close to the size needed to play the 4, and with his shooting he's capable of playing a BIG 2 as well. I'm pretty sure we've even used him to cover some of the "smaller" 5's at times over the last couple years. There's so much versatility in TJ's game that he's more than worth his contract value, and it's just plain insanity to pin any of the blame of the last couple of seasons on him.

[Crives]

If we get Lopez maybe we could run

On offense
Lopez plays perimeter 4
Ayton plays 5

On defense
Ayton guards 4
Lopez guards 5

[bwgood77]

If we get Lopez maybe we could run

On offense
Lopez plays perimeter 4
Ayton plays 5

On defense
Ayton guards 4
Lopez guards 5

As long as Ayton gets back for rebounds because Lopez is an awful rebounder.

[Crives]

Would be nice to pick up Williams for vet min this summer.

Read on Twitter

?s=21

[lilfishi22]

Ummm I think Westbrook just logged the 2nd 20/20/20 game in NBA history

Fact check me

Yes he did. Funny because i remember when there was talk on here about trying to go after Westbrook when he hit FA (Probably initiated by me), and soooooooooo many people were giving that typical "He isnt a winner" and even "Those are empty stats" lines that they now are getting pissed off that Booker is getting.

Hell, for the past 2 seasons poster have been brushing off him averaging a triple double as, he's not that good, just selfish and his teammates suck and allow him to grab the rebounds away from them.

Fact is Westbrook is a top 5 player in this league and always has been.

I know a lot of people are not fans. I kind of like him, but the fact remains if he shot less they 'd be better. I remember an earlier game I mentioned where he had a ton of assists and boards, but not a lot of shots and they won by a huge amount.

If he simply took fewer shots, and let his more efficient teammates take more shots, they'd probably be a lot better as a team. He currently has under a 50% TS% and was 8-23 last night and 2-9 from 3, shooting 24.8% overall and 22.2% from 3.

I have mentioned in the past that Jackson reminds me of a SF Westbrook without the points and boards though. Nonetheless, the 20/20 with assists/boards is impressive.

Production wise, Wesbtook has always been a top 5-10 guy in the league but it's tough to say his style can win. He shoots way too much for being a poor shooter and while he's good at dropping dimes and grabbing boards, he's never allowed another team mate to overshadow him basically until now when he's a little older and probably figured out (in that 2017 season) that he can't do it alone and does need help. For the longest time, he's had another super star in KD to play with and even then there were a ton of questions about their clashing styles.

If he was less of a ball dominant guy and actually deferred more often to truly efficient scorers like KD then and PG now, the Thunder probably would be a dynasty right now. But when I say he's selfish, I actually mean that he continues to take a ridiculous number of shots when there's clearly better players around him that should be taking more of it. That's where his selfish reputation comes from.

In the 4 seasons the Thunder got to the WCF (3x) or Finals (1x), Westbrook was Thunder's leader in USG% and FGA per100. KD, despite being more efficient, being the better scorer was never the leader. I can't be bothered going further into every Thunder playoff season but I'd hazard a guess that Westbrook was likely the leader in both adv stats despite never coming close to KD in efficiency

Until Westbrook figures out that he's not the star scorer but an ultra elite 2nd option offensively, I don't think he's going to win a title.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I think most of Westbrooks faults as a player are caused by how he's wired from a personality standpoint but I also think if he wasn't wired that way he's not as good as he is either. Obviously he should try to refine and grow as a person and kind of has as he's got older but as they say a tiger can't change his stripes.

Could kind of say the same with a guy like Kobe. If he's wasn't an untra competitive dick head maybe him and Shaq coexist and they win like 4 more rings but that same dick headness helped make him good.

Or if Draymond Green controlled his emotions better the warriors probably have one more ring but if he's not playing on the edge emotionally he's probably not the same player in his career.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

[bwgood77]

I think most of Westbrooks faults as a player are caused by how he's wired from a personality standpoint but I also think if he wasn't wired that way he's not as good as he is either. Obviously he should try to refine and grow as a person and kind of has as he's got older but as they say a tiger can't change his stripes.

Could kind of say the same with a guy like Kobe. If he's wasn't an untra competitive dick head maybe him and Shaq coexist and they win like 4 more rings but that same dick headness helped make him good.

Or if Draymond Green controlled his emotions better the warriors probably have one more ring but if he's not playing on the edge emotionally he's probably not the same player in his career.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

I remember an old piece by Bill Simmons about him talking about accepting the 10% bad because of the 90% good. I think a lot of it is the pure energy and intensity he plays with. It just raises the level of play of his teammates....and he never gives up. I think that's a bit of what Oubre, and actually moreso, maybe Tyler Johnson bring to the team....when you have a couple of guys like that among the rest of our players who just got to the point where they gave up when they got down, at least after TJ got injured, then it finally got them playing well when Tyler got here, played hard, and add that to Oubre's energy and it kind of helped the whole team step up. Westbrook seems to do that.

