Cameron Reddish

[Stillwater]

Yeah he's a big switch defender who needs to be spoon feed spot up threes his rookie year. And he will probably hit those threes between 27-34%

not worthy of a lottery pick with no other value besides length to eventually become a good defender which by all accounts he is the opposite of. Look at the stats, he sucks.

A potential 40% 3 point shooter who plays great D has value. A potential Robert Covington like player in most systems with better athletic ability is highly valued. But like I said, Hunter has more value to me right now on average but...

For Atlanta his value is a he can be 35-40% as a rookie in our system off of 7-8 3s a game volume with the good defense to boot and can PnR playmake as well in our system. That's tremendous value. In other words, like Bol Bol, he is a system fit. Reddish fits our system. For others, they might see Bol as a great fit, for us he isn't. He is a below average fit with bust potential

I hope for your sake if atl picks him he becomes what you think.
I don't see it anytime in the next 2 years.
He's not a good defender and his catch and shoot ability is overrated by alot.
So I'm not seeing it at all.
System fit or not I'd take several others before him that are proven

[King Ken]

not worthy of a lottery pick with no other value besides length to eventually become a good defender which by all accounts he is the opposite of. Look at the stats, he sucks.

A potential 40% 3 point shooter who plays great D has value. A potential Robert Covington like player in most systems with better athletic ability is highly valued. But like I said, Hunter has more value to me right now on average but...

For Atlanta his value is a he can be 35-40% as a rookie in our system off of 7-8 3s a game volume with the good defense to boot and can PnR playmake as well in our system. That's tremendous value. In other words, like Bol Bol, he is a system fit. Reddish fits our system. For others, they might see Bol as a great fit, for us he isn't. He is a below average fit with bust potential

I think the Cam Reddish you described is prime Cam Reddish not rookie Cam Reddish.

Cam can give us that next year. He has the Marcus Thornton thing going where he will shoot it his college data says it as well at least till before Zion was out with the shoe injury.

As for 40% on average, that's clearly prime Reddish in my eyes.

[King Ken]

not worthy of a lottery pick with no other value besides length to eventually become a good defender which by all accounts he is the opposite of. Look at the stats, he sucks.

A potential 40% 3 point shooter who plays great D has value. A potential Robert Covington like player in most systems with better athletic ability is highly valued. But like I said, Hunter has more value to me right now on average but...

For Atlanta his value is a he can be 35-40% as a rookie in our system off of 7-8 3s a game volume with the good defense to boot and can PnR playmake as well in our system. That's tremendous value. In other words, like Bol Bol, he is a system fit. Reddish fits our system. For others, they might see Bol as a great fit, for us he isn't. He is a below average fit with bust potential

I hope for your sake if atl picks him he becomes what you think.
I don't see it anytime in the next 2 years.
He's not a good defender and his catch and shoot ability is overrated by alot.
So I'm not seeing it at all.
System fit or not I'd take several others before him that are proven

I hope he does.

What makes you think he is not good defender?

[Stillwater]

A potential 40% 3 point shooter who plays great D has value. A potential Robert Covington like player in most systems with better athletic ability is highly valued. But like I said, Hunter has more value to me right now on average but...

For Atlanta his value is a he can be 35-40% as a rookie in our system off of 7-8 3s a game volume with the good defense to boot and can PnR playmake as well in our system. That's tremendous value. In other words, like Bol Bol, he is a system fit. Reddish fits our system. For others, they might see Bol as a great fit, for us he isn't. He is a below average fit with bust potential

I hope for your sake if atl picks him he becomes what you think.
I don't see it anytime in the next 2 years.
He's not a good defender and his catch and shoot ability is overrated by alot.
So I'm not seeing it at all.
System fit or not I'd take several others before him that are proven

I hope he does.

What makes you think he is not good defender?

