The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread

[Fairview4Life]

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Lowest since 2010 I believe. When quad AAAAAA was GM and in the process of tearing down and rebuilding. Weird how that worked. Jose and EE were good enough for long enough to allow AA two kicks at the can to build a short term winner and he was able to eventually build the best team in baseball after half a decade, which brought back the fans. But they were all old, and the process of building that team (twice) emptied out our advanced prospects.

[Brinbe]

I'm with Ratul on this... Shatkins are pretty damn terrible. They have completely misread this market. The Colangelos of baseball.

Looking at the team when Shapiro wasn't brought in...how did they "misread the market"? Do you mean that the market would have been happy with moving Donaldson before last season?

They absolutely did. They tried to push for the playoffs when that was the opposite of what they should've been doing. Treadmill approaches don't work anywhere, especially here. And why would any reasonably intelligent Jays fan waste money going to a game right now when they know Vlad/Bo are the actual future and still waiting for a call-up.

They're just bad and the people caping for them reminds me 100000% of the Colangelo era. I really don't get it.

[Fairview4Life]

I'm with Ratul on this... Shatkins are pretty damn terrible. They have completely misread this market. The Colangelos of baseball.

Looking at the team when Shapiro wasn't brought in...how did they "misread the market"? Do you mean that the market would have been happy with moving Donaldson before last season?

They absolutely did. They tried to push for the playoffs when that was the opposite of what they should've been doing. Treadmill approaches don't work anywhere, especially here.

They're just bad and the people caping for them reminds me 100000% of the Colangelo era. I really don't get it. :noway:

So delaying the rebuild for a season makes them Colangelo? I'm also not sure how that was misreading the Toronto market. The market doesn't really support rebuilding, beyond a consistent 10-20k.

I'm not caping for Shatkins, but I understand what they are doing and why we are currently in this position. There's a difference.

[Brinbe]

Looking at the team when Shapiro wasn't brought in...how did they "misread the market"? Do you mean that the market would have been happy with moving Donaldson before last season?

They absolutely did. They tried to push for the playoffs when that was the opposite of what they should've been doing. Treadmill approaches don't work anywhere, especially here.

They're just bad and the people caping for them reminds me 100000% of the Colangelo era. I really don't get it.

So delaying the rebuild for a season makes them Colangelo? I'm also how that was misreading the Toronto market. The market doesn't really support rebuilding, beyond a consistent 10-20k.

Two seasons! And it does, if you market it correctly. They won't draw 40K but they'd get more than this pithy amount.

Like I said, half-assed no-vision approaches don't work. Jays fans don't support terrible front offices, yes. That's quite clear.

[Fairview4Life]

They absolutely did. They tried to push for the playoffs when that was the opposite of what they should've been doing. Treadmill approaches don't work anywhere, especially here.

They're just bad and the people caping for them reminds me 100000% of the Colangelo era. I really don't get it. :noway:

So delaying the rebuild for a season makes them Colangelo? I'm also how that was misreading the Toronto market. The market doesn't really support rebuilding, beyond a consistent 10-20k.

Two seasons! And it does, if you market it correctly. They won't draw 40K but they'd get more than this pithy amount.

Like I said, half-assed no-vision approaches don't work. Jays fans don't support terrible front offices, yes. That's quite clear. :noway:

So the rebuild should have started before or during the 2017 season and not halfway through 2018 like it did? That's 1-1.5 seasons. Not 2. Regardless, the fans didn't support AA's rebuild by coming to the ballpark to watch Fred Lewis. The fans don't support the actual painful part of rebuilding, which is trading good older players for prospects. They don't come out to watch prospects unless they win, or, as we will probably see in a few weeks, they are a Guerrero.

[Brinbe]

So delaying the rebuild for a season makes them Colangelo? I'm also how that was misreading the Toronto market. The market doesn't really support rebuilding, beyond a consistent 10-20k.

Two seasons! And it does, if you market it correctly. They won't draw 40K but they'd get more than this pithy amount.

Like I said, half-assed no-vision approaches don't work. Jays fans don't support terrible front offices, yes. That's quite clear.

So the rebuild should have started before or during the 2017 season and not halfway through 2018 like it did? That's 1-1.5 seasons. Not 2. Regardless, the fans didn't support AA's rebuild by coming to the ballpark to watch Fred Lewis. The fans don't support the actual painful part of rebuilding, which is trading good older players for prospects. They don't come out to watch prospects unless they win, or, as we will probably see in a few weeks, they are a Guerrero.

