Free agency and trade ideas: Which wings do we go after this summer?
Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22
Free agency and trade ideas: Which wings do we go after this summer?
- King4Day
- RealGM
- Posts: 13,599
- And1: 9,807
- Joined: Dec 11, 2010
- Location: Pandora
-
Free agency and trade ideas: Which wings do we go after this summer?
New thread!!
"Sometimes, the dragon wins" #RallyTheValley
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: #ValleyBoyz rise up
- Sreister
- Senior
- Posts: 503
- And1: 316
- Joined: Feb 06, 2009
- Location: Iowa
-
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: #ValleyBoyz rise up
Ghost of Kleine wrote:BobbieL wrote:Crives wrote:
Lillards going to be in Portland for life. Even if they never get to the western Conference Finals.
Correct - Lillard is not going anywhere from Portland.
As for the Conley deal - -two years, 30M plus. Would take Tyler Johnson, probably TJ Warren and the Bucks pick. The problem with that trade is two-fold to me 1) his age 2) the depth it would take to get him.
Now if the Suns were to trade for Conley and it didn't cost a player like Bridges or a future FRP - so maybe the above - I would probably be positive about it. But I still think the Suns need to go smaller, maybe a bit more conservative, try to keep players , in this case, not giving up three assets for 1. Especially 31 years old.
Now Thad Young and Darren Collison might be the same age and though to get the cap space it might take moving a player like Warren or Jackson and either Okobo or Melton - at least moving multiple players/picks for two positions of need and not 1 while keeping a valued depth player in Tyler Johnson
Difference of opinion obviously, but again, the dollars in a trade match up perfectly dollar for dollar.
I see no reason why we'd need to add any additional assets. Not that the Milwaukee pick will likely have immense value anyways with the bucks being a top seeded team with no sign of slowing down or potential regression.
So most likely, that pick will possess minimal value and be in the late 20s' range at best. Barring some sort of unforeseen monumental collapse on their part.
But for a monetary comparison:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine .
Mike Conley - 30, 521, 115, For his salary. And
Warren- 11, 750, 000.
TJ Johnson- 19, 356, 932. So there salaries combined equal out to around 31, 106, 932.
So around a difference of a little over a million dollars in excess going out to Memphis. So IFanything they might have to include the returnning value for the 1 million disparity in value.
But a couple of points to consider.
First, Conley is much better given his production and veteran leadership and experience than anything we can find bargain shopping in free agency with what we have to work with apart from a trade.
Second, Conley may be 31 yrs old. But again his contract is only 2 yrs. (One more than Tyler Johnson's ) anyways, So the risk would be minimised. At worst, he could superbly lead our youngsters back into being highly competitive and very possibly, back into the playoffs possibly too.
Third, his defense is still awesome, and his leadership and mentoring, along with his floor general skillset is exactly what is needed for our guys like Melton, Okobo, even Booker to turn the corner and take a big step forward in their progression.
*****But most importantly, it sets us up with a huge chunk of cap space for that imminently rich 2021 free agency, So that we can actually be players and compete for a big name max contract star.
Instead of constantly having to bargain bin shop, or setting for the leftover free agency scraps hoping and keep our fingers crossed that some lower caliber talent will exceed expectations for us.
I mean have you actually seen the list of free agents for 2021 yet???
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/8vkzz5/the_summer_of_2021_will_feature_the_greatest_free/ .
Just a few names on that list are:
Lebron/ Anthony Davis/ Giannis Antekekoupo/ Paul George/ Damian Lillard/ Russel Westbrook/ Rudy Gobert/ Demarr Derozan/ Bradley Beal, etc.
Conley's expiring would give us in excess of 30 million to offer going into that very free agency.
Along with the very real scenario in which we'd be going into that free agency as a much better, more competitive, possibly playoff team, given the effect that Conley could have on our young team with his leadership, poise, and veteran experience.
Now Tyler Johnson and Collison (If he'd even be in our price range anyways) are decent players for sure. Obviously better than the " Nothing " that we've had for a couple of years now.
But Conley's still a much better floor general, and quite honestly in a higher tier in terms of what he'd bring to our team compared to either of those two players obviously.
And if you're still worried about depth, You realize that this same trade would address our need for a point guard, while still maintaining the same amount of cap space that we originally planned to work around for this summer anyways.
So we now can put the bulk of that minuscule 9-12 million ( depending upon further decisions) to address our needs at power forward, maybe adding Aminu( or Young or Gibson) and still have our exception for Beverly possibly.
So this trade would cover multiple angles, while setting us up to contend for a potential franchise cornerstone Veteran max contract player in 2021.
To me personally, that's just a lot more palatable than bargain bin shopping yet again in free agency and continually repeating the same process, But hoping for a different and better outcome.
You're missing the one big thing with him. Availability is the best ability. He's 31 and downhill, and somewhat injury prone. All that makes sense on paper, sure. But that's assuming he comes in and plays 82. That's not a promise and it's something you can't just glance over when you talk about numbers. It's deeper than just "hes better than x and y together".
