Political Roundtable Part XXV

[dckingsfan]

Dems run the right person and Trump gets trounced. However, in the Mueller report it said that the Russians had successfully messed with a voting machine in Florida, who knows how successful they were elsewhere and what their capabilities are. Also, Republicans are looking the other way on this and have implemented ZERO counter-measures as far I know.

Sure... but who. And more importantly, how?
Again, look at the litmus test for each party and how far left they have gone.
Republicans can be neutral on Gay Marriage while Democrats have to be for "No White Males", No borders, medicare for all, abortion AT ANY TIME and ANY circumstance. They overplayed the identity politics hand and now you have a mishmash of people that really dont have the same values.

I have a hard time seeing a candidate that wont look like a far left ideologue on the national stage when REAL questions are asked about their beliefs without alienating their base.

And I dont take the midterms that seriously. I think people saw Trump get elected and the R's have both houses. It allowed people to sorta step back. Then you add in the Russia hysteria, and I think Center Right folks just werent that passionate.
I think 2020 will be very differently. People who were for/neutral on Trump will see the ridiculous Russia Hoax for what it was. Additionally, they would have had 3+ years of seeing the Far Left react and you'll be surprised...again.

I stand by my prediction. Unless the D's really thread the needle with the right candidate (Gabbard/Yang), I think Trump wins... and not by a close margin.

Serious question what’s the Republican’s policies on:

1. Healthcare
2. The economy
3. Immigration
4. The way women are treated in the US
5. Gun policy
6. Taxes
7. Foreign affairs
8. Income inequality
9. US trade and tariffs
10. Climate change

And I want actual policies or proposals not just some bull talking points and platitudes.

Okay, I'm not tying to defend anyone here but...

This goes with Rs & Ds in general.

1) So far there have been no meaningful proposals by either side - its the cost drivers.

2) Both sides have offered there versions of stimuli in 4 consecutive administrations. Only going back to the Bush/Clinton transition did we have something that worked well. And Bush was crucified by the Ds for doing the right thing.

3) Neither side has a good immigration policy. The Rs want to keep everyone out even though we have a demographic problem. The Ds want to give away social services - even though it is already burying the economy. They want the dreamers to be citizens but have not idea of how to keep that problem from reoccurring.

4) Women now make up the majority of college graduates - they are seriously taking care of themselves. This should have been titled women and their children. That is where the discrepancy lies. To that end - the Ds have meaning proposals on this end - the Rs have none. Well kind of - getting rid of the federal loan guarantee program would be the first start. Both parties have bankrupted our youth.

5) The Rs are beholden to the NRA. But the Ds seem to be stuck on the "anti-NRA" bandwagon without any meaningful proposals on how to deal with the guns that are out there today.

6) Nothing from either side. Its the tax code stupid. Neither side is willing to remove all deductions and have investment income taxed the same as earned income. Both sides use it as a cudgel for their constituents. Jacking up marginal tax rates or creating a wealth tax are not solutions - they just make things more complex with more carveouts to their constituents.

7) We can go waaaaay back on this one - failed for many generations.

8) Still not willing to deal with the tax code... no solutions from either side.

9) No meaningful proposals from either side.

10) GND might actually be worse than doing nothing. The Rs are right there at pathetic - the Ds aren't much further behind with their denialist proposal.

[Pointgod]

Sure... but who. And more importantly, how?
Again, look at the litmus test for each party and how far left they have gone.
Republicans can be neutral on Gay Marriage while Democrats have to be for "No White Males", No borders, medicare for all, abortion AT ANY TIME and ANY circumstance. They overplayed the identity politics hand and now you have a mishmash of people that really dont have the same values.

I have a hard time seeing a candidate that wont look like a far left ideologue on the national stage when REAL questions are asked about their beliefs without alienating their base.

And I dont take the midterms that seriously. I think people saw Trump get elected and the R's have both houses. It allowed people to sorta step back. Then you add in the Russia hysteria, and I think Center Right folks just werent that passionate.
I think 2020 will be very differently. People who were for/neutral on Trump will see the ridiculous Russia Hoax for what it was. Additionally, they would have had 3+ years of seeing the Far Left react and you'll be surprised...again.

I stand by my prediction. Unless the D's really thread the needle with the right candidate (Gabbard/Yang), I think Trump wins... and not by a close margin.