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
1. Tariq Owens Texas Tech 10.1
2. Brandon Clarke Gonzaga 9.8
3. Matisse Thybulle Washington 9.8
4. Kevarrius Hayes Florida 9.2
5. Kenny Wooten Oregon 9.1
6. Xavier Tillman Michigan State 8.9
7. Ethan Happ Wisconsin 8.9
8. Paschal Chukwu Syracuse 8.7
9. Jon Teske Michigan 8.4
10. Elijah Thomas Clemson 8.3
Cameron Reddish 2.7
He was 9th out of 14 players on his own roster
and way way down the list among all div 1 players

[King Ken]

I hope for your sake if atl picks him he becomes what you think.
I don't see it anytime in the next 2 years.
He's not a good defender and his catch and shoot ability is overrated by alot.
So I'm not seeing it at all.
System fit or not I'd take several others before him that are proven

I hope he does.

What makes you think he is not good defender?

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
1. Tariq Owens Texas Tech 10.1
2. Brandon Clarke Gonzaga 9.8
3. Matisse Thybulle Washington 9.8
4. Kevarrius Hayes Florida 9.2
5. Kenny Wooten Oregon 9.1
6. Xavier Tillman Michigan State 8.9
7. Ethan Happ Wisconsin 8.9
8. Paschal Chukwu Syracuse 8.7
9. Jon Teske Michigan 8.4
10. Elijah Thomas Clemson 8.3
Cameron Reddish 2.7
He was 9th out of 14 players on his own roster
and way way down the list among all div 1 players

I thought you was going to offer analysis. This is pretty terrible my guy. DBPM?

[Stillwater]

I hope he does.

What makes you think he is not good defender?

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
1. Tariq Owens Texas Tech 10.1
2. Brandon Clarke Gonzaga 9.8
3. Matisse Thybulle Washington 9.8
4. Kevarrius Hayes Florida 9.2
5. Kenny Wooten Oregon 9.1
6. Xavier Tillman Michigan State 8.9
7. Ethan Happ Wisconsin 8.9
8. Paschal Chukwu Syracuse 8.7
9. Jon Teske Michigan 8.4
10. Elijah Thomas Clemson 8.3
Cameron Reddish 2.7
He was 9th out of 14 players on his own roster
and way way down the list among all div 1 players

I thought you was going to offer analysis. This is pretty terrible my guy. DBPM?

no I don't have anything left to say about this kid. The stats speak for themselves.
He's fd himself enough by his lackluster play given the preseason expectations.
He would not have gotten much shine or critics at all this season if he was not a 5 star and esp if he had been on a team without Zion ...I mean if nobody knew who he was before the season, they still wouldnt and noone would be putting him in the draft at all.

[King Ken]

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
1. Tariq Owens Texas Tech 10.1
2. Brandon Clarke Gonzaga 9.8
3. Matisse Thybulle Washington 9.8
4. Kevarrius Hayes Florida 9.2
5. Kenny Wooten Oregon 9.1
6. Xavier Tillman Michigan State 8.9
7. Ethan Happ Wisconsin 8.9
8. Paschal Chukwu Syracuse 8.7
9. Jon Teske Michigan 8.4
10. Elijah Thomas Clemson 8.3
Cameron Reddish 2.7
He was 9th out of 14 players on his own roster
and way way down the list among all div 1 players

I thought you was going to offer analysis. This is pretty terrible my guy. DBPM?

no I don't have anything left to say about this kid. The stats speak for themselves.
He's fd himself enough by his lackluster play given the preseason expectations.
He would not have gotten much shine or critics at all this season if he was not a 5 star and esp if he had been on a team without Zion ...I mean if nobody knew who he was before the season, they still wouldnt and noone would be putting him in the draft at all.

....

[Stillwater]

I thought you was going to offer analysis. This is pretty terrible my guy. DBPM?

no I don't have anything left to say about this kid. The stats speak for themselves.
He's fd himself enough by his lackluster play given the preseason expectations.
He would not have gotten much shine or critics at all this season if he was not a 5 star and esp if he had been on a team without Zion ...I mean if nobody knew who he was before the season, they still wouldnt and noone would be putting him in the draft at all.

....

[The Box Office]

Reddish's stature crumbled. He shouldn't be drafted. He's THAT bad. There are tons of prospects who are better than him. Stay in school, kid.

[Stillwater]

Reddish's stature crumbled. He shouldn't be drafted. He's THAT bad. There are tons of prospects who are better than him. Stay in school, kid.

