GOAT TEAM TOURNAMENT (semifinals) ##14 1983 Philadelphia 76ers v. #4 2017 Golden State Warriors

[penbeast0]

Each player will be considered to be as dominant against his opponents as he was the year that he played (ie. if you are just going to say the more modern team wins, don't bother to participate). And EACH MATCHUP WILL FEATURE THE RULES, REFEREES, AND EQUIPMENT OF THE OLDER TEAM. This doesn't mean that Steph Curry will be called for carrying each time he tries to dribble, just assume that his handle is proportionately as good relative to the era as it is relative to his own. So, in 65, if you think he has the best handle in today's league, you can assume he has the best handle of that era; if he's roughly average for starting PGs of today's league in terms of that one aspect, you can assume he is roughly average for starting PGs of that era. This hopefully will eliminate a bit of the recency bias. Health is as it was, if a player was 75% during the playoffs that year, assume he's only 75% now, this is a playoff tournament, not a regular season seeding.

One last thing. VOTES WITHOUT ANALYSIS (or with what in my personal subject opinion is stupid analysis) WONT BE COUNTED.

!983 Philadephia 76ers

Moses Malone
(Marc Iavaroni)
Julius Erving
Andrew Toney
Maurice Cheeks

Bobby Jones
Clint Richardson
Clemon Johnson

"Fo, fo, fo!," was Moses's prediction for the playoffs. Actually they did lose one game in the playoffs but this is a team whose regular season performance probably understates both it's talent and it's postseason dominance (only 5th/23 in both offense and defense during the regular season). Although Iavaroni was the nominal starter, Bobby Jones and Clint Richardson both played more minutes as this team was both very deep and full of HOF players. Adding Moses Malone to a perennial contender was looked on as almost unfair and the Sixers, for this one year, made that look accurate. Bird and the Celtics were taken down by Sidney Moncrief and the Bucks but the Sixers swept the Showtime Lakers with Kareem and Tragic Johnson in the finals. The 3 pointer existed in the NBA in 1983 but this team didn't use it; the Sixers scored a total of one 3 pointer (out of 10 attempts) in their playoff run.

#4 2017 Golden State Warriors

2017 Golden State Warriors
Stephon Curry
Klay Thompson
Kevin Durant
Draymond Green
(Zaza Pachulia)

Andre Iguolada
David West
Shaun Livingston
Ian Clark
Patrick McCay

Possibly the great team that relied the most on the 3 ball in NBA history and was incredibly successful with it. They were the top ranked offense in the NBA and also the 2nd ranked defense. They have great players 1-4 and Iggy was a terrific sixth man, playing almost twice the minutes of nominal starters Zaza Pachulia. They also go deeper and more frequently to their bench than most teams so that will help with the pace issues. How posters think this 2017 team would adapt to the rules and refs of 1983 will be a big factor in their analysis.

[iggymcfrack]

I’m of the opinion that more physical rules actually favor a perimeter-oriented team. It’s certainly not like a team starting Draymond and KD at the forward positions is going to get bullied for being soft or small. The Warriors will be able to aggressively contest Philly’s shots at the rim while Philly won’t be able to do much about 25-30 foot jumpers regardless.

Warriors were obviously the better regular season team, so the thing to look at for if Sixers could possibly have any edge is the playoffs. Sixers went an impressive 12-1 while outscoring their opponents by 6.5 points per game. Warriors went an even more impressive 16-1 while outscoring their opponents by 13.5 points per game. Honestly, doesn’t seem particularly close.

Vote Warriors in 5.

[JordansBulls]

Sixers win this pretty handily in 5 games max. Warriors struggle with elite players. Would had lost to Spurs had Kawhi not got injured. was down 23 at home to them.

[TheGOATRises007]

Sixers win this pretty handily in 5 games max. Warriors struggle with elite players. Would had lost to Spurs had Kawhi not got injured. was down 23 at home to them.

How did the Warriors beat Lebron in the finals then if they struggle with elite players?

[iggymcfrack]

Sixers win this pretty handily in 5 games max. Warriors struggle with elite players. Would had lost to Spurs had Kawhi not got injured. was down 23 at home to them.

You do remember that they faced LeBron, Love, and Kyrie in the Finals and nearly swept them right? They won the 3 home games by an average of 17 points. Sixers don’t have anyone near as elite as LeBron.

[JordansBulls]

Sixers win this pretty handily in 5 games max. Warriors struggle with elite players. Would had lost to Spurs had Kawhi not got injured. was down 23 at home to them.

How did the Warriors beat Lebron in the finals then if they struggle with elite players?

Well Lebron doesn't count. He has been down 3-2 every year of his career in a series and also lost to Dwight Howard with HCA. Warriors never played against any other elite player in the league in a series and if so was down themselves in that series with HCA.

