2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[HeartBreakKid]

Russell stepped up big time and took over as lead offensive player when Caris LaVert and Spencer Dinwiddie were out with injuries. He stepped up to the point that he was actually an all-star (in the East, but still), which no one saw coming.

The Nets are a feel-good story of a gang of guys all doing their part, but Russell's improvement with LaVert and Dinwiddie out was huge for them.

Russell made an all-star team but he is not an all-star caliber player, so I am not sure if that is really that relevant.

What is your definition of allstar caliber?

D-Lo put up 21/7/4 and was the closer of the 6th seed out East. That, without digging any deeper, looks like an all-star, no?

If we take a closer look we see D-Lo was in charge of a large chunk of the offense in BKN [31.9 USG%, 19.4 PER, 3.9 OBPM]. That is the likes of a solid offensive player.

I'm not going to stick my head out and claim D-Lo deserves all-NBA

This guy may

but the point stands D-Lo was a solid player and clearly of all-star caliber.

sidetrack, do you think Lowry is allstar caliber?

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No, averaging 21 points on 19 shots is not really something I would say is all-star caliber. He would not be an all-star on the west, he made the all-star team because the East has to select someone, but even then, there are better players than him who did not make the all-star team in the East like Siakham and Horford. Is he that much better than someone like Aaron Gordon? Malcolm Brogdon? Andre Drummond? Sabonis? - maybe I am under estimating him and he is better than them, but I don't think he's like a God among them and they're not all-star caliber players.

Kyle Lowry was a better player than D'lo, especially around the time of the all-star selection, and if you're going to just compare their boxscore stats, then obviously Kyle Lowry doesn't look special.

An all-star caliber player in an ideal league where the conferences are balanced, would be a top 24ish player. D'Lo is not that caliber, so his all-star selection does not mean much to me.


He seems like the census #2 pick for MIP, and I am just not sure if he really deserves it or he is riding a narrative because people don't care enough about MIP to really look into it. I just feel like based on what we've seen from D'lo he was bound to have a season like this, and this season isn't really what I would necessarily call spectacular, I never thought he was some lost prospect with zero potential.

[E-Balla]

Russell stepped up big time and took over as lead offensive player when Caris LaVert and Spencer Dinwiddie were out with injuries. He stepped up to the point that he was actually an all-star (in the East, but still), which no one saw coming.

The Nets are a feel-good story of a gang of guys all doing their part, but Russell's improvement with LaVert and Dinwiddie out was huge for them.

Russell made an all-star team but he is not an all-star caliber player, so I am not sure if that is really that relevant.

What is your definition of allstar caliber?

D-Lo put up 21/7/4 and was the closer of the 6th seed out East. That, without digging any deeper, looks like an all-star, no?

If we take a closer look we see D-Lo was in charge of a large chunk of the offense in BKN [31.9 USG%, 19.4 PER, 3.9 OBPM]. That is the likes of a solid offensive player.

I'm not going to stick my head out and claim D-Lo deserves all-NBA

This guy may

but the point stands D-Lo was a solid player and clearly of all-star caliber.

sidetrack, do you think Lowry is allstar caliber?

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Yeah I'd never say he was All-NBA caliber. He may become All-NBA caliber one day though.

[therealbig3]

Is Brook Lopez really playing THAT much differently as a defender than when he was with the Nets? He was always a shot blocker and was always great at boxing out and getting good defensive rebounding position, even if he wasn't the one grabbing the rebounds. He was still considered an awful defender, because he was too slow and plodding to effectively defend the PnR and the Nets did not have the defensive personnel to cover for him.

The Bucks do have the defensive personnel though. How does that suddenly turn Lopez from one of the worst defensive players in the league into one of the best? It's his team that covers for his weaknesses. Even if his defensive IQ did get better, his physical limitations are extremely real, and it's the same reason why I find Gobert to be an overrated defender. You just have to be able to MOVE out there, and Lopez and Gobert are just slower guys that can (and do) get abused in the PnR. We've seen it time and time again.

