2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[bondom34]

Brook's been shooting 3s for 3 seasons now. He's averaging 1 more attempt/100 than he did 2 years ago on slightly worse percentages. He's just taking less other shots.

[Texas Chuck]

And the irony here is I like BroLo a lot more than most. Back when the Lakers traded Russell/Mozgov for him and everyone laughed at LA, I was saying not only did they dump a horrific contract, but they got back the better player. Props to Russell for improving this year, but Lopez has always been a very good player.

[Dr Spaceman]

I don’t know how you can say this about Lopez given his offensive game has gone from a low-post bruiser who never shot outside 15 feet to a guy who bombs threes at the same rate as Klay Thompson. I’d say if you’re skeptical about him te-making his game it’s definitely an age thing because he’s the complete opposite of what he used to be. He went from one of the worst defensive bigs in the league to one of the best and transitioned his whole offensive game to be behind the arc.

As far as specific things, well back in his Brooklyn years he was crashing the offensive glass like crazy which always put him out of position defensively and he was typically one of the last down the floor. Now he’s the first down the floor and he has one of the lowest ORB rates ever recorded at his height. He now blocks guys on the way up rather than trying to jump and meet them at the apex and his footwork is so improved he looks like a different guy. As E-Balla said he went from one of the worst defensive rebounding bigs to arguably the best although this transition started a few years ago.

Like I said, the BroLo phenomenon is jsut as strange to me but it’s a real thing.

He's been shooting 3's at volume for 3 years now. He went from 8 attempts per 100 2 years ago, to 9 last year, and 10 this year. Not really what I would call a massive change. The difference is on previous teams they needed him to carry the offense so they used his very skilled post-game and his mid-range shooting as well. Bucks have the luxury of using him in a reduced role. Again coaching and scheme more than player.

As for his defense he's always graded out well as a rim protector. He was a better defensive rebounder earlier in his career. His best rate by far was as a rookie. I won't pretend to have paid close attention to his boxing out year by year--props to you and eballa for that level of commitment, but I'm not buying that he's suddenly this great team defensive rebounder after years of allegedly being terrible.

Crashing the offensive glass is a scheme issue and something to hold a coach responsible for not a player.

Why does it matter when he started shooting 3s? He took 31 in the first 8 years of his career and has taken 1,222 in the last three. The point is you should not doubt his ability to change his game and the three point shooting is the most salient example. He could not shoot 3s coming in and all of a sudden is elite at it.

A lot of young guys come into the league and don’t understand that boxing out is much more important than actually grabbing the board. He got more rebounds when he was younger but was a far worse defensive rebounder because he didn’t box out- and you can see this by looking at his effect on team DRB% in his on/off, whic was negative early in his career and is now best in the league.

Look at DeAndre Jordan for a guy who never figured that out- and now he quite simply sucks at defensive rebounding because he never applied any concepts more complicated than jumping while the ball is in the air.

As far as coaching vs. playing on offensive rebounding, does it actually matter? He gets back on defense now and this makes him a more effective defensive player. This is literally all we’re judging here- what happens to a defense when a player is on the floor.

[truly]

Lopez is elite at challenging shots at the rim and boxing out.But the Bucks scheme around his slow legs.He is basically told to drop back in the paint every time and wait to challenge players there.
His numbers are so good because the Bucks don't ask him to do what he can't.They put him in a position to succeed and he excels at it.
But that doesn't mean he is the 3rd best defender in the league.

So, a few things.

1) If I were to say the things I value most on defense are challenging shots and the rim and boxing out [which, let's be honest, are vital for a great defense] then wouldn't I have a great platform already presented to form an argument on?

2) Rudy Gobert isn't asked to challenge players at the perimeter. Is he not your best defensive player? Because to me he fits the bill of "elite at challenging shots at the rim and boxing out".

1)Sure.I just think that you need to consider other things too.
For example Lopez and how we scheme around him is a big reason the Bucks give up so many 3s.A guard that can pull-up from 3 or a big who can shoot the 3 are pretty much guaranteed open looks because of it.
I think he benefits a lot more from Bledsoe and Giannis than the other way around.
Honestly if it wasn't for his shooting i would be pretty confident in saying we could replace him with any rim protector and be as successful defensively(or very close to it).

2)Doesn't Gobert challenge the pnr ballhandler a lot more compared to Lopez(Lopez doesn't do it at all before opponents get to the rim)?

Again,i don't want to take anything away from Lopez.He has been very good defensively.He is excellent at what he does best.But if you consider his weaknesses he isn't the 3rd best defender in the league.

