Team Canada Basketball Thread V2.0

[aminiaturebuddha]

I would basically take that as a no from Wiggins if those are the exact words he used. Saying he's "open" to it suggests to me that he would have to be convinced, and that's probably not the kind of guy we want on the team anyway. It would be entirely different if he would have said that he was interested or would like to play but had to confirm that there were no conflicts. I just don't understand Wiggins. He just seems to have no passion for basketball at all.

[mojo13]

I would basically take that as a no from Wiggins if those are the exact words he used. Saying he's "open" to it suggests to me that he would have to be convinced, and that's probably not the kind of guy we want on the team anyway. It would be entirely different if he would have said that he was interested or would like to play but had to confirm that there were no conflicts. I just don't understand Wiggins. He just seems to have no passion for basketball at all.

Buddha - do you think Wiggins would help or hurt Team Canada if he played? I am not sure there is an easy answer to that and I supposed it would depend on a number of variables. But even having to ask that type of question - is it is worth the risk? Is there any evidence out there that the T-Wolves are a better team with him on the floor? Would that be different for Canada?

[Mattd97]

He was our best player last time out. I'd say that would help. I think his attitude pisses us off fans more than it does his teammates.


Though I suppose Jimmy butler might disagree

[Hair Canada]

By the way, I don't even buy Wiggins' answer about Triano. He had years to deny the rumors and no doubt he knew about them, but not a peep. Funny that he chooses to wait until it's clear that Triano would not be the coach.

Anyway, I'm with Mojo -- don't really want him on the team TBH. I see the temptation, but I like a team of committed and motivated players without any players who come to chuck up low-percentage shots, play hero-ball, don't pass, give lousy lackluster defense, and add little value, while all along being sure that they are the superstars of the team and are doing us all a big favor by even showing up. Plus the mainstream media would have a field day with it, which is added value

[Hair Canada]

So with Iggy declaring this really could be an epic draft.

RJ Barrett - Unknown. Most likely entering. Top 5 pick.
Brandon Clarke - Unknown. Very likely entering. Probable lottery pick.
Nickeil Alexander Walker - Declared. Likely entering. Possible Lottery pick.
Luguentz Dort - Declared. Possible 1st round pick.
Mfiondu Kabengele - Unknown. Possible 1st round pick.
Ignas Brazdeikis - Declared. Announced intent to remain in draft. Late first to second.
Simi Shittu - Declared. Announced intent to remain in draft. Probable mid-2nd round pick.
Marial Shayok - Declared. Senior. Late 2nd to undrafted.
Lindell Wigginton - Declared. Announced intent to remain in draft. Late second to undrafted.
Oshae Brissett - Declared. Testing, has not hired agent. Likely undrafted.
Kyle Alexander - Declared. Senior. Likely undrafted.



Andrew Nembhard. Unknown. Likely stays.
AJ Lawson - Unknown. Likely stays.


This could get us into he 7+ range.

Really interesting. I'm a bit surprised by Iggy, Simi, Wigginton, and Brissett declaring. Brissett I still see coming back after testing the water. He just has nothing to gain here after such a bad season. For Iggy (and of course also Simi), I just don't see how he can be a first-rounder. Something really special would have to happen. But I think he'd be okay with going mid-second and carving his roster spot on a team.

RJ, by the way, has all but already declared. Clarke -- I heard some rumbling that it's in the air, but would be very surprised if he goes back to the Zags. Why would he? What could he gain?

Kabengele also up in the air, but if I'm him I would for sure test the water. His is a case where I can see it going both ways. On the one hand, he's already shown enough to pick many people's interest and perhaps convince someone to take a chance on him at the end of the first round. But he's also in a position to go back to FS and be a focal point on their offense, playing many more minutes (he's been much better at the end of the year in avoiding the silly fouls) and putting up big numbers that would solidify a first-round spot (perhaps even late lottery in some constellation).

In any case, yes, that's going to be a historic year, not just for Canada. No non-US country has ever had more than 4 players drafted in the same year.

