Official Frank Ntilikina Thread

[Knickgm2190]

Being the least efficient offensive guard in the NBA =/= being the worst guard in the NBA.

There are two sides of the game and Frank contributes more than shooting

I never said he was the worst guard in the NBA tho. I have said he was the worst offensive guard in the NBA. And I think that stat supports my argument. But I do acknowledge he brings defensive value. But I do believe his defensive value is a bit overrated. Does it really offset his offensive deficiencies?

Well, I was addressing both posts in my reply. You didn't say Frank was the worst guard, but the poster you quoted did.

As far as his offensive deficiencies, I think the stats show that Frank does offset them more times than not, since many games where he gets a good amount of burn, he usually ends up being one of the few positive differential players. That's back of the napkin math, but it is a trend that is hard to ignore.

The big question is does he offset his offensive deficiencies as the PG? The answer to that right now is probably no.

Does he offset it as a player off the ball? It's a much closer call. Which is why I said that if he gets to league average from 3, then it will be a no brainer that he's a rotation player, even if you choose to just use him as a secondary or tertiary ballhandler on offense.

Frank's issues are aggression and accuracy. If his shooting comes around, and he's not playing PG, then his aggression becomes a very minor issue. He brings enough to the floor to offset that.

To be clear, I think Frank is one of the worst guards in the NBA. He may not be THE worst but I'm not sure. I have to think about it. I know its hard for me to name many that are worse. True story. This also is not personal. Good kid. Seems real nice but all that doesn't matter to me. Its about winning a championship at this point bottom line.

[god shammgod]

well that escalated quickly

[Knickgm2190]

Bingo, which is kind of inexcusable in a season that didn't matter.

I can agree that he has rarely gotten significant time or when he did he got hurt. I can also say that when you see two different coaches coming to a similar conclusion about a player that the fault is usually with the player. If Frank is the player you believe him to be at some point it is on him to show it. No one can do it for him.

I agree.

To be fair though, Frank did show it. When he was a starter at PG, we were in the top half of the league defensively and it was by far our most productive lineup.

Fiz removed Frank from the lineup, claiming defensive concerns, and then proceeded to play increasingly worse defensive rotations.

Frank needs to show more offensively for sure, but his defense has been consistent enough to be counted as a rock solid positive.

When your employer brings in 3 or 4 different people to work at your same position / expertise. A position that only needs one person for the majority of the workload. You are doing something wrong. Usually a person in this position is getting let go or fired.

[DOT]

I mean, if it's about winning a championship, then you can always use guys like Frank, provided he gets his shooting down (which has always been my key with him)

You can't build a contender around him, but when you're building a contender, he's the type of player you use to build around your stars. Guys who are unselfish, play D, and hit shots are always in demand

Take Marcus Smart on the Celtics. They stuck with him despite his terrible offense (which was pretty much as bad as Frank's for a while) because he played defense and moved the ball. And he's been a key contributor for them, just not a star. And he was taken 6th overall. This year was the first year since his rookie year he shot above 30% from 3, and averages less than 10 points per game yet still has been their starter nearly all season

I don't see any reason Frank can't be our version of Smart, just friendlier and less floppy. We get in KD, Kyrie, Butler, trade for AD/Beal or Knox reaches his potential, any combination of those, guys like Frank are exactly who you want rounding out your roster, especially if he gets his 3 pointer consistent, cause he's been able to shoot 37, 38 percent over the course of a month long stretch, he just isn't consistent over the course of a season

[mpharris36]

it's not that he's hasn't improved at the rate that people like, there has been zero improvement in anything quantifiable from year 1 to 2. actually he's slightly worse this year in some things. and i'm not anti-frank, i think if he can get a league average 3 he becomes a good role player, but it's true.

i agree I was disappointed as well. I think its been a combination of things.

1. We started the year with Trey Burke starting (as guess what Trey Burke isn't here) - put Frank at the 3 (which made no sense)
2. Finally started him at he 1 and we arguably played our best overall team ball. Had our best defensive rating and while at times there was struggles offensively I can argue that was our best best starting lineup.
3. After a dysmal start to the orlando game Fiz pulled the strings on that lineup and went with Mudiay (who also wont be here next year)
4. Then Frank has a groin injury (that sucks because it cut his season in half)
5. Then we traded for DSJ
6. then he came back and got injured again

Overall it was just a lost year by poor play, some highlights mixed in, and injuries. So I guess the writing could be on the wall because Frank isn't this regimes pick. But I still believe in him and his ability to fit next to superstars.