[Texas Chuck]

Why does it matter when he started shooting 3s? He took 31 in the first 8 years of his career and has taken 1,222 in the last three. The point is you should not doubt his ability to change his game and the three point shooting is the most salient example. He could not shoot 3s coming in and all of a sudden is elite at it.



As far as coaching vs. playing on offensive rebounding, does it actually matter? He gets back on defense now and this makes him a more effective defensive player. This is literally all we’re judging here- what happens to a defense when a player is on the floor.

I agree it doesn't matter when. And I appreciate what you are pointing out in terms of his growth. I misunderstood your point initially and appreciate you clarifying that. I think though he was always a very good mid-range shooter and probably could have been taking 3's sooner had his teams wanted that. But he was so skilled in the post and his teams had little else in terms of offensvie creation. I guess I view this as a gradual growth rather than evidence of the kind of massive defensive impact change that's being suggested here.

And I definitely agree with the latter. It absolutely is part of why his defensive impact looks much better. Right, this is one of the things I always cite in talking about Dirk's defense. But again its part of why I don't attribute as much of the Bucks defensive growth to him and move some of that credit to Bud whose made much better use of his personnel.

As to the specifics about how he blocks shots and boxes out, I won't pretend to have watched a volume of his games sufficient to speak to massive changes in those areas. If you have then I'll defer to you.

[E-Balla]

Why does it matter when he started shooting 3s? He took 31 in the first 8 years of his career and has taken 1,222 in the last three. The point is you should not doubt his ability to change his game and the three point shooting is the most salient example. He could not shoot 3s coming in and all of a sudden is elite at it.



As far as coaching vs. playing on offensive rebounding, does it actually matter? He gets back on defense now and this makes him a more effective defensive player. This is literally all we’re judging here- what happens to a defense when a player is on the floor.

I agree it doesn't matter when. And I appreciate what you are pointing out in terms of his growth. I misunderstood your point initially and appreciate you clarifying that. I think though he was always a very good mid-range shooter and probably could have been taking 3's sooner had his teams wanted that. But he was so skilled in the post and his teams had little else in terms of offensvie creation. I guess I view this as a gradual growth rather than evidence of the kind of massive defensive impact change that's being suggested here.

And I definitely agree with the latter. It absolutely is part of why his defensive impact looks much better. Right, this is one of the things I always cite in talking about Dirk's defense. But again its part of why I don't attribute as much of the Bucks defensive growth to him and move some of that credit to Bud whose made much better use of his personnel.

As to the specifics about how he blocks shots and boxes out, I won't pretend to have watched a volume of his games sufficient to speak to massive changes in those areas. If you have then I'll defer to you.

I feel I can describe the disconnect by asking Spaceman this, how do you feel about prime Roy Hilbert's defense?

[Dr Spaceman]

Why does it matter when he started shooting 3s? He took 31 in the first 8 years of his career and has taken 1,222 in the last three. The point is you should not doubt his ability to change his game and the three point shooting is the most salient example. He could not shoot 3s coming in and all of a sudden is elite at it.



As far as coaching vs. playing on offensive rebounding, does it actually matter? He gets back on defense now and this makes him a more effective defensive player. This is literally all we’re judging here- what happens to a defense when a player is on the floor.

I agree it doesn't matter when. And I appreciate what you are pointing out in terms of his growth. I misunderstood your point initially and appreciate you clarifying that. I think though he was always a very good mid-range shooter and probably could have been taking 3's sooner had his teams wanted that. But he was so skilled in the post and his teams had little else in terms of offensvie creation. I guess I view this as a gradual growth rather than evidence of the kind of massive defensive impact change that's being suggested here.

And I definitely agree with the latter. It absolutely is part of why his defensive impact looks much better. Right, this is one of the things I always cite in talking about Dirk's defense. But again its part of why I don't attribute as much of the Bucks defensive growth to him and move some of that credit to Bud whose made much better use of his personnel.

As to the specifics about how he blocks shots and boxes out, I won't pretend to have watched a volume of his games sufficient to speak to massive changes in those areas. If you have then I'll defer to you.

I guess I just disagree that giving credit to a coach takes credit away from a player. Props to Kenny Atkinson for being forward-thinking enough to encourage that part of his game. He’s a great coach. But Lopez is the guy actually putting in the hours at the gym, and the 3 point renaissance he’s had is evidence that there’s something very special about his ability to adapt because there are few to no players who have made that radical a shift.