[frumble]

Buddha - do you think Wiggins would help or hurt Team Canada if he played? I am not sure there is an easy answer to that and I supposed it would depend on a number of variables. But even having to ask that type of question - is it is worth the risk? Is there any evidence out there that the T-Wolves are a better team with him on the floor? Would that be different for Canada?

I share your concerns, and would not be terribly upset if Wiggins takes a pass, but I think we need to account for who the alternative is. T-Wolves might be better off w Wiggins off the floor b/c his replacements (Deng? CJ Williams?) are pretty good.

Given our weakness at wing, Wiggins not being on the team would likely mean more time for T. Scrubb or an undersized 4 playing the 3.

No disrespect to T. Scrubb, but I think it goes without saying that the dropoff b/w Wiggins and T. Scrubb is greater than the dropoff b/w Wiggins and Deng.

[Hair Canada]

Buddha - do you think Wiggins would help or hurt Team Canada if he played? I am not sure there is an easy answer to that and I supposed it would depend on a number of variables. But even having to ask that type of question - is it is worth the risk? Is there any evidence out there that the T-Wolves are a better team with him on the floor? Would that be different for Canada?

I share your concerns, and would not be terribly upset if Wiggins takes a pass, but I think we need to account for who the alternative is. T-Wolves might be better off w Wiggins off the floor b/c his replacements (Deng? CJ Williams?) are pretty good.

Given our weakness at wing, Wiggins not being on the team would likely mean more time for T. Scrubb or an undersized 4 playing the 3.

No disrespect to T. Scrubb, but I think it goes without saying that the dropoff b/w Wiggins and T. Scrubb is greater than the dropoff b/w Wiggins and Deng.

That's a good point of course. I'm still hoping that Brooks comes. Other options would be (except for Scrubb) trying either Ejim or RJ at the 3 (sharing some of Wiggins shortcomings and much less experienced and mature, but at least he'll be highly motivated and committed). Or we could also go small and play 3 guards -- CoJo, Murray, and Shai (assuming they all show up).

I guess my point is: A fully committed Wiggins, who doesn't come thinking he's the star and buys into the team, is probably better than any of these options and can certainly help. I'm just not seeing team Canada getting that version of Wiggins right now.

[DreamTeam09]

Buddha - do you think Wiggins would help or hurt Team Canada if he played? I am not sure there is an easy answer to that and I supposed it would depend on a number of variables. But even having to ask that type of question - is it is worth the risk? Is there any evidence out there that the T-Wolves are a better team with him on the floor? Would that be different for Canada?

I share your concerns, and would not be terribly upset if Wiggins takes a pass, but I think we need to account for who the alternative is. T-Wolves might be better off w Wiggins off the floor b/c his replacements (Deng? CJ Williams?) are pretty good.

Given our weakness at wing, Wiggins not being on the team would likely mean more time for T. Scrubb or an undersized 4 playing the 3.

No disrespect to T. Scrubb, but I think it goes without saying that the dropoff b/w Wiggins and T. Scrubb is greater than the dropoff b/w Wiggins and Deng.

That's a good point of course. I'm still hoping that Brooks comes. Other options would be (except for Scrubb) trying either Ejim or RJ at the 3 (sharing some of Wiggins shortcomings and much less experienced and mature, but at least he'll be highly motivated and committed). Or we could also go small and play 3 guards -- CoJo, Murray, and Shai (assuming they all show up).

I guess my point is: A fully committed Wiggins, who doesn't come thinking he's the star and buys into the team, is probably better than any of these options and can certainly help. I'm just not seeing team Canada getting that version of Wiggins right now.

If Wiggins is not there then I would go

Cojo
Murray
RJ
Kelly Olynck
TT

If wiggins shows up

Murray
RJ
Wiggins
Kelly
TT

[aminiaturebuddha]

Buddha - do you think Wiggins would help or hurt Team Canada if he played? I am not sure there is an easy answer to that and I supposed it would depend on a number of variables. But even having to ask that type of question - is it is worth the risk? Is there any evidence out there that the T-Wolves are a better team with him on the floor? Would that be different for Canada?

I share your concerns, and would not be terribly upset if Wiggins takes a pass, but I think we need to account for who the alternative is. T-Wolves might be better off w Wiggins off the floor b/c his replacements (Deng? CJ Williams?) are pretty good.