[suns12345]

Re-sign Holmes, something like 2/$12m but probably takes 3/$25m as someone else will sign him.

Re-sign Oubre, 4/$55m - again, likely will take more - something like 4/$70m...slightly too much.

Sign Pat Bev 2/20m

I like Johnson but buy-out might be better. Unless they can flip him as an expiring but not as attractive I suspect.

Trade Warren, simple as that. We've looked 10x better WITHOUT him on the floor, as much as I like the improved 3pt shot and efficiency. He doesn't defend, he has no upside and he doesn't pass. Loads of teams could use a starting SF - he'd be perfect for Detroit, Portland, New Orleans, Clippers or even WAS assuming they don't re-sign Ariza.

The draft is the tricky part. You get Zion, you're golden. Outside of him and we're in that 'do we go for it or wait one more year' spot.

I'd love Kleber on the cheap, Mirotic is a guy who I love but will be too expensive. Theis is solid but more a 5.

Can Oubre handle starting PF if we don't manage to land Zion?

I'd also chat to Crawford about staying for the vet min in that Haslem role - ie break in case of emergency, but basically an Asst. Coach and locker-room guy, no more 20-25min games 3-4 times a week. The young guys love him and he's a great chemistry guy.

I don't understand the "10X better with Warren off the floor" at all. Most all of our 17 game losing streak was after he went out. We didn't win one game without TJ until Tyler joined on...then without Tyler (and with TJ still out) we only won 1 game...the Pelicans game which we were very lucky to win because of a time out call by Gentry with no timeouts AFTER a 5 second violation with limited minutes from AD and none from Jrue.

Without TJ we've been awful except when Tyler Johnson was able to start at PG, but that was independent of TJ, and I imagine we would have been even better had he been healthy, since we were a lot better before he got injured than during the 17 game losing streak (where Oubre was certainly around).

TJ improved a great deal defensively this year. You are just going off reputation. While a guy like Oubre is more flashy and gets more blocks and steals, TJ is the better team and off ball defender...less of a gambler type.

Him and JJ were 64th and 65th in DRPM while Oubre was 83rd http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/5

He also improved in the passing/assist department but that's never really been his role either. Oubre is similar there though.

I would consider starting Oubre at PF if we can't find one though. At that point, you really could use a guy like TJ off the bench...since your bench would be thin with scoring options.

I still say TJ is the only one of our wings that has close to the size needed to play the 4, and with his shooting he's capable of playing a BIG 2 as well. I'm pretty sure we've even used him to cover some of the "smaller" 5's at times over the last couple years. There's so much versatility in TJ's game that he's more than worth his contract value, and it's just plain insanity to pin any of the blame of the last couple of seasons on him.

All this "trade TJ/dont trade TJ" talk is frustrating to me (and I agree with what you have said above)

I think you'd be silly not to see the value TJ has relative to his contract, as a shooter, as a scorer, as a versatile wing.

That being said, the fact he is valuable means he is the best piece we have to trade and fill other holes on the roster given the number of other wings we have. If we trade our low value guys (Jackson, bender), there is a 99% chance we get low value back - that's just how it works.

Bottom line in my view, trade TJ if there is a package that makes us better. Keep him if there isn't and find him minutes as he is a positive player. Trading him isn't a question of his value, his value is the reason you would consider trading him.

Too many people on here imo are confusing wanting to trade him with that meaning he is a bad player, or are justifying trading him in their minds by saying he is bad and is the reason we are losing. This isn't 2K, you cant just trade your junk players with no value for all stars.

[DroughtsOverPHX]

Play around a bit with http://www.tankathon.com/ and adjust your expectations. I keep getting 5th and 6th picks...

I did tankathon and the realgm simulators. It's a massive reality check. I ran them both about 10 times before I saw us get Zion. Ja is unlikely too. Here we are again at BPA or a trade. OR...is this our year?

[bwgood77]

I don't understand the "10X better with Warren off the floor" at all. Most all of our 17 game losing streak was after he went out. We didn't win one game without TJ until Tyler joined on...then without Tyler (and with TJ still out) we only won 1 game...the Pelicans game which we were very lucky to win because of a time out call by Gentry with no timeouts AFTER a 5 second violation with limited minutes from AD and none from Jrue.

Without TJ we've been awful except when Tyler Johnson was able to start at PG, but that was independent of TJ, and I imagine we would have been even better had he been healthy, since we were a lot better before he got injured than during the 17 game losing streak (where Oubre was certainly around).

TJ improved a great deal defensively this year. You are just going off reputation. While a guy like Oubre is more flashy and gets more blocks and steals, TJ is the better team and off ball defender...less of a gambler type.

Him and JJ were 64th and 65th in DRPM while Oubre was 83rd http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/5

He also improved in the passing/assist department but that's never really been his role either. Oubre is similar there though.

I would consider starting Oubre at PF if we can't find one though. At that point, you really could use a guy like TJ off the bench...since your bench would be thin with scoring options.

