The Shapiro & Rogers Megathread

[Fairview4Life]

I am convinced you are only here to make Schad keep posting so the board doesn't go to ****.

[BigLeagueChew]

Look pal, I can't help if your takes are weak. Shapiro was in charge of baseball operations for 15 years in Cleveland. He had a losing season in 11 of those and destroyed the cleveland fan base whilst in charge.

Double A was executive of the year too - we pushed him out of his role. Either you care about that award or you don't. Personally, I don't because I know that Shapiro has had the longest track record of carnage of any GM.

Again, one gm starts teams from scratch the other works with the talent already there(because their was some talent to work with). So there is your reason for the offset.

It's nice that you leave out all the success the indians are having now, likely assuming that's because Shapiro left rather than what he built again from scratch.

[Myth11111]

Ratul is a troll. Stop responding to him as if his opinion is worth anything.

[Schad]

The average World Series team from 2009 - 2018, by regular season rank in the category:

In runs above average: 5.8.
In pitching fWAR: 9.6.
In defensive runs above average: 11.2.

Being good at hitting baseballs is strongly correlated with being good at baseball. Pitching well also helps, though less. Defense matters, but less than pitching, and much less than hitting.

[Fenris-77]

You can't reason someone out of an idea they didn't first reason themselves into. It's like Mark Twain was a RGM regular.

[ratul]

Look pal, I can't help if your takes are weak. Shapiro was in charge of baseball operations for 15 years in Cleveland. He had a losing season in 11 of those and destroyed the cleveland fan base whilst in charge.

Double A was executive of the year too - we pushed him out of his role. Either you care about that award or you don't. Personally, I don't because I know that Shapiro has had the longest track record of carnage of any GM.

Again, one gm starts teams from scratch the other works with the talent already there(because their was some talent to work with). So there is your reason for the offset.

It's nice that you leave out all the success the indians are having now, likely assuming that's because Shapiro left rather than what he built again from scratch.

Yeesh, more weak takes. Shapiro was handed a world series contender when he became the GM of the Indians. He took them to the playoffs in his maiden year and then subsequently destroyed the team, with Cleveland going from first in attendance to last. Sound familiar?

[ratul]

The average World Series team from 2009 - 2018, by regular season rank in the category:

In runs above average: 5.8.
In pitching fWAR: 9.6.
In defensive runs above average: 11.2.

Being good at hitting baseballs is strongly correlated with being good at baseball. Pitching well also helps, though less. Defense matters, but less than pitching, and much less than hitting.

Sorry, how do these numbers make your point exactly?

As I said, the Royals won the ring in 2015 and were first in defense, the cubs won the ring in 2016 and were second in defense. The Red Sox were 7th in 2018 and won the ring.

But, moreover, if you think defense doesn't matter, then why sign Grichuk? You think he's an above average defender even though he isn't then his offense is really all that should matter - yet he doesn't get on base. So, which is it?

In addition, say we take your point and assume defense doesn't matter. The jays have been almost no hit twice this year and are 3-8 and there isn't really anyone we can say is an offensive juggernaut in our starting nine - so what exact Schapiro plan are you advocating? He clearly doesn't care about defense (to be fair, neither do you) but he also doesn't care about offense either. So, what do we care about then?

[BigLeagueChew]

Yeesh, more weak takes. Shapiro was handed a world series contender when he became the GM of the Indians. He took them to the playoffs in his maiden year and then subsequently destroyed the team, with Cleveland going from first in attendance to last. Sound familiar?

Sounds like you avoid reality.

“I’m more concerned with, ‘Do we have a good long-term plan? -Shapiro

We were told by AA that his plan here was supposed to be long term but that didn't end up coming to fruition.

Out of the 2 GM's one is clearly better at developing a long term plan and it hasn't been your favorite GM, as greatful as I am for finally having playoff baseball in Jays land, what were going through now is because of him.

[Schad]

Quotes a post that specifically states that defense matters, just less than offense and pitching. Spends three paragraphs railing against the suggestion that defense doesn't matter. Yeah, you aren't arguing in good faith.

[wamco]

All off season I heard how exciting it was gonna be to watch this young team and I rolled my eyes. Bad baseball is bad baseball. This is unwatchable.

This can be true but also is best for the team. A top 5 pick with the corresponding bonus pool will be worth it.
My expectations were so low that I can deal with a season like this one...

Oh- I believe we are headed in the right direction: just saying people say watching prospects play is so exciting. 2 weeks later they essentially say “ I’ll check back in a year”

I don’t have much faith in the srf , panonne , and other aaa pitchers acquired via trade except Thornton at the moment though. Hopefully they can at least form a cheap bullpen if they fail as starters

[ratul]

Yeesh, more weak takes. Shapiro was handed a world series contender when he became the GM of the Indians. He took them to the playoffs in his maiden year and then subsequently destroyed the team, with Cleveland going from first in attendance to last. Sound familiar?