Serious question what’s the Republican’s policies on:

1. Healthcare
2. The economy
3. Immigration
4. The way women are treated in the US
5. Gun policy
6. Taxes
7. Foreign affairs
8. Income inequality
9. US trade and tariffs
10. Climate change

And I want actual policies or proposals not just some bull talking points and platitudes.

Okay, I'm not tying to defend anyone here but...

This goes with Rs & Ds in general.

1) So far there have been no meaningful proposals by either side - its the cost drivers.

2) Both sides have offered there versions of stimuli in 4 consecutive administrations. Only going back to the Bush/Clinton transition did we have something that worked well. And Bush was crucified by the Ds for doing the right thing.

3) Neither side has a good immigration policy. The Rs want to keep everyone out even though we have a demographic problem. The Ds want to give away social services - even though it is already burying the economy. They want the dreamers to be citizens but have not idea of how to keep that problem from reoccurring.

4) Women now make up the majority of college graduates - they are seriously taking care of themselves. This should have been titled women and their children. That is where the discrepancy lies. To that end - the Ds have meaning proposals on this end - the Rs have none. Well kind of - getting rid of the federal loan guarantee program would be the first start. Both parties have bankrupted our youth.

5) The Rs are beholden to the NRA. But the Ds seem to be stuck on the "anti-NRA" bandwagon without any meaningful proposals on how to deal with the guns that are out there today.

6) Nothing from either side. Its the tax code stupid. Neither side is willing to remove all deductions and have investment income taxed the same as earned income. Both sides use it as a cudgel for their constituents. Jacking up marginal tax rates or creating a wealth tax are not solutions - they just make things more complex with more carveouts to their constituents.

7) We can go waaaaay back on this one - failed for many generations.

8) Still not willing to deal with the tax code... no solutions from either side.

9) No meaningful proposals from either side.

10) GND might actually be worse than doing nothing. The Rs are right there at pathetic - the Ds aren't much further behind with their denialist proposal.

I appreciate your responses. I want pcbothwel to answer my questions with actual policies. It would be interesting to see what policies that the Republicans have put forward on this. As you’ve pointed out, it looks like the Democrats have put out more proposals whether you agree or disagree on them, but I don’t think you can make a proper argument without seeing the alternatives from Republicans.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[dckingsfan]

Serious question what’s the Republican’s policies on:

1. Healthcare
2. The economy
3. Immigration
4. The way women are treated in the US
5. Gun policy
6. Taxes
7. Foreign affairs
8. Income inequality
9. US trade and tariffs
10. Climate change

And I want actual policies or proposals not just some bull talking points and platitudes.

Okay, I'm not tying to defend anyone here but...

This goes with Rs & Ds in general.

1) So far there have been no meaningful proposals by either side - its the cost drivers.

2) Both sides have offered there versions of stimuli in 4 consecutive administrations. Only going back to the Bush/Clinton transition did we have something that worked well. And Bush was crucified by the Ds for doing the right thing.

3) Neither side has a good immigration policy. The Rs want to keep everyone out even though we have a demographic problem. The Ds want to give away social services - even though it is already burying the economy. They want the dreamers to be citizens but have not idea of how to keep that problem from reoccurring.

4) Women now make up the majority of college graduates - they are seriously taking care of themselves. This should have been titled women and their children. That is where the discrepancy lies. To that end - the Ds have meaning proposals on this end - the Rs have none. Well kind of - getting rid of the federal loan guarantee program would be the first start. Both parties have bankrupted our youth.

5) The Rs are beholden to the NRA. But the Ds seem to be stuck on the "anti-NRA" bandwagon without any meaningful proposals on how to deal with the guns that are out there today.

6) Nothing from either side. Its the tax code stupid. Neither side is willing to remove all deductions and have investment income taxed the same as earned income. Both sides use it as a cudgel for their constituents. Jacking up marginal tax rates or creating a wealth tax are not solutions - they just make things more complex with more carveouts to their constituents.

7) We can go waaaaay back on this one - failed for many generations.

8) Still not willing to deal with the tax code... no solutions from either side.

9) No meaningful proposals from either side.

10) GND might actually be worse than doing nothing. The Rs are right there at pathetic - the Ds aren't much further behind with their denialist proposal.

I appreciate your responses. I want pcbothwel to answer my questions with actual policies. It would be interesting to see what policies that the Republicans have put forward on this. As you’ve pointed out, it looks like the Democrats have put out more proposals whether you agree or disagree on them, but I don’t think you can make a proper argument without seeing the alternatives from Republicans.