I still say TJ is the only one of our wings that has close to the size needed to play the 4, and with his shooting he's capable of playing a BIG 2 as well. I'm pretty sure we've even used him to cover some of the "smaller" 5's at times over the last couple years. There's so much versatility in TJ's game that he's more than worth his contract value, and it's just plain insanity to pin any of the blame of the last couple of seasons on him.

All this "trade TJ/dont trade TJ" talk is frustrating to me (and I agree with what you have said above)

I think you'd be silly not to see the value TJ has relative to his contract, as a shooter, as a scorer, as a versatile wing.

That being said, the fact he is valuable means he is the best piece we have to trade and fill other holes on the roster given the number of other wings we have. If we trade our low value guys (Jackson, bender), there is a 99% chance we get low value back - that's just how it works.

Bottom line in my view, trade TJ if there is a package that makes us better. Keep him if there isn't and find him minutes as he is a positive player. Trading him isn't a question of his value, his value is the reason you would consider trading him.

Too many people on here imo are confusing wanting to trade him with that meaning he is a bad player, or are justifying trading him in their minds by saying he is bad and is the reason we are losing. This isn't 2K, you cant just trade your junk players with no value for all stars.

I agree with this and have always say you trade anyone if you think the value is there and it makes you better. But my response was purely responding to a post saying we play better without him which has very obviously not been the case, except for perhaps a brief stint with Tyler Johnson who TJ never played with.

However, I have seen a lot of proposed TJ trades that would not make us better...ones for junk. I'd definitely move him if he was the difference in like a Jrue or Conley trade...or a PF like Siakam, or maybe even Aaron Gordon, but many of the trades I see I don't like...I saw people talking about trading him for Patty Mills on twitter. I think I've seen people trade him just for cap space...basically give away the contract for cap space. I don't agree with any of that. We have lacked having many NBA quality players, so I just don't want to rid of him for nothing and agree with the "trade him for whatever". So yes, trade him if it upgrades us somewhere...or anyone for that matter.

[Frank Lee]

We get 1-2-3 in this draft, we can ad Zion, Morant, or Clarke

That’s a good start to the off season. The rest falls into place accordingly.

Me thinks y’all thinks too much

[Crives]

Play around a bit with http://www.tankathon.com/ and adjust your expectations. I keep getting 5th and 6th picks...

I did tankathon and the realgm simulators. It's a massive reality check. I ran them both about 10 times before I saw us get Zion. Ja is unlikely too. Here we are again at BPA or a trade. OR...is this our year?

Clarke!!

[BobbieL]

We get 1-2-3 in this draft, we can ad Zion, Morant, or Clarke

That’s a good start to the off season. The rest falls into place accordingly.

Me thinks y’all thinks too much

Zion - yes
Morant - leverage this pick in a trade as team needs a veteran PG in my opinion
Clarke - yes

[DroughtsOverPHX]

Play around a bit with http://www.tankathon.com/ and adjust your expectations. I keep getting 5th and 6th picks...

I did tankathon and the realgm simulators. It's a massive reality check. I ran them both about 10 times before I saw us get Zion. Ja is unlikely too. Here we are again at BPA or a trade. OR...is this our year?

Clarke!!

His highlight reels are impressive and he's the kind of PF I wish we had. Some of his low post moves are Zionish. I've seen several mocks that have him late first which makes me wonder how low of a pick we should spend on him.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I think most of Westbrooks faults as a player are caused by how he's wired from a personality standpoint but I also think if he wasn't wired that way he's not as good as he is either. Obviously he should try to refine and grow as a person and kind of has as he's got older but as they say a tiger can't change his stripes.

Could kind of say the same with a guy like Kobe. If he's wasn't an untra competitive dick head maybe him and Shaq coexist and they win like 4 more rings but that same dick headness helped make him good.

Or if Draymond Green controlled his emotions better the warriors probably have one more ring but if he's not playing on the edge emotionally he's probably not the same player in his career.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

I remember an old piece by Bill Simmons about him talking about accepting the 10% bad because of the 90% good. I think a lot of it is the pure energy and intensity he plays with. It just raises the level of play of his teammates....and he never gives up. I think that's a bit of what Oubre, and actually moreso, maybe Tyler Johnson bring to the team....when you have a couple of guys like that among the rest of our players who just got to the point where they gave up when they got down, at least after TJ got injured, then it finally got them playing well when Tyler got here, played hard, and add that to Oubre's energy and it kind of helped the whole team step up. Westbrook seems to do that.

Absolutely. I think Oubre brought confidence and fun energy to a franchise that's been pretty beaten down of late. Johnson brings toughness and work ethic which are good traits to have around young guys. They both brought some intangibles this team was lacking.

It's not much different than a normal workplace where you want to have a fun energetic dude to get you through the dog days and a grinder that makes you see hustling and makes you feel like you need to work a little harder.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app