[JordansBulls]

Sixers win this pretty handily in 5 games max. Warriors struggle with elite players. Would had lost to Spurs had Kawhi not got injured. was down 23 at home to them.

You do remember that they faced LeBron, Love, and Kyrie in the Finals and nearly swept them right? They won the 3 home games by an average of 17 points. Sixers don’t have anyone near as elite as LeBron.

Sixers swept Magic and Kareem. Lebron has never gone thru a playoffs without being down 3-2 in a series even with HCA including 5 years in a row with it.

[iggymcfrack]

Sixers win this pretty handily in 5 games max. Warriors struggle with elite players. Would had lost to Spurs had Kawhi not got injured. was down 23 at home to them.

You do remember that they faced LeBron, Love, and Kyrie in the Finals and nearly swept them right? They won the 3 home games by an average of 17 points. Sixers don’t have anyone near as elite as LeBron.

Sixers swept Magic and Kareem. Lebron has never gone thru a playoffs without being down 3-2 in a series even with HCA including 5 years in a row with it.

So your argument is that the Warriors struggle with really elite players like Kawhi Leonard and Moses Malone, but not less elite players like LeBron James who’s a bum because he once lost a series where he put up 39/8/8 with one of the worst supporting casts to ever make a conference finals? Yeah, you’re totally not trolling at all.

[pandrade83]

Sixers win this pretty handily in 5 games max. Warriors struggle with elite players. Would had lost to Spurs had Kawhi not got injured. was down 23 at home to them.

How did the Warriors beat Lebron in the finals then if they struggle with elite players?

Well Lebron doesn't count. He has been down 3-2 every year of his career in a series and also lost to Dwight Howard with HCA. Warriors never played against any other elite player in the league in a series and if so was down themselves in that series with HCA.

This seems like it should strike your vote if Lebron doesn't count as an elite player.

[Samurai]

I don't understand why this discussion is focused on LeBron. According to the rosters, LeBron was not on the 17 Warriors or the 83 76ers so I don't see how he is even relevant to this match-up. There is no player on the 76ers who even played against LeBron, adding to the irrelevance.

So in this match-up, I am not considering LeBron at all. I see some match-ups that work in the Sixers favor. I don't think anyone can consistently stop KD one-on-one, but if I had to pick someone to try, Bobby Jones is as good a choice as anyone else. Cheeks was also a First Team All-Defense member; he has the tenacity to bother Curry and make him uncomfortable. But the biggest advantage is Moses. One of the few Achilles Heel spots for the Dubs is against strong offensive rebounders and Moses is as dominant there as anyone in history. He is too strong for Draymond and Green would likely be in foul trouble early and often if he had to defend Moses. West and Zaza have more size but I don't see either being able to guard Moses without fouling. Moses is just a very bad match-up for the Warriors. There are a few match-ups that can also favor the Warriors. I like putting Iguodala on Dr. J and I think Klay can post-up Toney. But these don't make up for the difference that Moses provides.

Playing under 1983 conditions also hurts the Warriors. The Spurs attempted more 3-pointers than any other team with 308 (the Sixers as a team only attempted 109!). Even if we assume the Warriors in 83 would attempt even more 3's than the Spurs, let's say 50% more, that would be 462 or 5.6 3's/game. If my math is right, the Dubs would be attempting about 82% fewer 3's than they did in 2017, which takes away a very big part of their strength. You are going from a team that averages 31 3's a game to attempting less than 6 a game!

Taking the 3-point shot largely away from the Warriors and dealing with Moses Malone are just too big of an obstacle to me. To a lesser degree, I don't see how wearing 1983 shoes and having 1983 trainers will somehow reduce the potential for injury to players like Curry, Iguodala, and Livingston. For those reasons, my vote is for the 83 Sixers.

[iggymcfrack]

I don't understand why this discussion is focused on LeBron. According to the rosters, LeBron was not on the 17 Warriors or the 83 76ers so I don't see how he is even relevant to this match-up. There is no player on the 76ers who even played against LeBron, adding to the irrelevance.

So in this match-up, I am not considering LeBron at all. I see some match-ups that work in the Sixers favor. I don't think anyone can consistently stop KD one-on-one, but if I had to pick someone to try, Bobby Jones is as good a choice as anyone else. Cheeks was also a First Team All-Defense member; he has the tenacity to bother Curry and make him uncomfortable. But the biggest advantage is Moses. One of the few Achilles Heel spots for the Dubs is against strong offensive rebounders and Moses is as dominant there as anyone in history. He is too strong for Draymond and Green would likely be in foul trouble early and often if he had to defend Moses. West and Zaza have more size but I don't see either being able to guard Moses without fouling. Moses is just a very bad match-up for the Warriors. There are a few match-ups that can also favor the Warriors. I like putting Iguodala on Dr. J and I think Klay can post-up Toney. But these don't make up for the difference that Moses provides.