Look all our rookies have struggled outside of Mitch. Maybe trier but he's also 23 and an ISO scorer which in a year playing with bad players ISO scorers tend to look better. But most of our young players struggled. Frank is just polarizing so he gets a majority of the attention.

Fair response and I generally agree but I'ma pick on the enlarged portion. Aren't most of you now calling for Frank to be kept to man the SG spot next to Kyrie. In today's NBA, one could argue that the 2/3 position are now interchangeable. So in hindsight, was putting him at the 3 at the beginning of the year really that nonsensical?

Putting him at the 3...and putting him next to a scoring point guard are two different things. I never thought Frank could full time be enough of a playmaker to be the main cog...no one ever believed that. However, ideally he's a secondary type playmaker that eventually can hit an open 3 and defend the best guard on the floor. I don't agree with having him to defend 6'8 - 6'9 guys unless its on a switch which is why I think he's so valuable. At times we might be able to switch 1-5 with if we are lucky enough to have a front court of Zion/Mitch. That will make us a potentially great defensive team.

Especially with KD/Kyrie who both like the rock but also both like playing off the ball coming off screens in catch and shoot situations I think Frank ideally compliments them there. It really all comes down to Frank being able to hit a NBA level 3 consistently IMO. He's 31% career. He took a turn for the worse this year but then I look at Oct of this year and he shot 39% from 3 the first month so I believe he has it in him and nothing in his form suggests otherwise.

I also believe the roster construction doesn't suit his skill set. I know people will see it as an excuse but a team that searched for offense all year and played lineups with bad offense a player like Frank you really can't use to his abilities. Playing him alongside 2 of the best scorers in the game he can kind of pick his spots and not be required to do more than he is allowed. It's why sometimes guys like Burke/Mudiay looked better on offense because we had no other options. Ideally if we kill the offseason we will have those options for him to fit in seamlessly.

[Knickgm2190]

I mean, if it's about winning a championship, then you can always use guys like Frank, provided he gets his shooting down (which has always been my key with him)

You can't build a contender around him, but when you're building a contender, he's the type of player you use to build around your stars. Guys who are unselfish, play D, and hit shots are always in demand

Take Marcus Smart on the Celtics. They stuck with him despite his terrible offense (which was pretty much as bad as Frank's for a while) because he played defense and moved the ball. And he's been a key contributor for them, just not a star. And he was taken 6th overall. This year was the first year since his rookie year he shot above 30% from 3, and averages less than 10 points per game yet still has been their starter nearly all season

I don't see any reason Frank can't be our version of Smart, just friendlier and less floppy. We get in KD, Kyrie, Butler, trade for AD/Beal or Knox reaches his potential, any combination of those, guys like Frank are exactly who you want rounding out your roster, especially if he gets his 3 pointer consistent, cause he's been able to shoot 37, 38 percent over the course of a month long stretch, he just isn't consistent over the course of a season

In my opinion, I don't believe Frank can ever be the defender Smart is. If he was close there would be no discussion of getting rid of him in the first place. The comparison would be better if Frank was better on the defensive end. Marcus Smart will shut someone down. While Frank has limited players for short bursts. I have never seen him play defense at an elite level. He would need that to counter his offense. If the team looks as projected next year then Frank will not have time to develop a jump shot. It will only be those that are ready to get this team to the finals that will get run. Thats if he is still here. He can't play now longer then 15 minutes on the worst team in the NBA. People think he will get more time on a contender. Thats craziness. There will be jobs on the line in the next couple of years and Fizdale, Perry, and Mills will not allow an inexperienced Frank Ntilikina to hurt the Knicks chances. Something this team has been trying to duplicate over the last 40 years

[mpharris36]

I mean, if it's about winning a championship, then you can always use guys like Frank, provided he gets his shooting down (which has always been my key with him)

You can't build a contender around him, but when you're building a contender, he's the type of player you use to build around your stars. Guys who are unselfish, play D, and hit shots are always in demand