He has to declare because there are those who still think he will become what he wasnt this season. He stays, and he's a 2nd rounder with another lackluster season. Somebody will bet on their development staff and take him late lottery to 20/ 9 times out of 10 and there is still the chance somebody is dumb enough to take him higher playing the long game

[CptCrunch]

I hope for your sake if atl picks him he becomes what you think.
I don't see it anytime in the next 2 years.
He's not a good defender and his catch and shoot ability is overrated by alot.
So I'm not seeing it at all.
System fit or not I'd take several others before him that are proven

I hope he does.

What makes you think he is not good defender?

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
1. Tariq Owens Texas Tech 10.1
2. Brandon Clarke Gonzaga 9.8
3. Matisse Thybulle Washington 9.8
4. Kevarrius Hayes Florida 9.2
5. Kenny Wooten Oregon 9.1
6. Xavier Tillman Michigan State 8.9
7. Ethan Happ Wisconsin 8.9
8. Paschal Chukwu Syracuse 8.7
9. Jon Teske Michigan 8.4
10. Elijah Thomas Clemson 8.3
Cameron Reddish 2.7
He was 9th out of 14 players on his own roster
and way way down the list among all div 1 players

Btw DBPM doesn't measure defense by the way especially for a player with outlier (bad) OBPM since it is defined as the residual of 'Raw BPM' - 'Offensive BPM'. Regression frameworks in general breaks down for outlier points.

In general DRPM and DRAPM has some value as defensive measure since they are based on possession level data, while DBPM is largely worthless even for NBA players.

No one has compiled the data necessary to calculate RAPM family stats for college. Reddish and his stats suck. You are basically drafting him for his tools and pretty jumper form.

[Stillwater]

I hope he does.

What makes you think he is not good defender?

Defensive Box Plus/Minus
1. Tariq Owens Texas Tech 10.1
2. Brandon Clarke Gonzaga 9.8
3. Matisse Thybulle Washington 9.8
4. Kevarrius Hayes Florida 9.2
5. Kenny Wooten Oregon 9.1
6. Xavier Tillman Michigan State 8.9
7. Ethan Happ Wisconsin 8.9
8. Paschal Chukwu Syracuse 8.7
9. Jon Teske Michigan 8.4
10. Elijah Thomas Clemson 8.3
Cameron Reddish 2.7
He was 9th out of 14 players on his own roster
and way way down the list among all div 1 players

Btw DBPM doesn't measure defense by the way especially for a player with outlier (bad) OBPM since it is defined as the residual of 'Raw BPM' - 'Offensive BPM'. Regression frameworks in general breaks down for outlier points.

In general DRPM and DRAPM has some value as defensive measure since they are based on possession level data, while DBPM is largely worthless even for NBA players.

No one has compiled the data necessary to calculate RAPM family stats for college. Reddish and his stats suck. You are basically drafting him for his tools and pretty jumper form.

When you go to lease something, the LLC estimates the amount of value that a vehicle will have at the end of the lease in a few years and it is called residual value
Reddish' residual value is poor right now

[Geaux_Hawks]

But offensively, what skills does Reddish really have? To me, he looks like a sloppy ball-handler, and his shooting stats are awful. Blaming his shooting on poor spacing is nonsensical. If he had any kind of jump shot, he should have made a high percentage. And it's not like that was something new - he was a bad percentage shooter in the Nike league he played in. He's a talented versatile defender, and that has value but at this point - that's all of his value - and he's not exactly known as a high energy guy. What he has going for him is that he looks the part and is a good athlete who can defend athletic players. He is not an all-around player, and I don't see any reason to expect that to change.

He shot a better percentage from FT in college than Bradley Beal did. He also shot a very similar percentage to Bradley Beal form 3. People don't blame his shooting percentages on poor spacing. We blame his low fg % on poor spacing because it makes it harder to finish at the rim. His low shooting percentage should be looked at in context. The dude shot 7.4 threes a game. How many of those were good shots and how many of those were bad shots? Also, that was a completely different role than he's been in his entire career. He played PG in high school. Does his ball-handling need improvement? Yes. But you're a Wizard fan. How much better were Beal's handles coming out of college than Reddish's?