And if Bud takes credit for Brook’s improvement why should we not do the same for Giannis? The Bucks have been ranked 23rd, 19th, and 19th the last few years. It was obvious Giannis was talented but he wasn’t doing anything particularly special and it showed in the on/off stuff.

[Texas Chuck]

And if Bud takes credit for Brook’s improvement why should we not do the same for Giannis? T

Oh I definitely give Bud a lot of credit for the growth in Giannis as well. But I think his schemes are set up to take advantage of Giannis' unique abilities. I think Bud could plug a number of guys into the Lopez role and still have a very effective defense. Hard to plug hardly anyone into Giannis' and say the same.

And I freely admit my skepticism may be misplaced and I may be doing Lopez a disservice, but I just can't buy him as a top 3(or 5) DPOT candidate this year.

[E-Balla]

And the irony here is I like BroLo a lot more than most. Back when the Lakers traded Russell/Mozgov for him and everyone laughed at LA, I was saying not only did they dump a horrific contract, but they got back the better player. Props to Russell for improving this year, but Lopez has always been a very good player.

I mean they got the better player in the moment, but DLo was an obvious future star player. The man is the face of a franchise right now and he turned 23 just a month ago. That was always a clearly bad move.

[Texas Chuck]

And the irony here is I like BroLo a lot more than most. Back when the Lakers traded Russell/Mozgov for him and everyone laughed at LA, I was saying not only did they dump a horrific contract, but they got back the better player. Props to Russell for improving this year, but Lopez has always been a very good player.

I mean they got the better player in the moment, but DLo was an obvious future star player. The man is the face of a franchise right now and he turned 23 just a month ago. That was always a clearly bad move.

At time no way was Russell an obvious future star. He's not that now even. He was a terribly flawed player, who had burned bridges with teammates and had serious worth ethic and maturity questions.

Props to him for his development, but I don't think that happens if he stays in LA. And I definitely wasn't thinking future star at the time.

Props to you for seeing what I couldn't.

[Dr Spaceman]

And if Bud takes credit for Brook’s improvement why should we not do the same for Giannis? T

Oh I definitely give Bud a lot of credit for the growth in Giannis as well. But I think his schemes are set up to take advantage of Giannis' unique abilities. I think Bud could plug a number of guys into the Lopez role and still have a very effective defense. Hard to plug hardly anyone into Giannis' and say the same.

And I freely admit my skepticism may be misplaced and I may be doing Lopez a disservice, but I just can't buy him as a top 3(or 5) DPOT candidate this year.

I do very much understand where you’re coming from and if you believe there are a lot of players who could fill Lopez’s role it makes sense you’d be skeptical towards his true defensive impact. I’d ont believe that.

Perhaps st this point I could explain a theory I’ve had for a while about athletics. There’s a certain mind-body connection that certain players/athletes have that make them very quickly adaptable. It’s not about having diverse skills, per se, it’s more about being able to take information and immediately apply it in a game situation. Old school coaches will call these players “quick learners”. It’s not, strictly speaking, necessary to succeed as an athlete but it is a huge leg up and explains why some guys tend to peak much later in their careers.

A guy I see this with (and the reason I fell in love with him as a player) is James Harden. The changes he’s made to his game over the years have been absurd. Went from being assisted on about 60% of his threes to 10%, and now thrives on contested pull-up 3s and stepbacks and is one of the most prolific volume shooters ever. Went from being a wing-iso guy and secondary handler to a lead guard in a D’Antoni offense and almost doubling his assists per game. Went from having no in-between game to having the most dangerous floater in the league this year. Went from being a 0 defensively to legitimately one of the most effective post defenders in the entire league. And some of these changes have happened with only a summer of work.

Donovan Mitchell is another guy you see this with. You hear coaches say how they’d show him something on film and immediately he’d go out the next game and apply It. It’s why he’s shown such massive improvements in the second half of his seasons because he learns so quickly how people are trying to defend him.

Lebron is probably the most obvious example of what I’m talking about here. Al Horford is another great one.

There are other guys who don’t learn as well. Westbrook is an obvious one and is why he is now heavily on the downslope of his career when his peers are still in their primes. Durant as well to a lesser extent and it’s why he has never 100% fit in Golden State.

I think Lopez has this ability. He (and Bud) has essentially molded his defensive game after Marc Gasol, and Marc is not an easy player to emulate. The three point shooting is the best example, but he just strikes me as a guy who could immediately do pretty much anything a coach wanted from him and could put it together in a summer. The defensive shift has been dramatic, yes, but it is arguably not even the most dramatic shift his game has taken thus far in his career. This is my overarching point.

