A little hype from ESPN, but TMAC rains on the parade

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

Please be real and acknowledge that playing with Trae + Collins, as excited as I am about them, is nowhere near in the same stratosphere as playing with LeBron ****ing James and Dwyane ****ing Wade. Those are two of the greatest players in league history, in or near their primes, plus Chris Bosh.

I acknowledge that.

Don't miss the point... which was more limited to the assertion that, again, the max contract actually works in favor of cities not named NY, LA or Chicago, because LBJ, Wade, and Bosh couldn't expect to make more than a maximum anyhow....

And so... that allowed some other city to be the fortunate recipient of the priority that followed after that for the three of them... to collude together to win a ring.

[azuresou1]

Don't miss the point... which was more limited to the assertion that, again, the max contract actually works in favor of cities not named NY, LA or Chicago, because LBJ, Wade, and Bosh couldn't expect to make more than a maximum anyhow....

And again I completely disagree with this point. I would much rather make $30M a year in NY - or Miami, which IS a Tier 1 city at that level of income - than in Atlanta or Detroit.

Past a certain level of money cost of living becomes irrelevant, and it's about how many luxuries and amenities each city has.

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

(Dirty little secret is that you're agreeing with me, and you still don't realize you are. But whatever.)

[~Wretch~]

Name one guy on our team in our ten year playoff run that had the talent/charisma/excitement/whatever word you want to use to attract/recrute/beg/parlay/entice any other player to want to play in Atlanta? Did any of Joe, Marvy Marv, Teague, Al talk about FAs joining the Hawks? If we can't get our own players to stump for their team and City, the battle is already lost.

The guys we had were the guys stars wanted on their teams to help them win and round out their rosters.

The only thing special in the air in 2015 - The 60 win season was the win streak - the arena was jumping and loud, it was the talk everywhere, ticket prices jumped (where I could get a ticket for $52 in the 100 section anytime, during and after the streak same tickets were $96) because Atlantans wanted to be part of the streak to say they were there. After the disappointing playoff showing that excitement didn't last into next season. Remember 2015 started off with the Ferry debacle.

Atlanta needs a player that excites the city. Like Vick did for the Falcons, like Acuna is doing for the Braves, like Josef Martinez for AU. We are hopeful that Trae and John are those guys for the Hawks.

Atlanta is an event / spectacle city. If the event is big or the spectacle big enough, folks will be excited and will fill the arena. Despite being a transient town, I don't buy the argument that players won't come because there are fans of other teams in the arena. That's a bunch of BS. There are Lakers / Celtics / Bulls / etc... fans all over the country, not just in Atlanta. The real drawback, imo, is the historical lack of success, the ongoing narrative that Atlanta fans suck (which is not true, but seems that way sometimes because they only come out in droves for the spectacle), and the ongoing skepticism over the ownership / management of the Hawks.

Personally, I think Ressler and TS are diminishing the lingering feelings about management. I also think Trae is becoming the star that creates a spectacle. There's no denying there's a buzz around Trae and an excitement around his level of play. IF he keeps doing magical things that makes the NBA community talk, the spectacle will continue to grow which will bring out the more enthusiastic fans.

So for me, the only tangible thing keeping elite FAs away is the historical lack of success. And that becomes a bit of a self fulfilling prophesy after a while. But drafting well and developing the young talent into an exciting brand of basketball that other players want to be a part of is the first step. I think they are doing that now. Next, they have to actually win something of note. Make the playoffs when no one is expecting it. Win home court. Etc.. After that, I think the FAs will come.

And if I'm being completely honest, it wouldn't totally surprise me to see Trae influence a big name guy to come even before they have success on the court. Trae is the type of player that other players gravitate toward, imo. He's the alpha. Guys will come, imo.

For I don't know how many years, maybe even a couple of decades...I've been trying to get people to understand the points that you guys are making here. Especially the part in bold. It is most certainly that. There is no franchise history with this team in Atlanta. We are historically inept in terms of advancing in the playoffs - we have never mattered. If you're not doing anything and you have no history...WHO are your fans? Just us.

This starts with elite talent - which is another argument that I've had for decades now. IT. IS. NECCESSARY.

...and for all the folks who argued this with me over the years, I wonder if they've put the correlation together between our highest draft pick in over a decade and the kind of historic production that player is putting out. The only constant besides getting beat in the 1st and 2nd round of the playoffs year after year is this franchise's reluctance to tear down and rebuild.

But let me not derail the subject at hand. Atlanta has to build something meaningful before the ACTUAL fans of the team to come out to support it. And there will be a lot of stunned media when it happens (most of whom will probably act like they knew this all along).

[Buzzard]

For I don't know how many years, maybe even a couple of decades...I've been trying to get people to understand the points that you guys are making here. Especially the part in bold. It is most certainly that. There is no franchise history with this team in Atlanta. We are historically inept in terms of advancing in the playoffs - we have never mattered. If you're not doing anything and you have no history...WHO are your fans? Just us.

