GOAT TEAM TOURNAMENT (round 2) #4 2017 Golden State Warriors v. #5 1992 Chicago Bulls

[penbeast0]

Each player will be considered to be as dominant against his opponents as he was the year that he played (ie. if you are just going to say the more modern team wins, don't bother to participate). And EACH MATCHUP WILL FEATURE THE RULES, REFEREES, AND EQUIPMENT OF THE OLDER TEAM. This doesn't mean that Steph Curry will be called for carrying each time he tries to dribble, just assume that his handle is proportionately as good relative to the era as it is relative to his own. So, in 65, if you think he has the best handle in today's league, you can assume he has the best handle of that era; if he's roughly average for starting PGs of today's league in terms of that one aspect, you can assume he is roughly average for starting PGs of that era. This hopefully will eliminate a bit of the recency bias. Health is as it was, if a player was 75% during the playoffs that year, assume he's only 75% now, this is a playoff tournament, not a regular season seeding.

One last thing. VOTES WITHOUT ANALYSIS (or with what in my personal subject opinion is stupid analysis) WONT BE COUNTED.

2017 Golden State Warriors
Stephon Curry
Klay Thompson
Kevin Durant
Draymond Green
(Zaza Pachulia)

Andre Iguolada
David West
Shaun Livingston
Ian Clark
Patrick McCay

How well would the team that epitomizes the modern 4/5 out offense do with 1990s defense and refs? They were the top ranked offense in the NBA but also the 2nd ranked defense. They have great players 1-4 and Iggy was a terrific sixth man, playing almost twice the minutes of nominal starters Zaza Pachulia. They also go deeper and more frequently to their bench than Chicago did.

1992 Chicago Bulls

PG John Paxson
SG Michael Jordan
SF Scottie Pippen
PF Horace Grant
C Bill Cartwright

G BJ Armstrong
F/C Scott Williams

The most efficient offensive team in the NBA and a pretty good defense, ranking 4th/27. Jordan and Pippen are the main threats, everyone else is secondary. The whole team pretty much ignored the 3 with no player averaging 2 3PA in a game, relying on slashing and pull up midrange jumpers. (They did have 3 point specialist Craig Hodges off the bench but he only played about 8mpg during the playoffs.)

Using 1992 refs and rules, who would win a 7 game series?

[JordansBulls]

Considering we are using 1992 refs and rules I don't see how the Bulls lose this series especially considering they are the perfect matchup for the 2017 Warriors. They have the wings and guards and bigs to match up perfectly with them especially on defense. Also the 1992 Bulls had a bunch of 3 point shooters as well just didn't shoot the 3 at that same volume. You literally had a guy on the Bulls team to hit 25 3's in a row in the 3 pt contest. I think it could go 7 with the Bulls winning.

[TheGOATRises007]

Who has homecourt?

[iggymcfrack]

Gotta go with Warriors. They were the GOAT postseason team. Rolled through Portland, Utah, San Antonio, and Cleveland going 16-1 with the only loss coming after the Finals were already decided in a game with questionable refereeing. They outscored the opposition by 13.5 points per game.

The Bulls were much less dominant. They got taken to 7 by the Knicks, to 6 by the Cavs, and to 6 by the Blazers. Their average postseason margin of victory was only 6.2 points, less than half of Golden State’s.

And any matchup issues would favor Golden State if anything. Phil Jackson was still coaching his team to intentionally give up corner 3s as late as the 2008 Finals because he didn’t realize they were a good shot. There’s no way he’d build a defense that could handle the Warriors’ shooting. He’d stubbornly stick with two bigs when Golden State went small and he’d get crucified for it. Ws in 5.

[JordansBulls]

Gotta go with Warriors. They were the GOAT postseason team. Rolled through Portland, Utah, San Antonio, and Cleveland going 16-1 with the only loss coming after the Finals were already decided in a game with questionable refereeing. They outscored the opposition by 13.5 points per game.

The Bulls were much less dominant. They got taken to 7 by the Knicks, to 6 by the Cavs, and to 6 by the Blazers. Their average postseason margin of victory was only 6.2 points, less than half of Golden State’s.

And any matchup issues would favor Golden State if anything. Phil Jackson was still coaching his team to intentionally give up corner 3s as late as the 2008 Finals because he didn’t realize they were a good shot. There’s no way he’d build a defense that could handle the Warriors’ shooting. He’d stubbornly stick with two bigs when Golden State went small and he’d get crucified for it. Ws in 5.