That's when it comes down to whether the risk is worth it. No one is worried about the money assuming we get rid of Tyler. I think if we knew he would be who we think he is, without getting hurt, then yeah I think it's an easy move to make. But it's not so cut and dry and that's the big 'other side' you ignored in your argument.

Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: #ValleyBoyz rise up
-
- General Manager
- Posts: 9,117
- And1: 7,457
- Joined: Feb 21, 2014
-
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: #ValleyBoyz rise up
Any clips of the full press conference?
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: #ValleyBoyz rise up
- bwgood77
- Global Mod
- Posts: 97,945
- And1: 60,901
- Joined: Feb 06, 2009
- Location: Austin
- Contact:
-
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: #ValleyBoyz rise up
Crives wrote:Any clips of the full press conference?
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1795648&p=74565928#p74565488
When asked how Fascism starts, Bertrand Russell once said:
"First, they fascinate the fools. Then, they muzzle the intelligent."
"First, they fascinate the fools. Then, they muzzle the intelligent."
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: #ValleyBoyz rise up
- Ghost of Kleine
- Master of Tweets
- Posts: 16,296
- And1: 9,025
- Joined: Apr 13, 2012
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: #ValleyBoyz rise up
Sreister wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:BobbieL wrote:
Correct - Lillard is not going anywhere from Portland.
As for the Conley deal - -two years, 30M plus. Would take Tyler Johnson, probably TJ Warren and the Bucks pick. The problem with that trade is two-fold to me 1) his age 2) the depth it would take to get him.
Now if the Suns were to trade for Conley and it didn't cost a player like Bridges or a future FRP - so maybe the above - I would probably be positive about it. But I still think the Suns need to go smaller, maybe a bit more conservative, try to keep players , in this case, not giving up three assets for 1. Especially 31 years old.
Now Thad Young and Darren Collison might be the same age and though to get the cap space it might take moving a player like Warren or Jackson and either Okobo or Melton - at least moving multiple players/picks for two positions of need and not 1 while keeping a valued depth player in Tyler Johnson
Difference of opinion obviously, but again, the dollars in a trade match up perfectly dollar for dollar.
I see no reason why we'd need to add any additional assets. Not that the Milwaukee pick will likely have immense value anyways with the bucks being a top seeded team with no sign of slowing down or potential regression.
So most likely, that pick will possess minimal value and be in the late 20s' range at best. Barring some sort of unforeseen monumental collapse on their part.
But for a monetary comparison:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine .
Mike Conley - 30, 521, 115, For his salary. And
Warren- 11, 750, 000.
TJ Johnson- 19, 356, 932. So there salaries combined equal out to around 31, 106, 932.
So around a difference of a little over a million dollars in excess going out to Memphis. So IFanything they might have to include the returnning value for the 1 million disparity in value.
But a couple of points to consider.
First, Conley is much better given his production and veteran leadership and experience than anything we can find bargain shopping in free agency with what we have to work with apart from a trade.
Second, Conley may be 31 yrs old. But again his contract is only 2 yrs. (One more than Tyler Johnson's ) anyways, So the risk would be minimised. At worst, he could superbly lead our youngsters back into being highly competitive and very possibly, back into the playoffs possibly too.
Third, his defense is still awesome, and his leadership and mentoring, along with his floor general skillset is exactly what is needed for our guys like Melton, Okobo, even Booker to turn the corner and take a big step forward in their progression.
*****But most importantly, it sets us up with a huge chunk of cap space for that imminently rich 2021 free agency, So that we can actually be players and compete for a big name max contract star.
Instead of constantly having to bargain bin shop, or setting for the leftover free agency scraps hoping and keep our fingers crossed that some lower caliber talent will exceed expectations for us.
I mean have you actually seen the list of free agents for 2021 yet???
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/8vkzz5/the_summer_of_2021_will_feature_the_greatest_free/ .
Just a few names on that list are:
Lebron/ Anthony Davis/ Giannis Antekekoupo/ Paul George/ Damian Lillard/ Russel Westbrook/ Rudy Gobert/ Demarr Derozan/ Bradley Beal, etc.
Conley's expiring would give us in excess of 30 million to offer going into that very free agency.
Along with the very real scenario in which we'd be going into that free agency as a much better, more competitive, possibly playoff team, given the effect that Conley could have on our young team with his leadership, poise, and veteran experience.
Now Tyler Johnson and Collison (If he'd even be in our price range anyways) are decent players for sure. Obviously better than the " Nothing " that we've had for a couple of years now.
But Conley's still a much better floor general, and quite honestly in a higher tier in terms of what he'd bring to our team compared to either of those two players obviously.
And if you're still worried about depth, You realize that this same trade would address our need for a point guard, while still maintaining the same amount of cap space that we originally planned to work around for this summer anyways.
So we now can put the bulk of that minuscule 9-12 million ( depending upon further decisions) to address our needs at power forward, maybe adding Aminu( or Young or Gibson) and still have our exception for Beverly possibly.
So this trade would cover multiple angles, while setting us up to contend for a potential franchise cornerstone Veteran max contract player in 2021.
To me personally, that's just a lot more palatable than bargain bin shopping yet again in free agency and continually repeating the same process, But hoping for a different and better outcome.