Given our weakness at wing, Wiggins not being on the team would likely mean more time for T. Scrubb or an undersized 4 playing the 3.

No disrespect to T. Scrubb, but I think it goes without saying that the dropoff b/w Wiggins and T. Scrubb is greater than the dropoff b/w Wiggins and Deng.

That's a good point of course. I'm still hoping that Brooks comes. Other options would be (except for Scrubb) trying either Ejim or RJ at the 3 (sharing some of Wiggins shortcomings and much less experienced and mature, but at least he'll be highly motivated and committed). Or we could also go small and play 3 guards -- CoJo, Murray, and Shai (assuming they all show up).

I guess my point is: A fully committed Wiggins, who doesn't come thinking he's the star and buys into the team, is probably better than any of these options and can certainly help. I'm just not seeing team Canada getting that version of Wiggins right now.

I think frumble makes a good point. It's so hard to know if Wiggins would be engaged and play unselfishly if he were named to the team. But given our lack of wing depth right now, I think he could be useful...IF...but it's a really big if.

Somewhat surprisingly, the one area where I could see him being useful is on defence, again partly due to lack of better options. His defensive metrics in the NBA are generally horrible, but occasionally I have seen him put in an effort on that end, and when he does, he has the capability to be a very solid one-on-one defender. Canada is really lacking a player that could be used to make trouble for opposing wing players who are lighting us up.

However, taking everything into consideration, I think the big question mark about his commitment level is too hard to ignore. I'm not sure that I would want a player whose heart wasn't really into it, and wouldn't be willing to sacrifice for the team. I don't know that he isn't willing to make those sacrifices, I just think that nothing he has said leads me believe that's where he's at. As an example of what I would love to hear from Wiggins, take a look at the things that Stauskas has been saying this year - that he knows it'll be a battle just to make the team, that he's willing to play whatever role they want, etc. Granted, Stauskas' career is in a totally different place than Wiggins', but I would like that sentiment for all National Team players to be the same.

[mojo13]

And now Mfiondu Kabengele has declared with an intent to sign an agent and stay end.

Based on how he is trending I think he is a 1st rounder. Probably higher than Dort.

[TrueNorth31]

Grange has posted yet another story on Wiggins. The Timberwolves are certainly not standing in the way;

For the record, the Timberwolves have no objection to their players competing internationally.

“Those are conversations we have internally with guys,” said Timberwolves head coach Ryan Saunders, who also has American Karl-Anthony Towns and Senegal’s Gorgui Dieng on his roster as potential World Cup participants.

“I’m all for competition in the summertime, especially high-level competition. Going through an actual training camp does something for a players’ wind, so does competing against some of the best players. Whatever decisions are made are made, but ultimately we support our players.”

https://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/no-surprise-andrew-wiggins-still-undecided-playing-canada/

As an aside Boucher certainly is a guy who should be in consideration for a backup post role - the Unicorn brings a lot of versatility.

[CharlieTO]

Grange has posted yet another story on Wiggins. The Timberwolves are certainly not standing in the way;

For the record, the Timberwolves have no objection to their players competing internationally.

“Those are conversations we have internally with guys,” said Timberwolves head coach Ryan Saunders, who also has American Karl-Anthony Towns and Senegal’s Gorgui Dieng on his roster as potential World Cup participants.

“I’m all for competition in the summertime, especially high-level competition. Going through an actual training camp does something for a players’ wind, so does competing against some of the best players. Whatever decisions are made are made, but ultimately we support our players.”

https://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/no-surprise-andrew-wiggins-still-undecided-playing-canada/

As an aside Boucher certainly is a guy who should be in consideration for a backup post role - the Unicorn brings a lot of versatility.

Karl-Anthony Towns plays for the Dominican Republic

[CharlieTO]

I share your concerns, and would not be terribly upset if Wiggins takes a pass, but I think we need to account for who the alternative is. T-Wolves might be better off w Wiggins off the floor b/c his replacements (Deng? CJ Williams?) are pretty good.