Classic case of results-oriented thinking imo. Lopez didn't go from a bad defender into a great one in one season based off personal improvement alone (and I doubt something all of a sudden started clicking for him as an individual at age 30 in his 11th season, JUST when he went to a team with great defensive personnel and great coaching).

Just makes me wonder if people really are doing their due diligence and really are able to separate him from his team context, or if they even realized what his strengths and weaknesses were when he was on the Nets and Lakers. Maybe he was branded as a poor defender unfairly before this year, when clearly, he's had defensive abilities that could be an asset if in the right situation, and maybe he's being branded as an elite defender unfairly this year, when clearly, he has defensive limitations that can also be a big liability when not in an ideal situation (and even in an ideal situation, good teams will exploit any and all weaknesses, which means we could very easily see Lopez be a problem for the Bucks in this playoff run at some point).

[therealbig3]

Lopez routinely boxed out on the defensive glass in Brooklyn, and Brooklyn's DRB% always got better when he was on the court...saying he didn't box out before this year is false. He was a net positive when it came to defensive rebounding and rim protection in Brooklyn too. His major problem was his mobility, slow reaction time, and he just doesn't have the natural instincts when it comes to being able to predict where the ball is going to be or how it's going to bounce which also plays into what is perceived as slow reaction time.

Those are still issues with him. He's in a much better situation in terms of coaching and defensive personnel around him, but that really shouldn't change our opinions of him as a defender this much. His improvement mostly doesn't have anything to do with him.

[E-Balla]

Lopez routinely boxed out on the defensive glass in Brooklyn, and Brooklyn's DRB% always got better when he was on the court...saying he didn't box out before this year is false. He was a net positive when it came to defensive rebounding and rim protection in Brooklyn too. His major problem was his mobility, slow reaction time, and he just doesn't have the natural instincts when it comes to being able to predict where the ball is going to be or how it's going to bounce which also plays into what is perceived as slow reaction time.

Those are still issues with him. He's in a much better situation in terms of coaching and defensive personnel around him, but that really shouldn't change our opinions of him as a defender this much. His improvement mostly doesn't have anything to do with him.

Brook Lopez's DRB on/off on the Nets.

09: +6.2
10: +2.8
11: +3.2
13: +3.4
15: +1.1
16: +7.7
17: +3.9

19: +3.5

So the raw on/off hasn't improved. The main difference is that the Bucks are the 2nd best rebounding team in the league. The Nets ranked 14th, 27th, 15th, 27th (he was injured), 14th, 26th (injury again), 19th, 19th, and 22nd.

All this said I still think he's improved a bit, but maybe I should've noticed before, he's always been elite on the glass even before LA. I did always notice his defense overall was good but I rate rim protecting highly.

[Colbinii]

Lopez routinely boxed out on the defensive glass in Brooklyn, and Brooklyn's DRB% always got better when he was on the court...saying he didn't box out before this year is false. He was a net positive when it came to defensive rebounding and rim protection in Brooklyn too. His major problem was his mobility, slow reaction time, and he just doesn't have the natural instincts when it comes to being able to predict where the ball is going to be or how it's going to bounce which also plays into what is perceived as slow reaction time.

Those are still issues with him. He's in a much better situation in terms of coaching and defensive personnel around him, but that really shouldn't change our opinions of him as a defender this much. His improvement mostly doesn't have anything to do with him.

Brook Lopez's DRB on/off on the Nets.

09: +6.2
10: +2.8
11: +3.2
13: +3.4
15: +1.1
16: +7.7
17: +3.9

19: +3.5

So the raw on/off hasn't improved. The main difference is that the Bucks are the 2nd best rebounding team in the league. The Nets ranked 14th, 27th, 15th, 27th (he was injured), 14th, 26th (injury again), 19th, 19th, and 22nd.

All this said I still think he's improved a bit, but maybe I should've noticed before, he's always been elite on the glass even before LA. I did always notice his defense overall was good but I rate rim protecting highly.

Lopez was always good at team rebounding. I remember threads here when I first joined talking about how he was a bad rebounder because he had low rebounding numbers, but that myth was quickly debunked.