You're missing the one big thing with him. Availability is the best ability. He's 31 and downhill, and somewhat injury prone. All that makes sense on paper, sure. But that's assuming he comes in and plays 82. That's not a promise and it's something you can't just glance over when you talk about numbers. It's deeper than just "hes better than x and y together".
That's when it comes down to whether the risk is worth it. No one is worried about the money assuming we get rid of Tyler. I think if we knew he would be who we think he is, without getting hurt, then yeah I think it's an easy move to make. But it's not so cut and dry and that's the big 'other side' you ignored in your argument.
Honestly, So what about the risk of injury, Injuries are just part of the game. Any player can get injured at any point of their career, therefore you can say the same of any player.
For example Warren who everyone's clamoring to hold onto at all costs, has had a lengthy injury history and is lucky if he plays about half the season each year.
You just can't predict injuries, but to avoid taking any risks that would allow us to get better, due to fear of the possibility of injury or reinjury is a model for continuual mediocrity.
At some point, You have to take a gamble if you're going to change, progress and improve.
There's no reward without risk. Right now we are at the very bottom of the league, We're a laughingstock, At what point exactly does it become reasonable to take a risk on a proven, productive player so that our team can start improving??
Next, about his age, 31 is too old??? ......have you looked at his production, now compare that to Johnson or even Collison:
Mike Conley
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/conlemi01.html .
21.1 points/ 3.4 rebounds/ 6.4 assists / 2pt% 48.3/ 3pt% 36.4/ Efg% 50.7/ Free throw % 84.5.
Tyler Johnson:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsty01.html .
10.9 points/ 3.9 rebounds/ 2.9 assists/ for his percentages I'll use his career averages, as he played for two different teams: 2pt% 47.7/ 3pt% 36.4/ Efg% 50.4/ Free throw % 77.1
Darren Collison
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/collida01.html .
11.2 points/ 3.1 rebounds/ 6.0 assists/ 2 pt% 49.2 / 3 pt% 40.7/ Efg% 52.7/ Free throw % 83.2.
So fairly similar in statistical percentages with Collison shooting a slightly better clip. But with the points per game edge going to Conley last season. And by the way, they're the same age of 31yrs old too.
I get that Johnson has given us reason to hope for something better, But he's a severely overpaid decent backup guard at best, and in no way a long term solution, Much less capable of seriously leading us back to relevance.
Butmaybe I'm just missing something here, So please help me, Who exactly would you suggest is a better candidate ( that we can realistically obtain) to help guide our team to take the next step, Also with respect to their production, defensive skillset, experience, etc?
Also, Given the cap space that we have to work with which is hardly anything more than the veterans minimum as it currently stands, The odds of us even securing a player even of Collisons' caliber in free agency would be somewhat far fetched.
If you consider that he already made 10 million contractually last year and has improved across the board. But in also considering that Indiana will have significant cap space to resign him IF they so choose.
And since they made it to the playoffs at least, and are a better team than us currently, Why would he come to a lesser team for only equal to lesser money possibly?
Outside of a trade, we'd obviously have to overpay drastically for any decent to good player, which again, we just don't have the money to do.
Also, in what section of my post did I ignore that he has an injury history. I apologize if my context was not clear enough apparently when I said that having his contract for only 2 years (only one more year than Johnson's) would minimize the risk..........
And that the bigger picture is the longterm advantage of the progression of our young players that he would bring, in addition to the biggest return, In that he would afford us over $30 million in expiring cap space at exactly the time when the biggest name veteran star players happen to become available?
I mean, And I hope no ones arguing that Johnson could be the long term answer for us at point guard?
I do actually like Tyler Johnson and his scrappiness. But let's not fool ourselves that he'll be anything more than a career backup guard at best.
He's got heart, But he's a 6-8 million dollar a year player at best. And really should not be tying up 20 million in cap space for us.
And honestly, If I'm choosing between him, and the ability to sign one of Lillard, Beal, Westbrook, Paul George, Giannis, Gobert, or Anthony Davis ( using Conley's massive expiring contract) ??? Then sorry Tyler, But I'll pack your bags for you myself.

Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
- Ghost of Kleine
- Master of Tweets
- Posts: 16,296
- And1: 9,025
- Joined: Apr 13, 2012
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/253498/Pelicans-Have-No-Interest-In-Trading-Jrue-Holiday . Apparently Jrue Holiday isn't going anywhere. Not that I really expected them to have any intentions of trading him as it just makes more sense for them to hold onto him and rebuild around him. 


Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
-
- RealGM
- Posts: 24,538
- And1: 20,241
- Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
If the suns do move Warren I'd keep an eye on Utah. Maybe not a team in the league that could more use his skills and hide his flaws.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!-H.S.T.