Fair enough. If your point is the Rs have a dearth of meaningful proposals. I would agree with you. If you are arguing that the Ds have a meaningful way forward with the current proposals that are out there - I would disagree.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[Pointgod]

This may be true but it’s not that straightforward. There are a couple things that you have take into account.

1. If the House impeaches there is no way that Republicans will ever convict in the Senate. Like zip zero. This isn’t a reason to not impeach but how do you keep Republicans and Trump from turning it into a political tool? That’s the real problem because they will absolutely use it for their political gain.

2. The majority of Americans aren’t as well versed in legal matters or pay close attention to politics. It may seem harsh but they don’t bother to educate themselves on civic matters. There’s a propaganda network spewing right wing lies and the mainstream media doesn’t cover it well either. Let’s say Trump has his 40% that will never leave him. Let’s say the Democrats have their 40% that are solidly D, but realistically probably only 20% are hardcore left that will impeach Trump no matter what. Then there’s the remaining 20% that either don’t care or will see the impeachment as merely political. How do you convince that 20% that see everything as both sides? I’ve said till I was blue in the face that voters need to get rid of Republicans, even then you have posters in this thread that say you can’t get rid of ALL of them. This line of thinking is probably more common than anyone wants to acknowledge.

This has nothing to do with old Democrats vs younger ones. It has everything to do with Republicans in the Senate being complete trash and obfuscating their responsibility to the country. Democrats have to continue investigations and build a rock solid case for impeachment. This twitter thread is a good plan for how to do it.

Read on Twitter

Of course if you impeach, you can't convict in the Senate. The point is to send a message that you are governing and wielding power.

Also, people compare this to Clinton. Clinton was popular before his impeachment and was popular after. Trump has been unpopular his whole time in office and as a candidate. In 2000, GOP won WH, House, and the Senate was split. I'd wager to say impeachment in the end helped them.

I get exactly where you’re coming from regarding impeachment, but if Democrats do it,they need to have an airtight strategy and they can’t get it wrong. We all know Trump obstructed Justice many times, it’s plainly obvious but things need to be handled the right way. Get Mueller in a public testimony and get him under oath to basically admit that the only reason Trump isn’t indicted is because he’s President. Get Don Maeghan under oath admitting to the all the crimes Trump committed. You literally have to spell things out plainly for the majority of Americans that don’t pay close attention to politics.

Because if you play out impeachment proceedings and the Senate doesn’t convict Trump, then what’s the plan? You’ve just handed the Republicans a gift politically because the process was rigged in Trump’s favor from the beginning. Better to leave no doubt about Trump’s guilt and put Republicans up for re-election on the record protecting a criminal. Democrats need to do their duty to the country, but they can’t just rush into impeachment without a strategy.

[Pointgod]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

Seriously **** Ken Starr and all the partisan GOP hypocrites.

[dobrojim]

I love this... The Left/Dems continue to miss the point and the "Pulse of the nation". Which is a continuing trend.

Here is the truth as I see it from a progressive / republican / Libertarian:
- In 2016, The Dems did not acknowledge real issues in the country and Trump tapped into them which got him elected.
- Since then, they have hung on to any and all excuses that allow them to deviate from a real self reflection of where the country is going and how their party's values can help shape it.
- Personally, I dont think the Dems have any chance in 2020, but not because Trump is unbeatable. Its because they keep allowing the media and elitist class to guide the party. Examples:

1) You want the TRUE Left/liberal Senator with real Policy ideas: You should get behind Elizabeth Warren, but instead support goes to Bernie and he doesn't have the policy chops to be a real leader like Warren... (It should be noted, I mostly cant stand Warren, but im trying to be impartial and give you facts)

2) You want the younger, sharp well-spoken women with real principles and life experience that is against the Military industrial Complex: You should get behind Tulsi Gabbard. A Real liberal, military vet who is sharp, principled, and personable....
Instead, support goes to shady lawyers like Booker/Kamla Harris who are loved by corporatist big donors and haven't had an original thought in their political life. They are from the Clinton wing of "Who gives a damn about principle, just stay elected and regurgitate platitudes" while they would support continued global interventionism.