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[AussieBuck]

Is Brook Lopez really playing THAT much differently as a defender than when he was with the Nets? He was always a shot blocker and was always great at boxing out and getting good defensive rebounding position, even if he wasn't the one grabbing the rebounds. He was still considered an awful defender, because he was too slow and plodding to effectively defend the PnR and the Nets did not have the defensive personnel to cover for him.

The Bucks do have the defensive personnel though. How does that suddenly turn Lopez from one of the worst defensive players in the league into one of the best? It's his team that covers for his weaknesses. Even if his defensive IQ did get better, his physical limitations are extremely real, and it's the same reason why I find Gobert to be an overrated defender. You just have to be able to MOVE out there, and Lopez and Gobert are just slower guys that can (and do) get abused in the PnR. We've seen it time and time again.

Classic case of results-oriented thinking imo. Lopez didn't go from a bad defender into a great one in one season based off personal improvement alone (and I doubt something all of a sudden started clicking for him as an individual at age 30 in his 11th season, JUST when he went to a team with great defensive personnel and great coaching).

Just makes me wonder if people really are doing their due diligence and really are able to separate him from his team context, or if they even realized what his strengths and weaknesses were when he was on the Nets and Lakers. Maybe he was branded as a poor defender unfairly before this year, when clearly, he's had defensive abilities that could be an asset if in the right situation, and maybe he's being branded as an elite defender unfairly this year, when clearly, he has defensive limitations that can also be a big liability when not in an ideal situation (and even in an ideal situation, good teams will exploit any and all weaknesses, which means we could very easily see Lopez be a problem for the Bucks in this playoff run at some point).

Giannis can help on pick and rolls without giving up the corner three most times plus we have Bledsoe chasing dudes down from behind. Bud does a great job catering pick and roll coverages to his bigs. There are still times where Lopez gets played off the court but not as many as there would be on other teams.

Lopez was fine playing against Houston against a lot of pick and roll. He managed more than his regular minutes and we won both. Not as confident in him against the Warriors.

[ShotCreator]

This has become fun to me now.

What a shame one of Curry/Harden will see a second round knockout.

Those are the leagues two best players, comfortably imo but Giannis has strengths good enough to narrow the gap and have as good if a season if he has some crazy high motor series to get out of the East.

[ardee]

Kawhi, Durant and Jokic have been absolutely slaughtering it in the Playoffs so far. All 3 could be serious top 5 candidates if they keep this up.

Let's see if Giannis and Harden turn it on a bit more in round 2.

[The-Power]

Kawhi, Durant and Jokic have been absolutely slaughtering it in the Playoffs so far. All 3 could be serious top 5 candidates if they keep this up.

Let's see if Giannis and Harden turn it on a bit more in round 2.

Giannis and Harden had very different first rounds. Giannis was not as good as he can be but I am not sure why some people seem to think that he was struggling or even playing noticeably subpar.

[AussieBuck]

Kawhi, Durant and Jokic have been absolutely slaughtering it in the Playoffs so far. All 3 could be serious top 5 candidates if they keep this up.

Let's see if Giannis and Harden turn it on a bit more in round 2.

Giannis and Harden had very different first rounds. Giannis was not as good as he can be but I am not sure why some people seem to think that he was struggling or even playing noticeably subpar.

Turned up the intensity spectacularly in game 4 when they were behind in the 3rd quarter otherwise it was a dull series for everyone involved. I guess out of sight, out of mind.

[HeartBreakKid]

I haven't come across much criticism of Giannis for his series against the Pistons. He did what he was supposed to do.

[ardee]

Kawhi, Durant and Jokic have been absolutely slaughtering it in the Playoffs so far. All 3 could be serious top 5 candidates if they keep this up.

Let's see if Giannis and Harden turn it on a bit more in round 2.

Giannis and Harden had very different first rounds. Giannis was not as good as he can be but I am not sure why some people seem to think that he was struggling or even playing noticeably subpar.

Turned up the intensity spectacularly in game 4 when they were behind in the 3rd quarter otherwise it was a dull series for everyone involved. I guess out of sight, out of mind.

I think that might be the most lopsided first round series I can remember. Bucks' MOV was 23.8... I guess that's what happens when the eighth seed has the only reason they made the Playoffs in the first place get injured.