This starts with elite talent - which is another argument that I've had for decades now. IT. IS. NECCESSARY.

...and for all the folks who argued this with me over the years, I wonder if they've put the correlation together between our highest draft pick in over a decade and the kind of historic production that player is putting out. The only constant besides getting beat in the 1st and 2nd round of the playoffs year after year is this franchise's reluctance to tear down and rebuild.

But let me not derail the subject at hand. Atlanta has to build something meaningful before the ACTUAL fans of the team to come out to support it. And there will be a lot of stunned media when it happens (most of whom will probably act like they knew this all along).

I agree that we need a identity. I would say Dominique, Dekembe gave us a identity; though that was a very long time ago. Trae is looking like the player that can make it happen again. On the general board it was posted that Trae has averaged 24.8 points and 9.1 assist the 2nd half of the season. That would rank 15th in points and 2nd in assist if it were for the whole season. That not only gives us a identity with fans, it also gives us an identity with players.

I have a strong feeling more than just a few players see Trae as someone they would like to be on the same team with. He is dynamic, never quits, and gives players opportunities only a few point guards in the league can come close to. We are not far from being relevant and I really don't care what the naysayers think. Just like Windhorst has come over, the rest will come over once the consistency has been established.

[saloonyk8]

There's just no way Atlanta will be able to complete for FA elite players no matter what ownership etc does.

Which cities have landed elite talent through FA? Lakers - LeBron, warriors- KD, Miami - LeBron, Cavs - LeBron.

Which teams traded for elite talent? Raps - Kawhi, Thunder - PG

I'm not really sure there's a clear path for MVP level talent other than the draft. Sixers recognized that and got Embiid and still couldn't land LeBron or PG. Then they traded for Butler cause they didn't think they had a shot at Kawhi, Klay, or KD

[saloonyk8]

For I don't know how many years, maybe even a couple of decades...I've been trying to get people to understand the points that you guys are making here. Especially the part in bold. It is most certainly that. There is no franchise history with this team in Atlanta. We are historically inept in terms of advancing in the playoffs - we have never mattered. If you're not doing anything and you have no history...WHO are your fans? Just us.

This starts with elite talent - which is another argument that I've had for decades now. IT. IS. NECCESSARY.

...and for all the folks who argued this with me over the years, I wonder if they've put the correlation together between our highest draft pick in over a decade and the kind of historic production that player is putting out. The only constant besides getting beat in the 1st and 2nd round of the playoffs year after year is this franchise's reluctance to tear down and rebuild.

But let me not derail the subject at hand. Atlanta has to build something meaningful before the ACTUAL fans of the team to come out to support it. And there will be a lot of stunned media when it happens (most of whom will probably act like they knew this all along).

I agree that we need a identity. I would say Dominique, Dekembe gave us a identity; though that was a very long time ago. Trae is looking like the player that can make it happen again. On the general board it was posted that Trae has averaged 24.8 points and 9.1 assist the 2nd half of the season. That would rank 15th in points and 2nd in assist if it were for the whole season. That not only gives us a identity with fans, it also gives us an identity with players.

I have a strong feeling more than just a few players see Trae as someone they would like to be on the same team with. He is dynamic, never quits, and gives players opportunities only a few point guards in the league can come close to. We are not far from being relevant and I really don't care what the naysayers think. Just like Windhorst has come over, the rest will come over once the consistency has been established.

I agree. I think we can get second level FA for sure, but who that will be I'm not sure.

[saloonyk8]

For I don't know how many years, maybe even a couple of decades...I've been trying to get people to understand the points that you guys are making here. Especially the part in bold. It is most certainly that. There is no franchise history with this team in Atlanta. We are historically inept in terms of advancing in the playoffs - we have never mattered. If you're not doing anything and you have no history...WHO are your fans? Just us.

This starts with elite talent - which is another argument that I've had for decades now. IT. IS. NECCESSARY.

...and for all the folks who argued this with me over the years, I wonder if they've put the correlation together between our highest draft pick in over a decade and the kind of historic production that player is putting out. The only constant besides getting beat in the 1st and 2nd round of the playoffs year after year is this franchise's reluctance to tear down and rebuild.

But let me not derail the subject at hand. Atlanta has to build something meaningful before the ACTUAL fans of the team to come out to support it. And there will be a lot of stunned media when it happens (most of whom will probably act like they knew this all along).

I agree that we need a identity. I would say Dominique, Dekembe gave us a identity; though that was a very long time ago. Trae is looking like the player that can make it happen again. On the general board it was posted that Trae has averaged 24.8 points and 9.1 assist the 2nd half of the season. That would rank 15th in points and 2nd in assist if it were for the whole season. That not only gives us a identity with fans, it also gives us an identity with players.