I'll also point out that many people here are forming opinion on Cam solely from his time at Duke. Cam Reddish has been under the fixed lens of scouts since he entered high school. You take one year and look at it in isolation and you can come to these conclusions. https://www.aseaofblue.com/2017/6/29/15892288/john-calipari-cameron-reddish-pg-team-usa-basketball

I've read reports from scouts that go to Duke practices and they say that he has stretches where he looks like he's the best player on the floor. His low shooting percentages are concerning, but I put him in the Bradley Beal category tbh. Read his scouting report from The Athletic. They call him a potentially elite shooter. He's not going to stop being polarizing, but if you look at him in context, you'll understand why scouts love him. Not only does he project as a shooter, but he's also a solid playmaker and when he improves his handles (something that's easily improvable) he'll be a nightmare to guard defensively. Along with the potential to play great defense.

All these haters in here remind me of how the Bobcats cut Boris Diaw. Diaw then leaves and becomes a major cog on the Spurs championship team. Context for a basketball player is everything. Cam played a completely different role, on an offense that wasn't suited to him all while facing the fact that his ball handling simply was not good enough to get to the rim consistently. His ball handling can be improved and in the NBA he'll be playing a role much more beneficial for him. You can write off what I'm saying as potential, but the reality is that the great GM's and scouts look past a general notion of "potential" and to a realm of specifics. How does this player fit with our current personnel. How does this player fit into our team culture. How hard does this player work on his game. What does his coach say. What does his development year to year show.

If all you know of Cam is from his time at Duke, then you don't know Cam. Hopefully the Wiz are smart enough to draft him if players from the top tier are gone.

You would think we have 3 or 4 years of game tape of this guy playing at Duke based off of how people formed such opinions that they have of Cam. He's 19 year old kid who was forced to play behind 2 non shooting, paint cloggers. Not only was it hard for him to get to the basket with those 2 on the floor, but literally anyone else Duke had. Cam was Duke spacing. Without him, the lanes are even more clogged. If Cam was as bad as people are making him out to be, wouldn't Coach K simply keep him on the bench? I mean he obviously provides nothing else to the team, and was a waste of space otherwise.

[Ruzious]

Oh gawd, enough with the excuses for having to deal with the horrors of playing with Zion and JR... this is just nuts. Those 2 drew double-teams. They provided at least as many opportunities for Reddish as they gave away. He played for Duke because he was better than the reserves - particularly on defense. It doesn't follow that because K played him - he should be a lotto pick. There's a vast area in between

[Duke4life831]

Oh gawd, enough with the excuses for having to deal with the horrors of playing with Zion and JR... this is just nuts. Those 2 drew double-teams. They provided at least as many opportunities for Reddish as they gave away. He played for Duke because he was better than the reserves - particularly on defense. It doesn't follow that because K played him - he should be a lotto pick. There's a vast area in between

Ya I would love to have this go to reason to defend one of my Dukies, but ya I'm not getting why so many people are coming up with excuses for Cam.

Watch any highlight from Zion this season, the first thing you will see is him always having 2-3 defenders on him. Those extra defenders are coming from somewhere, many times helping off of Cam. RJ was the more feared wing player, which means Cam every single game got the worst wing defender on the opposing team. And this ain't the NBA, most teams don't have multiple guys that can guard 6'8 high end wing players. So he had the worst defender, his man was helping off all the time, what else could he ask for to make his life easier.

When it comes to his role. I haven't been shy to criticize (bash) K for the last 3-4 seasons, especially this season. But what else was he supposed to go with Cam. Before the season started Cam was in competition with RJ as the secondary ball handler. When the season started Cam actually got the ball a good amount to try and create for himself. It was clear as day he couldn't do that role so throughout the season his role continues to decrease. Then Zion went down and Cam had another chance to show he can handle a bigger load on the offense. He just ended up with his worst stretch of the season. What else couldve been done for Cam?