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[ardee]

I haven't come across much criticism of Giannis for his series against the Pistons. He did what he was supposed to do.

Yeah he was fine but others have been spectacular. His RS edge is too great to matter after one series but he'll need to crank it up to maintain his lead over guys like Kawhi.

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[AussieBuck]

Giannis and Harden had very different first rounds. Giannis was not as good as he can be but I am not sure why some people seem to think that he was struggling or even playing noticeably subpar.

Turned up the intensity spectacularly in game 4 when they were behind in the 3rd quarter otherwise it was a dull series for everyone involved. I guess out of sight, out of mind.

I think that might be the most lopsided first round series I can remember. Bucks' MOV was 23.8... I guess that's what happens when the eighth seed has the only reason they made the Playoffs in the first place get injured.

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Didn't seem paticularly different to the Jennings/Monta vs big three Miami series we had a few years ago. Not going to look up the scores though, I have no interest in reliving any of that era again.

[ardee]

Turned up the intensity spectacularly in game 4 when they were behind in the 3rd quarter otherwise it was a dull series for everyone involved. I guess out of sight, out of mind.

I think that might be the most lopsided first round series I can remember. Bucks' MOV was 23.8... I guess that's what happens when the eighth seed has the only reason they made the Playoffs in the first place get injured.

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Didn't seem paticularly different to the Jennings/Monta vs big three Miami series we had a few years ago. Not going to look up the scores though, I have no interest in reliving any of that era again.

Only a +14.7 MOV. Not even close.

This one probably isn't the biggest but it's close... the 2001 Lakers-Spurs sweep ended with a 22.2 MOV. Given the Spurs were an 8 SRS team I don't think that can be topped.

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[No-more-rings]

Most had Harden either 1st or 2nd in the regular season, can you guys see him possibly falling out of the top 5 if he doesn't put up more of a fight in this series?

And his all around numbers plummeted from the regular season:

30.6 PER down to 22.6
61.6 ts% down to 53.9
11.7 BPM down to 7.5
36.1 ppg down to 29

Assists are slightly down and turnovers up.

If he doesn't come up big in the next few games, i can see him ending up below Leoanrd, KD, Giannis, and Jokic at the least.

[WarriorGM]

Most had Harden either 1st or 2nd in the regular season, can you guys see him possibly falling out of the top 5 if he doesn't put up more of a fight in this series?

And his all around numbers plummeted from the regular season:

30.6 PER down to 22.6
61.6 ts% down to 53.9
11.7 BPM down to 7.5
36.1 ppg down to 29

Assists are slightly down and turnovers up.

If he doesn't come up big in the next few games, i can see him ending up below Leoanrd, KD, Giannis, and Jokic at the least.

I think it's somewhat unfair to Harden. He came into the series apparently nursing some sort of injury to his wrist and then he gets poked in the eye. I don't see him at 100%.

[No-more-rings]

Most had Harden either 1st or 2nd in the regular season, can you guys see him possibly falling out of the top 5 if he doesn't put up more of a fight in this series?

And his all around numbers plummeted from the regular season:

30.6 PER down to 22.6
61.6 ts% down to 53.9
11.7 BPM down to 7.5
36.1 ppg down to 29

Assists are slightly down and turnovers up.

If he doesn't come up big in the next few games, i can see him ending up below Leoanrd, KD, Giannis, and Jokic at the least.

I think it's somewhat unfair to Harden. He came into the series apparently nursing some sort of injury to his wrist and then he gets poked in the eye. I don't see him at 100%.

I don't recall either of these.

[Texas Chuck]

I don't recall either of these.

The pictures of his eye have been everywhere. Stunned anyone could have missed that. Especially since he had to come out of the game as a result.


And no question Harden's post-season so far hasn't measured up to his RS, but considering just how absurd his RS was, I'm not seeing how he could tumble all the way out of the top 5. Even if Jokic and Kawhi keep this up and make runs to at least the conference Finals its hard to see both Curry and Durant able to pass Harden to get him all the way down to 6(Giannis obviously the other top 5 lock).