Given our weakness at wing, Wiggins not being on the team would likely mean more time for T. Scrubb or an undersized 4 playing the 3.

No disrespect to T. Scrubb, but I think it goes without saying that the dropoff b/w Wiggins and T. Scrubb is greater than the dropoff b/w Wiggins and Deng.

That's a good point of course. I'm still hoping that Brooks comes. Other options would be (except for Scrubb) trying either Ejim or RJ at the 3 (sharing some of Wiggins shortcomings and much less experienced and mature, but at least he'll be highly motivated and committed). Or we could also go small and play 3 guards -- CoJo, Murray, and Shai (assuming they all show up).

I guess my point is: A fully committed Wiggins, who doesn't come thinking he's the star and buys into the team, is probably better than any of these options and can certainly help. I'm just not seeing team Canada getting that version of Wiggins right now.

I think frumble makes a good point. It's so hard to know if Wiggins would be engaged and play unselfishly if he were named to the team. But given our lack of wing depth right now, I think he could be useful...IF...but it's a really big if.

Somewhat surprisingly, the one area where I could see him being useful is on defence, again partly due to lack of better options. His defensive metrics in the NBA are generally horrible, but occasionally I have seen him put in an effort on that end, and when he does, he has the capability to be a very solid one-on-one defender. Canada is really lacking a player that could be used to make trouble for opposing wing players who are lighting us up.

However, taking everything into consideration, I think the big question mark about his commitment level is too hard to ignore. I'm not sure that I would want a player whose heart wasn't really into it, and wouldn't be willing to sacrifice for the team. I don't know that he isn't willing to make those sacrifices, I just think that nothing he has said leads me believe that's where he's at. As an example of what I would love to hear from Wiggins, take a look at the things that Stauskas has been saying this year - that he knows it'll be a battle just to make the team, that he's willing to play whatever role they want, etc. Granted, Stauskas' career is in a totally different place than Wiggins', but I would like that sentiment for all National Team players to be the same.

I think it's really interesting how critical people are of Wiggins and his association with the national team considering how small of a sample size we have of him with team Canada. I know, I know what people are gonna say about that, we have a small sample size because he's not dedicated, committed and doesn't care enough to play for team Canada. I'm gonna play devil's advocate and reject this notion. If I ask these questions how would you answer? When Wiggins played for Canada did he try hard and was he committed? When Wiggins played for Canada was he one of our best players? Would his absence from international competitions be understandable if we consider his circumstances regarding free agency, contract negotiations, preparing for an upcoming season and preparing for the start of his career, and for personal reasons we didn't know about, etc? Could his declined invitations to team Canada events actually be the sign of someone who is frustrated and upset with the results of a team that he passionately feels should have and should do better and so he wants to see signs of this before he's all in? Do some athletes perform better representing their countries than they do playing professionally and should we exclusively judge his contributions to the team with his NBA performances?

I think he can definitely be a difference maker for team Canada. I think that he didn't like playing for Triano and I also think that if I were a guy who had an Olympic birth taken away from me and my team by a stupid coach there's a good chance I wouldn't want to play for him again too and that I would want the organization to get its act together and pursue the best leadership possible to take the team to the next level. Different people and players respond to failure differently and I know there is an ideal response that people should have, but at least he has an emotional response that signifies that he has some passion and cares in his own way. I also think that the criticism he has received for his absence from team Canada has been unfair and sensationalized because the majority of these conclusions are the result of speculation. There's a lot of behind the scenes stuff we don't know about and many of the conclusions people create have been unfounded. His team Canada resume is short and unspectacular, but it's not long enough for me to ignore his CV and conclusively dismiss him as a potential, key contributor. I would want him to work on his team Canada resume and give him the chance to make it great because it's hardly filled in. The guy has hardly worn the maple leaf and I'm not gonna discard him as a team member now because I wanna judge him with how he plays with it on.

