Official Speculation Thread ‘19-'20 I: Big decisions on the horizon

[yoyojw17]

I’m disregarding your “proof” because you put anyone with a reliable offensive skill set, with a green light, on this roster and you will get good numbers.

You think anyone can anchor a .500 team / 7th seed and put up 20/10 and be an All-Star...all they need is the volume? What?! Dude I 100% do not agree with that...at ALL...LMAO.

Who said the league doesn’t think he’s worth the contract?

You did: "the majority of the league knows he has hit his peak and likely wouldn’t produce the same numbers with two decent options next to him on a true contender. You attach a big immovable contract anywhere north of 2+ years from now and you have a bad asset."

I don’t think he’s worth retaining situationally for Orlando for various reasons. Possibly even reasons related to the development of the rest of the roster.

If you don't think Vucevic is important to the development of Gordon and Isaac you haven't been paying attention. Weltman, Hammond and Clifford, have all stated it recently and throughout the year. Josh Robbins recently laid out in an article how the loss of Vucevic would negatively impact those two specifically...and in my opinion Fultz as well as he too will desperately need floor spacing and a stabilizing offensive focal point.

Do I need to list the numerous examples of Centers on bad or devaluing contracts to you? I’ll save you the time and mine.

Do I need to point out how you are contradicting yourself again? Why are you saying that our starting C is going to get overpaid, if this common knowledge exists? Make up your mind.

42-40 team in an extremely weak conference that almost missed the playoffs with a bunch of other mediocre teams. Orlando is one of the worst teams offensively.

So are you saying that what Aaron Gordon, Isaac and Ross etc did this year etc doesn't count? because FYI they played vs those same "weak" teams.

You can give me every comparison in the world related to Centers and it won’t mean anything. That’s the point.

The only point I see from there is that you are refusing to acknowledge a massive amount of data to keep your bias afloat.

That’s not how Boston “got Kyrie” or how Toronto “got Kawhi”. They held their teams for ransom and agreed to be traded there to the, now hilarious, possible detriment of Boston and Toronto when they lose those players because of the risk they took. Milwaukee is a different example and was built around a late lotto pick and free agency.

Yes it absolutely is. Those teams stockpiled and built up their asset values SPECIFICALLY for those circumstances to occur. Kawhi wanted to go LA, but Spurs chose the team that gave them the assets they wanted back. Toronto was prepared for that situation. Same with Cleveland and Boston situation.

When things start working when putting together a puzzle.... you don't simply let a piece go. For ME.... vuc is a part of the puzzle that makes other pieces come together better. He's not super start level that makes everyone's life easier... but he makes a huge difference for the dynamic of the team. if Fultz works out... that changes the whole complexion of the team and what everyone does and how the game is played... both on defense and on offense. Imagine.... him running the pick n roll with Vuc.... that would prove to be a nightmare. I digressed.... the gravity that vuc creates give opportunities to others. I hope he is retained.

[ezzzp]

You don’t think Vuc benefitted immensely from his situation in Orlando??? Interesting.

I said nothing about how the league views him. GMs make bad decisions all the time. How I view him doesn’t matter in terms of what he will be paid obviously. Teams like OKC already regret giving a player like Steven Adams his ridiculous contract despite what fans think of him. Do you think WeHam are impervious to handing someone a bad contract?

No i dont think he’s important to Isaacs and Gordon’s development other than carrying the nonexistent offense that WeHam neglected to address. I don’t care what GM speak they choose to use.

What massive amount of data? Vuc put up good numbers as a primary option to a team with no options? Cool. Inconsistent Ross off the bench was the next go-to. Are you refuting that?

You must not be paying attention to the fact that star players recently have a huge say in where they choose to go. Their value is significantly altered by hand picking destinations of their choosing. Bad argument.

Let’s just say we disagree and you think Vuc at 28 is a good player to keep around until he’s 30+ and we pick late in the lotto for the next 3-4 years.

You don't think that if Vucevic is paired with a legitimate #1 option in the back court that doesn't make him even more dangerous?

Those were your words that said the league views him at peak and you've stated over and over how the league no longer values C's...yet somehow you've convinced yourself that he will get overpaid and you are basing your entire argument on that speculation.

That you don't think he's important to the core's development reveals a lot to me about your understanding of bb systems, spacing and player development. There is a reason Weltman just stated resigning Vucevic is a priority. He didn't say that about Ross.