I'm on record I think Duke was a fine choice for RJ because Duke's defense was able to hide his horrible defense for the majority of the season and having Zion on offense helped. I think it was a horrible choice for Zion because he had no one to spread the floor for him. I think Duke was the perfect place for Cam. Zion wasn't a guy that demanded the ball, all he had to do was knock down wide open 3s and attack the worst defender on the opposing team. I don't get the excuses for him, he just looks like a player the guys who do the high school rankings got wrong. And lets not act like there weren't major questions about his consistency, motor/intensity coming into college.

[Stillwater]

Oh gawd, enough with the excuses for having to deal with the horrors of playing with Zion and JR... this is just nuts. Those 2 drew double-teams. They provided at least as many opportunities for Reddish as they gave away. He played for Duke because he was better than the reserves - particularly on defense. It doesn't follow that because K played him - he should be a lotto pick. There's a vast area in between

Ya I would love to have this go to reason to defend one of my Dukies, but ya I'm not getting why so many people are coming up with excuses for Cam.

Watch any highlight from Zion this season, the first thing you will see is him always having 2-3 defenders on him. Those extra defenders are coming from somewhere, many times helping off of Cam. RJ was the more feared wing player, which means Cam every single game got the worst wing defender on the opposing team. And this ain't the NBA, most teams don't have multiple guys that can guard 6'8 high end wing players. So he had the worst defender, his man was helping off all the time, what else could he ask for to make his life easier.

When it comes to his role. I haven't been shy to criticize (bash) K for the last 3-4 seasons, especially this season. But what else was he supposed to go with Cam. Before the season started Cam was in competition with RJ as the secondary ball handler. When the season started Cam actually got the ball a good amount to try and create for himself. It was clear as day he couldn't do that role so throughout the season his role continues to decrease. Then Zion went down and Cam had another chance to show he can handle a bigger load on the offense. He just ended up with his worst stretch of the season. What else couldve been done for Cam?

I'm on record I think Duke was a fine choice for RJ because Duke's defense was able to hide his horrible defense for the majority of the season and having Zion on offense helped. I think it was a horrible choice for Zion because he had no one to spread the floor for him. I think Duke was the perfect place for Cam. Zion wasn't a guy that demanded the ball, all he had to do was knock down wide open 3s and attack the worst defender on the opposing team. I don't get the excuses for him, he just looks like a player the guys who do the high school rankings got wrong. And lets not act like there weren't major questions about his consistency, motor/intensity coming into college.

Exactly and sometimes Reddish showed up in that scenario offensively but rare is the key word.
K's misuse of the roster in the loss against MSU came down to two things in my opinon;
1 Goldwire didn't get Cams minutes that would have changed the outcome going by the impact when Cam, was out in previous wins.
2. Zion didn't get the ball in his hands in the last play out of the timeout to create something & who is the stronger finisher through contact despite RJ being a legit option when noone is trying to foul intentionally.

[King Ken]

Oh gawd, enough with the excuses for having to deal with the horrors of playing with Zion and JR... this is just nuts. Those 2 drew double-teams. They provided at least as many opportunities for Reddish as they gave away. He played for Duke because he was better than the reserves - particularly on defense. It doesn't follow that because K played him - he should be a lotto pick. There's a vast area in between

Ya I would love to have this go to reason to defend one of my Dukies, but ya I'm not getting why so many people are coming up with excuses for Cam.

Watch any highlight from Zion this season, the first thing you will see is him always having 2-3 defenders on him. Those extra defenders are coming from somewhere, many times helping off of Cam. RJ was the more feared wing player, which means Cam every single game got the worst wing defender on the opposing team. And this ain't the NBA, most teams don't have multiple guys that can guard 6'8 high end wing players. So he had the worst defender, his man was helping off all the time, what else could he ask for to make his life easier.

When it comes to his role. I haven't been shy to criticize (bash) K for the last 3-4 seasons, especially this season. But what else was he supposed to go with Cam. Before the season started Cam was in competition with RJ as the secondary ball handler. When the season started Cam actually got the ball a good amount to try and create for himself. It was clear as day he couldn't do that role so throughout the season his role continues to decrease. Then Zion went down and Cam had another chance to show he can handle a bigger load on the offense. He just ended up with his worst stretch of the season. What else couldve been done for Cam?