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
-
- RealGM
- Posts: 15,352
- And1: 8,996
- Joined: Jun 24, 2009
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
WeekapaugGroove wrote:If the suns do move Warren I'd keep an eye on Utah. Maybe not a team in the league that could more use his skills and hide his flaws.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app
Sign and trade for Rubio type deal? Or just a cash dump
Granted - they may want Conley
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
-
- RealGM
- Posts: 24,538
- And1: 20,241
- Joined: Feb 07, 2010
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
Probably a few different scenarios that could work. Just saying Utah makes a ton of sense as a team to go after Warren. They could desperately use his scoring and gobert helps negate his suspect D.BobbieL wrote:WeekapaugGroove wrote:If the suns do move Warren I'd keep an eye on Utah. Maybe not a team in the league that could more use his skills and hide his flaws.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app
Sign and trade for Rubio type deal? Or just a cash dump
Granted - they may want Conley
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!-H.S.T.
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
-
- Veteran
- Posts: 2,934
- And1: 3,919
- Joined: Jun 16, 2014
- Location: Phoenix
-
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
BobbieL wrote:WeekapaugGroove wrote:If the suns do move Warren I'd keep an eye on Utah. Maybe not a team in the league that could more use his skills and hide his flaws.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app
Sign and trade for Rubio type deal? Or just a cash dump
Granted - they may want Conley
I hoped all thoughts of adding Rubio would be over by this point. Especially with Igor gone. He’s the PG that you’re always looking to upgrade the second he joins your team, and I certainly don’t want to be stuck with that long term. We’ll see what his demand around the league is this summer but I don’t imagine it will be very high at all.
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
-
- RealGM
- Posts: 15,352
- And1: 8,996
- Joined: Jun 24, 2009
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
Blonde wrote:BobbieL wrote:WeekapaugGroove wrote:If the suns do move Warren I'd keep an eye on Utah. Maybe not a team in the league that could more use his skills and hide his flaws.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app
Sign and trade for Rubio type deal? Or just a cash dump
Granted - they may want Conley
I hoped all thoughts of adding Rubio would be over by this point. Especially with Igor gone. He’s the PG that you’re always looking to upgrade the second he joins your team, and I certainly don’t want to be stuck with that long term. We’ll see what his demand around the league is this summer but I don’t imagine it will be very high at all.
I think my new PG Target is Beverley. I wouldn’t mind keeping Warren- he can score
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
-
- Veteran
- Posts: 2,934
- And1: 3,919
- Joined: Jun 16, 2014
- Location: Phoenix
-
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
BobbieL wrote:Blonde wrote:BobbieL wrote:
Sign and trade for Rubio type deal? Or just a cash dump
Granted - they may want Conley
I hoped all thoughts of adding Rubio would be over by this point. Especially with Igor gone. He’s the PG that you’re always looking to upgrade the second he joins your team, and I certainly don’t want to be stuck with that long term. We’ll see what his demand around the league is this summer but I don’t imagine it will be very high at all.
I think my new PG Target is Beverley. I wouldn’t mind keeping Warren- he can score
Yep, his spirit would be infectious on this team and he’d be especially perfect if we drafted Morant or Garland (whom I will have in consideration if we pick 5-7). We need tone setters and culture shifters. Though I think it’s extremely slim that he walks away from the Clippers. There will be strong mutual interest in him staying whether they land a big name free agent or not.
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
-
- RealGM
- Posts: 37,369
- And1: 22,185
- Joined: Feb 17, 2011
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
My top 10 PG wish list (in order of most desirable to least desirable acquisition)
1. Malcolm Brogdon
2. Patrick Beverly
3. Mike Conley
4. Ricky Rubio
5. D’Angelo Russel
6. Ja Morant
7. Corey Joseph
8. Lonzo Ball
9. Kyle Lowry (if Kawhi leaves)
10. Darren Collison
....
927. Terry Rozier
1. Malcolm Brogdon
2. Patrick Beverly
3. Mike Conley
4. Ricky Rubio
5. D’Angelo Russel
6. Ja Morant
7. Corey Joseph
8. Lonzo Ball
9. Kyle Lowry (if Kawhi leaves)
10. Darren Collison
....
927. Terry Rozier
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
-
- RealGM
- Posts: 22,276
- And1: 16,926
- Joined: May 21, 2010
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
Revived wrote:My top 10 PG wish list (in order of most desirable to least desirable acquisition)
1. Malcolm Brogdon
2. Patrick Beverly
3. Mike Conley
4. Ricky Rubio
5. D’Angelo Russel
6. Ja Morant
7. Corey Joseph
8. Lonzo Ball
9. Kyle Lowry (if Kawhi leaves)
10. Darren Collison
....
927. Terry Rozier
I would love to have Brogdon or Russell...but they are restricted so that is not happening.
Ja Morant obviously a great addition if we pick #2 in the draft.
Conley or Lowry if they are open to play for a rebuilding franchise and we do not need to give a lot in a trade.
Ball is another interesting option but his price in a trade is probably too much. He is not sure thing yet.
Beverley, Rubio, Collison and Joseph are on a lesser tier IMO. Joseph not even starter material. All are solid role players but they are not All Stars or potential All stars like any of the other PGs named.
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
-
- RealGM
- Posts: 22,276
- And1: 16,926
- Joined: May 21, 2010
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
Beverley is getting a lot of recognition for his play and defense in the playoffs, and I agree that he is playing well and increasing his value....but the key for the Clippers is Lou Williams.