Being a primary option on a team with no options (and horrendous shooting) only makes his numbers even more impressive. Its way more difficult to stay effective when the entire opposing defense is game planning to stop Vucevic and sagging off of 2-3 players to stop him.

I know what pre-free agency (as its being called) is and how that is trending. Teams still control the exchange, regardless of what the player wants. That's why AD isn't in LA, and neither is Kawhi.

[VFX]

You don’t think Vuc benefitted immensely from his situation in Orlando??? Interesting.

I said nothing about how the league views him. GMs make bad decisions all the time. How I view him doesn’t matter in terms of what he will be paid obviously. Teams like OKC already regret giving a player like Steven Adams his ridiculous contract despite what fans think of him. Do you think WeHam are impervious to handing someone a bad contract?

No i dont think he’s important to Isaacs and Gordon’s development other than carrying the nonexistent offense that WeHam neglected to address. I don’t care what GM speak they choose to use.

What massive amount of data? Vuc put up good numbers as a primary option to a team with no options? Cool. Inconsistent Ross off the bench was the next go-to. Are you refuting that?

You must not be paying attention to the fact that star players recently have a huge say in where they choose to go. Their value is significantly altered by hand picking destinations of their choosing. Bad argument.

Let’s just say we disagree and you think Vuc at 28 is a good player to keep around until he’s 30+ and we pick late in the lotto for the next 3-4 years.

You don't think that if Vucevic is paired with a legitimate #1 option in the back court that doesn't make him even more dangerous?

Those were your words that said the league views him at peak and you've stated over and over how the league no longer values C's...yet somehow you've convinced yourself that he will get overpaid and you are basing your entire argument on that speculation.

That you don't think he's important to the core's development reveals a lot to me about your understanding of bb systems, spacing and player development. There is a reason Weltman just stated resigning Vucevic is a priority. He didn't say that about Ross.

Being a primary option on a team with no options (and horrendous shooting) only makes his numbers even more impressive. Its way more difficult to stay effective when the entire opposing defense is game planning to stop Vucevic and sagging off of 2-3 players to stop him.

I know what pre-free agency (as its being called) is and how that is trending. Teams still control the exchange, regardless of what the player wants. That's why AD isn't in LA, and neither is Kawhi.

I said the league views him at his peak (like most 28 year old players), and I said Centers ARE not as valuable.

No, he makes us play inside out, which is the opposite of successful teams currently, especially while we lack shooting and proper spacing. Talk to me again about offensive systems.

We obviously disagree. Moving on.

[Def Swami]

Zach Lowe spitballing a S&T or in-season trade of D'Angelo Russell for Aaron Gordon. Wouldn't mind a deal like that. Also, lol at the "Jeff Weltman/John Hammond player type" not being a player that can dribble, pass, and shoot at a high level.

Maybe the ballsiest move on the board is Brooklyn signing-and-trading Russell -- or re-signing him to trade him at the first chance -- at the peak of his value. There would be some PR hit in dealing away the first All-Star nurtured under the Sean Marks/Kenny Atkinson regime. The trade market for Russell might not be as strong as you'd think.

Phoenix still needs a point guard, but a Russell-Devin Booker backcourt amounts to long-term defensive suicide. The Suns ending up in position to draft Ja Morant would make the issue moot before trade season. I've long been intrigued by a trade centered on Russell and Aaron Gordon, but Russell doesn't quite fit the Jeff Weltman/John Hammond player type.

Indiana makes some sense; Russell and Oladipo could split ballhandling duties, and Oladipo can defend both guard positions -- allowing more leeway in hiding Russell. It's unclear what Indiana would send back, especially since Brooklyn already has a young center in Jarrett Allen. Other teams will come out of free agency with holes at point guard.

It's easy to dismiss the idea of Brooklyn trading Russell. The Nets probably won't. But smart teams consider everything, and plot out dozens of scenarios. The Nets are smart. If you think they haven't had an internal spitballing session about Russell's trade value, you're kidding yourself.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/zachlowe26597367/nba-playoff-winners-losers-russ-dame-warriors

[ezzzp]

I went and compared [b]Aaron Gordon's most recent season (age 23) to Vuc's two seasons before this (age 26, 27) in basketball-reference.