They rolled thru San Antonio because Kawhi got injured. Spurs were up 25 when Kawhi was in the game. Now imagine having a Jordan and Pippen on the squad having to defend you. Meaning Pippen on Durant and MJ on Curry in 1992. That is a big different. A lot more agile guys to chase you around. Bulls were consistent on defense and were good on offense as well. Wasn't like they were one or the other. Spurs in 2017 was more defense and Cavs more offense. Bulls were both. Also 1992 which is more physical so the game is much more slowed down. Warriors not getting to offense if fouling on every play.

[iggymcfrack]

Gotta go with Warriors. They were the GOAT postseason team. Rolled through Portland, Utah, San Antonio, and Cleveland going 16-1 with the only loss coming after the Finals were already decided in a game with questionable refereeing. They outscored the opposition by 13.5 points per game.

The Bulls were much less dominant. They got taken to 7 by the Knicks, to 6 by the Cavs, and to 6 by the Blazers. Their average postseason margin of victory was only 6.2 points, less than half of Golden State’s.

And any matchup issues would favor Golden State if anything. Phil Jackson was still coaching his team to intentionally give up corner 3s as late as the 2008 Finals because he didn’t realize they were a good shot. There’s no way he’d build a defense that could handle the Warriors’ shooting. He’d stubbornly stick with two bigs when Golden State went small and he’d get crucified for it. Ws in 5.

They rolled thru San Antonio because Kawhi got injured. Spurs were up 25 when Kawhi was in the game. Now imagine having a Jordan and Pippen on the squad having to defend you. Meaning Pippen on Durant and MJ on Curry in 1992. That is a big different. A lot more agile guys to chase you around. Bulls were consistent on defense and were good on offense as well. Wasn't like they were one or the other. Spurs in 2017 was more defense and Cavs more offense. Bulls were both. Also 1992 which is more physical so the game is much more slowed down. Warriors not getting to offense if fouling on every play.

I never get this idea that physical play would hurt perimeter oriented 3-point shooting teams. Physicality is an issue near the rim. If anything, it would allow the Warriors to be more physical defending at the rim while on the other end, the Bulls would still be giving up open 30-footers where the rules are no issue whatsoever.

[JordansBulls]

Gotta go with Warriors. They were the GOAT postseason team. Rolled through Portland, Utah, San Antonio, and Cleveland going 16-1 with the only loss coming after the Finals were already decided in a game with questionable refereeing. They outscored the opposition by 13.5 points per game.

The Bulls were much less dominant. They got taken to 7 by the Knicks, to 6 by the Cavs, and to 6 by the Blazers. Their average postseason margin of victory was only 6.2 points, less than half of Golden State’s.

And any matchup issues would favor Golden State if anything. Phil Jackson was still coaching his team to intentionally give up corner 3s as late as the 2008 Finals because he didn’t realize they were a good shot. There’s no way he’d build a defense that could handle the Warriors’ shooting. He’d stubbornly stick with two bigs when Golden State went small and he’d get crucified for it. Ws in 5.

They rolled thru San Antonio because Kawhi got injured. Spurs were up 25 when Kawhi was in the game. Now imagine having a Jordan and Pippen on the squad having to defend you. Meaning Pippen on Durant and MJ on Curry in 1992. That is a big different. A lot more agile guys to chase you around. Bulls were consistent on defense and were good on offense as well. Wasn't like they were one or the other. Spurs in 2017 was more defense and Cavs more offense. Bulls were both. Also 1992 which is more physical so the game is much more slowed down. Warriors not getting to offense if fouling on every play.

I never get this idea that physical play would hurt perimeter oriented 3-point shooting teams. Physicality is an issue near the rim. If anything, it would allow the Warriors to be more physical defending at the rim while on the other end, the Bulls would still be giving up open 30-footers where the rules are no issue whatsoever.

The more physical you are the tougher it is to make shots. No other teams has the wings to defend the Warriors like the the 1992 Bulls/1996 Bulls would have. That is what changes things.

[kendogg]

Curry would get bullied more pre-handcheck rule and have less ability to step back with no gather step. He'd still be outstanding, but I think Jordan could actually do a pretty good job of slowing down Curry a bit. Question is could Jordan do that and carry the Bulls on offense. Perhaps. I think Pippen could defend Durant as well as anyone. The Warriors would not roll over the Bulls. The Bulls have the best player on either team as well as #4 in Pippen, but the Warriors have #2 and #3 and #5, and the rest are somewhere between solid role player and borderline star.