No Lou and the Warriors are 4-0 already and in the next round. Lou is playing OUT OF HIS MIND, those two wins are all on him.
No Lou and the Warriors are 4-0 already and in the next round. Lou is playing OUT OF HIS MIND, those two wins are all on him.
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
- bigfoot
- Suns Forum Anti-Tank Commander
- Posts: 9,837
- And1: 6,482
- Joined: Sep 16, 2010
-
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
Throwing this out there but wonder if eventual Jones is going to be like Kerr going from a GM to head coaching role.
Played under Carlisle, D'Antoni, McMillan, Spolestra, Blatt, Lue
Played under Carlisle, D'Antoni, McMillan, Spolestra, Blatt, Lue
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: #ValleyBoyz rise up
- Sreister
- Senior
- Posts: 503
- And1: 316
- Joined: Feb 06, 2009
- Location: Iowa
-
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: #ValleyBoyz rise up
Ghost of Kleine wrote:Sreister wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Difference of opinion obviously, but again, the dollars in a trade match up perfectly dollar for dollar.
I see no reason why we'd need to add any additional assets. Not that the Milwaukee pick will likely have immense value anyways with the bucks being a top seeded team with no sign of slowing down or potential regression.
So most likely, that pick will possess minimal value and be in the late 20s' range at best. Barring some sort of unforeseen monumental collapse on their part.
But for a monetary comparison:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine .
Mike Conley - 30, 521, 115, For his salary. And
Warren- 11, 750, 000.
TJ Johnson- 19, 356, 932. So there salaries combined equal out to around 31, 106, 932.
So around a difference of a little over a million dollars in excess going out to Memphis. So IFanything they might have to include the returnning value for the 1 million disparity in value.
But a couple of points to consider.
First, Conley is much better given his production and veteran leadership and experience than anything we can find bargain shopping in free agency with what we have to work with apart from a trade.
Second, Conley may be 31 yrs old. But again his contract is only 2 yrs. (One more than Tyler Johnson's ) anyways, So the risk would be minimised. At worst, he could superbly lead our youngsters back into being highly competitive and very possibly, back into the playoffs possibly too.
Third, his defense is still awesome, and his leadership and mentoring, along with his floor general skillset is exactly what is needed for our guys like Melton, Okobo, even Booker to turn the corner and take a big step forward in their progression.
*****But most importantly, it sets us up with a huge chunk of cap space for that imminently rich 2021 free agency, So that we can actually be players and compete for a big name max contract star.
Instead of constantly having to bargain bin shop, or setting for the leftover free agency scraps hoping and keep our fingers crossed that some lower caliber talent will exceed expectations for us.
I mean have you actually seen the list of free agents for 2021 yet???
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/8vkzz5/the_summer_of_2021_will_feature_the_greatest_free/ .
Just a few names on that list are:
Lebron/ Anthony Davis/ Giannis Antekekoupo/ Paul George/ Damian Lillard/ Russel Westbrook/ Rudy Gobert/ Demarr Derozan/ Bradley Beal, etc.
Conley's expiring would give us in excess of 30 million to offer going into that very free agency.
Along with the very real scenario in which we'd be going into that free agency as a much better, more competitive, possibly playoff team, given the effect that Conley could have on our young team with his leadership, poise, and veteran experience.
Now Tyler Johnson and Collison (If he'd even be in our price range anyways) are decent players for sure. Obviously better than the " Nothing " that we've had for a couple of years now.
But Conley's still a much better floor general, and quite honestly in a higher tier in terms of what he'd bring to our team compared to either of those two players obviously.
And if you're still worried about depth, You realize that this same trade would address our need for a point guard, while still maintaining the same amount of cap space that we originally planned to work around for this summer anyways.
So we now can put the bulk of that minuscule 9-12 million ( depending upon further decisions) to address our needs at power forward, maybe adding Aminu( or Young or Gibson) and still have our exception for Beverly possibly.
So this trade would cover multiple angles, while setting us up to contend for a potential franchise cornerstone Veteran max contract player in 2021.
To me personally, that's just a lot more palatable than bargain bin shopping yet again in free agency and continually repeating the same process, But hoping for a different and better outcome.
You're missing the one big thing with him. Availability is the best ability. He's 31 and downhill, and somewhat injury prone. All that makes sense on paper, sure. But that's assuming he comes in and plays 82. That's not a promise and it's something you can't just glance over when you talk about numbers. It's deeper than just "hes better than x and y together".
That's when it comes down to whether the risk is worth it. No one is worried about the money assuming we get rid of Tyler. I think if we knew he would be who we think he is, without getting hurt, then yeah I think it's an easy move to make. But it's not so cut and dry and that's the big 'other side' you ignored in your argument.
Honestly, So what about the risk of injury, Injuries are just part of the game. Any player can get injured at any point of their career, therefore you can say the same of any player.
For example Warren who everyone's clamoring to hold onto at all costs, has had a lengthy injury history and is lucky if he plays about half the season each year.