What's your logic for using those two specific season's for Vucevic? Everyone regressed under Vogel - especially Vucevic. Why not compare 14-15 or 15-16 which were better season's for Vucevic and when he was also in All-Star discussion? 15-16 was Vucevic's 5th season - seems like a better sample size to compare.

[SOUL]

Why did you choose those two specific season's for Vucevic? Everyone regressed under Vogel especially Vucevic. Why not compare 14-15 or 15-16 who were better season's for Vucevic and when he was also in All-Star discussion?

It's not meant to be a comparison of "better seasons" or else I would have compared it to this season's Vuc, which is obviously the best version of him. Also in those earlier Vuc seasons, everybody was in agreeance that he should be the 1st option because he was younger and we had nobody threatening as a better offensive option. There were not many debates going on at that time.

Those exact seasons were used because in those in those specific Vucevic seasons, which are comparable in the sense that they're similar/slightly worse than Gordon's current season, there were people arguing that Vuc did not need to be better on offense and that he still needed to be 1st option yet are criticizing the hell out of a player who, impact wise, is the same as Vuc was the previous 2 years.

So either Vuc wasn't as good as they thought the previous few years when they were arguing that he didn't need to improve much + should still be the 1st option, or it's the issue of just not liking Gordon.

Again, people keep missing the point that it's just as damning to Gordon as it is to Vucevic, yet the people who like Vucevic are the ones taking issue with the post for some reason?

[SOUL]

Basically, my beef isn't with people wanting this version of Vuc to be a 1st option (even though there's still issue with that, but it's at least debatable), my issue is with people pretending like the old version of Vuc was enough to get it done or "fine" as first option and pretending that AG would be something massively different than Vuc from previous years. In terms of how the team would be (not very good) and his overall impact.

[ezzzp]

It's not meant to be...

Ok, I just thought it would be a good comparison to see AG's 5th season vs Vucevic's 5th season (15-16). Oladipo was pretty ball dominant and had high USG so he drew a lot of defensive attention away from Vucevic that season...similar to how Vucevic drew defensive attention away from AG this year.

[SOUL]

It's not meant to be...

Ok, I just thought it would be a good comparison to see AG's 5th season vs Vucevic's 5th season (15-16). Oladipo was pretty ball dominant and had high USG so he drew a lot of defensive attention away from Vucevic that season...similar to how Vucevic drew defensive attention away from AG this year.

Yeah, it was just pointed at a few individuals regarding specific comments rather than trying to make a exact comparison lol.

It'll be interesting to see how we approach this offseason. I think the FA have a few different plans depending on if we re-sign Vuc or Ross or not.

[ezzzp]

I said the league views him at his peak (like most 28 year old players), and I said Centers ARE not as valuable.

Yet you are saying that he IS going to get a massive contract. If he's not valuable to the league then why are you insisting that he is going to get overpaid?

No, he makes us play inside out, which is the opposite of successful teams currently, especially while we lack shooting and proper spacing. Talk to me again about offensive systems.

LMAO inside/out is the most common system in NBA and utilized by some of the best offenses in nba...paint penetration/touches to get high efficiency shots at rim or kick outs to 3PT shooters are fundamental of Morey Ball and juggernaut offensive teams.

We obviously disagree. Moving on.

We absolutely disagree.

[VFX]

I said the league views him at his peak (like most 28 year old players), and I said Centers ARE not as valuable.

Yet you are saying that he IS going to get a massive contract. If he's not valuable to the league then why are you insisting that he is going to get overpaid?

No, he makes us play inside out, which is the opposite of successful teams currently, especially while we lack shooting and proper spacing. Talk to me again about offensive systems.

LMAO inside/out is the most common system in NBA and utilized by some of the best offenses in nba...paint penetration/touches to get high efficiency shots at rim or kick outs to 3PT shooters are fundamental of Morey Ball and juggernaut offensive teams.

We obviously disagree. Moving on.

We absolutely disagree.

Again this is the same league that gives players like Biyombo, Mozgov, Adams, Drummond, etc big contracts. GMs make bad decisions. Not sure what you want me to say.

Yet we lack the players to make that system work. That’s the point you seem to be constantly missing. Glad you find that amusing.

Yep. Moving on.

