Statistical proof of LeBron’s HORRIFIC defense

[JN61]

Also he's a plus defensive rebounder for his position which is inarguably the most important part of defense.

I can't believe a comment that has this inane sentence in it got seven And-1s.

That puts Westbrook as elite defender, doesn't it?

[benhillboy]

Erik Spoelstra would shat his pants from laughter reading this thread.

[frica]

Also he's a plus defensive rebounder for his position which is inarguably the most important part of defense.

I can't believe a comment that has this inane sentence in it got seven And-1s.

That puts Westbrook as elite defender, doesn't it?

Westbrook's defence is pretty good though.

[Heej]

I can't believe a comment that has this inane sentence in it got seven And-1s.

If you think that comment is inane your bball IQ is lower than I've given you credit for all the years that I've seen your low effort posts here.

https://www.numberfire.com/nba/news/3564/the-correlation-between-team-stats-and-offensive-and-defensive-efficiency-part-4-rebounds

The only basic box score metric that might serve as a better litmus test for your defensive performance that night is 3PFGM. And even then that one over the course of a season isn't that reliable an indicator. Rebounds are why centers still matter in a perimeter league, doubly so in a switchy one such as hours. But I suppose I can't expect you to reason through that, can I?

Rim protection and shot contests are why centers still matter. Can you please tell me what the Top 3-ranked defenses this year, the Bucks, the Jazz and the Pacers have in common? That's right, it's rim protection.

Most important parts of defense are rim protection, guarding the pick 'n' roll and ability to defend in space. Defensive rebounding is nowhere near being the most important part of defense. Is Andre Drummond one of the best defenders in the game? Is DeMarcus Cousins? Is Enes Kanter? Is Karl-Anthony Towns?

You are embarrassing yourself. Spare me the "low effort posts throughout the years" drivel by the way, stick to the conversation.

Ahahahaha it really amazes me how ignorant you can make yourself look by listing those players. Almost as if you decided to Cherry-pick various rebounding leaders and not bothering to look up the stat that actually matters, which is Team rebounding percentage when they're on the floor. Here's a hint, every one of those players' teams rebound worse when they're on the floor with the exception of Enes Kanter who makes a paltry 0.2% difference.

Which is funny to me because one of the biggest talking points of the Blazers-Thunder series was how Portland would defend without Nurkic and Kanter's rebounding on both ends became a revelation. Thanks for furthering my point if anything.

You should be embarrassed yourself for naming 3 different aspects of defense and trying to pass them off as all being the most important lol. Rim protection has become less important if anything in a league that's taking more and more 3 pointers every year. It's almost as if that scenario plays out every postseason when drop back bigs like Gobert, Lopez, and Turner get cooked in PnR coverages vs contending teams.

Individually none of the 3 things you listed matter more than securing a defensive rebound and ending a possession, because it's well known that possession coming after offensive rebounds are among the fattiest in the game on a PPP basis. Especially because more 3s being taken are leading to longer and more frequent misses. This isn't to say other aspects of defense don't matter, but at the end of the day finishing out a defensive possession with a rebound matters more than any other play you can make on that end.

Please tell me more about how I'm embarrassing myself, I'd love to hear it

[SlowPaced]

If you think that comment is inane your bball IQ is lower than I've given you credit for all the years that I've seen your low effort posts here.

https://www.numberfire.com/nba/news/3564/the-correlation-between-team-stats-and-offensive-and-defensive-efficiency-part-4-rebounds

The only basic box score metric that might serve as a better litmus test for your defensive performance that night is 3PFGM. And even then that one over the course of a season isn't that reliable an indicator. Rebounds are why centers still matter in a perimeter league, doubly so in a switchy one such as hours. But I suppose I can't expect you to reason through that, can I?

Rim protection and shot contests are why centers still matter. Can you please tell me what the Top 3-ranked defenses this year, the Bucks, the Jazz and the Pacers have in common? That's right, it's rim protection.

Most important parts of defense are rim protection, guarding the pick 'n' roll and ability to defend in space. Defensive rebounding is nowhere near being the most important part of defense. Is Andre Drummond one of the best defenders in the game? Is DeMarcus Cousins? Is Enes Kanter? Is Karl-Anthony Towns?

You are embarrassing yourself. Spare me the "low effort posts throughout the years" drivel by the way, stick to the conversation.