You just can't predict injuries, but to avoid taking any risks that would allow us to get better, due to fear of the possibility of injury or reinjury is a model for continuual mediocrity.
At some point, You have to take a gamble if you're going to change, progress and improve.
There's no reward without risk. Right now we are at the very bottom of the league, We're a laughingstock, At what point exactly does it become reasonable to take a risk on a proven, productive player so that our team can start improving??
Next, about his age, 31 is too old??? ......have you looked at his production, now compare that to Johnson or even Collison:
Mike Conley
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/conlemi01.html .
21.1 points/ 3.4 rebounds/ 6.4 assists / 2pt% 48.3/ 3pt% 36.4/ Efg% 50.7/ Free throw % 84.5.
Tyler Johnson:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsty01.html .
10.9 points/ 3.9 rebounds/ 2.9 assists/ for his percentages I'll use his career averages, as he played for two different teams: 2pt% 47.7/ 3pt% 36.4/ Efg% 50.4/ Free throw % 77.1
Darren Collison
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/collida01.html .
11.2 points/ 3.1 rebounds/ 6.0 assists/ 2 pt% 49.2 / 3 pt% 40.7/ Efg% 52.7/ Free throw % 83.2.
So fairly similar in statistical percentages with Collison shooting a slightly better clip. But with the points per game edge going to Conley last season. And by the way, they're the same age of 31yrs old too.
I get that Johnson has given us reason to hope for something better, But he's a severely overpaid decent backup guard at best, and in no way a long term solution, Much less capable of seriously leading us back to relevance.
Butmaybe I'm just missing something here, So please help me, Who exactly would you suggest is a better candidate ( that we can realistically obtain) to help guide our team to take the next step, Also with respect to their production, defensive skillset, experience, etc?
Also, Given the cap space that we have to work with which is hardly anything more than the veterans minimum as it currently stands, The odds of us even securing a player even of Collisons' caliber in free agency would be somewhat far fetched.
If you consider that he already made 10 million contractually last year and has improved across the board. But in also considering that Indiana will have significant cap space to resign him IF they so choose.
And since they made it to the playoffs at least, and are a better team than us currently, Why would he come to a lesser team for only equal to lesser money possibly?
Outside of a trade, we'd obviously have to overpay drastically for any decent to good player, which again, we just don't have the money to do.
Also, in what section of my post did I ignore that he has an injury history. I apologize if my context was not clear enough apparently when I said that having his contract for only 2 years (only one more year than Johnson's) would minimize the risk..........
And that the bigger picture is the longterm advantage of the progression of our young players that he would bring, in addition to the biggest return, In that he would afford us over $30 million in expiring cap space at exactly the time when the biggest name veteran star players happen to become available?
I mean, And I hope no ones arguing that Johnson could be the long term answer for us at point guard?
I do actually like Tyler Johnson and his scrappiness. But let's not fool ourselves that he'll be anything more than a career backup guard at best.
He's got heart, But he's a 6-8 million dollar a year player at best. And really should not be tying up 20 million in cap space for us.
And honestly, If I'm choosing between him, and the ability to sign one of Lillard, Beal, Westbrook, Paul George, Giannis, Gobert, or Anthony Davis ( using Conley's massive expiring contract) ??? Then sorry Tyler, But I'll pack your bags for you myself.
Just ask Portland about injury prone players. If your attitude about "all players can get injured" then I'd not prefer you to pick players for my franchise. There's absolutely stock in whether a player has past injuries, what they are, how often they get them. Don't brush it off like it's meaningless. It's not.
Also, I don't know what my answer would be, and honestly I don't need to. I can absolutely not want a player and not exactly have an alternative. I'm not going to claim I have all the answers, I just know I'd think more than twice about trading a perfectly serviceable 3 man under a great contract for someone that has a nasty injury on their resume.
If he didn't have it, honestly I'd be all for it and really like the idea of a good get PG for us. I'm not discounting anything you say, other than you are minimizing the injury history by lumping it in a "everyone can get hurt" when it's clear that some players are more prone than others, and he has one of the worst injuries you can ever have as an athlete under his belt.
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
-
- RealGM
- Posts: 15,352
- And1: 8,996
- Joined: Jun 24, 2009
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
Revived wrote:My top 10 PG wish list (in order of most desirable to least desirable acquisition)
1. Malcolm Brogdon
2. Patrick Beverly
3. Mike Conley
4. Ricky Rubio
5. D’Angelo Russel
6. Ja Morant
7. Corey Joseph
8. Lonzo Ball
9. Kyle Lowry (if Kawhi leaves)
10. Darren Collison
....
927. Terry Rozier
I like the list. Especially 927!
Interesting to see who is traded - Josh for nothing but basically cap space; or TJ Warren for probably a player of value -- or maybe a three team deal to get cap space.
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
- MathiasPW
- Lead Assistant
- Posts: 4,688
- And1: 2,807
- Joined: Jan 02, 2010
- Location: Brazil
-
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: The Annual Coaching Search Begins
I hope you meant "attainable" rather than desirable.Revived wrote:My top 10 PG wish list (in order of most desirable to least desirable acquisition)
1. Malcolm Brogdon
2. Patrick Beverly
3. Mike Conley
4. Ricky Rubio
5. D’Angelo Russel
6. Ja Morant
7. Corey Joseph
8. Lonzo Ball
9. Kyle Lowry (if Kawhi leaves)
10. Darren Collison
....