[ezzzp]

Again this is the same league that gives players like Biyombo, Mozgov, Adams, Drummond, etc big contracts. GMs make bad decisions. Not sure what you want me to say.

The Biyombo/Mozgov/Drummond contracts all came when the league experienced a historic salary cap jump, from 69m to 94m. It was a very unique situation - that is NOT what the cap situation is this summer. There are not 20 teams with at least one max salary slot (many with 2+) like they did that summer.

In addition, those deals also came before the devaluation of the C position, so no the context is absolutely not the same.

Adams is a vital piece to OKC's success, its Westbrook's contract that's the problem for their cap.

Yet we lack the players to make that system work. That’s the point you seem to be constantly missing. Glad you find that amusing.

That's not on Vucevic. Its not his fault that Gordon and Isaac can't shoot or break down set defenses with any consistency yet, or that Fournier had his worst 3pt shooting year ever. Vucevic more than carried his load within that system, its up to the young core to improve and Fournier to get back to his prior shooting form.

[ezzzp]

Yeah, it was just pointed at a few individuals regarding specific comments rather than trying to make a exact comparison lol.

It'll be interesting to see how we approach this offseason. I think the FA have a few different plans depending on if we re-sign Vuc or Ross or not.

Right on.

Here is the comparison of Vucevic and Gordon's 5th seasons: https://imgur.com/msbTLq1

[OrlandO]

Why did you choose those two specific season's for Vucevic? Everyone regressed under Vogel especially Vucevic. Why not compare 14-15 or 15-16 who were better season's for Vucevic and when he was also in All-Star discussion?

It's not meant to be a comparison of "better seasons" or else I would have compared it to this season's Vuc, which is obviously the best version of him. Also in those earlier Vuc seasons, everybody was in agreeance that he should be the 1st option because he was younger and we had nobody threatening as a better offensive option. There were not many debates going on at that time.

Those exact seasons were used because in those in those specific Vucevic seasons, which are comparable in the sense that they're similar/slightly worse than Gordon's current season, there were people arguing that Vuc did not need to be better on offense and that he still needed to be 1st option yet are criticizing the hell out of a player who, impact wise, is the same as Vuc was the previous 2 years.

So either Vuc wasn't as good as they thought the previous few years when they were arguing that he didn't need to improve much + should still be the 1st option, or it's the issue of just not liking Gordon.

Again, people keep missing the point that it's just as damning to Gordon as it is to Vucevic, yet the people who like Vucevic are the ones taking issue with the post for some reason?

Your comparison is flawed. Gordon is in a much better position playing in a 3rd option role while sharing the floor with a lower-tier all-star in a proper system with a good coach. Vuc was sabotaged in those vogel years... we downgraded the team, tried to replace/demote him, had players caring more about getting theirs than team success, and put an idiot coach in charge. Some of us knew the real Vuc was much better than that because we saw it for years before he was sabotaged. The alternative in the vogel era was rolling with freaking Biyombo and letting Gordon play worse in a role he obviously lacked skills to play even on a bad team. Nobody was "fine" with putting Vuc in that situation... it's just what had to happen. I've been saying for years it's going to be a damn shame if we never see Vuc play with an above average PG or one player clearly better than him. Some of us don't want to see AG, who is even less equipped to play first option at this point in his career, put in a crap situation that makes him struggle and sets the team back.

[zaymon]

I 100% agree with Ezzzp and OrlandO. We complain that we dont have modern offense with Vucevic as a first option. WHO else on this roster could possibly shoulder the load of a first option with 3 below average 3 point shooters in the starting lineup? So the remedy of our offense is to get rid of one of the best passing and shooting big man in the league or provide him with above average pick and roll parter who could create his own offense on the perimeter? If Fultz get healthy you want him to play pick and roll with Vucevic or Bamba or maybe Birch? Vucevic with his skill set is all star first option and CONTENDER LEVEL second or third option. I will stand by it. Let Weltman do his contract magic.

[yoyojw17]

I 100% agree with Ezzzp and OrlandO. We complain that we dont have modern offense with Vucevic as a first option. WHO else on this roster could possibly shoulder the load of a first option with 3 below average 3 point shooters in the starting lineup? So the remedy of our offense is to get rid of one of the best passing and shooting big man in the league or provide him with above average pick and roll parter who could create his own offense on the perimeter? If Fultz get healthy you want him to play pick and roll with Vucevic or Bamba or maybe Birch? Vucevic with his skill set is all star first option and CONTENDER LEVEL second or third option. I will stand by it. Let Weltman do his contract magic.

