UFC 236 - Max vs Dustin P

Post #101 » by **FNQ** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:07 am

I now regret not calling out someone for calling Dustin mediocre.. dude's legit and he proved it. Paid out very well too (thanks Bovada!) He's made a significant leap, but I dont think he's on the level of Khabib and I think he's at a disadvantage against Ferguson as well.

I think Gillespie can climb up the rankings too pretty soon. He's very balanced. Needs to fight someone from the upper echelon though.. Felder, Barbosa, or Gaethje would give him a stiff test that I think he's ready for.

As for Holloway, I hope he returns to 145. He still has a couple people there to challenge him, specifically Frankie Edgar, Alexander the Great, and that Wolverine looking dude who's name escapes me right now

cowboyronnie · Post #102 » by **cowboyronnie** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:58 am

REDDzone wrote:
cowboyronnie wrote:
Bernman wrote:
That's uncalled for. Let the dude enjoy his victory for a minute before you map on the subsequent fighters you speculate he'll lose to.

No, it's called for. Because this was actually just a number one contender bout. We all know that. Speculation aside, this was not a legit belt. Dustin acting like it is with the tears and the 'believe in yourself speech' is uncalled for. Khabib defended the actual belt against the very real #1 contender 7 months ago. This is just a WME PPV Bump belt.

Well regardless of the belt being real, he beat a very real champion handily. What was he supposed to do? Downplay it?

Yes, multiple fighters have done this. Fighters have acknowledged the interim-ness and said that they want the real one. I can remember one fighter actually not even allowing the belt to be put around their waist. They were like, nope, I'll put on the real one when I kick so-and-so's ass.

He did the exact opposite. He was in tears, he explicitly said that _he was wearing the real belt_, and he gave the George Foreman speech about following your dreams. I understand why he would do it, psychologically. But we don't have to buy it.

I cringed a little, is all I'm saying.

All that said, he beat a juggernaut, ended that guy's win streak, and - on top of that - Max was a bad match-up for him. He had crazy heart to push Max back and he beat Max at what Max does best. He's a stud. An awesome guy to add to the mix of Tony, Khabib, Conor, JG. To me, that's what happened last night: Dustin proved that he deserves to be talked about in the same breath as those top 3. Which is a big deal, something I was totally wrong about (:oops:).

REDDzone · Post #103 » by **REDDzone** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:02 am

cowboyronnie wrote:
REDDzone wrote:
cowboyronnie wrote:
No, it's called for. Because this was actually just a number one contender bout. We all know that. Speculation aside, this was not a legit belt. Dustin acting like it is with the tears and the 'believe in yourself speech' is uncalled for. Khabib defended the actual belt against the very real #1 contender 7 months ago. This is just a WME PPV Bump belt.

Well regardless of the belt being real, he beat a very real champion handily. What was he supposed to do? Downplay it?

Yes, multiple fighters have done this. Fighters have acknowledged the interim-ness and said that they want the real one. I can remember one fighter actually not even allowing the belt to be put around their waist. They were like, nope, I'll put on the real one when I kick so-and-so's ass.

He did the exact opposite. He was in tears, he explicitly said that _he was wearing the real belt_, and he gave the George Foreman speech about following your dreams. I understand why he would do it, psychologically. But we don't have to buy it.

I cringed a little, is all I'm saying.

All that said, he beat a juggernaut, ended that guy's win streak, and - on top of that - Max was a bad match-up for him. He had crazy heart to push Max back and he beat Max at what Max does best. He's a stud. An awesome guy to add to the mix of Tony, Khabib, Conor, JG. To me, that's what happened last night: Dustin proved that he deserves to be talked about in the same breath as those top 3. Which is a big deal, something I was totally wrong about (:oops:).

Are you sure you're thinking of an interim titleholder and not DC when he wouldn't claim the title until he won a fight because he retained after being KTFO by Jones? That's the only instance I can recall of someone refusing a belt.

cowboyronnie · Post #104 » by **cowboyronnie** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:06 am

Oh, right, possibly,

cowboyronnie · Post #105 » by **cowboyronnie** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:10 am

Regardless, fighters have definitely taken the opposite tact from Dustin and explicitly acknowledged that they need to win the real won. Dustin said his was the real one.

This is also isn't a case - unlike with JJ - of the actual belt being in dispute after a NC. The champion is sitting on the sidelines sorta voluntarily not fighting. But he has a linear claim to the belt.

Oh, wait KHABIB himself discounted the value of the belt until he beat Mac. After winning it from Al. Because, although it wasn't an interim, he had won it after it had been vacated.

Post #106 » by **lilfishi22** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:03 am

A few fighters have downplayed the interim belt but I think it's silly to downplay someone's achievement just because you don't think it's "real" or that it's not the undisputed title. He's in the middle of the cage after thoroughly beating one of the top P4P fighters, having gone through Alvarez, Pettis and Gethje and now has a UFC belt wrapped around his waist, that's real.