Take Marcus Smart on the Celtics. They stuck with him despite his terrible offense (which was pretty much as bad as Frank's for a while) because he played defense and moved the ball. And he's been a key contributor for them, just not a star. And he was taken 6th overall. This year was the first year since his rookie year he shot above 30% from 3, and averages less than 10 points per game yet still has been their starter nearly all season

I don't see any reason Frank can't be our version of Smart, just friendlier and less floppy. We get in KD, Kyrie, Butler, trade for AD/Beal or Knox reaches his potential, any combination of those, guys like Frank are exactly who you want rounding out your roster, especially if he gets his 3 pointer consistent, cause he's been able to shoot 37, 38 percent over the course of a month long stretch, he just isn't consistent over the course of a season

In my opinion, I don't believe Frank can ever be the defender Smart is. If he was to be close there would be no discussion of getting rid of him in the first place. The comparison would be better if Frank was better on the defensive end. Marcus Smart will shut someone down. While Frank has limited players for short bursts. I have never seen him play defense at an elite level. He would need that to counter his offense. If the team looks as projected next year then Frank will not have time to develop a jump shot. It will only be those that are ready to get this team to the finals that will get run. Thats if he is still here. He can't play now longer then 15 minutes on the worst team in the NBA. People think he will get more time on a contender. Thats craziness. There will be jobs on the line in the next couple of years and Fizdale, Perry, and Mills will not allow Frank Ntilikina to hurt the Knicks chances. Something this team has been trying to duplicate over the last 40 years

can you expound on this statement. Do you have stats or numbers to back up this over his 1st two years?

[DOT]

I mean, if it's about winning a championship, then you can always use guys like Frank, provided he gets his shooting down (which has always been my key with him)

You can't build a contender around him, but when you're building a contender, he's the type of player you use to build around your stars. Guys who are unselfish, play D, and hit shots are always in demand

Take Marcus Smart on the Celtics. They stuck with him despite his terrible offense (which was pretty much as bad as Frank's for a while) because he played defense and moved the ball. And he's been a key contributor for them, just not a star. And he was taken 6th overall. This year was the first year since his rookie year he shot above 30% from 3, and averages less than 10 points per game yet still has been their starter nearly all season

I don't see any reason Frank can't be our version of Smart, just friendlier and less floppy. We get in KD, Kyrie, Butler, trade for AD/Beal or Knox reaches his potential, any combination of those, guys like Frank are exactly who you want rounding out your roster, especially if he gets his 3 pointer consistent, cause he's been able to shoot 37, 38 percent over the course of a month long stretch, he just isn't consistent over the course of a season

In my opinion, I don't believe Frank can ever be the defender Smart is. If he was to be close there would be no discussion of getting rid of him in the first place. The comparison would be better if Frank was better on the defensive end. Marcus Smart will shut someone down. While Frank has limited players for short bursts. I have never seen him play defense at an elite level. He would need that to counter his offense. If the team looks as projected next year then Frank will not have time to develop a jump shot. It will only be those that are ready to get this team to the finals that will get run. Thats if he is still here. He can't play now longer then 15 minutes on the worst team in the NBA. People think he will get more time on a contender. Thats craziness. There will be jobs on the line in the next couple of years and Fizdale, Perry, and Mills will not allow Frank Ntilikina to hurt the Knicks chances. Something this team has been trying to duplicate over the last 40 years

can you expound on this statement. Do you have stats or numbers to back up this over his 1st two years?

That's why I can't take some of these people seriously

He's gonna hit you with the "I don't need stats, I watch the games, nerd" and it's dumb because anyone actually watching games would know that's just not true

Like, you can claim whatever you want and just say "I'm just calling it like I see it" and not provide anything to back it up. It's a complete bad faith argument

[Knickgm2190]

I mean, if it's about winning a championship, then you can always use guys like Frank, provided he gets his shooting down (which has always been my key with him)

You can't build a contender around him, but when you're building a contender, he's the type of player you use to build around your stars. Guys who are unselfish, play D, and hit shots are always in demand

Take Marcus Smart on the Celtics. They stuck with him despite his terrible offense (which was pretty much as bad as Frank's for a while) because he played defense and moved the ball. And he's been a key contributor for them, just not a star. And he was taken 6th overall. This year was the first year since his rookie year he shot above 30% from 3, and averages less than 10 points per game yet still has been their starter nearly all season