3) You want the outside the box/norm candidate with real ideas and a change agent: You should get behind Andrew Yang. A highly intelligent and empathetic entrepreneur that has served in the Obama Administration and has more policies that most every other candidate combined. Including wild/provocative ideas like UBI and barring former politicians from being lobbyist.
Instead... you try to prop up Robert "Call me Beto" O'rourke and Buttigieg who have done NOTHING of substance.

Yell and scream about Trump and Deplorables all you want...
But it was you (In the abstract) that choose people like Harris, Booker, and Beto over Warren, Gabbard, and Yang.

You're truly jealous that citizens on the right finally broke free from the traditional "Do-Nothing but get elected" political class and elected Trump...For all his faults. He has re-aligned our party and created a real path forward.
Liberals need to do the same and get behind Gabbard/Yang... If they have stones to do so.

Thats the truth... but hey, what do I know

On the subject of what do I know, I was much more hopeful that the voting public,
as much as it didn't like HRC, would not support a (GOP) candidate that Republican
newspapers who had NEVER endorsed a democratic, couldn't endorse, would not vote for Trump.
I was only partly right and with the help of the granddaddy gerrymander of them all,
the Electoral College, Trump got fewer votes but won.

That's point one against me -

point 2 - we're a long way from Nov 2020.

Both of those things said, Trump is now clearly a known quantity and a significant
number of the people who sat out or voted 3rd party are (IMO) much more unlikely
to do so again. Trump has unfavorable ratings over 50% in 16 states totaling over 200 EC votes.
He has over 50% favorable ratings in 17 states totaling a tad over 100 EC votes. It's possible
Trump could sweep the relatively small number of up for grabs states but the electoral
math is heavily against him. Lightning could strike twice but the odds are against it.

I think at the end of the day, the large number of people who oppose Trump will coalesce
enough around a single candidate and carry the day.

[TGW]

Noam Chomsky is smarter than you.

Watch on YouTube

[dobrojim]

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TRUMP is the Republican standard bearer. How are you prescribing all this bull**** that clearly does not apply to Republicans. You’re telling on yourself big time by nakedly pushing this double standard.

Non-ideologue with intelligence, character and experience! Trump checks zero of those boxes!

Trump is an outlier... Your obsession is noted.
Either way, Trump RUNS away with it in 2020.

But good luck.

With a 41-42% approval rating he won't.....

My point exactly. He's way underwater and completely uninterested in fixing that.
He's the most popular Republican ever according to him.

[dobrojim]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

This from the guy who claims he has the greatest memory of anyone.

[TGW]

Read on Twitter

[TGW]

You guys don't get it. You are not going to impeach Trump on obstruction of a "crime" that never happened. Trump using Twitter to defend himself in the court of public opinion is totally appropriate when his job relies upon the approval of the public to get things done.

Please, continue to push this narrative. It will only lead to more gains by Trump and the Republicans.

Ok. I WILL.....

I love this... The Left/Dems continue to miss the point and the "Pulse of the nation". Which is a continuing trend.

Here is the truth as I see it from a progressive / republican / Libertarian:
- In 2016, The Dems did not acknowledge real issues in the country and Trump tapped into them which got him elected.
- Since then, they have hung on to any and all excuses that allow them to deviate from a real self reflection of where the country is going and how their party's values can help shape it.
- Personally, I dont think the Dems have any chance in 2020, but not because Trump is unbeatable. Its because they keep allowing the media and elitist class to guide the party. Examples:

1) You want the TRUE Left/liberal Senator with real Policy ideas: You should get behind Elizabeth Warren, but instead support goes to Bernie and he doesn't have the policy chops to be a real leader like Warren... (It should be noted, I mostly cant stand Warren, but im trying to be impartial and give you facts)

2) You want the younger, sharp well-spoken women with real principles and life experience that is against the Military industrial Complex: You should get behind Tulsi Gabbard. A Real liberal, military vet who is sharp, principled, and personable....
Instead, support goes to shady lawyers like Booker/Kamla Harris who are loved by corporatist big donors and haven't had an original thought in their political life. They are from the Clinton wing of "Who gives a damn about principle, just stay elected and regurgitate platitudes" while they would support continued global interventionism.

3) You want the outside the box/norm candidate with real ideas and a change agent: You should get behind Andrew Yang. A highly intelligent and empathetic entrepreneur that has served in the Obama Administration and has more policies that most every other candidate combined. Including wild/provocative ideas like UBI and barring former politicians from being lobbyist.
Instead... you try to prop up Robert "Call me Beto" O'rourke and Buttigieg who have done NOTHING of substance.