[Mattd97]

Wiggins past 2 NBA seasons have been a nightmare and from the outside his attitude has sucked. No doubt. But he played for Canada in the juniors and in the Olympic qualifiers and was our best player and one of the best in the tournament each time. He led us in scoring but I certainly dont remember him being a chucked in either situation. He had over 15 points on under 11 shots shooting 49.5% in FIBA Americas. Certainly he might have completely changed who he is since then, but his past gives me hope he would be a huge asset. And frankly, with a group of death and only a couple major scorers, I think it's worth it.

[frumble]

SI with a new mock draft out yesterday:

https://www.si.com/nba/2019/04/09/2019-nba-mock-draft-march-madness-zion-williamson-jarrett-culver-deandre-hunter

Barrett 3
NAW 19
Clarke 23
Dort 27
Kabengele 28
Brazdeikis 54

On their big board:

https://www.si.com/nba/2019/03/13/nba-draft-big-board-2019-zion-williamson-ja-morant-rj-barrett-march-madness

Barrett 4
NAW 22
Dort 25
Clarke 32
Brazeikis 43
Shittu 69
Shayok 77

[aminiaturebuddha]

I think it's really interesting how critical people are of Wiggins and his association with the national team considering how small of a sample size we have of him with team Canada. I know, I know what people are gonna say about that, we have a small sample size because he's not dedicated, committed and doesn't care enough to play for team Canada. I'm gonna play devil's advocate and reject this notion. If I ask these questions how would you answer? When Wiggins played for Canada did he try hard and was he committed? When Wiggins played for Canada was he one of our best players? Would his absence from international competitions be understandable if we consider his circumstances regarding free agency, contract negotiations, preparing for an upcoming season and preparing for the start of his career, and for personal reasons we didn't know about, etc? Could his declined invitations to team Canada events actually be the sign of someone who is frustrated and upset with the results of a team that he passionately feels should have and should do better and so he wants to see signs of this before he's all in? Do some athletes perform better representing their countries than they do playing professionally and should we exclusively judge his contributions to the team with his NBA performances?

I think he can definitely be a difference maker for team Canada. I think that he didn't like playing for Triano and I also think that if I were a guy who had an Olympic birth taken away from me and my team by a stupid coach there's a good chance I wouldn't want to play for him again too and that I would want the organization to get its act together and pursue the best leadership possible to take the team to the next level. Different people and players respond to failure differently and I know there is an ideal response that people should have, but at least he has an emotional response that signifies that he has some passion and cares in his own way. I also think that the criticism he has received for his absence from team Canada has been unfair and sensationalized because the majority of these conclusions are the result of speculation. There's a lot of behind the scenes stuff we don't know about and many of the conclusions people create have been unfounded. His team Canada resume is short and unspectacular, but it's not long enough for me to ignore his CV and conclusively dismiss him as a potential, key contributor. I would want him to work on his team Canada resume and give him the chance to make it great because it's hardly filled in. The guy has hardly worn the maple leaf and I'm not gonna discard him as a team member now because I wanna judge him with how he plays with it on.

Thanks for this input, Charlie. I think you make some good level-headed points. I was a defender of Wiggins for many years, and I'll be the first to admit that a large part of my frustration about him has to do with the fact that his game has not improved (and in many ways has actually regressed) despite all of the "work" he's been putting in on his game in the summers when he hasn't shown up for Team Canada, that he hasn't shown much passion for the sport recently at any level (not just Team Canada), and that we haven't heard him speak positively about the idea of even playing for Canada for many years.

To some of your specific questions - yes, he was one of our best players in 2015, no question. He did made mistakes though, particularly on the defensive end, which could maybe have been partly attributed to his youth. Unfortunately, his play in the NBA in the last 4 years suggests that those types of mistakes aren't just attributed to his youth, it's who he's become as a player. I will also say, however, that we absolutely needed his scoring at that tournament. We have many other offensive weapons these days, and so if Wiggins can't contribute in other areas (ball movement, defence, rebounding, etc.) he becomes less important to the team than he was in 2015.

You then asked a series of questions about his possible motivations for him not participating in recent years, including contract situation, preparations for the NBA season, problems with the program and Triano, etc. But later, you say that that the criticism that he has received has been unfair and sensationalized because it was "the result of speculation". But what were you doing, with your list of possible reasons he might not have been with the team, but engaging in rampant speculation designed to portray his absence in the best possible light? I agree we should deal with the facts - and the simple fact is that he has not participated, nor has he publicly shown any support for the National Team in the last 4 years. Whatever his reason, you're right, we can't know for sure.