The entire modern basketball just gets me a little. I understand it's the sexy thing to do... and now big are irrelevant. There is not only one model to win a game. It was just popularized even more because the Warriors make it look so easy. Trying to duplicate that model makes no sense cuz no team will have that level of talent and those skills to truly make it run as efficiently as possible. As long as we find a way that we can defend them and they can't defend us.... then IT's AN OPTION!

Vuc is a load for most teams (just not Toronto haha) and has shown leaps in defense.... so why not make him part of the puzzle?

as I and others have eluded to, if Fulltz is healthy, and only the magic internals will know this best so everyone stop speculating about it because of youtube videos and webmd searches, they will make preparations accordingly. Mortgaging players in order to get kemba walker while knowing "oh snap... fultz is coming around nicely" would be a huge mistake... now we have great talent at pg and reduced talent everywhere else.

I'm going to trust this group that have put together and taught these kids a more winning version of basketball. And a large part of that culture and experience lies in vuc. If he leaves cuz he wants to go somewhere... fine.... but i'm not just standing there holding the door open like many seem to imply.

[fendilim]

There is a lot of player bias going on lately from both sides, IMO.

I went and compared Aaron Gordon's most recent season (age 23) to Vuc's two seasons before this (age 26, 27) in basketball-reference. We obviously know what Vuc turned into this year on offense, but nobody expected the year he had. Hence why we drafted Bamba when we saw Vuc basically just turn into an average offensive option as he got older the last few years, exactly what Gordon is right now.

This wasn't that long ago. I remember getting in pages and pages and pages of debate with the very same posters who have issue with Gordon prospectively being the "first option" or a default first option (and putting my two cents out there, I don't he should be that either, that's not his role). But if we're going to debate the "merits" of first options, AG has much of an argument as Vuc did a few years ago.

This year's AG vs 2016-2017 Vuc:

AG had better ORTG, True Shooting, less usage, more offensive win shares, more defensive win shares, more total win shares, better VORP, basically any advanced metric had Gordon with a better year than Vuc's 2016-2017 year.

This year's AG vs 2017-2018 Vuc:

AG had better ORTG, True Shooting, less usage, more offensive win shares, more defensive win shares, more total win shares, the same VORP. Again, most advanced metrics have Gordon with a better year. Vuc took slightly more categories from him, so it's probably about a wash when it all comes down to it, but objectively, Gordon has a great argument for still having a better year.

I post this because on one side, the prospects of AG completely revamping his offensive game and becoming a player he never really was expected to be on offense is a long shot. If you're arguing for AG running the show, you're basically arguing for Vuc's offense the last few years with a higher tempo. So it's hypocritical in a sense if you were against Vuc. I won't doubt that just like Vuc, he can add pieces to his game, become more efficient and eventually one year be as offensively great as Vuc was this singular year, but if I didn't expect that out of Vuc, it's hard for me to think Gordon can just replicate that as well. It's hard to do. Not impossible, but you need to be in the right environment and have the faith of the team behind you.

On the other side, some posters who are arguing until they're blue in the face about how AG will never be first option material, can't lead a team, can't do this, can't do that, when he literally had similar if not better stats than Vuc the past few years. Similar offeseason arguments I was having with people in this thread about how Vuc NEEDED to add a better three point shot and get to the FT line for us to excuse the usage that we're giving him, and there was massive pushback on that by posters here about how he "doesn't need to do that" and his offense is "fine". The same posters in this thread against AG. That to me, shows either people need to eat crow and admit that Vuc before this year was extremely replaceable and average, or that there is an innate bias against Gordon (or for Vuc) because you need to take a logical leap to paint one guy's offense as "fine" and the other's as "needing a lot of work".

And again, I didn't want Vuc to be first option 2 years ago and don't want Gordon to be now either. I'll bite the bullet in a "down" year like I did for Vuc with Gordon, but realistically, no way.

So yeah, it's just weird seeing opinions flipping depending on who the player is. Are any sides willing to eat crow?

Gordon had a better year because he had a role that fits his game. Gordon is not a first option material and none of what he showed this year can really support that. This is arguably Gordon's best year. And its not a surprise his efficiency and advanced metrics have gone up, when he tried to limit his game to his strengths.