Playing under 1983 conditions also hurts the Warriors. The Spurs attempted more 3-pointers than any other team with 308 (the Sixers as a team only attempted 109!). Even if we assume the Warriors in 83 would attempt even more 3's than the Spurs, let's say 50% more, that would be 462 or 5.6 3's/game. If my math is right, the Dubs would be attempting about 82% fewer 3's than they did in 2017, which takes away a very big part of their strength. You are going from a team that averages 31 3's a game to attempting less than 6 a game!

Taking the 3-point shot largely away from the Warriors and dealing with Moses Malone are just too big of an obstacle to me. To a lesser degree, I don't see how wearing 1983 shoes and having 1983 trainers will somehow reduce the potential for injury to players like Curry, Iguodala, and Livingston. For those reasons, my vote is for the 83 Sixers.

Why would playing under 1983 rules “take the 3-pointer away” from the Warriors? What about those rules keeps a team from shooting threes? Do teams playing against the 60s Celtics need to stop shooting mid-range jumpers too because they weren’t in vogue? Should they have to play at an extremely high pace? How far are you going to take this?

[70sFan]

Without three point line Sixers would crush Warriors, but in 1983 we already have three point line. I'm not sure, Philly is almost perfect squad defensively against the Warriors. Durant would struggle a lot against Bobby and Julius, Curry would have to play against Cheeks and Richardson. They were athletic, smart and agressive. Not to mention that Moses would dominate them under the boards. It's silly to believe that frontcourt with KD and Green would fare well against GOAT offensive rebounder and one of the GOAT post scorers ever. Another aspect is that Toney would score on them at will. Warriors always struggled against Kyrie and Toney was the closest thing I've seen to Irving in terms of one on one play.

I don't know. Warriors were probably too good shooting-wise but I can't see short series. Comparing 2017 Cavs to 1983 Sixers is ridiculous, Philly swept better team than the Cavs and almost swept another great team. Warriors played far weaker competition in comparison. Spurs without Kawhi were first rounders at best.

[OdomFan]

Warriors probably win but you're fooling yourself if you think the Sixers don't stand a chance at all. That team has a really nice roster that would definitely give Golden State a run for their money and it be fun to watch. Especially fun to see Dr J going at it against KD.

[JordansBulls]

You do remember that they faced LeBron, Love, and Kyrie in the Finals and nearly swept them right? They won the 3 home games by an average of 17 points. Sixers don’t have anyone near as elite as LeBron.

Sixers swept Magic and Kareem. Lebron has never gone thru a playoffs without being down 3-2 in a series even with HCA including 5 years in a row with it.

So your argument is that the Warriors struggle with really elite players like Kawhi Leonard and Moses Malone, but not less elite players like LeBron James who’s a bum because he once lost a series where he put up 39/8/8 with one of the worst supporting casts to ever make a conference finals? Yeah, you’re totally not trolling at all.

No that wasn't my point. My point was that Lebron is constantly down in a series at least 3-2 every year including 5 years in a row with HCA. So in that sense he doesn't count for this.

[colts19]

I like the Sixer's in this series. Moses would absolutely own the boards could score at will. Also the one piece that people are ignoring is Andrew Toney, He had a short prime and career, but he was probably the best shooting guard in the league during that prime. He is really underrated these days as a matter of fact you never really hear anyone talk about him.

[RoyceDa59]

Warriors are most talented all round.


Need a bit more insightful analysis before accepting this as a vote.

[penbeast0]

3-2 for Sixers unless 70sFan is definitely voting Warriors. I'd like to see some more votes so we can at least match up to a 7 game series.

[pandrade83]

I've said many times that the Warriors are my GOAT Team. The only way I'm picking against them is if some sort of environmental thing gives the other team enough of an advantage to swing it.

The 3 point line is still in play; that obviously doesn't help. Defenders are able to be more physical with GSW which I guess helps Philly - but they are forced to play man to man . . .which does not help Philly at all. Older equipment increases the chance of a Steph injury - but there's nothing in the rules that swings this to Philly - it's a marginal benefit for them in my mind.

Matchup wise - Moses could hurt GSW inside - that's entirely possible. And Bobby Jones is well equipped to handle a number of GSW players, but he can only play for about 1/2 the game effectively and the other half you have guys who wouldn't see the floor in a modern setting squaring off against the Warriors.

There's two factors that could help Philly out - GSW is turnover prone as they get careless with the ball from time to time & forcing TO's is a forte of Philly - but then Philly has their own problems in this area & that could be volatile as both teams are lethal in transition.

The other is the boards. GSW was 29th in DREB% - Philly has Moses. I think Moses has a monster series & keeps it competitive, but I'm going Warriors in 5.