[E-Balla]

And the irony here is I like BroLo a lot more than most. Back when the Lakers traded Russell/Mozgov for him and everyone laughed at LA, I was saying not only did they dump a horrific contract, but they got back the better player. Props to Russell for improving this year, but Lopez has always been a very good player.

I mean they got the better player in the moment, but DLo was an obvious future star player. The man is the face of a franchise right now and he turned 23 just a month ago. That was always a clearly bad move.

At time no way was Russell an obvious future star. He's not that now even. He was a terribly flawed player, who had burned bridges with teammates and had serious worth ethic and maturity questions.

Props to him for his development, but I don't think that happens if he stays in LA. And I definitely wasn't thinking future star at the time.

Props to you for seeing what I couldn't.

Most people saw it, that's why we were laughing at the Lakers. Kid was transcendant in college showing off an amazing feel for the game, and had the type of game that would make him a late bloomer. Guys that rely more on their ability to fool defenders, find small cracks, use every bit of their body to trick defenders, etc. are usually late bloomers. Harden's PER at 20 and 21 was 14.0 and 16.4. Manu hit the league at 25 and had a 14.7 PER. Nash had only one above 14 PER prior to age 26.

[ardee]

MVP

1. James Harden
2. Giannis Antetokoumnpo
3. Nikola Jokic
4. Paul George
5. Damian Lillard

DPoY

1. Rudy Gobert
2. Giannis Antetokoumnpo
3. Myles Turner

6MOY

1. Domantas Sabonis
2. Montrez Harell
3. Lou Williams

MIP

1. Pascal Siakam
2. De'Aaron Fox
3. D'Angelo Russell

ROY

1. Luka Doncic
2. Trae Young
3. DeAndre Ayton

First Team All-NBA

Steph Curry
James Harden
Paul George
Giannis Antetokoumnpo
Joel Embiid

Second Team All-NBA

Russell Westbrook
Damian Lillard
Kevin Durant
Kawhi Leonard
Nikola Jokic

Third Team All-NBA

Kyrie Irving
Bradley Beal
LeBron James
Blake Griffin
Rudy Gobert

[HeartBreakKid]

I think Sabonis might place on my MIP vote as well as 6MOY


I can't help but feel that D'lo's MIP push has to do with the Nets record - in which case there might be people giving D'Lo too much credit for the Nets success. I don't really think of the Nets as "D'Lo's team", a lot of the players do their part.

[Outside]

I think Sabonis might place on my MIP vote as well as 6MOY


I can't help but feel that D'lo's MIP push has to do with the Nets record - in which case there might be people giving D'Lo too much credit for the Nets success. I don't really think of the Nets as "D'Lo's team", a lot of the players do their part.

Russell stepped up big time and took over as lead offensive player when Caris LaVert and Spencer Dinwiddie were out with injuries. He stepped up to the point that he was actually an all-star (in the East, but still), which no one saw coming.

The Nets are a feel-good story of a gang of guys all doing their part, but Russell's improvement with LaVert and Dinwiddie out was huge for them.

[Doctor MJ]

Hey y'all.

Not paying as much attention to basketball as I did in the past but will start posting more over the post-season.

Looking forward toward the POY:

To me the big candidates are the 3 most noisy MVP candidates (Giannis, Harden, & PG) plus the Warrior duo (Durant & Curry). That could change in myriad ways of course, but speaking to those 5:

For the record Giannis would be my pick for MVP and I think it makes sense to see him as the POY favorite on that alone. His path to keeping that lead is probably as simple as just living up to the #1 seed. if the Bucks don't make the finals, Giannis probably doesn't win it. If they do, the award is probably his.

Harden would be a worthy MVP in a typical year, but I think Harden's going to be in a rough place given that the Rockets will almost certainly exit in the 2nd round, and that when that happens he probably won't be putting up incredible scoring numbers. I could easily see him dropping to 4th or 5th on people's POY ballots.

Paul George ended up not really being a serious MVP candidate, but then a miracle happened and now OKC seems to have a good shot at the WCF again. If George really looks good in the playoffs and he leads OKC to a respectable WCF showing, he'll be a solid POY candidate.

With LeBron awkwardly absent from the fold this year, there's clearly a path toward either Durant or Curry taking the top spot. Either one of them playing in top form may well make Giannis look a bit green still, and if that happens, i think we'll feel good about picking someone on the team that's won 4 times in 5 years.