I also just want to comment specifically on one of the specific possible excuses that you provided, that possibly he was upset with the results of the team and thought they should do better. If this is true, and you are supposed to be one of the best players on that team (and certainly in 2015 he was seen as THE best player going forward) then I would suggest that the kind of player we want on the team is someone who would keep striving for improvement, and keep pushing the team to get better on the court, rather than walking away at the first sign of a setback. Here, again, I think we can draw parallels to his situation in the NBA, where he's one of two #1 overall picks on a team that has shown no signs of improvement. Perhaps he and KAT need to look at themselves and figure out how they can change their games to help the team improve. If you're supposed to be one of the key people, at some point you have to stop looking at everyone else for reasons why you're failing.

Look, I would love to have an engaged, committed, team-oriented Wiggins on the team. You're right that he absolutely COULD be an extremely useful player for Team Canada if he plays the right way. I would love to see that. I've just almost completely given up hope that we ever will.

[Hair Canada]

Great retort Buddha. Very much how I think of this.

Now, let's be realistic. If Wiggins wants to play for team Canada, he will. I have no doubt that if he shows real interest (which, as Buddha writes, he hasn't for the last 4 years, not just by not showing up, but also by not being engaged with the program and publically showing care for what the team does, for example through social media) the team will not say no.

And yes, he might be helpful, especially if he brings a version of the player he used to be a couple of years ago, one that knows his limitations and tries to play team ball.

I think all we are saying is that these things are not at all obvious -- it's not obvious he'll come motivated rather than just "doing us a favor" (all indications so far point to the latter). It's not clear he can fit well into a team framework and accept a secondary role if needed (his attitude in the NBA the last couple of years does not suggest that). It's not clear he's able to play decent defense against good competition, the kind of which we'll face in the WC. And most of all, it's just not clear if he can truly help the team play efficient winning basketball.

[Bobby Plump]

Anyone ever notice that announcer Mark Jones is in denial of his Canadian roots? I'm watching the Hornets/Magic game tonight and Jones calls himself a "Miami native."

[CharlieTO]

I think all we are saying is that these things are not at all obvious -- it's not obvious he'll come motivated rather than just "doing us a favor" (all indications so far point to the latter)

This is what I was talking about. You say it's not obvious, but it's obvious and then relaunch criticism. I think some sports fans, especially in this forum just intuitively gravitate to criticizing when given the opportunity without absolute, objective info. I get that we don't usually get absolute, objective info and so that leaves it up to us to interpret the info that we have, but boy do people lean towards criticism and negativity when it comes to evaluating players and coaches. I just think that this coming summer and tourney will finally be the absolute, objective info we'll need to define Andrew Wiggins' relationship with the senior men's national team. I look forward to it and hope he pulls through, travels and is key for us. But, if he fails to answer the call or does and acts like a lazy diva then I'll feel justified in berating him to the level he has been around here and I'll be right there with some of you guys in scolding the **** out of him lol.

[frumble]

Some other mock drafts that have come out the last couple days (all of them are first round only):

Sporting News

http://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nba-mock-draft-2019-knicks-land-zion-williamson-duke-dominates-lottery/18tsuykb6f1m612du15zs9zeur

Barrett 3
Clarke 12
NAW 17
Dort 27


Bleacher Report

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2829514-2019-nba-mock-draft-predicting-1st-round-results-post-ncaa-tournament#slide15

Barrett 3
Clarke 16
NAW 23
Kabengele 26


CBS Sports

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/draft/mock-draft/

Barrett 2
NAW 13
Clarke 17
Dort 28


USA Today

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2019/04/10/nba-mock-draft-projected-first-round-after-ncaa-tournament/3414402002/

Barrett 3
Clarke 16
NAW 18
Dort 29


NBC Sports

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wizards/2019-nba-mock-draft-60-wrapping-ncaa-tournament

Barrett 3
Clarke 10
NAW 21
Dort 27