I'm on record I think Duke was a fine choice for RJ because Duke's defense was able to hide his horrible defense for the majority of the season and having Zion on offense helped. I think it was a horrible choice for Zion because he had no one to spread the floor for him. I think Duke was the perfect place for Cam. Zion wasn't a guy that demanded the ball, all he had to do was knock down wide open 3s and attack the worst defender on the opposing team. I don't get the excuses for him, he just looks like a player the guys who do the high school rankings got wrong. And lets not act like there weren't major questions about his consistency, motor/intensity coming into college.

I disagree. Duke was a great choice for R.J. and Zion. Not for Cam and Tre.

Cam and Tre were our WCJ and Duval from last year where we sold out to fit our best players which were Allen and Bagley to the mismanagement of WCJ and Duval. Sadly both Tre and Cam been long term commits, R.J. and Zion joined on board later.

[King Ken]

Oh gawd, enough with the excuses for having to deal with the horrors of playing with Zion and JR... this is just nuts. Those 2 drew double-teams. They provided at least as many opportunities for Reddish as they gave away. He played for Duke because he was better than the reserves - particularly on defense. It doesn't follow that because K played him - he should be a lotto pick. There's a vast area in between

College is not the NBA. All teams did especially once conference play started was create a wall to prevent Zion from attacking the paint with his left hand or getting position on the back to the basket and made sure they covered Cam at the 3 and forced him to drive where he was a charge drawing machine due to the NCAA calling everything a charge.

Double teams in college don't equal double teams in the NBA especially when it's just a wall and the big man can just sit in the paint. Once the NBA guys see him, this will all be moot anyway.

[clyde21]

Oh gawd, enough with the excuses for having to deal with the horrors of playing with Zion and JR... this is just nuts. Those 2 drew double-teams. They provided at least as many opportunities for Reddish as they gave away. He played for Duke because he was better than the reserves - particularly on defense. It doesn't follow that because K played him - he should be a lotto pick. There's a vast area in between

Ya I would love to have this go to reason to defend one of my Dukies, but ya I'm not getting why so many people are coming up with excuses for Cam.

Watch any highlight from Zion this season, the first thing you will see is him always having 2-3 defenders on him. Those extra defenders are coming from somewhere, many times helping off of Cam. RJ was the more feared wing player, which means Cam every single game got the worst wing defender on the opposing team. And this ain't the NBA, most teams don't have multiple guys that can guard 6'8 high end wing players. So he had the worst defender, his man was helping off all the time, what else could he ask for to make his life easier.

When it comes to his role. I haven't been shy to criticize (bash) K for the last 3-4 seasons, especially this season. But what else was he supposed to go with Cam. Before the season started Cam was in competition with RJ as the secondary ball handler. When the season started Cam actually got the ball a good amount to try and create for himself. It was clear as day he couldn't do that role so throughout the season his role continues to decrease. Then Zion went down and Cam had another chance to show he can handle a bigger load on the offense. He just ended up with his worst stretch of the season. What else couldve been done for Cam?

I'm on record I think Duke was a fine choice for RJ because Duke's defense was able to hide his horrible defense for the majority of the season and having Zion on offense helped. I think it was a horrible choice for Zion because he had no one to spread the floor for him. I think Duke was the perfect place for Cam. Zion wasn't a guy that demanded the ball, all he had to do was knock down wide open 3s and attack the worst defender on the opposing team. I don't get the excuses for him, he just looks like a player the guys who do the high school rankings got wrong. And lets not act like there weren't major questions about his consistency, motor/intensity coming into college.

good post, and I agree most of it.

one thing though, I don't know if HS evaluators 'got it wrong'...I mean u can clearly see the talent on the guy. but yes, he had a lot of consistency issues in HS which were even more exacerbated in college.

I still believe in the talent, but his floor is wayyyyyyy too low to be taken in the lotto IMO...and some people here are talking about a top 5 pick which is just ridiculous.

[HeadtopChunes]

So what's the selling point of Cam?

What are the pro-cam arguments?

- role at duke
- could/will shoot better
- highschool flashed upside
- defensive wing with length and some skill?

I guess if you frame him as 3nD wing with some potential for more its not bad, but doesnt really look like a player you want in the lottery