Ahahahaha it really amazes me how ignorant you can make yourself look by listing those players. Almost as if you decided to Cherry-pick various rebounding leaders and not bothering to look up the stat that actually matters, which is Team rebounding percentage when they're on the floor. Here's a hint, every one of those players' teams rebound worse when they're on the floor with the exception of Enes Kanter who makes a paltry 0.2% difference.

Which is funny to me because one of the biggest talking points of the Blazers-Thunder series was how Portland would defend without Nurkic and Kanter's rebounding on both ends became a revelation. Thanks for furthering my point if anything.

You should be embarrassed yourself for naming 3 different aspects of defense and trying to pass them off as all being the most important lol. Rim protection has become less important if anything in a league that's taking more and more 3 pointers every year. It's almost as if that scenario plays out every postseason when drop back bigs like Gobert, Lopez, and Turner get cooked in PnR coverages vs contending teams.

Individually none of the 3 things you listed matter more than securing a defensive rebound and ending a possession, because it's well known that possession coming after offensive rebounds are among the fattiest in the game on a PPP basis. Especially because more 3s being taken are leading to longer and more frequent misses. This isn't to say other aspects of defense don't matter, but at the end of the day finishing out a defensive possession with a rebound matters more than any other play you can make on that end.

Please tell me more about how I'm embarrassing myself, I'd love to hear it

I didn't cherry pick anything, the guys I listed are among the best rebounders in the game. Not sure where you got your data from, because On/Off data for DREB% on BBall-Ref and NBA.com have different numbers. If the data contradicts your assertion, then it's your assertion that is flawed. Defensive rebounding prowess correlates with defensive impact only when said player is also a very good rim protector. Such is the case with Embiid, Gobert, Whiteside, Nurkic. Not the case with Drummond, Towns, Westbrook and Kanter. That seems to suggest that the impactful defensive attribute in this equation is not defensive rebounding but rim protection.

It's bizarre that you're pointing to defensive rebounding as a decisive factor in the outcome of the POR-OKC series, when the teams' DRPG and DREB% were very close to even despite the OKC obviously missing more shots.

Your assertion is not backed up by any impact data available. Rim protection, ability to defend the pick 'n' roll and ability to defend in space all have strong correlations with defensive impact with next to no exceptions, not the case with defensive rebounding prowess. Many excellent defensive rebounders show up unfavorably in defensive impact data. You clearly also can't read properly, seeing as you've asserted that I combined three different aspects into one when I haven't done any such thing. All three of those attributes are more impactful defensively compared to defensive rebounding.

It's also funny how you used an argument to put down the impact of rim protection, but failed to address the opposite side of the argument, which makes a case for the ability to defend in space as being the most impactful defensive attribute in today's game. That's definitely far more arguable than the downright embarrassing take that defensive rebounding is the most impactful attribute in today's game. You're talking about an era where most teams don't even crash the offensive glass in order to get back on defense. The era argument works in the opposite direction you think it does, defensive rebounding has never been as devalued as it is right now.

[Joshyjess]

LeBron??? OH yeah, isn't he that old guy who plays for the Lakers? Didn't he used to get a lot of media attention, but was replaced by that guy with the beard? Are people still taking about this Lebron dude?

[Flash17]

LeBron??? OH yeah, isn't he that old guy who plays for the Lakers? Didn't he used to get a lot of media attention, but was replaced by that guy with the beard? Are people still taking about this Lebron dude?

Well this is awkward because uhh... you're talking about that dude right now.

[Joshyjess]

LeBron??? OH yeah, isn't he that old guy who plays for the Lakers? Didn't he used to get a lot of media attention, but was replaced by that guy with the beard? Are people still taking about this Lebron dude?

Well this is awkward because uhh... you're talking about that dude right now.

Well, I am asking about him in the context of this post, but that's not really the same as "talking about him. It would be like someone bringing up an old subject, and you asking why they are bringing it up - that doesn't mean that you are "talking" about that old subject, rather you are simply questioning their "talking" about it.

[ATRAIN53]

I like the stats-

It's no secret that LeBron stopped playing all word defense after he left MIA. He was 1st team All Defense his years there. He had other stars that could score. But when he went back to CLE he had to carry the full offensive load. So as it's been pointed out by other experts - he kinda learned to 'rest' on D most possessions and put in effort when needed.