927. Terry Rozier
Jrue Holiday should be in that list, nevertheless.

Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: #ValleyBoyz rise up
- Ghost of Kleine
- Master of Tweets
- Posts: 16,296
- And1: 9,025
- Joined: Apr 13, 2012
Re: Season speculation, free agency, and trade ideas: #ValleyBoyz rise up
Sreister wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:Sreister wrote:
You're missing the one big thing with him. Availability is the best ability. He's 31 and downhill, and somewhat injury prone. All that makes sense on paper, sure. But that's assuming he comes in and plays 82. That's not a promise and it's something you can't just glance over when you talk about numbers. It's deeper than just "hes better than x and y together".
That's when it comes down to whether the risk is worth it. No one is worried about the money assuming we get rid of Tyler. I think if we knew he would be who we think he is, without getting hurt, then yeah I think it's an easy move to make. But it's not so cut and dry and that's the big 'other side' you ignored in your argument.
Honestly, So what about the risk of injury, Injuries are just part of the game. Any player can get injured at any point of their career, therefore you can say the same of any player.
For example Warren who everyone's clamoring to hold onto at all costs, has had a lengthy injury history and is lucky if he plays about half the season each year.
You just can't predict injuries, but to avoid taking any risks that would allow us to get better, due to fear of the possibility of injury or reinjury is a model for continuual mediocrity.
At some point, You have to take a gamble if you're going to change, progress and improve.
There's no reward without risk. Right now we are at the very bottom of the league, We're a laughingstock, At what point exactly does it become reasonable to take a risk on a proven, productive player so that our team can start improving??
Next, about his age, 31 is too old??? ......have you looked at his production, now compare that to Johnson or even Collison:
Mike Conley
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/conlemi01.html .
21.1 points/ 3.4 rebounds/ 6.4 assists / 2pt% 48.3/ 3pt% 36.4/ Efg% 50.7/ Free throw % 84.5.
Tyler Johnson:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsty01.html .
10.9 points/ 3.9 rebounds/ 2.9 assists/ for his percentages I'll use his career averages, as he played for two different teams: 2pt% 47.7/ 3pt% 36.4/ Efg% 50.4/ Free throw % 77.1
Darren Collison
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/collida01.html .
11.2 points/ 3.1 rebounds/ 6.0 assists/ 2 pt% 49.2 / 3 pt% 40.7/ Efg% 52.7/ Free throw % 83.2.
So fairly similar in statistical percentages with Collison shooting a slightly better clip. But with the points per game edge going to Conley last season. And by the way, they're the same age of 31yrs old too.
I get that Johnson has given us reason to hope for something better, But he's a severely overpaid decent backup guard at best, and in no way a long term solution, Much less capable of seriously leading us back to relevance.
Butmaybe I'm just missing something here, So please help me, Who exactly would you suggest is a better candidate ( that we can realistically obtain) to help guide our team to take the next step, Also with respect to their production, defensive skillset, experience, etc?
Also, Given the cap space that we have to work with which is hardly anything more than the veterans minimum as it currently stands, The odds of us even securing a player even of Collisons' caliber in free agency would be somewhat far fetched.
If you consider that he already made 10 million contractually last year and has improved across the board. But in also considering that Indiana will have significant cap space to resign him IF they so choose.
And since they made it to the playoffs at least, and are a better team than us currently, Why would he come to a lesser team for only equal to lesser money possibly?
Outside of a trade, we'd obviously have to overpay drastically for any decent to good player, which again, we just don't have the money to do.
Also, in what section of my post did I ignore that he has an injury history. I apologize if my context was not clear enough apparently when I said that having his contract for only 2 years (only one more year than Johnson's) would minimize the risk..........
And that the bigger picture is the longterm advantage of the progression of our young players that he would bring, in addition to the biggest return, In that he would afford us over $30 million in expiring cap space at exactly the time when the biggest name veteran star players happen to become available?
I mean, And I hope no ones arguing that Johnson could be the long term answer for us at point guard?
I do actually like Tyler Johnson and his scrappiness. But let's not fool ourselves that he'll be anything more than a career backup guard at best.
He's got heart, But he's a 6-8 million dollar a year player at best. And really should not be tying up 20 million in cap space for us.
And honestly, If I'm choosing between him, and the ability to sign one of Lillard, Beal, Westbrook, Paul George, Giannis, Gobert, or Anthony Davis ( using Conley's massive expiring contract) ??? Then sorry Tyler, But I'll pack your bags for you myself.
Just ask Portland about injury prone players. If your attitude about "all players can get injured" then I'd not prefer you to pick players for my franchise. There's absolutely stock in whether a player has past injuries, what they are, how often they get them. Don't brush it off like it's meaningless. It's not.