Let the man have his moment

cowboyronnie · Post #107 » by **cowboyronnie** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:05 pm

The UFC is on some Mary Poppins ****.

They paid a couple thousand dollars for a belt to be manufactured. And then picked two guys whose circumstances - _unlike the clear, unequivocal top 3 fighters in the division_ - allowed them to be in the cage on the night of the first ESPN PPV. Why not make it for a championship? Forget every other standard. We have the capacity to make a physical belt. And we have a plausibly competitive fight. That's all you need for a championship? To manufacture a belt and to have a convenient fight that will make your broadcaster money?

duppyy · Post #108 » by **duppyy** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:09 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:A few fighters have downplayed the interim belt but I think it's silly to downplay someone's achievement just because you don't think it's "real" or that it's not the undisputed title. He's in the middle of the cage after thoroughly beating one of the top P4P fighters, having gone through Alvarez, Pettis and Gethje and now has a UFC belt wrapped around his waist, that's real.

Let the man have his moment

Pretty sure he's having his moment and comments on an irrelevant message board won't derail that.

I was just making a statement that Porier has no chance against Khabib which people got upset for making that remark. Strikers end up getting demolished by Khabib and Porier will be no different.

Post #109 » by **spykelee** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:34 pm

I dont think I'd go as far as to say no chance, but he'd be in tough for sure. Isn't out of the question he can sting khabib and keep him at distance but I certainly wouldn't bet the house on it. As mentioned earlier though, I can't recall anyone really wrestle humping Dustin. Hes a tough savvy vet and can probably find his way back to his feet a few times even if he is taken down.

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Jasen777 · Post #110 » by **Jasen777** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:30 pm

cowboyronnie wrote:That's all you need for a championship? To manufacture a belt and to have a convenient fight that will make your broadcaster money?

Yes.

cowboyronnie · Post #111 » by **cowboyronnie** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:14 pm

Jasen777 wrote:
cowboyronnie wrote:That's all you need for a championship? To manufacture a belt and to have a convenient fight that will make your broadcaster money?

Yes.

What about if there were someone wearing a belt who'd beat the previous champ (>Conor), who'd beaten the previous champ(>Eddie), who'd beaten the previous champ (>RDA), who'd beaten the previous champ (>Pettis)...and so on? So like there was a long line of champions beating other champions.

Are we going to have to make up a word for someone who holds that type of championship belt rather than the type Dustin has? Because we absolutely cannot say one's simply a better or more real championship than the other: to have a linear championship rather than a concocted, commercial one from a tough fight. That would not allow Dustin his moment. So let's just say the Different-not-Better Champion A is Khahib and Different-not-Better Champion B is Dustin. Everyone wins.

Bernman · Post #112 » by **Bernman** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:34 pm

duppyy wrote:Pretty sure he's having his moment and comments on an irrelevant message board won't derail that.

I was just making a statement that Porier has no chance against Khabib which people got upset for making that remark. Strikers end up getting demolished by Khabib and Porier will be no different.

It shows lack of perspective to come out right after a guy gets a huge win against an all-time great and your only comment is: yeah but you'd lose against another guy, which you can say about anybody in MMA history but maybe a roided up Jones. Take a breath and give the guy credit before moving on to be dismissive of his performances. It doesn't have impact on anything but it's the sheer idea. This has nothing to do with the belt. It would be a great win belt or not. He's done something else nobody has in beating a prime Holloway. Belts are somewhat of a contrivance either way. Holloway himself had 10 straight wins w/ no official belt. Ferguson has 11. Beating them by itself is a great accomplishment that should be savored in the moment.

But indulging you on the topic of the hypothetical Khabib match: the only way you're realistically going to beat him is with striking not grappling, and Poirier has good chops in the latter to resist getting totally wiped out in that department. He came from a wrestling background, and his early Zuffa fights were working grappling/gnp. The striking developed later. Poirier has gotten taken down here and there in his mma career, but nobody has controlled him in this area, and his footwork has improved to not be in position to be taken down easily. Strength is also better. So he has about as good of a shot at beating Khabib as anyone. Silly to write him off totally when he keeps improving and proving people wrong.

cowboyronnie · Post #113 » by **cowboyronnie** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:53 pm

I agree, to just pull Khabib's name randomly out of a hat, like he has some sort of counter-claim to Dustin's position that he is wearing the "real" belt, is a lack of perspective. This is pure indulgence and hypothetical. As if saying, yeah, sure you beat Holloway but you'd be eaten by a kodiak bear. Get some perspective, a fight with Khabib!? Why would that ever come to your mind? Lol what about fighting a giant octopus in 4 metres of water? I mean, pure indulgence.

Bernman · Post #114 » by **Bernman** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:13 pm

cowboyronnie wrote:I agree, to just pull Khabib's name randomly out of a hat, like he has some sort of counter-claim to Dustin's position that he is wearing the "real" belt, is a lack of perspective. This is pure indulgence and hypothetical. As if saying, yeah, sure you beat Holloway but you'd be eaten by a kodiak bear. Get some perspective, a fight with Khabib!? Why would that ever come to your mind? Lol what about fighting a giant octopus in 4 metres of water? I mean, pure indulgence.