Yes? Even that 1.5 years makes a difference in a rebuild!
And that's where we disagree entirely. You're thinking like Shatkins, which is exactly the problem. This is a market that can endure rebuilding, if you don't treat them like braid-dead dopes. Go young from the start and market the hell out of the young guys. Thinking otherwise is what leads to eating millions in dead money with nothing to show for it with a crappy non-hitting team without its best prospects on the roster.

[vaff87]

I'd give Shatkins a 'B' so far. The only mistake being waiting a year too long to start rebuilding, which seems like it may have been a touchy situation that may not have even been in their control.

Outside of that, they've done really well:

- they got an extra playoff year out of AA's aging core
- they refrained from giving out large contracts to over-the-hill fan favourites
- they've gradually added to our talent base through trades
- they've drafted really well
- they've heavily prioritized IFA
- they're building a state-of-the-art spring training complex that should do nothing but help us going forward

[Fairview4Life]

Two seasons! And it does, if you market it correctly. They won't draw 40K but they'd get more than this pithy amount.

Like I said, half-assed no-vision approaches don't work. Jays fans don't support terrible front offices, yes. That's quite clear. :noway:

So the rebuild should have started before or during the 2017 season and not halfway through 2018 like it did? That's 1-1.5 seasons. Not 2. Regardless, the fans didn't support AA's rebuild by coming to the ballpark to watch Fred Lewis. The fans don't support the actual painful part of rebuilding, which is trading good older players for prospects. They don't come out to watch prospects unless they win, or, as we will probably see in a few weeks, they are a Guerrero.

Yes? Even that 1.5 years makes a difference in a rebuild!
And that's where we disagree entirely. You're thinking like Shatkins, which is exactly the problem. This is a market that can endure rebuilding, if you don't treat them like braid-dead dopes. Go young, market the young guys. Thinking otherwise is what leads to eating millions in dead money with nothing to show for it with a crappy non-hitting team without its best prospects on the roster.

The market has repeatedly shown it will not come out to watch rebuilding, beyond a consistent 10-20k fans. No matter who is doing it. The idea that Jays fans would have supported tearing down the 2016 team that winter is hilarious. That was a championship level team. Thinking they were going to tear that down and market "the young guys" is just nuts. There were no young guys to market, first of all. You'd have to trade old and beloved players from the best Jays team in a quarter century for lottery pick prospects and then your plan was to "market" those guys? They'd have to be major league ready, and available for our old guys, and they'd have to pan out and they'd, again, be replacing Jose Bautista and Josh Donaldson, and you think the fans would accept that marketing and still show up? Sorry, but they would not. There is no marketing plan that sees a winter of 2016/17 teardown ending without Shapiro's head on a pike outside the Rogers Centre next to ol Ted as a warning to future GM's.

Part of rebuilding is moving on from old players, but there wasn't much in the pipeline close to the majors to replace them. This year there are actually interesting prospects, including the best prospect in baseball, who is only a few weeks away. And, I have some news, they are absolutely marketing him and will be marketing the **** out of him for the rest of the season once he comes up.

Basically, they waited a half year too long. And that was really just not moving Donaldson last winter when they had a shot, followed by him getting hurt for most of the season which tanked his in season value.

[Schad]

They should have pulled the plug earlier. Fans also would have deserted the club immediately.

[ratul]

I'd give Shatkins a 'B' so far. The only mistake being waiting a year too long to start rebuilding, which seems like it may have been a touchy situation that may not have even been in their control.

Outside of that, they've done really well:

- they got an extra playoff year out of AA's aging core
- they refrained from giving out large contracts to over-the-hill fan favourites
- they've gradually added to our talent base through trades
- they've drafted really well
- they've heavily prioritized IFA
- they're building a state-of-the-art spring training complex that should do nothing but help us going forward

Weak take.

[ratul]

I can’t wait until shopify buys the Rogers centre for deferred stock. This **** show is deserved for a cable company that gouges the ppopulace every month

[C Court]

I'd give Shatkins a 'B' so far. The only mistake being waiting a year too long to start rebuilding, which seems like it may have been a touchy situation that may not have even been in their control.