These are the numbers on Gordon's shot this year VS the seasons when you compared him to Vuc
Gordon this year VS 16-17 VUC


Gordon this year VS VUC 17-18


Ideally, you would want your 1st options to be able to make different kind of shots, and Gordon really don't have that game.

Not to mention the game type is different because Vuc has is more of an inside player, but his pullup is still comparable to Gordon's best year. Even his offdribble game.

This is Fournier's numbers compared to Gordon


Its not a secret that Fournier had his worst shooting year this year. And yet, Fournier's percentages are comparable to Gordon's most efficient year.

Gordon has shown limited progress on those categories from year 1 to year 5. Not saying he will never improve but I don't think its even realistic at this point now that its 5 seasons in.



To me, these numbers just shows that Gordon isn't really a 1st option material and its simply not even arguable to consider especially if Gordon's most efficient year is only comparable to Fournier this year.

[tiderulz]

Again this is the same league that gives players like Biyombo, Mozgov, Adams, Drummond, etc big contracts. GMs make bad decisions. Not sure what you want me to say.

The Biyombo/Mozgov/Drummond contracts all came when the league experienced a historic salary cap jump, from 69m to 94m. It was a very unique situation - that is NOT what the cap situation is this summer. There are not 20 teams with at least one max salary slot (many with 2+) like they did that summer.

In addition, those deals also came before the devaluation of the C position, so no the context is absolutely not the same.

Adams is a vital piece to OKC's success, its Westbrook's contract that's the problem for their cap.

Yet we lack the players to make that system work. That’s the point you seem to be constantly missing. Glad you find that amusing.

That's not on Vucevic. Its not his fault that Gordon and Isaac can't shoot or break down set defenses with any consistency yet, or that Fournier had his worst 3pt shooting year ever. Vucevic more than carried his load within that system, its up to the young core to improve and Fournier to get back to his prior shooting form.

Adams is a piece of OKC's success, but his contract is also bad for what he provides.

[nymets1]

I wonder if everyone on here thinks about that trade idea of De'angelo Russell? He had very little success on the Lakers and than eventually blossomed on the Nets. My gut tells me if Russell came here that we see more of Russell when he was on the Lakers than on the Nets. He fits in with the Nets, I don't think he can have the same success in Orlando.

[VFX]

Again this is the same league that gives players like Biyombo, Mozgov, Adams, Drummond, etc big contracts. GMs make bad decisions. Not sure what you want me to say.

The Biyombo/Mozgov/Drummond contracts all came when the league experienced a historic salary cap jump, from 69m to 94m. It was a very unique situation - that is NOT what the cap situation is this summer. There are not 20 teams with at least one max salary slot (many with 2+) like they did that summer.

In addition, those deals also came before the devaluation of the C position, so no the context is absolutely not the same.

Adams is a vital piece to OKC's success, its Westbrook's contract that's the problem for their cap.

Yet we lack the players to make that system work. That’s the point you seem to be constantly missing. Glad you find that amusing.

That's not on Vucevic. Its not his fault that Gordon and Isaac can't shoot or break down set defenses with any consistency yet, or that Fournier had his worst 3pt shooting year ever. Vucevic more than carried his load within that system, its up to the young core to improve and Fournier to get back to his prior shooting form.

Well, Detroit is completely in neutral with Blake and Drummond’s contracts. Washington has been burdened by Mahinmis for years. Adams, while important to OKC, neither stretches the floor or provides the value needed from his contract because he’s overpriced and they could use help in other areas.

Here we have come full circle to the crux of the argument. Is it on Vuc that the system doesn’t work offensively? No. Does that mean we have to continue to commit to him because he’s the only option? Also no.

The point is that we lack the talent that will be hard to come by. If you are in the middle of the pack you are looking at late lottery we currently have #16. We are likely still going to be overpaying in free agency or not even in the radar for stars. Lastly, trades are based in value on return. Who would that be on this roster? Players that would bring back the most value are Isaac and AG. Those are the ways to improve the team from this current position.

Are you saying you would rather trade either of them and continue to build around Vuc? Or are you saying you would rather resign Ross and Vuc, and roll out the same lineup, knowing it still doesn’t work offensively.