Yell and scream about Trump and Deplorables all you want...
But it was you (In the abstract) that choose people like Harris, Booker, and Beto over Warren, Gabbard, and Yang.

You're truly jealous that citizens on the right finally broke free from the traditional "Do-Nothing but get elected" political class and elected Trump...For all his faults. He has re-aligned our party and created a real path forward.
Liberals need to do the same and get behind Gabbard/Yang... If they have stones to do so.

Oh a Republican giving advice to the Democratic Party...

[Pointgod]

Trump approval drops to 2019 low after Mueller report's release: poll

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/439832-trump-approval-drops-to-2019-low-after-mueller-reports-release-poll

According to Reuters, the figure was down from 43 percent in a poll conducted shortly after Attorney General William Barr delivered his summary of Mueller's report to Congress last month.

Looks like the fix from Barr didn’t last long.

According to the poll, 50 percent of adults said they believed that "Trump or someone from his campaign worked with Russia to influence the 2016 election," while 58 percent surveyed said they thought Trump "tried to stop investigations into Russian influence on his administration."

The survey found that Americans remain divided over whether they think Trump should be impeached. Forty percent if those polled said Trump should be ousted, while 42 percent said the House should not begin impeachment proceedings.

[Jamaaliver]

Trump’s Washing Machine Tariffs Stung Consumers While Lifting Corporate Profits


President Trump’s decision to impose tariffs on imported washing machines has had an odd effect: It raised prices on washing machines, as expected, but also drove up the cost of clothes dryers, which rose by $92 last year. [T]ariffs raised prices for dryers, largely because manufacturers of laundry equipment used the tariffs as an opportunity to raise prices on things that were not, in fact, affected by the tariffs.

What appears to have happened is a case study in how a measure meant to help domestic factory workers can rebound on American consumers, creating unexpected costs and leaving shoppers with a sky-high bill for every factory job created.

Research to be released on Monday estimates that consumers bore between 125 percent and 225 percent of the costs of the washing machine tariffs. The authors calculate that the tariffs brought in $82 million to the United States Treasury, while raising consumer prices by $1.5 billion.

And while the tariffs did encourage foreign companies to shift more of their manufacturing to the United States and created about 1,800 new jobs, the researchers conclude that those came at a steep cost: about $817,000 per job.

The costs of tariffs are paid by some combination of consumers, in the form of higher prices for the products they buy, and companies, which sometimes accept lower profit margins in order to avoid losing sales when tariffs are applied.

The study authors credit Mr. Trump’s tariffs with 200 new jobs at Whirlpool’s plant in Clyde, Ohio, and a further 1,600 jobs for a Samsung factory in South Carolina and an LG factory in Tennessee. That’s 1,800 new jobs, at the cost — net of tariff revenues — of just under $1.5 billion for American consumers.

Or, as the authors calculate, $817,000 per job.

Spoiler:

Other studies support the idea that tariffs are an expensive way to bolster job-creation in the United States. A study by the Peterson Institute found that tire tariffs imposed by Mr. Obama cost about $900,000 per job created. A more recent one found that Mr. Trump’s steel tariffs raised prices on steel users by $650,000 for every job they supported. For a few thousand workers, those tariffs, across administrations, have been a boon. And consumers have picked up the bill.

Washington Post

[dckingsfan]

According to Reuters, the figure was down from 43 percent in a poll conducted shortly after Attorney General William Barr delivered his summary of Mueller's report to Congress last month.

Looks like the fix from Barr didn’t last long.

[dobrojim]

Those don't seem like the numbers of some invincible candidate^

[Pointgod]

Those don't seem like the numbers of some invincible candidate^

It would be interesting to see the numbers where on a State by State basis. Especially the States that he has to win to get re-elected. That’s the problem with just looking at the polls sometimes, they don’t tell the whole story. Republicans have a built in advantage because of the Electoral College. Just another reason that it has to go.

[dckingsfan]

Those don't seem like the numbers of some invincible candidate^

It would be interesting to see the numbers where on a State by State basis. Especially the States that he has to win to get re-elected. That’s the problem with just looking at the polls sometimes, they don’t tell the whole story. Republicans have a built in advantage because of the Electoral College. Just another reason that it has to go.

The Electoral College has to go because it favors one party over the other or because it is inherently unfair?

[JWizmentality]

Been telling you guys TGW is STD's alt account.