Also, I don't know what my answer would be, and honestly I don't need to. I can absolutely not want a player and not exactly have an alternative. I'm not going to claim I have all the answers, I just know I'd think more than twice about trading a perfectly serviceable 3 man under a great contract for someone that has a nasty injury on their resume.
If he didn't have it, honestly I'd be all for it and really like the idea of a good get PG for us. I'm not discounting anything you say, other than you are minimizing the injury history by lumping it in a "everyone can get hurt" when it's clear that some players are more prone than others, and he has one of the worst injuries you can ever have as an athlete under his belt.
Lol....Funny man, But sure, I'll ask Portland about injured players, after they're out of the playoffs. Which is coincedently where we want to be

But seriously, it's not about having a cavalier attitude towards injuries, Because I don't.And you make a very good point, in that an ACL injury is terrible for sure!!!
But I am also a realist, and in that I realize that in this league, There will be good and productive players that of course have injury histories, etc. it's just an unfortunate reality of the game, and as such needs to of course be considered.
But also to be considered is that every player, situation, and recovery is not the same, for reference:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1177651-10-nba-players-that-suffered-torn-acls-and-recovered-better-than-ever#slide0.
Also Kyle Lowry as another example ( even though I hate his abrasive attitude, and lack of clutch play in the playoffs) has returned from an acl injury and has consistently helped lead his team be competitive and find their way into the postseason, by bring productive and contributing during the regular season.
Which is what I'm pri.primarily hoping for from Conley. And hopefully it would result in our young players advance and take bigs steps in their progression.
So to deny your team the opportunity to improve by the contributions of said player, and what he could bring to your team, is in my opinion, just shortsighted and counterproductive to any scale of improvement.
It's really ok, some people are just willing to take risks, and some never are.....But it's also not like an ACL injury is a career ending death sentence for a player anymore either. As referenced in the link above.
Also, there's a reason why ALL nba franchises have both medical and training staffs on hand. Because in reality, they too realize that injuries to players are just a part of the game, and WILL eventually happen.
I mean exactly how many players are out there currently, without some sort of injury history?
And with respect to Warren, and him being serviceable and on a good contract. When was the last time that he actually played more than half the season.
The point being, he also has an extensive injury history himself and has proven to be consistently injury prone.
So while he might be on a decent contract, How much does that really matter if he can't see the floor and contribute for half the season every year???
His inability to stay healthy and see the floor, at least to me, thus neutralizes the overall value of his contract at the least.
So you're not really losing that much value in the trade as both Conley and Warren are players with injury histories, except that we don't have a glut, or are overloaded with options at the point guard are we?
Also, with respect to your point, IF his injury history is considered to be profound enough taken jnto consideration for the trade, along with the fact that they're looking to move him so that they can rebuild.
Then really, We should( if Jones is halfway competent as a negotiator) be able to acquire him at a bargain. Or even possibly obtain and additional asset in return.
But in acquiring Conley, we are addressing one area of greatest need at point guard with a playoff proven, still highly productive veteran point guard. Who still operates at a high level defensively too.
He also happens to become one of the biggest expiring contracts out there, right when we could seek to acquire an actual game changing max caliber player in 2021 free agency.
Can you really not see the intrisic long term value in that. Or in (Conley's) his ability to greatly mentor our young guards , given his vast experience and skillset??
And fwiw, As far as durability is concerned, The last time I checked, We still happen to have one of, if not the best training and medical staff in the league.
But not to "Brush off" or treat your very valid points about injury history as " meaningless ", because I do get where your coming from. And your concerns are valid obviously. Again ACL injuries are quite serious things.
And again, it's not that I don't agree with you on your position of potential risk. You're of course entitled to your own opinions.
But in this particular case, the overall reward in both the long and short term outweigh the POTENTIAL risks.
Please consider, We are the 2nd worst team in the league, with no other clear avenues of improvement aside from a trade of assets.
That's why I was asking your opinion on other options that might be available to us realistically. Because I just don't see any other realistic alternatives honestly at this point.
We've been absolutely terrible and near unwatchable for close to 10 years now. That's a hard pill for any fan to swallow, Especially one who's stuck it out with this team for over 40 years now.
I'm personally just at the point that I'm willing to take moderate risks, IF it has the possibility of leading us to an overall improvement and a chance at reclaiming our relevance once again as a team.
At this point, I'm just opposed to just sitting by and watching our front office just continuually do lateral moves at best, feed us the repetitive lip service , and then hit the reset button every year.
But back to the point at hand, Remember that the league has any free agency or traded players go through medical evaluations and they have to pass certain standards in order to be signed, or for the trade to be completed. So it's not like we'd be going into this blind and uninformed now is it?
It's not like franchises don't take precautionary measures ok. Even a front office such as ours seemingly devoid of rationale and common sense, would be subject to these precautionary measures for exactly the reasons that you specified.
All in all, If they as the professionals deem such a proposal as being too risky, th hen it obviously won't happen.
I still feel that Warren WILL in fact be traded, that's my personal opinion. And again, it's perfectly fine for us to have differing views and perspectives as well. I still value your input man, as I do everyone's on this platform.
But for now, We'll just have to disagree on acceptable risk scenarios cool.