Outside of that, they've done really well:

- they got an extra playoff year out of AA's aging core
- they refrained from giving out large contracts to over-the-hill fan favourites
- they've gradually added to our talent base through trades
- they've drafted really well
- they've heavily prioritized IFA
- they're building a state-of-the-art spring training complex that should do nothing but help us going forward

Solid take.

[SharoneWright]

Two seasons! And it does, if you market it correctly. They won't draw 40K but they'd get more than this pithy amount.

Like I said, half-assed no-vision approaches don't work. Jays fans don't support terrible front offices, yes. That's quite clear.

So the rebuild should have started before or during the 2017 season and not halfway through 2018 like it did? That's 1-1.5 seasons. Not 2. Regardless, the fans didn't support AA's rebuild by coming to the ballpark to watch Fred Lewis. The fans don't support the actual painful part of rebuilding, which is trading good older players for prospects. They don't come out to watch prospects unless they win, or, as we will probably see in a few weeks, they are a Guerrero.

Yes? Even that 1.5 years makes a difference in a rebuild!
And that's where we disagree entirely. You're thinking like Shatkins, which is exactly the problem. This is a market that can endure rebuilding, if you don't treat them like braid-dead dopes. Go young from the start and market the hell out of the young guys. Thinking otherwise is what leads to eating millions in dead money with nothing to show for it with a crappy non-hitting team without its best prospects on the roster.

QFT.

Those 1.5 years compound. Donaldson, Martin, Tulo, Pillar, Smoak, etc., were already depreciating assets going into 2018, the JD injury notwithstanding. The rebuild would have been accelerated substantially not only by starting sooner, but acquiring better young talent in trades when all our vets had more value. I forget which young pitcher was reported to be offered for JD (Flaherty??), but he'd be super valuable at the front of our rotation sooner than later. It's not like we delayed getting Flaherty by 1.5 years... We don't get Flaherty ever.

[Schad]

In 2020? Increasingly, I doubt it, given the moves we have made and pursued.

What Rogers is concerned about, primarily, is losing money, and there are two ways to go about avoiding that: increase revenues, or decrease costs. Boosting the payroll back to 2018 levels to try to compete and failing to actually end up good is how one loses money hand over fist, and we simply don't have the players or the resources to snap our fingers and be good next season. The attendance boost from hunting .500 is nowhere near enough to offset the increased costs. I'd expect us to go the opposite direction, honestly: moving the Stromans and Sanchez and Gileses and Smoaks this year, performance allowing, add back a bit in the winter but maintain a low payroll...even lower than this year.

I will never underestimate how moronic Rogers can be, so it's entirely possible that they believe that we can suddenly compete in 2020 and get the fans back in droves, but I'm fairly confident that Shapiro knows how unlikely to succeed that plan would be.

[SharoneWright]

I think I was unclear. We aren't competing in 2020. Or 2021.
My threshold for expecting to compete is very high. Something like 87 wins. To me, acquiring a high end asset like Flaherty might put us in that category in say 3 years/2022, assuming everything else goes perfectly. Yes, he helps us win now, but you need many star players to compete in the East. And to me, 2022 is sooner than later, after witnessing teams (including ours) go through periods of non-competitiveness lasting decades. As it stands, we'll need to do much more than rely on Vlad and Bo to make us a threat by 2022. (As everyone knows) ditching our vets sooner would have helped our chances. C'est la vie.

[Schad]

Sorry, wasn't aiming that in your direction; the post I was replying to disappeared.

[ratul]

We have almost been no-hit twice in 8 games. What a disgrace of a front-ofice

[johanliebert]

I'm actually with Ratul on this... Shatkins are pretty damn terrible.They have completely misread this market and treated fans as if they're star-driven yokels with no clue about baseball. The Colangelos of of the MLB. Again, these problems are things we were talking about years ago. A lot of this territory we've covered many times before. But obviously the teardown came way too late which means we got piss-poor returns on assets, which makes it harder to rebuild, and now they're keeping the likes of Bo/Vlad in the minors. I get the long-term CBA reasons for this, but that's not gonna entice people to come out and watch a less-than-optimum team.

In the end, they tried to half-ass things and what/who on this current 25-man-roster is getting people out to a game? Call the kids up, embrace the rebuild and market the hell out of the young guys. You're not gonna sell out the place, but a vision/direction marketed well goes a long way. I'm convinced of that. And while they may go that way anyway, out of necessity, that doesn't mean failing upward actually makes you competent. Again, like Colangelo. There's a difference between a good tank/rebuild and actually trying and just being inept.