Also:

I thought Harden was the clear cut OPOY of the regular season. Less vulnerable to a crash than his POY candidacy, but still vulnerable.

DPOY I feel like I don't know enough to have an opinion. I find myself thinking though that the range of Giannis as a defender is more the ideal now than Gobert's more traditional monster in the middle.

[HeartBreakKid]

I think Sabonis might place on my MIP vote as well as 6MOY


I can't help but feel that D'lo's MIP push has to do with the Nets record - in which case there might be people giving D'Lo too much credit for the Nets success. I don't really think of the Nets as "D'Lo's team", a lot of the players do their part.

Russell stepped up big time and took over as lead offensive player when Caris LaVert and Spencer Dinwiddie were out with injuries. He stepped up to the point that he was actually an all-star (in the East, but still), which no one saw coming.

The Nets are a feel-good story of a gang of guys all doing their part, but Russell's improvement with LaVert and Dinwiddie out was huge for them.

Russell made an all-star team but he is not an all-star caliber player, so I am not sure if that is really that relevant.

[Outside]

I think Sabonis might place on my MIP vote as well as 6MOY


I can't help but feel that D'lo's MIP push has to do with the Nets record - in which case there might be people giving D'Lo too much credit for the Nets success. I don't really think of the Nets as "D'Lo's team", a lot of the players do their part.

Russell stepped up big time and took over as lead offensive player when Caris LaVert and Spencer Dinwiddie were out with injuries. He stepped up to the point that he was actually an all-star (in the East, but still), which no one saw coming.

The Nets are a feel-good story of a gang of guys all doing their part, but Russell's improvement with LaVert and Dinwiddie out was huge for them.

Russell made an all-star team but he is not an all-star caliber player, so I am not sure if that is really that relevant.

Yes, "all-star in the East" is a qualifier, but I pointed that out, and it's recognition of him elevating his game. You're also ignoring the other point I made.

You don't have to vote for him -- heck, I probably would vote others over him -- but he has a case.

[HeartBreakKid]

Russell stepped up big time and took over as lead offensive player when Caris LaVert and Spencer Dinwiddie were out with injuries. He stepped up to the point that he was actually an all-star (in the East, but still), which no one saw coming.

The Nets are a feel-good story of a gang of guys all doing their part, but Russell's improvement with LaVert and Dinwiddie out was huge for them.

Russell made an all-star team but he is not an all-star caliber player, so I am not sure if that is really that relevant.

Yes, "all-star in the East" is a qualifier, but I pointed that out, and it's recognition of him elevating his game. You're also ignoring the other point I made.

You don't have to vote for him -- heck, I probably would vote others over him -- but he has a case.

I mean yes, I did ignore them because I did not think it was really worth it to go back and forth, but if you want to know my opinion -

Obviously, an ensemble team will do fine if players like Levert or Dinwiddie get hurt because none of them are really that great by themselves - I never thought that their season was done because someone like Levert hurt their knee (the media does overrate Levert so maybe this is where the hype comes from), so again, I really don't allocate the bulk of the Nets credit to D'lo - and most of D'los argument comes from the success of the Nets from what I gather.

Pretty much all the things D'Lo does now, he was on track to doing - I'm not sure where the quantum leap in his abilities are?

[Colbinii]

I think Sabonis might place on my MIP vote as well as 6MOY


I can't help but feel that D'lo's MIP push has to do with the Nets record - in which case there might be people giving D'Lo too much credit for the Nets success. I don't really think of the Nets as "D'Lo's team", a lot of the players do their part.

Russell stepped up big time and took over as lead offensive player when Caris LaVert and Spencer Dinwiddie were out with injuries. He stepped up to the point that he was actually an all-star (in the East, but still), which no one saw coming.

The Nets are a feel-good story of a gang of guys all doing their part, but Russell's improvement with LaVert and Dinwiddie out was huge for them.

Russell made an all-star team but he is not an all-star caliber player, so I am not sure if that is really that relevant.

What is your definition of allstar caliber?

D-Lo put up 21/7/4 and was the closer of the 6th seed out East. That, without digging any deeper, looks like an all-star, no?

If we take a closer look we see D-Lo was in charge of a large chunk of the offense in BKN [31.9 USG%, 19.4 PER, 3.9 OBPM]. That is the likes of a solid offensive player.

I'm not going to stick my head out and claim D-Lo deserves all-NBA

This guy may

but the point stands D-Lo was a solid player and clearly of all-star caliber.

sidetrack, do you think Lowry is allstar caliber?

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