It would be a slog, but one thing in the Warriors favor is they don't have to task their top 2 scorers with defending Jordan or Pippen. Though Jordan and Pippen probably wouldn't be guarding them all game either...they'd give them a few different looks. I think Jordan and Pippen both have better stamina than Durant for sure so that helps the Bulls. Curry I think can challenge them but he has durability concerns and wouldn't like the extra contact on his drives, where as Jordan and Pippen are quite used to it. Klay Thompson has never had to defend a guy like Jordan, who was a very physical player and only Bird was a more effective trash talker IMO. I think due to playing in 1992 this weakens the Warriors who might otherwise argue more sheer star power. Though I think Pippen is honestly underrated in his scoring ability. He's not quite as good as Durant but really the only significant edge Durant has offensively is in shooting. Pippen is better at a couple things as well (passing, finishing)

I don't know who would win though. This is much harder than comparing 2 players from different eras, which is already hard enough. I think it would be very close.

[SpreeS]

CHI had the best OFF and 4th DEF in 92, GSW had 1st and 2nd in 2016. CHI had 15-7 record in PO, GSW 16-1. GSW had also deeper team and more talent. And the most important thing are matchups. CHI dont have answer for GSW Hampton 5. Grant/Pippen/Jordan/BJA/Paxon cant defend Green/ KD/Iggy/Klay/Curry. MJ and SP must defend Curry and KD and be the main options on offense. GSW could put Green/Iggy/Klay on the best 3 CHI players and hide Curry and KD on defense and its huge advantage for GSW. Paxon, Hodges and BJA would have huge problems with Klay, Iggy, Livingston and Curry then MJ would be on other players or on bench. Also KD/Iggy on Pippen and Klay/Iggy on Jordan is very good rotation that would make damage to bulls offense. I pick GSW in 6

[penbeast0]

GS has the higher SRS, therefore the higher seed and home court.

[Jaivl]

Gotta go with Warriors. They were the GOAT postseason team. Rolled through Portland, Utah, San Antonio, and Cleveland going 16-1 with the only loss coming after the Finals were already decided in a game with questionable refereeing. They outscored the opposition by 13.5 points per game.

The Bulls were much less dominant. They got taken to 7 by the Knicks, to 6 by the Cavs, and to 6 by the Blazers. Their average postseason margin of victory was only 6.2 points, less than half of Golden State’s.

And any matchup issues would favor Golden State if anything. Phil Jackson was still coaching his team to intentionally give up corner 3s as late as the 2008 Finals because he didn’t realize they were a good shot. There’s no way he’d build a defense that could handle the Warriors’ shooting. He’d stubbornly stick with two bigs when Golden State went small and he’d get crucified for it. Ws in 5.

They rolled thru San Antonio because Kawhi got injured. Spurs were up 25 when Kawhi was in the game. Now imagine having a Jordan and Pippen on the squad having to defend you. Meaning Pippen on Durant and MJ on Curry in 1992. That is a big different. A lot more agile guys to chase you around. Bulls were consistent on defense and were good on offense as well. Wasn't like they were one or the other. Spurs in 2017 was more defense and Cavs more offense. Bulls were both. Also 1992 which is more physical so the game is much more slowed down. Warriors not getting to offense if fouling on every play.

You really need Jordan as a creator here. Tiring him running around screens all day to try to contest Curry (?) could be catastrophic.

[AdagioPace]

key matchup:

Will Perdue vs Zaza


kidding aside Bulls are still 4 years removed from having the ideal starting lineup to face the Warriors.
edit:(I'm not voting...just a short remark)

[NbaAllDay]

The underrated factor is Jordan and Pippen have never played a 7 game series where they had to defend players as elite on offense as Curry and Durant. If you were to suggest that they could play the majority defensive load and still be as productive offensively I'd say its highly unlikely. Especially Jordan if he running around screens on Curry, I don't see him being able keep up with how much they need him offensively.

If you take Jordan off him, they dont have a heap to keep up.

As amazing as Pippen was defensively, it's near impossible to stop Durant offensively, his too tall and he is just that good. Could he slow him a bit? Sure. Enough to make a difference? Doubt it.

The sheer offensive threat of GSW cant be matched, and their best defense comes from players who aren't needed offensively so the balance is maintained regardless of the other teams offense capability.

I cant say that for the Bulls.


GSW in 6

[kendogg]

I feel like nobody is even considering the rule changes, which affect Curry by a considerable amount. Durant not as much but he'd get bodied by Pippen and Grant who are much stronger than him and can handcheck him all day. Though they can both still score using similar tricks to Reggie Miller and are essentially in the 92 era more athletic versions of Reggie to some extent. But without a doubt, everyone on the Warriors shoots a lower percentage in 92, not even factoring in the matchups, and you can argue that Jordan and Pippen are the respective best defenders at guard and forward. I am not completely buying that Curry and Durant get a free pass on defense either. Paxson can run Curry off screens just as much as Curry can do it to him. Durant I think would be challenged by the more physical prime Horace and Pippen (he'd end up guarding him some more than likely). Also the Bulls are just too big for the Warriors to play small full time. Meaning they need to give more minutes to less talented big men.