Didnt Colangelo in 2 seasons turn the raptors franchise around? then draft derozan in the loterry and acquired lowry? Colangelo's core is a big reason the raptors have been contenders since 2013. There was only so much he could do to build around bosh as history has shown fa's dont come to toronto...so he went and found low risk/high reward players like lowry/amir johnson/derozan and built a solid team.

I agree with the bolded tho.

[Brinbe]

I'm actually with Ratul on this... Shatkins are pretty damn terrible.They have completely misread this market and treated fans as if they're star-driven yokels with no clue about baseball. The Colangelos of of the MLB. Again, these problems are things we were talking about years ago. A lot of this territory we've covered many times before. But obviously the teardown came way too late which means we got piss-poor returns on assets, which makes it harder to rebuild, and now they're keeping the likes of Bo/Vlad in the minors. I get the long-term CBA reasons for this, but that's not gonna entice people to come out and watch a less-than-optimum team.

In the end, they tried to half-ass things and what/who on this current 25-man-roster is getting people out to a game? Call the kids up, embrace the rebuild and market the hell out of the young guys. You're not gonna sell out the place, but a vision/direction marketed well goes a long way. I'm convinced of that. And while they may go that way anyway, out of necessity, that doesn't mean failing upward actually makes you competent. Again, like Colangelo. There's a difference between a good tank/rebuild and actually trying and just being inept.

Didnt Colangelo in 2 seasons turn the raptors franchise around? then draft derozan in the loterry and acquired lowry? Colangelo's core is a big reason the raptors have been contenders since 2013. There was only so much he could do to build around bosh as history has shown fa's dont come to toronto...so he went and found low risk/high reward players like lowry/amir johnson/derozan and built a solid team.

I agree with the bolded tho.

This isn't really the board for this, but Colangelo did some good initially sure, I'll give him that credit. But he can only ultimately be judged on his record and it was abysmal. I have no confidence at all he would've succeeded the way Masai has or been able to turn JV/DeMar/Yak into Kawhi/DannyG/Gasol or draft the likes of Pascal. And I've devoted way too many words to BC's failings over the last decade to retread that territory lol. I think it's just with BC and Shatkins, I don't think people should be credited for failing upwards, in other words, trying/failing and trying to sell that as a rebuild or tanking. That's just being bad at managing a team and that's how I see them right now.

Anyway, sorry for the derail. I'd be happy to ultimately be wrong and enjoy a championship-worthy baseball team to root for in a few years, but I just don't have any belief in them to deliver it. I know lots of posters I respect on here disagree with me, and that's totally fine. That's the point and fun of a message board.

[Schad]

This isn't really the board for this, but Colangelo did some good initially sure, I'll give him that credit. But he can only ultimately be judged on his record and it was abysmal. I have no confidence at all he would've succeeded the way Masai has or been able to turn JV/DeMar/Yak into Kawhi/DannyG/Gasol or draft the likes of Pascal. And I've devoted way too many words to BC's failings over the last decade to retread that territory lol. I think it's just with BC and Shatkins, I don't think people should be credited for failing upwards, in other words, trying/failing and trying to sell that as a rebuild or tanking. That's just being bad at managing a team and that's how I see them right now.

Anyway, sorry for the derail. I'd be happy to ultimately be wrong and enjoy a championship-worthy baseball team to root for in a few years, but I just don't have any belief in them to deliver it. I know lots of posters I respect on here disagree with me, and that's totally fine. That's the point and fun of a message board.

Think a lot of us agree with regard to the timing of the teardown, it's just a matter of where blame gets assigned. It's quite likely that both Colangelo and Shapiro felt pressure to keep the team competitive such that they couldn't outright blow it up; the difference, for me, is that Shapiro didn't double down. We didn't continue shipping out significant prospects to chase the Wild Card...he basically made moves around the margins while being careful not to shift future assets or take on major long-term money.

Letting the team wither on the vine set us back in a big way, but our position is still recoverable...our farm system isn't as good as it ought to be, and it'll take some inspired moves to flesh out the core, but there's real talent there. Colangelo would have churned out a couple more .500 seasons at the cost of half the system.