I don't see any reason Frank can't be our version of Smart, just friendlier and less floppy. We get in KD, Kyrie, Butler, trade for AD/Beal or Knox reaches his potential, any combination of those, guys like Frank are exactly who you want rounding out your roster, especially if he gets his 3 pointer consistent, cause he's been able to shoot 37, 38 percent over the course of a month long stretch, he just isn't consistent over the course of a season

In my opinion, I don't believe Frank can ever be the defender Smart is. If he was to be close there would be no discussion of getting rid of him in the first place. The comparison would be better if Frank was better on the defensive end. Marcus Smart will shut someone down. While Frank has limited players for short bursts. I have never seen him play defense at an elite level. He would need that to counter his offense. If the team looks as projected next year then Frank will not have time to develop a jump shot. It will only be those that are ready to get this team to the finals that will get run. Thats if he is still here. He can't play now longer then 15 minutes on the worst team in the NBA. People think he will get more time on a contender. Thats craziness. There will be jobs on the line in the next couple of years and Fizdale, Perry, and Mills will not allow Frank Ntilikina to hurt the Knicks chances. Something this team has been trying to duplicate over the last 40 years

can you expound on this statement. Do you have stats or numbers to back up this over his 1st two years?

He is 30th in defensive plus minus for point guards. Not just all players or all guards. 30th for point guards alone. Not good. There you are sir.

[Knickgm2190]

In my opinion, I don't believe Frank can ever be the defender Smart is. If he was to be close there would be no discussion of getting rid of him in the first place. The comparison would be better if Frank was better on the defensive end. Marcus Smart will shut someone down. While Frank has limited players for short bursts. I have never seen him play defense at an elite level. He would need that to counter his offense. If the team looks as projected next year then Frank will not have time to develop a jump shot. It will only be those that are ready to get this team to the finals that will get run. Thats if he is still here. He can't play now longer then 15 minutes on the worst team in the NBA. People think he will get more time on a contender. Thats craziness. There will be jobs on the line in the next couple of years and Fizdale, Perry, and Mills will not allow Frank Ntilikina to hurt the Knicks chances. Something this team has been trying to duplicate over the last 40 years

can you expound on this statement. Do you have stats or numbers to back up this over his 1st two years?

That's why I can't take some of these people seriously

He's gonna hit you with the "I don't need stats, I watch the games, nerd" and it's dumb because anyone actually watching games would know that's just not true

Like, you can claim whatever you want and just say "I'm just calling it like I see it" and not provide anything to back it up. It's a complete bad faith argument

Ahh...I think I provided you stats sir. lol

[mpharris36]

In my opinion, I don't believe Frank can ever be the defender Smart is. If he was to be close there would be no discussion of getting rid of him in the first place. The comparison would be better if Frank was better on the defensive end. Marcus Smart will shut someone down. While Frank has limited players for short bursts. I have never seen him play defense at an elite level. He would need that to counter his offense. If the team looks as projected next year then Frank will not have time to develop a jump shot. It will only be those that are ready to get this team to the finals that will get run. Thats if he is still here. He can't play now longer then 15 minutes on the worst team in the NBA. People think he will get more time on a contender. Thats craziness. There will be jobs on the line in the next couple of years and Fizdale, Perry, and Mills will not allow Frank Ntilikina to hurt the Knicks chances. Something this team has been trying to duplicate over the last 40 years

can you expound on this statement. Do you have stats or numbers to back up this over his 1st two years?

He is 30th in defensive plus minus for point guards. Not just all players or all guards. 30th for point guards alone. Not good. There you are sir.

Thats a extremely flawed stat because as you know the knicks as a team were one of the worst defensive teams in the league this year. Defensive +/- incorporates #'s for all 5 guys on the court. So if Enes Kanter or THjr is getting destroyed that hurts Frank defensive +/-

you can't use a team defensive stat to show Frank isn't good at defense. Last year he was best player in the league defending the P&R. While this year was up and down with lineups and health. He had his moments of being a top notch defender.

[DOT]

can you expound on this statement. Do you have stats or numbers to back up this over his 1st two years?