It was the only comment, immediately after, not prompted by anything, and your stance in defending it is in all likelihood colored by your perception about Poirier before the fight calling him mediocre. Now you're tempering the deserved praise he receives afterward by focusing on the technicality of the belt legitimacy. A fighter that doesn't have something special about him, let alone a mediocre one, doesn't go out and thrash one of the top 10 all-time greats in his prime. That was an absurd take. Let's face it. Just own it and move on, don't dig the hole deeper.

cowboyronnie · Post #115 » by **cowboyronnie** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:16 pm

No, no, I agree. That was an awesome showing by Poirier. As I mentioned earlier, not only did he beat one of the top fighters on the planet, Max was also a bad match-up. He pushed him back and lit him up. It was a pretty sound beating. No mediocre fighter can do that.

So, uh, about the indulgence of imagining the interim champion fighting the champion. Let's not do that. It's Lent: I don't eat sugar, yank it, or engage in fantasy.

REDDzone · Post #116 » by **REDDzone** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:34 pm

There have been millions of interim champions since WME took over. They have a policy that they will not have a ppv headlined by a non title bout, and that literally apparently extends even to Conor McGregor. I don't see why this particular interim belt is so triggering. If the beef is with WME's policies, fine, but I don't see why the need to take that out on Dustin.

Poirier isn't a top 3 guy in the division? Let's put that into context. McGregor was just soundly beaten by Khabib and hasn't won a fight since 2016 (oh, and has exactly ONE lw win ever). He also just allegedly raped some chick and has assaulted 2 people in the last month. Tony has legitimate mental issues and who knows when we will see him back in the cage. Khabib is still pouting about his goons being suspended and won't be back until the Fall. Do we just have to wait on those guys or what? Because none of them are even on the radar for having a fight scheduled as far as I can tell.

Post #117 » by **spykelee** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:43 pm

I think Dustin beats an octopus in 4 meters of water. Not so confident on his chances against a Kodiak bear though.

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Post #118 » by **lilfishi22** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:46 pm

duppyy wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:A few fighters have downplayed the interim belt but I think it's silly to downplay someone's achievement just because you don't think it's "real" or that it's not the undisputed title. He's in the middle of the cage after thoroughly beating one of the top P4P fighters, having gone through Alvarez, Pettis and Gethje and now has a UFC belt wrapped around his waist, that's real.

Let the man have his moment

Pretty sure he's having his moment and comments on an irrelevant message board won't derail that.

I was just making a statement that Porier has no chance against Khabib which people got upset for making that remark. Strikers end up getting demolished by Khabib and Porier will be no different.

So you don't make any comments/reviews about the fight or achievement itself and the only thing you have to offer is that he'll lose Khabib?

cowboyronnie · Post #119 » by **cowboyronnie** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:50 pm

REDDzone wrote:There have been millions of interim champions since WME took over. They have a policy that they will not have a ppv headlined by a non title bout, and that literally apparently extends even to Conor McGregor. I don't see why this particular interim belt is so triggering. If the beef is with WME's policies, fine, but I don't see why the need to take that out on Dustin.

Poirier isn't a top 3 guy in the division? Let's put that into context. McGregor was just soundly beaten by Khabib and hasn't won a fight since 2016 (oh, and has exactly ONE lw win ever). He also just allegedly raped some chick and has assaulted 2 people in the last month. Tony has legitimate mental issues and who knows when we will see him back in the cage. Khabib is still pouting about his goons being suspended and won't be back until the Fall. Do we just have to wait on those guys or what? Because none of them are even on the radar for having a fight scheduled as far as I can tell.

1. Easy, Gavin McGinnis.

2. Can we not all just unite around our spite for TJ and - especially - his trainer guru guy? Stop this in-fighting, let's mock that man.

REDDzone · Post #120 » by **REDDzone** » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:56 pm

cowboyronnie wrote:
REDDzone wrote:There have been millions of interim champions since WME took over. They have a policy that they will not have a ppv headlined by a non title bout, and that literally apparently extends even to Conor McGregor. I don't see why this particular interim belt is so triggering. If the beef is with WME's policies, fine, but I don't see why the need to take that out on Dustin.

Poirier isn't a top 3 guy in the division? Let's put that into context. McGregor was just soundly beaten by Khabib and hasn't won a fight since 2016 (oh, and has exactly ONE lw win ever). He also just allegedly raped some chick and has assaulted 2 people in the last month. Tony has legitimate mental issues and who knows when we will see him back in the cage. Khabib is still pouting about his goons being suspended and won't be back until the Fall. Do we just have to wait on those guys or what? Because none of them are even on the radar for having a fight scheduled as far as I can tell.

1. Easy, Gavin McGinnis.

2. Can we not all just unite around our spite for TJ and - especially - his trainer guru guy? Stop this in-fighting, let's mock that man.

I honestly have no idea who that is. Whatever.