I have a strong feeling more than just a few players see Trae as someone they would like to be on the same team with. He is dynamic, never quits, and gives players opportunities only a few point guards in the league can come close to. We are not far from being relevant and I really don't care what the naysayers think. Just like Windhorst has come over, the rest will come over once the consistency has been established.

Vick definitely changed the entire Falcons narrative maybe Zion can do the same with Trae

[_s_t_u_r_t_]

To bring this back to TMac's point....

It's not just that ATL hasn't been able to distinguish itself in any way that might give the franchise a leg-up in competing for top tier free agents.

It's that ATL has a LEG-DOWN on the competition. We haven't even been seen as "meh." We've been seen as "ugh."

And the reason for that?

Players have pride. When fans come to a game and cheer as much or nearly as much for the opposition, that evidently earns for the franchise a reputation among players, "Assuming you have a choice, you don't want to have to play for that team."

So, yes, we have to accept that we've got that problem. Still. TMac still runs in those circles, and has insight.

Solving our ownership problem was a good step, in fact a vital step actually, but it's still not sufficient.

We have to have obtain.... and by obtain, we unavoidably mean DRAFT... that guy who is going to be such an icon league-wide that the people most intensely interested in buying tickets are Hawks fans, not fans of other teams.

[~Wretch~]

I remember a few years ago, very distinctly...a home game for Indiana where there were more fans there cheering for the opposition and it made the news. One of their players, I believe it was David West, addressed the reporters and called out the real fans - saying they needed to show up and support the team. I wanna say it was either the Kobe-led Lakers or the Warriors that drew the fair-weather contingent out.

Point is though, it's a league-wide thing. There are far more casual NBA fans who are only as loyal as the flavor of the month. They were Boston fans, then they were Heat fans, and now they're GSW fans. For a team like the Hawks with no history, no identity, and mediocre track record - the casual presence is just amplified. It is a given that a) we'll have attendance problems and b) the casual fan is going to show up for the headliners and cheer for them.

I use to argue this with people, but if and when we get an iconic player the fans are going to show up. Hell, they showed up in 2008 for that team in the playoffs and recently when we had that 60 win season. I don't believe that a top tier free agent is going to want to come here and lead the charge to turn it around - but if we have that iconic player, I think it's very likely that we could lure a top tier guy who doesn't necessarily transcend the game (such as a LeBron or KD or Step). If we had our act together, I have no doubts we could sign a top 20 caliber guy. We most certainly could get a Joe Johnson type looking to prove himself.

TBH, if Trae becomes that kind of player (which 25/10 certainly is), Collins continues to produce, and we hit it big in the draft this year, we're not going to need much to put us over.

[Geaux_Hawks]

I remember a few years ago, very distinctly...a home game for Indiana where there were more fans there cheering for the opposition and it made the news. One of their players, I believe it was David West, addressed the reporters and called out the real fans - saying they needed to show up and support the team. I wanna say it was either the Kobe-led Lakers or the Warriors that drew the fair-weather contingent out.

Point is though, it's a league-wide thing. There are far more casual NBA fans who are only as loyal as the flavor of the month. They were Boston fans, then they were Heat fans, and now they're GSW fans. For a team like the Hawks with no history, no identity, and mediocre track record - the casual presence is just amplified. It is a given that a) we'll have attendance problems and b) the casual fan is going to show up for the headliners and cheer for them.

I use to argue this with people, but if and when we get an iconic player the fans are going to show up. Hell, they showed up in 2008 for that team in the playoffs and recently when we had that 60 win season. I don't believe that a top tier free agent is going to want to come here and lead the charge to turn it around - but if we have that iconic player, I think it's very likely that we could lure a top tier guy who doesn't necessarily transcend the game (such as a LeBron or KD or Step). If we had our act together, I have no doubts we could sign a top 20 caliber guy. We most certainly could get a Joe Johnson type looking to prove himself.

TBH, if Trae becomes that kind of player (which 25/10 certainly is), Collins continues to produce, and we hit it big in the draft this year, we're not going to need much to put us over.

I was just going to mention that this problem isn't just related to the Hawks, but to every other team in the league without history to back them up. The Clippers play in LA just like the Lakers, but up until they became lob city, you wouldn't have known it. When the Hawks were up and coming in the JJ/Smith/Horford days, fans were thinking we had something in the making with that bunch. The project ultimately flamed out, but fans came to support them, albeit it was against the Celtics, in the playoffs the first year they made it.

Fans would have supported them more and longer had we went out and made a move for a big name ala Dwight Howard at that time. From Atlanta, Best friends with one of your star players, considered a top 10 player, etc. It would have easily brought more fans out to the games and created a stronger following. I still remember the buzz of what a potential addition of Howard would have meant to fans. Unfortunately, that move was made a few years to late.