That's why I can't take some of these people seriously

He's gonna hit you with the "I don't need stats, I watch the games, nerd" and it's dumb because anyone actually watching games would know that's just not true

Like, you can claim whatever you want and just say "I'm just calling it like I see it" and not provide anything to back it up. It's a complete bad faith argument

Ahh...I think I provided you stats sir. lol

You provided one stat

Defense is never explained in one catch all stat, especially when that stat is heavily dependent on outside factors like team play, as defensive plus minus is

That'd be like you using PER to say one player is better than another on offense. Love how y'all find one stat to back up your claims then parade it around without context like how assist% is the be all end all of passing stats

[Knickgm2190]

I mean, if it's about winning a championship, then you can always use guys like Frank, provided he gets his shooting down (which has always been my key with him)

You can't build a contender around him, but when you're building a contender, he's the type of player you use to build around your stars. Guys who are unselfish, play D, and hit shots are always in demand

Take Marcus Smart on the Celtics. They stuck with him despite his terrible offense (which was pretty much as bad as Frank's for a while) because he played defense and moved the ball. And he's been a key contributor for them, just not a star. And he was taken 6th overall. This year was the first year since his rookie year he shot above 30% from 3, and averages less than 10 points per game yet still has been their starter nearly all season

I don't see any reason Frank can't be our version of Smart, just friendlier and less floppy. We get in KD, Kyrie, Butler, trade for AD/Beal or Knox reaches his potential, any combination of those, guys like Frank are exactly who you want rounding out your roster, especially if he gets his 3 pointer consistent, cause he's been able to shoot 37, 38 percent over the course of a month long stretch, he just isn't consistent over the course of a season

In my opinion, I don't believe Frank can ever be the defender Smart is. If he was to be close there would be no discussion of getting rid of him in the first place. The comparison would be better if Frank was better on the defensive end. Marcus Smart will shut someone down. While Frank has limited players for short bursts. I have never seen him play defense at an elite level. He would need that to counter his offense. If the team looks as projected next year then Frank will not have time to develop a jump shot. It will only be those that are ready to get this team to the finals that will get run. Thats if he is still here. He can't play now longer then 15 minutes on the worst team in the NBA. People think he will get more time on a contender. Thats craziness. There will be jobs on the line in the next couple of years and Fizdale, Perry, and Mills will not allow Frank Ntilikina to hurt the Knicks chances. Something this team has been trying to duplicate over the last 40 years

can you expound on this statement. Do you have stats or numbers to back up this over his 1st two years?

I apologize, I was wrong. He was 30th a couple of weeks ago and now he is 100th for Point Guards. Lets put the great frank defense on hold for a few please.

[GONYK]

I can agree that he has rarely gotten significant time or when he did he got hurt. I can also say that when you see two different coaches coming to a similar conclusion about a player that the fault is usually with the player. If Frank is the player you believe him to be at some point it is on him to show it. No one can do it for him.

I agree.

To be fair though, Frank did show it. When he was a starter at PG, we were in the top half of the league defensively and it was by far our most productive lineup.

Fiz removed Frank from the lineup, claiming defensive concerns, and then proceeded to play increasingly worse defensive rotations.

Frank needs to show more offensively for sure, but his defense has been consistent enough to be counted as a rock solid positive.

When your employer brings in 3 or 4 different people to work at your same position / expertise. A position that only needs one person for the majority of the workload. You are doing something wrong. Usually a person in this position is getting let go or fired.

It could also mean that your employer doesn't place value on the things you contribute

[Knickgm2190]

That's why I can't take some of these people seriously

He's gonna hit you with the "I don't need stats, I watch the games, nerd" and it's dumb because anyone actually watching games would know that's just not true

Like, you can claim whatever you want and just say "I'm just calling it like I see it" and not provide anything to back it up. It's a complete bad faith argument

Ahh...I think I provided you stats sir. lol

You provided one stat

Defense is never explained in one catch all stat, especially when that stat is heavily dependent on outside factors like team play, as defensive plus minus is

That'd be like you using PER to say one player is better than another on offense. Love how y'all find one stat to back up your claims then parade it around without context like how assist% is the be all end all of passing stats

So you said I wouldn't provide a stat. I did and now it can't be just one stat. You're position is getting weaker by the second. Just stop it. It's ok to be wrong. Let's just move on.