He was done trying to chase down MJ's legacy as a killer defender and he just wanted to win the title for CLE. He'd played @ 40,000 NBA minutes by this time. MJ finished with 41k.

and honestly when I think of LeBron - the #1 play I'm always going to remember?

His DEFENSIVE chase down block of Iggy!

and you know who I miss in these DEFENSE OPTIONAL NBA playoffs right now?
were 1 game into the semis....

I could really go for LeBron taking it to the hole and shredding these horrible defenses we're seeing.

[TDotJon]

Kyle Kuzma shoved him to play defense. therefore he is the worst defender ever.

[Father Time]

Not his stats that bother me more his toxic body language

[Galloisdaman]

Lebron has been great defensively so far in these playoffs. I have not seen a single guy score on him.

[Bucketz_McGee]

It is hard to quantify what his actual behavior is on the court with numbers. It is decently accepted that he plays very lazy defense most of the time.

You also forgot to mention that last season he was 321st in league for defensive win shares. As reference, Lonzo Ball was 37th in the league.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[Joshyjess]

Lebron has been great defensively so far in these playoffs. I have not seen a single guy score on him.

He also hasn't missed a shot yet!

[tyguy]

Kudos to OP for the sneaky title to draw in maximum readership.

They were all salivating to just come in and bash LeBron. Then when the numbers said what they didn't want them to say they still bashed him and became anti math.

[tyguy]

It's not Lebron being horrific at defense.

It's him being nonexistent at times.

Kuzma pushing him to guard someone should never happen.

We love to focus on single possessions in a game where a players plays thousands of possessions through the course of a season.

[Heej]

Rim protection and shot contests are why centers still matter. Can you please tell me what the Top 3-ranked defenses this year, the Bucks, the Jazz and the Pacers have in common? That's right, it's rim protection.

Most important parts of defense are rim protection, guarding the pick 'n' roll and ability to defend in space. Defensive rebounding is nowhere near being the most important part of defense. Is Andre Drummond one of the best defenders in the game? Is DeMarcus Cousins? Is Enes Kanter? Is Karl-Anthony Towns?

You are embarrassing yourself. Spare me the "low effort posts throughout the years" drivel by the way, stick to the conversation.

Ahahahaha it really amazes me how ignorant you can make yourself look by listing those players. Almost as if you decided to Cherry-pick various rebounding leaders and not bothering to look up the stat that actually matters, which is Team rebounding percentage when they're on the floor. Here's a hint, every one of those players' teams rebound worse when they're on the floor with the exception of Enes Kanter who makes a paltry 0.2% difference.

Which is funny to me because one of the biggest talking points of the Blazers-Thunder series was how Portland would defend without Nurkic and Kanter's rebounding on both ends became a revelation. Thanks for furthering my point if anything.

You should be embarrassed yourself for naming 3 different aspects of defense and trying to pass them off as all being the most important lol. Rim protection has become less important if anything in a league that's taking more and more 3 pointers every year. It's almost as if that scenario plays out every postseason when drop back bigs like Gobert, Lopez, and Turner get cooked in PnR coverages vs contending teams.

Individually none of the 3 things you listed matter more than securing a defensive rebound and ending a possession, because it's well known that possession coming after offensive rebounds are among the fattiest in the game on a PPP basis. Especially because more 3s being taken are leading to longer and more frequent misses. This isn't to say other aspects of defense don't matter, but at the end of the day finishing out a defensive possession with a rebound matters more than any other play you can make on that end.

Please tell me more about how I'm embarrassing myself, I'd love to hear it

I didn't cherry pick anything, the guys I listed are among the best rebounders in the game. Not sure where you got your data from, because On/Off data for DREB% on BBall-Ref and NBA.com have different numbers. If the data contradicts your assertion, then it's your assertion that is flawed. Defensive rebounding prowess correlates with defensive impact only when said player is also a very good rim protector. Such is the case with Embiid, Gobert, Whiteside, Nurkic. Not the case with Drummond, Towns, Westbrook and Kanter. That seems to suggest that the impactful defensive attribute in this equation is not defensive rebounding but rim protection.

It's bizarre that you're pointing to defensive rebounding as a decisive factor in the outcome of the POR-OKC series, when the teams' DRPG and DREB% were very close to even despite the OKC obviously missing more shots.