[pandrade83]

I don't understand why this discussion is focused on LeBron. According to the rosters, LeBron was not on the 17 Warriors or the 83 76ers so I don't see how he is even relevant to this match-up. There is no player on the 76ers who even played against LeBron, adding to the irrelevance.

So in this match-up, I am not considering LeBron at all. I see some match-ups that work in the Sixers favor. I don't think anyone can consistently stop KD one-on-one, but if I had to pick someone to try, Bobby Jones is as good a choice as anyone else. Cheeks was also a First Team All-Defense member; he has the tenacity to bother Curry and make him uncomfortable. But the biggest advantage is Moses. One of the few Achilles Heel spots for the Dubs is against strong offensive rebounders and Moses is as dominant there as anyone in history. He is too strong for Draymond and Green would likely be in foul trouble early and often if he had to defend Moses. West and Zaza have more size but I don't see either being able to guard Moses without fouling. Moses is just a very bad match-up for the Warriors. There are a few match-ups that can also favor the Warriors. I like putting Iguodala on Dr. J and I think Klay can post-up Toney. But these don't make up for the difference that Moses provides.

Playing under 1983 conditions also hurts the Warriors. The Spurs attempted more 3-pointers than any other team with 308 (the Sixers as a team only attempted 109!). Even if we assume the Warriors in 83 would attempt even more 3's than the Spurs, let's say 50% more, that would be 462 or 5.6 3's/game. If my math is right, the Dubs would be attempting about 82% fewer 3's than they did in 2017, which takes away a very big part of their strength. You are going from a team that averages 31 3's a game to attempting less than 6 a game!

Taking the 3-point shot largely away from the Warriors and dealing with Moses Malone are just too big of an obstacle to me. To a lesser degree, I don't see how wearing 1983 shoes and having 1983 trainers will somehow reduce the potential for injury to players like Curry, Iguodala, and Livingston. For those reasons, my vote is for the 83 Sixers.

Why are you assuming they are shooting < 6 3's a game?

[Samurai]

I don't understand why this discussion is focused on LeBron. According to the rosters, LeBron was not on the 17 Warriors or the 83 76ers so I don't see how he is even relevant to this match-up. There is no player on the 76ers who even played against LeBron, adding to the irrelevance.

So in this match-up, I am not considering LeBron at all. I see some match-ups that work in the Sixers favor. I don't think anyone can consistently stop KD one-on-one, but if I had to pick someone to try, Bobby Jones is as good a choice as anyone else. Cheeks was also a First Team All-Defense member; he has the tenacity to bother Curry and make him uncomfortable. But the biggest advantage is Moses. One of the few Achilles Heel spots for the Dubs is against strong offensive rebounders and Moses is as dominant there as anyone in history. He is too strong for Draymond and Green would likely be in foul trouble early and often if he had to defend Moses. West and Zaza have more size but I don't see either being able to guard Moses without fouling. Moses is just a very bad match-up for the Warriors. There are a few match-ups that can also favor the Warriors. I like putting Iguodala on Dr. J and I think Klay can post-up Toney. But these don't make up for the difference that Moses provides.

Playing under 1983 conditions also hurts the Warriors. The Spurs attempted more 3-pointers than any other team with 308 (the Sixers as a team only attempted 109!). Even if we assume the Warriors in 83 would attempt even more 3's than the Spurs, let's say 50% more, that would be 462 or 5.6 3's/game. If my math is right, the Dubs would be attempting about 82% fewer 3's than they did in 2017, which takes away a very big part of their strength. You are going from a team that averages 31 3's a game to attempting less than 6 a game!

Taking the 3-point shot largely away from the Warriors and dealing with Moses Malone are just too big of an obstacle to me. To a lesser degree, I don't see how wearing 1983 shoes and having 1983 trainers will somehow reduce the potential for injury to players like Curry, Iguodala, and Livingston. For those reasons, my vote is for the 83 Sixers.

Why are you assuming they are shooting < 6 3's a game?

This was discussed in a previous post along a similar theme; they are playing under the conditions of the older team. I've stated repeatedly that I do not believe in time machines, so if the Warriors were raised to play in 83, all teams shot far less 3's then than now. I am assuming that even in 83, Kerr would recognized that he has gifted shooters and thus I am saying that, even in 83, Kerr would have his team shoot far more 3's than anyone else. For this purpose, I am assuming that the Warriors would be shooting 50% more than any other team actually shot in 83. Likewise, if they were playing under 2017 conditions, and assuming time machines are still science fiction, I would assume the 76ers were born at a time that they were the ages they were in 83 in 2017. In that case, I think they would be shooting more 3's than they did then, but I still think it would be less than the Warriors actually shot. The rules allowed 3's in both eras, but the playing conditions are vastly different.