[DOT]

can you expound on this statement. Do you have stats or numbers to back up this over his 1st two years?

He is 30th in defensive plus minus for point guards. Not just all players or all guards. 30th for point guards alone. Not good. There you are sir.

Thats a extremely flawed stat because as you know the knicks as a team were one of the worst defensive teams in the league this year. Defensive +/- incorporates #'s for all 5 guys on the court. So if Enes Kanter or THjr is getting destroyed that hurts Frank defensive +/-

you can't use a team defensive stat to show Frank isn't good at defense. Last year he was best player in the league defending the P&R. While this year was up and down with lineups and health. He had his moments of being a top notch defender.

Fun fact. While Frank's PnR ball handler defense was merely above average this year (65th percentile overall with .83ppp), opponents turned the ball over 26% of the time when he was guarding them. That is 13th in the league, top 7 or 8 if you remove outliers

Plus he was 95th percentile in isolation defense this year. Dudes only scored .56 ppp when defended by him in isolation

Kinda seems like the type of dude you want defending the last shot when you're up by one

[Knickgm2190]

I agree.

To be fair though, Frank did show it. When he was a starter at PG, we were in the top half of the league defensively and it was by far our most productive lineup.

Fiz removed Frank from the lineup, claiming defensive concerns, and then proceeded to play increasingly worse defensive rotations.

Frank needs to show more offensively for sure, but his defense has been consistent enough to be counted as a rock solid positive.

When your employer brings in 3 or 4 different people to work at your same position / expertise. A position that only needs one person for the majority of the workload. You are doing something wrong. Usually a person in this position is getting let go or fired.

It could also mean that your employer doesn't place value on the things you contribute

Quite possible but it would also mean that you would then go somewhere else and ball out. Lets see it happen. I bet you it won't. The Frank you see now is who you will see until he plays himself out the league.

[DOT]

Ahh...I think I provided you stats sir. lol

You provided one stat

Defense is never explained in one catch all stat, especially when that stat is heavily dependent on outside factors like team play, as defensive plus minus is

That'd be like you using PER to say one player is better than another on offense. Love how y'all find one stat to back up your claims then parade it around without context like how assist% is the be all end all of passing stats

So you said I wouldn't provide a stat. I did and now it can't be just one stat. You're position is getting weaker by the second. Just stop it. It's ok to be wrong. Let's just move on.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Bad faith arguments

You can't accept that you used a flawed stat and are clinging to it for dear life and accusing us of being hypocritical.

It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how stats work, what stat means what, and how each stat is calculated

Cause I just provided multiple stats that prove I'm right compared to your one. That means I win according to your logic, no?

[GONYK]

In my opinion, I don't believe Frank can ever be the defender Smart is. If he was to be close there would be no discussion of getting rid of him in the first place. The comparison would be better if Frank was better on the defensive end. Marcus Smart will shut someone down. While Frank has limited players for short bursts. I have never seen him play defense at an elite level. He would need that to counter his offense. If the team looks as projected next year then Frank will not have time to develop a jump shot. It will only be those that are ready to get this team to the finals that will get run. Thats if he is still here. He can't play now longer then 15 minutes on the worst team in the NBA. People think he will get more time on a contender. Thats craziness. There will be jobs on the line in the next couple of years and Fizdale, Perry, and Mills will not allow Frank Ntilikina to hurt the Knicks chances. Something this team has been trying to duplicate over the last 40 years

can you expound on this statement. Do you have stats or numbers to back up this over his 1st two years?

I apologize, I was wrong. He was 30th a couple of weeks ago and now he is 100th for Point Guards. Lets put the great frank defense on hold for few please.

That's more indicative of defensive impact to you than the fact that we have around a top 10 defense league wide whenever Frank gets extended minutes in the backcourt?

[GONYK]

When your employer brings in 3 or 4 different people to work at your same position / expertise. A position that only needs one person for the majority of the workload. You are doing something wrong. Usually a person in this position is getting let go or fired.

It could also mean that your employer doesn't place value on the things you contribute

Quite possible but it would also mean that you would then go somewhere else and ball out. Lets see it happen. I bet you it won't. The Frank you see now is who you will see until he plays himself out the league.

I'm not talking about balling out. I'm talking about defense.

Frank's offense needs to make a leap before balling out.