Sounds like you avoid reality.

“I’m more concerned with, ‘Do we have a good long-term plan? -Shapiro

We were told by AA that his plan here was supposed to be long term but that didn't end up coming to fruition.

Out of the 2 GM's one is clearly better at developing a long term plan and it hasn't been your favorite GM, as greatful as I am for finally having playoff baseball in Jays land, what were going through now is because of him.

Man, I hate continually having to do this to you brother - but there is no plan

1. We are last in defense, according to final 2018 stats
2. Our offense is 27th now in terms of runs scored and we have been almost no-hit twice
3. Who in our starting line-up gives you 100% confidence? I'd say Smoakie but he's also a free-agent
4. Our farm depends on Vladdie who is here because of Double A - do you trust Shatkins to not eff that up?
5. Our payroll is 22nd in the league and we just gave 55mn to a guy who can't get on base 10 games into the season for a last-place team.
6. We gave 110mn to gurriel, grichuk and moralys in long-term money.

Sorry, while Double A comes off another playoff appearance, we appear to be going for the long long term plan. As in, when we're all dead. Like our attendance.

[BigLeagueChew]

Man, I hate continually having to do this to you brother - but there is no plan

1. We are last in defense, according to final 2018 stats
2. Our offense is 27th now in terms of runs scored and we have been almost no-hit twice
3. Who in our starting line-up gives you 100% confidence? I'd say Smoakie but he's also a free-agent
4. Our farm depends on Vladdie who is here because of Double A - do you trust Shatkins to not eff that up?
5. Our payroll is 22nd in the league and we just gave 55mn to a guy who can't get on base 10 games into the season for a last-place team.
6. We gave 110mn to gurriel, grichuk and moralys in long-term money.

Sorry, while Double A comes off another playoff appearance, we appear to be going for the long long term plan. As in, when we're all dead. Like our attendance.

blah blah blah

It's called rebuilding, enjoy.

[The_Hater]

Quotes a post that specifically states that defense matters, just less than offense and pitching. Spends three paragraphs railing against the suggestion that defense doesn't matter. Yeah, you aren't arguing in good faith.

You’re way to smart to only have figured this out now. A troll is a troll. I’m pretty sure he doesnt read a single post he responds too.

[BigLeagueChew]

Watch on YouTube

[ratul]

Quotes a post that specifically states that defense matters, just less than offense and pitching. Spends three paragraphs railing against the suggestion that defense doesn't matter. Yeah, you aren't arguing in good faith.

You’re way to smart to only have figured this out now. A troll is a troll. I’m pretty sure he doesnt read a single post he responds too.

Um, am I a troll because you don't like what I say or because it impedes on your collective orgasm for Mark Schapiro?

I read everything closely and I watch a lot of baseball and have been doing so a long time. I am even open to changing my mind. However, in my opinion, Mark Shapiro needed to go. Yesterday. Not trying to ruffle feathers - just saying it like I think it is pal

[SharoneWright]

Watch on YouTube

that's not how it happened in the book...

[The_Hater]

Quotes a post that specifically states that defense matters, just less than offense and pitching. Spends three paragraphs railing against the suggestion that defense doesn't matter. Yeah, you aren't arguing in good faith.

You’re way to smart to only have figured this out now. A troll is a troll. I’m pretty sure he doesnt read a single post he responds too.

Um, am I a troll because you don't like what I say or because it impedes on your collective orgasm for Mark Schapiro?

I read everything closely and I watch a lot of baseball and have been doing so a long time. I am even open to changing my mind. However, in my opinion, Mark Shapiro needed to go. Yesterday. Not trying to ruffle feathers - just saying it like I think it is pal

So reading comprehension and an overall lack of common sense are the issues. Got it.

[manjusaka]

Mark Shapiro suck, lets trade him to Tampa Bay for Matthew Silverman.

[ratul]

I am totally fine with reassigning, trading and/or firing Mark Shapiro. Preferably yesterday.

[ratul]

You’re way to smart to only have figured this out now. A troll is a troll. I’m pretty sure he doesnt read a single post he responds too.

Um, am I a troll because you don't like what I say or because it impedes on your collective orgasm for Mark Schapiro?

I read everything closely and I watch a lot of baseball and have been doing so a long time. I am even open to changing my mind. However, in my opinion, Mark Shapiro needed to go. Yesterday. Not trying to ruffle feathers - just saying it like I think it is pal

So reading comprehension and an overall lack of common sense are the issues. Got it.

Lol, who is the one defending a 3-8 team with 9,000 people in its home crowd and the worst defense in baseball? If reading comprehension gets me to that place, i’d def prefer to be illiterate. Reading is NOT fundamental.