Your assertion is not backed up by any impact data available. Rim protection, ability to defend the pick 'n' roll and ability to defend in space all have strong correlations with defensive impact with next to no exceptions, not the case with defensive rebounding prowess. Many excellent defensive rebounders show up unfavorably in defensive impact data. You clearly also can't read properly, seeing as you've asserted that I combined three different aspects into one when I haven't done any such thing. All three of those attributes are more impactful defensively compared to defensive rebounding.

It's also funny how you used an argument to put down the impact of rim protection, but failed to address the opposite side of the argument, which makes a case for the ability to defend in space as being the most impactful defensive attribute in today's game. That's definitely far more arguable than the downright embarrassing take that defensive rebounding is the most impactful attribute in today's game. You're talking about an era where most teams don't even crash the offensive glass in order to get back on defense. The era argument works in the opposite direction you think it does, defensive rebounding has never been as devalued as it is right now.

Very bold move to tell me the data contradicts my assertion when I literally showed you why your point was idiotic after properly contextualizing the numbers of players you put forth.

And where did you learn to read, if you're trying to tell me I said defensive rebounding was the primary factor in the OKC-POR series. If you bothered to re-read what I said, rebounding was the primary reason Kanter was able to stay on the floor despite everyone's best predictions, which correlated with Portland's defensive rebounding being slightly better with him on.

It's funny to me how you say my assertion isn't backed up by any data when in my first response to you I linked a well-reasoned article on the correlation between defensive rebounding and winning/defense. But I'm sure in your haste to get in a cherrypicked reply you didn't actually bother to look at it. It's ironic to me that the person who has nothing to back up his points beyond platitudes would say that to me thus far in this discussion.

You do realize all 3 aspects of what you pointed out all have myriad examples of bigs who excel at that specific aspect and still come up short defensively due to failing in other aspects? Guys like WCS or Whiteside are still intimidating around the rim but frequently give up putback opportunities, dump offs, or fail in PnR coverage (particularly against high level opponents with spread offenses). Guys like Julius Randle are great at switching and provide little else on defense.

Maybe, just maybe, the fact that there's so many more examples of good rebounders being worse on defense shows that it matters more to help you stay in the league. That couldn't be it though could it? It's not like coaches will give more playing time to a guy that sucks at defending the rim but still get boards, vs a guy that can jump out to contest every shot but gives up constant offensive rebounds and fails to box out. Oh wait, that's exactly what happens in the NBA lmao.

I also love how you once again clearly ignored my initial response in your haste to get in a cherrypicked reply when you glossed over me saying the only thing that probably comes close nowadays is defending 3s and preventing teams from getting them off, which is why long rim protectors are starting to become overrated. So where exactly did I completely dismiss the idea of defending in space?

Also, let's not play the "teams don't even crash offensive boards so rebounds don't matter" game when it cuts both ways and teams put a greater emphasis nowadays on grabbing defensive rebounds and initiating a fast break to get open looks.

You accuse me of not reading what you said but clearly you've glossed over what I've responded to you since the beginning. You try to tell me the data doesn't back my assertion when I've actually provided you data that does back my assertion all you've given me is cherrypicked data that I dismantled and little else beyond that besides baseless platitudes.

You haven't even come close to mounting a defensible argument for your position that rebounding doesn't matter much anymore, nor have you managed to produce any data to support your utterly moronic claim that rim protection matters more than rebounding (I'll at least agree to disagree on defending 3s since I think it's fairly close nowadays). So what exactly is the point of this discussion? All this for an inane comment

[freethedevil]

Read on Twitter

lebron sagging off a sub 30% 3 point shooter is bad?

[freethedevil]

You should be embarrassed yourself for naming 3 different aspects of defense and trying to pass them off as all being the most important lol. Rim protection has become less important if anything in a league that's taking more and more 3 pointers every year. It's almost as if that scenario plays out every postseason when drop back bigs like Gobert, Lopez, and Turner get cooked in PnR coverages vs contending teams.
:

Rudy Gobert completely shut down the rockets in game 3-5 of the playoffs. Wtf are you talking about?

[spikeslovechild]

Those metrics are invalid. Sure he’s still good when he actually guards someone, but he is only actually guarding someone about 1/5 possessions, and all the stats you cherry picked don’t account for that.

It also doesn't account for the fact the first half the season he wasn't guarding anyone and in the 2nd half he got shut down so his stats are heavily skewed because of Lonzo.

There is one stat that kind of illustrates this if you take a look at his pre and post allstar numbers. BBREF has his DTR pre allstar 108. Post 112.