[trex_8063]

I'm going with the Warriors as well. Excellent defensive team (and I actually think Thompson would do just about as good on Jordan as anyone reasonably can, outside of maybe a Tony Allen type), and just too much scoring potential in their starting line-up, nice depth, who just rolled thru everything the rest of the league had to offer in '17.

Someone has mentioned Jordan as a foil for Curry, though another mentioned this will be a potentially tiring and distracting task for Jordan (mitigating his offense). And sure, Pippen (and/or occasionally Grant) could be a nice cover for Durant; but that still leaves Paxson or Armstrong trying to contain the much taller Klay Thompson (and I don't think that will work out well).
The '96 Bulls would make this more interesting, where you have Jordan, Pippen, and Ron Harper----all very good and lengthy perimeter defenders-----and the scoring depth with the emergence of Toni Kukoc.

Vote: '17 Warriors

[pandrade83]

Chicago advantages/how they defend the Warriors

-MJ is probably the best player in the series
-Rules allow for more physical defense
-Elite non-center defenders; I would put Grant on KD, Pippen on Steph & MJ on Klay; hide Paxson/BJ/Hodges/whatever "center" is in on other players. If I get beat this way, so be it.

GSW advantages:
-Strict man to man defense rules make spacing easier
-More versatile offense
-better defense relative to era
-length - particularly in lineups without a traditional center unless Chicago plays with two bigs which I don't think is a great idea.
-Spacing
-More high quality players.

I think the Warriors' advantages are more impactful than Chicago's; until the Warriors/YT era I thought '92 Chicago was the best squad I had ever seen. Chicago will not go quietly, but I take the Warriors in 7 & I do believe they are the GOAT Team.

[Jiminy Glick]

The Warriors are just too finesse in my opinion. Iguodala was still a quality player in 2017 and I like the bench of the Warriors. Curry, Thompson, Iguodala, Green, and Durant is more potent scoring than what the Bulls have. I vote the Warriors, the Blazers took the Bulls to 6 games.

[JordansBulls]

Just remember the Spurs blew out the Warriors twice that year by 20+ and was up 25 in game 1 of the WCF until Kawhi got injured. Spurs in no way shape or form as finesse as the Bulls were and were dominating the Warriors for the most part.

[Samurai]

This is very close to me and I think it largely comes down to how many 3's the Dubs will take. In 2017 the Dubs attempted 2,562 3's. In 92, Milwaukee led the league attempting 1,005, which was about 62% more than league average that year. I am making an assumption that Kerr will recognize that his shooters are special and that the Dubs might attempt 50% more than the league leading Bucks, which would give them about 1,500 attempts. Still over 1,000 less attempts than in 2017 but I think that is feasible. Assuming the Dubs still make 38% of their 3's, I think that is just enough to give the Warriors the edge in a 7 game series.

Obviously no one stops Jordan, but I feel that the combination of Iguodala and Klay can make MJ work harder for his points than he is used to. He will still get his points, but the extra energy expended tends to show up more on defense than offense. As great as MJ was on defense, I don't think he will be used to the constant off-ball running that both Klay and Curry typically do. I wouldn't be suprised if MJ's tank is either on empty late in the game or he has given up too many open jumpshots to the GSW shooters running off (moving) screens in the first 3 quarters.

Unlike some of the other teams in this tournament, the Bulls don't have a dominant center that could exploit the one weak spot in GSW's starting lineup. That also works against the Bulls. The Bulls also don't have Rodman yet, who could also exploit the weakness the Warriors have shown against great offensive rebounders.

Since game 7 would be played in Oakland, albeit under 92 rules/conditions, I vote for the Warriors winning in 7 games.

[iggymcfrack]

Just remember the Spurs blew out the Warriors twice that year by 20+ and was up 25 in game 1 of the WCF until Kawhi got injured. Spurs in no way shape or form as finesse as the Bulls were and were dominating the Warriors for the most part.

You really trying to get into individual regular season matchups when the Warriors had won 73 games the year before and couldn’t give two **** about the regular season? The Bulls got taken to 7 games by a Knicks team with the 2nd ranked defense and the 12th ranked offense. The Warriors had the 2nd ranked defense and one of the best offenses of all-time. They’d crush this matchup.